Snake 4.0... What changes do you want from 3.5?

[BND]

@ cisyphus A snake playing campy enough, with controller vibration on, on certain stages, and abusing his chainthrows hard enough will have a high probability of winning against a Sheik. I'd say the matchup's theoretically slightly in Snake's favor, though played normally it shifts towards Sheik somewhat heavily. Won't specify how, but it should be semi-obvious.

On a side note, when playing vs. Sheik, it's not a matter of DIing her mixups, it's more of a matter of reacting to them. Each throw takes 17 frames to execute, meaning that Sheik inherently has some advantage when it comes to mixups. (Most overheads in fighting games are 20+ frames, I think). There's also the issue that Beanwolf brought up earlier: even if Snake DIs right, more often than not Sheik can cover his tech. (Admittedly, haven't tried missing a tech, though, as stated earlier, that doesn't feel right)

@ LupinX The bit I don't like about Prof's playstyle is that I have no idea what he's trying to do. He chainthrows on platforms semi-frequently, which implies he wants to win. I don't criticize people for wanting to win: As a Falcon main in Melee, I hate every part of how Sheik is designed and have a penchant for disliking people who play Sheik, but in general I respect the players to some extent. Yet, there are bits he doesn't optimize. For example, jab reset after ftilt is completely unnecessary and even suboptimal against the vast majority of the cast, yet he still does it. He throws people into mines despite the fact that he hasn't converted on pretty much any of them: see Leffen vs Prof today. He could've even up thrown -> ftilted/jab comboed Leffen into the mine, which does more damage (Probably over 40%), but instead he only got ~20% off of the mine, which is a valuable commodity since you can use it as a penultimate finisher.

There are a lot of other things that Prof wastes with his playstyle, and his tech skill in particular appears to be wasted on a character like Snake. I picked up Snake because:
1. Testosterone,
2. He's supposedly setup based and there was a fighting game I used to play; I wanted to play the setup based character but accidentally picked the zoning character. Still played a rushdown zoner, funnily enough
3. Potential for disrespect, which is always great in friendlies.
4. Supposedly a complex character that gives room for creativity and development.

On the other hand, from what I've seen from an interview Prof picked up Snake off of a dare from someone else. In any case, I feel as if seeing Prof playing a more technically demanding (Note: technically demanding != technically consistent. Snake has lots of things you need to be consistent with, but there's a cap with the amount of tech skill you actually need with him) character would be more interesting overall.

tl;dr it feels as if Prof's not sandbagging but wasting everything anyways: his technical ability, his setups, his opportunities, what he could be doing with his tech skill, and probably more.

 

[cisyphus]

Prof definitely plays for the swag. You can tell that by how he converts his throws and how often he fairs. That said, he has great ideas and the basic structure of his gameplay is worth studying.

 

[Professor Pro]

@ cisyphus A snake playing campy enough, with controller vibration on, on certain stages, and abusing his chainthrows hard enough will have a high probability of winning against a Sheik. I'd say the matchup's theoretically slightly in Snake's favor, though played normally it shifts towards Sheik somewhat heavily. Won't specify how, but it should be semi-obvious.

On a side note, when playing vs. Sheik, it's not a matter of DIing her mixups, it's more of a matter of reacting to them. Each throw takes 17 frames to execute, meaning that Sheik inherently has some advantage when it comes to mixups. (Most overheads in fighting games are 20+ frames, I think). There's also the issue that Beanwolf brought up earlier: even if Snake DIs right, more often than not Sheik can cover his tech. (Admittedly, haven't tried missing a tech, though, as stated earlier, that doesn't feel right)

@ LupinX The bit I don't like about Prof's playstyle is that I have no idea what he's trying to do. He chainthrows on platforms semi-frequently, which implies he wants to win. I don't criticize people for wanting to win: As a Falcon main in Melee, I hate every part of how Sheik is designed and have a penchant for disliking people who play Sheik, but in general I respect the players to some extent. Yet, there are bits he doesn't optimize. For example, jab reset after ftilt is completely unnecessary and even suboptimal against the vast majority of the cast, yet he still does it. He throws people into mines despite the fact that he hasn't converted on pretty much any of them: see Leffen vs Prof today. He could've even up thrown -> ftilted/jab comboed Leffen into the mine, which does more damage (Probably over 40%), but instead he only got ~20% off of the mine, which is a valuable commodity since you can use it as a penultimate finisher.

There are a lot of other things that Prof wastes with his playstyle, and his tech skill in particular appears to be wasted on a character like Snake. I picked up Snake because:
1. Testosterone,
2. He's supposedly setup based and there was a fighting game I used to play; I wanted to play the setup based character but accidentally picked the zoning character. Still played a rushdown zoner, funnily enough
3. Potential for disrespect, which is always great in friendlies.
4. Supposedly a complex character that gives room for creativity and development.

On the other hand, from what I've seen from an interview Prof picked up Snake off of a dare from someone else. In any case, I feel as if seeing Prof playing a more technically demanding (Note: technically demanding != technically consistent. Snake has lots of things you need to be consistent with, but there's a cap with the amount of tech skill you actually need with him) character would be more interesting overall.

tl;dr it feels as if Prof's not sandbagging but wasting everything anyways: his technical ability, his setups, his opportunities, what he could be doing with his tech skill, and probably more.

How is jab reset after F-Tilt > Jab Reset unnecessary lol??????
You get a FREE tranq from it which leads to a free stick, a stick which they usually can't punish because they are asleep?
I'm confused as to how you could find F-Tilt > Jab Reset unnecessary....do you have a better punish which is consistent?

As for my tech skill, it's only that good because I play Fox in Melee, and I'm not going to play another character just because I'm technical as if that's the only strength I have as a player. That doesn't make sense, every top level player is technical, because you have to be, you don't then default yourself to a character which has a high tech skill output when tech skill is a necessity anyway

You are free to not like my playstyle, but at least imo you should offer something to his gameplay while saying that, so I look forward to seeing where you will push the character.

 

[cisyphus]

I didn't catch the jab reset comment initially but yeah, BND's convinced that people can just SDI the jab and get away free (which is kinda true but there's mixups to punish that). However, if you want the vast majority of Snakes that use f-tilt jab resets, none of the opponents manage to SDI the jab. They usually just try to tech the f-tilt, and if it's done in a situation where they can't tech (like immediately after a missed tech) then they're stuck. It's a bit of a read, but a relatively safe one with a huge potential reward. However, Prof shouldn't ignore BND's other comments, as they're rather good observations as well. Mostly I'm talking about Prof's throw combos at low percents failing to convert effectively.

That being said, Snake is an incredibly technical character and I don't think it's accurate at all to say that prof's Fox-level tech ceiling is "wasted" on Snake. You can call Snake a setup or zoning oriented character, but if you watch Prof's Snake, he doesn't really play him like that for the majority of the game (although he shifts over when that his percentage starts to really climb). Especially watching sets vs Jolteon, who knows all of Prof's tricks and traps, Prof has to go really aggro and it still works. Prof knows how to chaingrab with Snake, which requires every single variety of grab (standing, JC, boost, dash, pivot, and turnaround). That's tech in and of itself. Prof's b-reverses are fantastic and always properly executed. His combos out of Cypher are brilliant as well. His ledge game with Snake is inspiring to someone that can't seem to avoid forward smashes half the time. I can go on about this point, but I think if you can't appreciate Prof's style you really aren't paying attention to the full character of his Snake.

The other thing about tech skill—and this is what every fox main I've ever talked to or listened to talk about this says—is that it's not just about pressing buttons but about pressing the right buttons. I think more often than not Prof's micro-game with Snake is excellent, but he's still feeling out the macro elements like optimal combo trees and all the rest. I've observed that a lot of Snakes have collections of sequences that they trust a lot in, which is why I specifically have sought to avoid depending on a lot of those kinds of things. This is where the zoning aspects come in, but it's also where thinking about the optimal tools for a given situation comes in. That's why I've made combo trees and posted them here, and that's why I've outlined certain combo starters like u-throw ->u-tilt true combo percents—to find the roots of those combo trees. That's why I spent a good two months camping top platform against floaties until I got consistent at tech chasing them up there. It's why I'm only now starting to use those swag Prof combos like f-tilt jab reset tranq and c4 into fair spike edgeguards and the like, because I've tried to train myself to identify when those options are appropriate and powerful.

Sorry for the long post, but really you should be learning constantly with the character, and with PM in general. This game is extremely new and extremely fresh in comparison to Melee and it's required to have the sort of mentality that every single player is bringing something new to the table, and it's your responsibility to see that with unveiled eyes. I went a long time playing relatively poorly because I wanted to be original and do things on my own. That changed immediately when I started watching videos in our community thread, and when I started watching Prof's stream. I can watch Sago play and see so many poor choices that he makes, but I still see interesting tactics like full jump down airs to cover tech options on platforms. They may work as well as my choices, or they may not work as well (I prefer nairs, but hey); they're interesting and different and I have to be pensive about its validity.

 

[BND]

How is jab reset after F-Tilt > Jab Reset unnecessary lol??????
You get a FREE tranq from it which leads to a free stick, a stick which they usually can't punish because they are asleep?
I'm confused as to how you could find F-Tilt > Jab Reset unnecessary....do you have a better punish which is consistent?

As for my tech skill, it's only that good because I play Fox in Melee, and I'm not going to play another character just because I'm technical as if that's the only strength I have as a player. That doesn't make sense, every top level player is technical, because you have to be, you don't then default yourself to a character which has a high tech skill output when tech skill is a necessity anyway

You are free to not like my playstyle, but at least imo you should offer something to his gameplay while saying that, so I look forward to seeing where you will push the character.

If you start the tranq on one of the frames close to where the opponent hits the ground, it covers techroll back, missed tech, and tech in place for most characters (There are edge cases like Sheik and Zelda, where their models are thin enough that tranqs easily fly over missed techs, as well as Fox/Falco/other fastfallers, who hit the ground before you can actually act). I believe it's also relatively safe on whiff in the case of a tech-behind, since tranqs last for 54ish frames and techs last for roughly 40 IIRC. Even if you botch the timing techroll away is usually vulnerable enough that you can cover at least 2 options.

You also can't SDI to avoid a tranq hit, while 2 SDI inputs up (diagonally up works too) for a jab works and results in the opponent being upright. If jab reset is the only option being used, I'd imagine that people can SDI up for a punish half the time (My own SDI is a bit inconsistent since I'm not 100% sure of how the mechanics work, but if I can do it 50% of the time if I tried, I'd imagine people with faster fingers could too). If that happens it's no longer free, though there are counter-mixups possible (For example, in that scenario, I'd imagine that ftilt sets up for an unavoidable stick if they DI up far enough, or you can get a free stick -> grab once they get up).

It's possible that I'm too paranoid about 20xx and already setting up camp in my bunker so that I'm still a step ahead of the anti-Snake meta, but my muscle memory changes very slowly; for several months in friendlies I chucked grenades after ftilts instead of outputting a jab reset, since my thumb was too accustomed to holding the control stick on neutral. My reaction time isn't too great either (I dislike relying on it) and I go for reads a lot. With that being said, I feel that muscle memory adaptation and reaction time is what separates the decent players from the top players, so if you can change your muscle memory at will or react to an SDIed jab, then all's well; you can jump over that hurdle when it comes. If everyone SDIs my jabs upwards and I'm still stuck in jab reset muscle memory, though, I'd probably be screwed for months to come.

...Admittedly, I don't really remember what I was thinking with regards to the tech skill bit. Ignore that; my apologies.

 

[cisyphus]

See the thing about those tech covers is that you have a worse time coverting off of them at lower percents. f-tilt jab reset puts them directly in front of them, meaning c4 stick is guaranteed 100% of the time and grab is almost always guaranteed as well. The reward is well worth the small risk, imo.

 

[LupinX]

It's about the f-tilt

f-tilt to jab is a good tool for a reset to stick, but alot of people will get accustomed to it and will most likely expect it (SDI). And prof is already well known amongst the PM community and see sequences from him, so others will most likely find a way to get out of there as soon as possible. Not saying it's bad, but people expect it (especially in my locals, they SDI out of there), and that's when other tools can be used in situations. I have been f-tilting floaties to stick or if they have a stick, into an u-tilt. And man, has that been useful in getting kills and/or putting them in a position that benefits snake, which is the air (thanks cisyphus for showing me). f-tilt can provide alot of mix-ups, especially conditioning them to DI where they think it's safe but will set up for other things. I kinda wish prof were to utilize this more in his gameplay, especially a snake that developed the meta for us mains

 

[Professor Pro]

If people start SDI'ing my jabs then I will adapt to whatever the situation calls for lol. Until then, I will keep F-Tilt > Jab resetting people and when they tech it like some people do, I will tech chase them after because jab has little enough lag like I've been doing.

But yeah, I'm interested in seeing way you'll take Snake @ BND as you have a different perspective on Snake then me and I'm more interested in seeing how ideas are put into gameplay rather than theorized.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

I will hit the lab and test out the tranq more as a jab reset tool. I still feel like it should be something more than a tool to extend off resets though. I don't discount the tranq is most effective at close range but my point is it is seemingly only effective/reliable at close range. At some point I have to question why it is even a projectile.

Edit: What are people's thoughts on characters moving out of the hitbox of the c4 stick animation and him just not placing the c4 at all. This seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe I need to shake off the rust but it's really frustrating at times.
Making it a one frame move seems to be a bit much but maybe making the stick hit sooner would be ok? The timing of the c4 stick doesn't seem to line up with the animation as well as it used to. Seems like the timing was mucked with in 3.5. Sometimes it seems like I have missed after someone has moved out of range the c4 stick animation but right when it is almost done I hear Snake say "There!" at the last second.

Anyone know what I'm talking about here or do I need to explain better?

 

[BND]

That was one of the complaints I had from 3.02 to 3.5 (the timing, that is). I've mostly gotten used to it, because whether or not you get the C4 shouldn't really change the followup (aside from a potential immediate C4 explosion, but it's obvious enough whether or not the C4's fallen off)
In any case, as much as I'd like C4 to stick on frame 1, it seems like a really bad idea/game breaker especially in conjunction with ftilt. It has neither the small range nor endlag that rest has, and it goes through shields and effectively halves the opponent's stock's lifespan.

As for characters moving out of the hitbox, I definitely remember doing some testing with it, though I've since forgotten the results. All I know is that when the opponent's in the C4 detection hitbox on frame 8 and somehow disappears from it on frame 9, Snake's C4 just falls off onto the ground. I don't really have any thoughts about it, though if you're doing C4 as a platform tech chase punish, it should sometimes be mixed up with down air, which catches spotdodges handily. (It doesn't catch rolls nearly as well, though if you jump with a proper horizontal velocity I'd suspect that you can potentially cover both if you can react fast enough with your down air)

 

[LupinX]

I didnt know snake's c4 takes longer to stick in 3.5. I thought it just had a long end lag.

 

[BND]

It doesn't take longer to stick; the sound just comes out unreasonably late on certain sticks despite the fact that the fast stick animation comes out. (There is a special case where Snake's C4 stick hitbox is held out/lingers in an attempt to stick an opponent, and having that as the late stick would be reasonable, but I don't think that's happening here.)

 

[LupinX]

I've been thinking, what if:

Ground: 3.5 endlag on the stick but detonation is 3.02

Air: 3.02 endlag in the air stick but detonation is 3.5

 

[Professor Pro]

I will hit the lab and test out the tranq more as a jab reset tool. I still feel like it should be something more than a tool to extend off resets though. I don't discount the tranq is most effective at close range but my point is it is seemingly only effective/reliable at close range. At some point I have to question why it is even a projectile.

Edit: What are people's thoughts on characters moving out of the hitbox of the c4 stick animation and him just not placing the c4 at all. This seems to happen to me a lot. Maybe I need to shake off the rust but it's really frustrating at times.
Making it a one frame move seems to be a bit much but maybe making the stick hit sooner would be ok? The timing of the c4 stick doesn't seem to line up with the animation as well as it used to. Seems like the timing was mucked with in 3.5. Sometimes it seems like I have missed after someone has moved out of range the c4 stick animation but right when it is almost done I hear Snake say "There!" at the last second.

Anyone know what I'm talking about here or do I need to explain better?

There's nothing wrong with Tranq imo, I use it either in neutral or tech chase, and you have to be good at reading people's movement if you want to use it in neutral so you're not just throwing it out with reckless hope.
And I mean literally watching your opponent and thinking when are they going to jump and what type of movement they are going to do next.
And you can punish people during their L-Cancel lag of a move if you time it right, but you wont be able to time it right unless you are good at reading people's movement.
Obviously it's not a long range tool, but something that puts people to asleep for guaranteed kills in some situations shouldn't be extra reliable at long range.

And yeah, I get the delayed stick occasionally, I'm not actually 100% sure what causes it though instinct tells me it's something to do with the stickbox lining up at the last frame.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

There's nothing wrong with Tranq imo, I use it either in neutral or tech chase, and you have to be good at reading people's movement if you want to use it in neutral so you're not just throwing it out with reckless hope.
And I mean literally watching your opponent and thinking when are they going to jump and what type of movement they are going to do next.
And you can punish people during their L-Cancel lag of a move if you time it right, but you wont be able to time it right unless you are good at reading people's movement.
Obviously it's not a long range tool, but something that puts people to asleep for guaranteed kills in some situations shouldn't be extra reliable at long range.

And yeah, I get the delayed stick occasionally, I'm not actually 100% sure what causes it though instinct tells me it's something to do with the stickbox lining up at the last frame.

Thanks for the reply man. I will keep this in mind as I try to level up my game. Some of the people I play with never wake up when they are tranq'd and some seem to mash out mad quick. But it's similar to getting a grab I suppose; just gotta adapt to what they are doing, what % they are at, and where they are at on the stage.

 

[Juushichi]

Regarding the stuff from before, idk about Snake beating Sheik via camping because the base line is that it seems difficult for Snake to whiff punish Sheik in the first place.

What stops Sheik from basically just needle camping/needle charge camping him? As Sheik, aside from just like... eating a tranq at an unexpected time or getting somehow boxed in with my back to the corner, I feel pretty comfortable overall in neutral. Sheik on the whole is an anti-approach character, not one that actually approaches herself. I am not sure what Snake really does to disrupt this. I wish I would have decided to play Sheik vs @ Professor Pro when I saw him at BH4, but I was still somehow dedicated to GnW when I wasn't being a Falco sandbag for his warmup lol.

Snake's Punish game does speak for itself and Snake w/ the lead vs Sheik should do rather well.

 

[Professor Pro]

Thanks for the reply man. I will keep this in mind as I try to level up my game. Some of the people I play with never wake up when they are tranq'd and some seem to mash out mad quick. But it's similar to getting a grab I suppose; just gotta adapt to what they are doing, what % they are at, and where they are at on the stage.

Yeah, you just have to determine the best punish which you feel is fit for the situation, part of being a good player is being able to determine those things.
But just try to watch people's movement, because people have habits and movement is limited to the same options no matter what skill level.

Also Snake straight out loses to Sheik @ Juushichi
Camping with projectiles won't make the MU easier though playing defensive overall will, Snake's camp game is bad, because grenades don't blow up on impact and it's a set time which everyone can avoid.
Snake can force the opponent to be defensive, but he can't put on a lot of percent camping which is the key feature to a good camp game.
And then Sheik's the ONLY character that can transform to get the C4 off of her, which makes a bad MU even worse.

 

[EastCoastEddie]

I haven't really fought a good sheik in PM yet, but I can see it being a hard matchup. I'd still probably rather fight Sheik than Zelda though. At least I can combo Sheik..

I find that Snake can only really camp people with worse approaches than him that don't have a projectile, which is pretty rare. I've always thought he should be played similar to how Marth plays in neutral, just with different traps/setups. But kinda the same idea of trying to get a grab and getting max damage off it.

 

[cisyphus]

Zelda's actually easier overall in my opinion. That might just be Michigan being land of the Zelda, though. You have to be patient almost to a fault.

 

[LupinX]

I haven't really fought a good sheik in PM yet, but I can see it being a hard matchup. I'd still probably rather fight Sheik than Zelda though. At least I can combo Sheik..

I find that Snake can only really camp people with worse approaches than him that don't have a projectile, which is pretty rare. I've always thought he should be played similar to how Marth plays in neutral, just with different traps/setups. But kinda the same idea of trying to get a grab and getting max damage off it.

Fighting sheik requires you to force her to approach. And camping with snake isn't very good. If he gets behind, it's hard to come back. Problem is that sheik can avoid most of snake's projectile game (aka needle the mine, crouch tranq). You really need to know what the sheik is up to and play according to what she does. And when you grab sheik, it must be turned into a kill. What I have noticed is sheik has a good tech-chase game vs snake, so expect to get a lot of % lol.


@ cisyphus Zelda vs snake (zelda's favour) is a nightmare if Zelda knows how to properly defend against snake. But sheik is much easier to combo and edgeguard. Zelda I fell you need to hit her above you and do as much damage before she gets down

 

[cisyphus]

idk about that honestly. 3.02 Zelda certainly was difficult, but Din's Fire is far less useful and Nayru's Love doesn't stuff nearly as much as it used to. She also lost Farore's Wind as a strong approach option, so Zelda is extremely floaty and extremely slow, so Snake can control the pace of the match far better than Zelda can imo. Meanwhile Zelda dies super early to everything Snake has.

 

[LupinX]

I've been playing snake and noticed that his aerial mobility is pretty bad. What changes would you say that benefits snake in terms of weight and/or fast falling speed. Should his aerial mobility change?

 

[cisyphus]

Snake's air mobility is literally the worst in the game and is honestly his biggest weak point. Improving it considerably would make him top tier imo. His weight and fall speed are reasonable I think. I hesitate to say to change any of these partially because it'll mix up all of the timings for his aerials, combos, follow-ups, etc. Major changes like that to a character are really bad ideas.

 

[LupinX]

define "considerably". cause I was thinking more in the lines of a slightly weaker version of ike's air mobility.

 

[LupinX]

Do you think increasing the speed of C4 detonation both land and air will make s slight or big difference in snake's gameplay?

 

[yink059]

Also, this saturday i will be playing with calabrel in sierra vista and there will maybe be a 3.6 setup, ill keep you guys posted.