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SmashCAP Poll 4: Stat Spread Poll

Choose wisely.


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Spire

III
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4th Round, people.

Umbreon's Submission:

HP: 83 307 370
Att: 65 149 166 229 251
Def: 100 212 236 299 328
SpA: 110 230 256 319 350
SpD: 100 212 236 299 328
Spe: 82 180 200 263 289
BST: 540

So far as bulky offense is concerned, the best place to start is the overall picture. I chose a standard base 540 as a 3rd evolution as something that will easily fit into the top 25 of OU, but not necessarily he top 5, which is a happy medium that I was shooting for.

Hitting a key speed tier, I chose 82 such that it can outspeed base 80s and 81s (gyarados/milotic). gyarados is important, being probably the most used bulky offense pokemon, and the ability to wall the rock/ground attack combination is invaluable. We also have a handy advantage on the many, many base 70s and the many pokemon that simply do not invest in speed at all on the basis that water/ground effectively walls the **** out of steel, ground, and other commonly used moves on slow pokemon. The few that do outspeed CAP and hit neutral keep the pokemon from being the panacea from OU (balance is important here) but are also commonly scarfed and are thus choice lock bait for CAP. Think about how screwed scarftran is vs this thing on the revenge turn. Stuff like that.

Moving to defenses, mathematically speaking, base defense for each stat is worth more than HP. The ideal way to maximize defenses on a generic spread is to make def + spD = HP. Since we need to wall both spectrums equally, I chose to make the base defenses higher than HP to give additional defense to a solid defensive base of 283. The numbers should make themselves obvious at this point. 328 def and 370 HP on a water/ground is no joke. being able to mimic that for spe def is so good that it may increase the use of grass knot more....but not too much. again, balance is pivotal. I'm also shooting for the weight to be in the range to make grass knot 100 base power. With heavy investment, that's enough to live an unboosted grass knot from a generic attacker and retaliate accordingly, but still not enough to make the pokemon threatening for the next turn.

Offensively, most of OU are relatively weaker in their spe def than their def. Given a base 110SpA and stab water/ground, CAP1 can be an extremely effective BO pokemon itself while having the means to put holes in stall teams or even to take down pokemon in heavy offense. Att is ignored to keep CAP1 from being too dangerous in any given situation. However, it's not necessarily a weakness since we can choose to use whirlwind/roar later. It just requires some brains to play. Again, all about balance. Still, Specs Surf/Hydro Pump/ Earth Power from this thing will wreck.

As an overall picture, my second goal with this spread is such that this pokemon, given an average movepool can do almost anything. It can use a scarf or specs, go completely bulky, somewhere inbetween, or take on a role as a utility pokemon or lead WHILE being able to fight any given stat spread. It solidly counters hippowdon, tyranitar, metagross, mamoswine, infernape, heatran, just tons of useful pokemon, and isn't particularly bad against many pokemon. Even ice beam will hurt an incoming celebi, which are usually def based to handle gyarados instead of spe def based. I think this stat spread hits everything spot-on.
Terrador's Submission:

HP: 85
Generic HP stat; you'll see why in a minute.

Attack: 80
I disagree with Umbreon on the low Attack power of his spread. Anything with STAB Earthquake should have a decent Attack unless there's really good reason for it not to. Plus, flinch power with Waterfall could be a good aid.

Defense: 140
THIS is why it stops physical Bulky Offense right in its tracks. Being immune to EQ, resisting Stone Edge, and in general having a godlike typing, life becomes a lot easier. With just less than Registeel's physical defensive potential and an exponentially better physically defensive typing, things like Gyara will be hard pressed to tear this bad boy apart even with unresisted STAB. Scizor can suck it.

Special Attack: 80
I'd like to note that having access to a Psychic move (persay, Extrasensory?) would be a huge boon for this poke, allowing it to tear apart the 4x weaknesses in bulky offense and still hit Machamp hard (after all, he IS a solid staple of Bulky Offense).

Special Defense: 65
Eww. This is where the fun ends. This is in place to allow special moves to capitalize on this poke, discouraging its use in bulky offense somewhat. However, Tyranitar makes a solid partner for it, absorbing many special attacks and Pursuiting things like Latias and Starmie. He also manages to lay the hurt down on Zapdos, absorbing anything it's got and proceeding to Stone Edge (or, predicting a Roost, EQ).

Speed: 90
Woot! Being able to outspeed Gyarados is extremely important. Not to mention the fact that quite a few bulky pokes hang around in the 86> speed tiers, so that's a huge help (don't even talk to me about ScarfTom appliances). It's also worthy to note that this lies under the range of many special attackers who could tear it apart with STAB moves, discouraging its use in bulky offense again due to the fact that most special attackers can threaten it viciously, especially with their lack of weaknesses that its relatively low attacking stats can capitalize on.

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em. I seem to have rectified this a tad, though. Perhaps a Leviathan-esque design would do well for this beast, reflecting its vast physical defense and weight. If you wanna get philosophical about movepool, you could say that it's been around for millenia; as such, it knows moves that most fish don't have access to (Ice Beam, Thunderbolt, Grass Knot, potentially Extrasensory...).
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
voted for my own obviously. terradors is also good so no opposition from me. his is just a little too close to forretress IMO, but I guess mine is a tad close to rotom. I like both options.

HP: 83 vs 85
Att: 65 vs 80
Def: 100 vs 140
SpA: 110 vs 80
SpD: 100 vs 65
Spe: 82 vs 90

Both are BST 540.

mine is aimed for a weight where grass knot hits at 100 BP, his hits at 120 BST iirc. feel free to correct me, I haven't seen it in a while.

edit: close the poll wednesday. less than 24 hours is too little time.
 

M.K

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It's a really hard decision. For one, I feel like Umbreon's data/conclusions/bases are much more accurate and well-defined then Terrador's, however, I disagree with the 100 Def./Sp. Def pairing with 110 Sp. Attack. Yes, it's true that you may have stuck with a 540 base stat total; however, in my opinion, the stats are balanced in a way that is....somehow non-detrimental to the Pokemon. Obviously, each Pokemon needs Defense and Special Defense. However, Attack may be completely negated in terms of usage for Special Attack, and vice versa. Umbreon's stats are nicely outlined; however, the combinations of high defenses and special attack make it seem like....a psuedo-legendary or possibly something like a Suicune/Entei/Raikou. I'm going to take a look at some of the already-existing Pokemon (especially Starmie, because I feel like it has the same perks as Umbreon's stats and I KNOW that Starmie is not uncounterable, so it might be more balanced than I think). The unique Speed niche is also strange to me for some reason.
As for Terrador's submission, it seems too much like a Skarmory for me. Something with 140 base defense should not be able to move faster than base 80/90s with EVs. It's a tough decision. Right now, I'm in the middle...I've already (stupidly) bypassed the opportunity to input my own opinion into the stats, so for now, I'll make my decision when I see more discussion in this board. I suppose I'm leaning more towards Umbreon's stats.

@Umbreon: LOL. Forretress and Skarmory have the same BST, thats funny how we picked two Pokemon out that seem like Terrador's stat total.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
when I was first guessing at stat spreads, I sent it to pink reaper on aim and he made fun of me for copying rotom formes. I changed it to deviate from that, but still. the effective base spreads are generally already used. just be glad I didn't propose another togekiss lol. that ****er might as well be base 600.
 

Wave⁂

Smash Legend
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Skarmory and Rotom can't hurt anything without Swords Dance or blowing up.

I'm leaning towards Terrador's, but that giant Defense stat scares me.
 

UltiMario

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While this is a pretty good idea, it just doesn't sit right with me for some reason. This is probably because I don't like messing with a weakness we really need to be able to exploit but whatever. I do like the proposition to move the three speed points over, though. It would do very little to aid its special bulk, but make denting/killing offensive variations with non-scarf Rade and Pory-Z (and, by extension, the forgettable Pikachu, Moltres, and SpecsCario).

So yeah, I'm more for the 85/80/140/80/68/87 spread now. Admittedly, it does miss out on the 69, which is major sadface.

I would give that 4th speed point to defense, but I want to be able to outrun the Rotom appliances. Those things are just so powerful and bulky that we should at least pose some threat with STAB Waterfalls and Surfs. I'm assuming that we won't be giving it Shadow Ball or Dark Pulse, but Crunch might be happening.

That look familiar? I mean, unless he changed his mind back...

mine is aimed for a weight where grass knot hits at 100 BP, his hits at 120 BST iirc. feel free to correct me, I haven't seen it in a while.
Base 80 weight was used for Calcs, and at 80 it was taking sufficient damage from Grass Knot, so I believe 80 is the goal with his. I mean, lighter and takes more damage? Seems fair.
 
D

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Can't let you brew that, Starbucks.

Considering the godlike defense, this thing is easily going to be in the 120 group.
pretty obvious to me.

and rotom is harmless because it has bad stabs. stab water/ground is much better than electric/ghost.
 

Spire

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This is really interesting. The extra time gives me more time to think and since this is very important I'm going to take my time.
Heh, want to say 'time' one more time?

I'm really looking these over to the best of my knowledge, so I'm not sure whether I'll end up voting or not.
 

UltiMario

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pretty obvious to me.

and rotom is harmless because it has bad stabs. stab water/ground is much better than electric/ghost.
It barely matters anyway, almost anything using Grass Knot on Base 120 will still probably OHKO on base 80.

But I say before we argue on the weight, lets at least get this poll done, and then get some more art stuff done.
 

Terrador14

Smash Apprentice
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That look familiar? I mean, unless he changed his mind back...



Base 80 weight was used for Calcs, and at 80 it was taking sufficient damage from Grass Knot, so I believe 80 is the goal with his. I mean, lighter and takes more damage? Seems fair.
Yes, my spread does have three Speed points shifted to SDef. Somewhat forgettable, but still there.
 

Terrador14

Smash Apprentice
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Ugh... just what we need, another tie. And I don't even know who's voted yet. The pressure is on. *Eye twitches*.
 

Terywj [태리]

Charismatic Maknae~
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Poll is now over.

Terrador's spread it is. Next 2 SmashCAP threads coming up.

SmashCAP 1: Base Stats: 85 / 80 / 140 / 80 / 65 / 90

Spire, if you would do the honors.

-Terywj
 
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