Zerthex
Smash Cadet
What changes, if any, should Snake receive?
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Snake in PM 3.5 discussion
- Thread starter Zerthex
- Start date
RolexPachinko
Smash Rookie
His opponent spawns with a C4 attached.
Risky
Smash Ace
Grenades explode on impact.
internetmovieguy
Smash Apprentice
Give him and even manlier Alt costume!
ParadoxZ
Smash Apprentice
Make his recovery a bit shorter but have a larger hitbox so he isnt a sitting duck, have grenades explode on impact, and reduce the knockback of c4 while increasing the damage of it slightly. Im a snake main and it sickens me to be at 140 against a G&W and when he is at zero do d-tilt grab, d-throw, tech read tranq, stick, up throw up air and detonate, and it kills (PCP please) Now this will hurt snake significantly and i feel that one of his weakest games is forward approach. so maybe make nair have a longer range and have the two hits have a vaccuum into the third like other nairs do? something like that where snake can approach more easily and not have to resort to dacus or bair all the time since bair is awful on shield and really laggy and dacus can only do so much by itself. I'm probably pretty off on this and sorry its long but i was having this discussion thursday and just wanted to add in my opinion.
Poopdragon
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Aug 18, 2014
- Messages
- 1
There should be an alternate costume or something where snake has his Nikita, I feel cheated having it taken away when it was so useful. I like the tranq as well, which is why they should both stay by having separate costume setups. this way, no one is punished
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
His Uthrow has set knockback and can CG the entire cast infinitely.
lob
Smash Cadet
tranqs work on opponents in the air. i dont know much about brawl but iirc the nikita was usually used for edge guarding on recovering opponents and i think being able to make people sleep midair would be a nice inbetween of the nikita and current tranq, as well as making it more versatile.
i agree so hard. i secondary snake and i LOVE finishing with the c4 and i dont want it to go anywhere, but its a bit too powerful as it is. that nair and nade suggestion would make approaching as snake a little more bearable too.
internetmovieguy
Smash Apprentice
Make the box spike.
Solharath
[ZTD] CEO
Snake should have a unique animation when an opponent steals his box off him. Also no set timer on box taunt.
lob
Smash Cadet
snakes recovery isnt that great. like, its not that bad to get him on the ledge, but its so telegraphed and is basically an invitation to be KOd. id like it if the cypher was more maneuverable and had larger hitboxes, but all around did less damage and vanished a biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit faster.. (really reluctant to say it should be any shorter than it already is)
internetmovieguy
Smash Apprentice
lob
Smash Cadet
oh right.. in that case i dont think shortening or enlongating the amount of time his cypher is out would make much a difference anyway
I think it's important that some characters are edgeguardable. Snake is, it's one of his weaknesses and has a lot to do with his overall meta. Because of his weaknesses Snake is far more balanced than other high tiers. PM needs more balanced characters with strong areas and weak areas. If you ask me it's a good thing his recovery is averagish. I wouldn't try to add / subtract too much from a character that has already existing well known weaknesses on the edge even if he also has a good recovery in terms of distance.
internetmovieguy
Smash Apprentice
It's important that ALL characters are edge-guard-able*.
Being able to tranq people in midair would give Snake an absurd amount of gimping power. Recovering anywhere above the stage? Sorry, you're dead. If anything, it should put the enemy into a tumble. That means it doesn't have excessive gimping capability offstage, but the effects of the tranq dart aren't completely negated by an airborne opponent. Onstage, even if they're in the air, you can tech chase them and use it as a set up. That way it's not totally useless when they're in the air.
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
Let it be similar to a weaker version of Squirtle's Bubble then. But I feel like that is unneeded Snake is fine how he is as long as everyone else gets balanced out and isn't ****ing broken.
lob
Smash Cadet
yeah that sounds a lot better than my suggestion imo
0mart
Smash Apprentice
Snake is good as he is now... he needs to be more explored but overall I think he doesn´t need a buff/nerf right now.
´´or we can make that his Big Boss Costume use the Tranq, and the Solid Snake use the nikita ´´ lol
´´or we can make that his Big Boss Costume use the Tranq, and the Solid Snake use the nikita ´´ lol
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Why do people think that of all characters, Snake (and in particular his Cypher) needs to be nerfed? His recovery is a free gimp. I'm not even sure if half of you are actually dead serious about a recovery nerf of you're trolling. Snake's Cypher is better as an offensive move than a recovery move lol. The hitbox isn't absolutely fantastic, but its literally just big enough that it is a powerful OoS option, platform pressure tool and combo extender. But come on guys, enough with the "lets make Snake's recovery even suckier and nerf him here and there a lil' bit" talk. When we have things like
running RAMPANT, Snake is suddenly incredibly balanced. I speak as a Mewtwo main, Snake secondary.
Snake really doesn't need any nerfs. If anything I'd buff his neutral game. Increase the distance of DACUS (its kinda pathetically short compared to characters like Lucas who already have insane mobility and neutral game options and then they get this DACUS that goes over half the length of FD) and the tranquilizer dart moves slightly faster through the air.
running RAMPANT, Snake is suddenly incredibly balanced. I speak as a Mewtwo main, Snake secondary.Snake really doesn't need any nerfs. If anything I'd buff his neutral game. Increase the distance of DACUS (its kinda pathetically short compared to characters like Lucas who already have insane mobility and neutral game options and then they get this DACUS that goes over half the length of FD) and the tranquilizer dart moves slightly faster through the air.
^ I agree that Snake doesn't really need any nerfs. However he doesn't need buffs either. Rather than buffing characters we should nerf all the offenders which you just listed, and then see how that impacts the overall meta. Even outside of the characters you listed PM has a lot of very strong characters, I see no real good argument for buffing anyone outside of a handful of characters. There are already tons of autocombos and easy options in PM. Not all characters need to be super obviously awesome.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Like Mewtwo. We now know he was broken, but say before May, everyone was still hating on Diddy Kong, Mario and Pit lol
Arrow (Kyle)
Smash Apprentice
Too bad, Snake is getting nerfed in 3.5 and it isn't gonna be pretty. We're getting hit hard cause PMBR hates us </3
MomBomb
Smash Rookie
What changes for him have been confirmed?
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
1. Are you in the PMBR/DT? No? Ok.
Thats where you first went wrong.
2. Is Snake actually broken? A character that is mid tier king on the sole fact of this punish game (and thats literally it, Snake is meh in pretty much all other areas)? Broken? No?
Thats the second place where you went wrong.
When did the PMBR start hating on SNAKE of all things? Oh wait they don't? Ok.
You went wrong in three places. Thats literally a shame.
Professor Pro
Smash Legend
I'm PMDT and I don't hate Snake
Snake could receive literally no changes in 3.5 and I would be perfectly happy.
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Hey guise!
Because people liked Nikita and people like Tranquilizer.
Tap Side+B for Nikita.
Tap Side+B+A for tranq. Trang has no remote properties so this is easy.
It makes sense, since Snake has a bunch of mix up properties with his moves. His mortar range can be increased with charge and it can land in different spots. You can fake C4 sticks. You can fake tranq shots. Ftilt one instead of the full combo. Dash attack or DACUS approach. Tons of ways to use grenades. The landmines that you can constantly switch places.
Because people liked Nikita and people like Tranquilizer.
Tap Side+B for Nikita.
Tap Side+B+A for tranq. Trang has no remote properties so this is easy.
It makes sense, since Snake has a bunch of mix up properties with his moves. His mortar range can be increased with charge and it can land in different spots. You can fake C4 sticks. You can fake tranq shots. Ftilt one instead of the full combo. Dash attack or DACUS approach. Tons of ways to use grenades. The landmines that you can constantly switch places.
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BND
Smash Apprentice
- Joined
- Jul 13, 2014
- Messages
- 174
That'd be giving Snake too many options. 3.0 traded off part of Snake's ability to edgeguard and control the neutral game with projectiles (Not sure if this bit's correct, since I didn't play Snake seriously until the tranq came out) for a better techchase and punish game, and to remove a tool widely considered non-constructive to PM in general due to its damage output, knockback, and ease of use. If we brought the Nikita back, we should probably be removing the tranq, since the tranq wasn't meant to augment Snake's gameplay; it was meant to change it a little, hopefully for the better. Putting both in would just make Snake overpowered, since there's nothing really wrong with him right now (aside from Snake mains complaining about poor approach and people unaccustomed to playing against Snake complaining about Snake's punish game).
There'd also be a problem with actual implementation, since from what I've heard the tranq dart directly replaces the Nikita missile (which explains why tranq dart gets deflected by other projectiles and well-timed attacks)
Personally for 3.5 I'd like the option of having the ability to out 2 grenades, a grenade with a long timer and a grenade with a short timer, but everything seems to be fine as it is right now (and having the ability to do so would probably make Snake more camp-based than necessary).
victinivcreate1
Banned via Warnings
Personally I think the best thing for Snake is to be kept the same as he is in 3.02. There is nothing wrong with 3 0 Snake at all. He is mid tier king. So its not like he's broken.
MudkipUniverse
Smash Ace
I think Snake could use his share of small nerfs.
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Snake is fine where he is. He just gets beat up on by a lot of the PM top-tiers and good projectiles.
cisyphus
Smash Ace
Yeah honestly Snake has awful matchups with a third of the cast, how can anybody think he needs nerfing?
C4 stick hitbox is perfectly sized (it misses if you aren't precise) and only kills with a proper launcher because you can shield/roll/spot dodge it on reaction. As far as power, it KOs Puff at 74% at the lowest and Captain Falcon at 135% at the highest (with no DI on Final Destination—the most neutral ceiling) and isn't even his strongest KO option: an uncharged mine will KO earlier 9/10 times—the lest 1/10 is a tie, which can be comboed into just as easily, let alone forcing/tricking an opponent into one; on top of that, fully charged mines KO Puff at 44%, so there's that. The C4 is a really good option, but it's far from overpowered and far from the best Snake has.
Cypher is a hugely punishable for recovery (you can still get meteored/spiked by a well-spaced aerial and you're vulnerable on the sides because of Snake's slow aerials) and his poor aerial mobility makes it very predictable for edgeguarding, forcing him to recover high, a place no one really wants to be. It is also his only good OoS option because all of his aerials are slow (the next best is dair in 7 frames [4 frame jumpsquat+frame 3 hitbox], tied with shield grab), so taking that away takes away Snake's ability to break out of pressure and reestablish the neutral game—the crux of his metagame. Changing Cypher at all ruins Snake's game.
Grenades and maybe aerials are the only things I'd like to see changed.For grenades, the ability to have two out at a time OR an explosion on impact would be great, of which only the second is reasonable because two grenades gives you so much more stage control it'd be unreal to try to approach Snake. Aerials could do with a little more shield stun, given Snake literally has no good options on shield (all of them have frame disadvantage iirc), which of course forces his defensive playstyle.
C4 stick hitbox is perfectly sized (it misses if you aren't precise) and only kills with a proper launcher because you can shield/roll/spot dodge it on reaction. As far as power, it KOs Puff at 74% at the lowest and Captain Falcon at 135% at the highest (with no DI on Final Destination—the most neutral ceiling) and isn't even his strongest KO option: an uncharged mine will KO earlier 9/10 times—the lest 1/10 is a tie, which can be comboed into just as easily, let alone forcing/tricking an opponent into one; on top of that, fully charged mines KO Puff at 44%, so there's that
. The C4 is a really good option, but it's far from overpowered and far from the best Snake has. Cypher is a hugely punishable for recovery (you can still get meteored/spiked by a well-spaced aerial and you're vulnerable on the sides because of Snake's slow aerials) and his poor aerial mobility makes it very predictable for edgeguarding, forcing him to recover high, a place no one really wants to be. It is also his only good OoS option because all of his aerials are slow (the next best is dair in 7 frames [4 frame jumpsquat+frame 3 hitbox], tied with shield grab), so taking that away takes away Snake's ability to break out of pressure and reestablish the neutral game—the crux of his metagame. Changing Cypher at all ruins Snake's game.
Grenades and maybe aerials are the only things I'd like to see changed.For grenades, the ability to have two out at a time OR an explosion on impact would be great, of which only the second is reasonable because two grenades gives you so much more stage control it'd be unreal to try to approach Snake. Aerials could do with a little more shield stun, given Snake literally has no good options on shield (all of them have frame disadvantage iirc), which of course forces his defensive playstyle.