SmashCAP 2: Stat Distribution Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

[SmashCAP 2]
Start date: 1/30/10
End date:--/--/--
Concept: Type Representation
Typing: Grass / Ghost

Ability: Shield Dust / Immunity

Now along with the art submissions going on we come to discussing stat spreads / stat distribution.

As stated in the previous thread, we plan on going defensive with SmashCAP 2, since Grass isn't really all that great of an attacking type. Coupled with Shield Dust it could make for a good defensive Pokemon. Discuss.

-Terywj

 

[Riddle]

HP - 80
Atk - 55
Def - 120
SpA - 70
SpD - 120
Spe - 60

HP has to be just average because the defenses are so high. Atk is very low because this thing gets terrible physical STABs and is supposed to be weak. Defense and Special Defense are high for a sort of bronzong effect but more so. Special attack is low but better than Attack because of Shadow Ball/Leaf Storm and so it can like dent swampert or something. Speed is 1 point below tyranitars so it can't WoW it before it crunches/pursuits (hey we need some kind of counter).

Thoughts? Ideas for fixing it?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Keep in mind the artwork ideas / submissions will affect it.

I was thinking the same thing as you, but mainly:

HP - 82
Atk - 50
Def - 120
Sp Atk -83
Sp Def - 130
Spd - 65

As far as counters go at this current stage, Bronzong, Skarmory, and Scizor would all like to say hi.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

Lets go on the base idea of this being a Physical Blissey....

My idea currently rests at:

HP: 65
Atk: 80
Def: 230
SpA: 10
SpD: 70
Spe: 65
Total: 520

So far, this thing is SLIGHTLY less bulky then Blissey, being at 390 for defense totals, below Blissey's 400.

HP Maxes out at 334, and defense at 616. These defenses won't be taking physical hits like Blissey takes special hits, and whilst it won't be taking special hits quite as good either because Blissey's gargantuan HP balances out all its physicaly defensive problems, whilst these lower, yet more balanced HP and Special Defense stats, won't be doing much the same, but it'll still be able to survive a few good special hits.

Any bulkier and it'll break the metagame, any less bulky, and its terribad typing (at least compared to bronzong and the like) might make it overlookable.

Since this thing is a PHYISICAL Blissey, I know that this thing's special attack will be in the toilet, as Blissey's Physical attack is.

The only thing I'm having trouble deciding are Attack and speed. At this point I've got filler numbers in.

I'm still working on this stat spread. Don't rush perfection.

My idea has something to do like with some magical dead tree or something for an artwork base... soo...

 

[Terywj [태리]]

While I seem fine with your idea, I think its defense is way too high..

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

That defense stat is way too high, UltiMario.

I'll be the original one. =)

HP- 100
Atk- 40
Def- 64
Sp. Atk- 105
Sp. Def- 70
Spe- 131

BST: 510

This is pretty basic. With 131 Speed, this thing is capable of outspeeding everything in the OU tier not named Ninjask (Who would just mow through it with X-Scissor anyways), which makes it a pretty amazing lead. With 252 HP EVs, this thing gets a 101 HP Substitute, which is all around sexy, and means that it has more choices than JUST being a lead. It doesn't really mean that much, since Blissey can't touch him with Seismic Toss anyways.

This thing's goal is pretty much to start spreading status, set up a sub, and attack. This thing is gonna suffer of 4-moveslot syndrome so badly.

Both Ghosts and Grass Pokemon generally have a decent/high SpA, so I decided to give it a 105, to give it some power as well.

One could consider this broken, but Priority will beast this thing pretty hard, thanks to it's lackluster Defenses.

Right away, I see Ninjask as the most solid counter to this, as a +2 X-Scissor will beast this thing pretty hard. Besides that, things that are immune to sleep will also not have much trouble beating this. Honchkrow, for example, is immune to sleep, and can retaliate with Pursuit/Brave Bird/Night Slash/etc. Lum Berry Metagross would also do pretty well.

Opinions?

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I think the defenses are a bit too weak on your spread.

But again, having a community is what versitility means.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

I did some calcs, and agreed. Dropping Defense down to 230.
Now its a bit more fair. Currently it is 84% as bulky physically as Blissey is specially, as compared to 90% as 255 does. Slightly buffed attack and speed in return though. Total is resting at 525.

This thing has more weaknesses than Blissey, so I'm certain by now its fair defensively. However, I'm worried about how this thing would work offensively.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Tery, I had the defenses higher originally, but when I thought you people would consider it broken, since only two non-scarf Pokemon (Of them is Deoxys-S) in the entire game outspeed it. But if the community feels that the defenses are too low for a Ghost/Grass, I'll change it. I personally feel this is the most balanced of all my drafts.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

HP - 102
Atk - 50
Def - 120
Sp Atk -93
Sp Def - 130
Spd - 65

102 / 120 / 130 defenses are great. The numerous common weaknesses SmashCAP 2 carries are remedies by its bulk. Attack was basically ignored, while Sp Atk was placed at a mediocre average amount of 93. Nasty Plot would give it something to work with offensively. This thing is going to have poor Speed, however. It's enough to outpace Tyranitar though.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

I like Leafy's the most so far.

 

[Circa]

Tery, I had the defenses higher originally, but when I thought you people would consider it broken, since only two non-scarf Pokemon (Of them is Deoxys-S) in the entire game outspeed it. But if the community feels that the defenses are too low for a Ghost/Grass, I'll change it. I personally feel this is the most balanced of all my drafts.

I definitely wouldn't raise the defenses, because with possible access to every status, it can be EXTREMELY dangerous just with that Speed alone. Imagine it sitting behind a Sub and firing off WoW to all the physical priority users that would love to take a crack at it. Your only true option is to attack it as much as you can with your current Pokemon. This ruins Seismic Toss Blissey and any choice user locked into a Fighting-type move though, which is pretty nuts. I already see that thing as dangerous. No need to boost its defenses anymore.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Ahh yes. I don't know why but I completely overlooked the amazing base speed.

Might as well make it 132, since 131 is really odd.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

131 = Exactly enough to outspeed Aerodactyl and Jolteon. One of the stats end up odd no matter what.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

So what's keeping you from giving it an extra speed point?

Bear with me, I suck when it comes to stat spreads.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

You could just make it nice and round and sit at 135. It makes it a lot less obvious that you wanted to outspeed everything in OU- not named Ninjask.

 

[UltiMario]

I was going to have a more complex post, but then I realized something.

The only leads in the game that would beat this are Scarfed LeadTrans, and TrickScarf Pokemon.

So pretty much, Scarftran, TrickScarf Jirachi/Smeargle, everything else is too minor to be worth mentioning.

That lead would dominate. Acess to Wisp, Sleep Power, and Stun Spore, thats justs... godlike.

Now if it wasn't for Shield Dust, it would be balanced just fine, but without it, it beats at least 90% of the leads in all of Pokemon, just putting them to sleep and rendering them useless, them not being able to do much back. Sash leads would be rare with this, you'd need to pack Lum Berries to avoid from being completely shut down. It would completely break the metagame, not due to 131 speed, but a combination of that and Shield Dust.

 

[IC3R]

--------------------

 

[Wii4Mii 99]

I agree with UltiMario.
The reason for this Pokemon's creation is to take advantage of its abnormal typing, and having Sheild Dust along with great Speed and access to multiple status moves will edge it's role into being a great lead. Grass/Ghost also gives resistances to Water, Electric, Grass, and Ground, and immunities to Normal and Fighting. These resistances/immunities will allow it to switch in with relative ease, and if it had a high speed stat it could immediately begin wrecking havoc.

To take advantage of the abnormal Grass/Ghost typing would come from these resistances and immunities, which would be used for switching in and beginning to spread status, but perhaps we should keep its Speed lower so that it doesn't become more of a fast status spreader, and more of a, "Oh no, this thing came in. What Pokemon can I switch in that can take a status and then slowly wear this thing down." As in, above average defenses and below average offenses.

Now, I'm no good with stat distributions either, but this is the best thing I can do to help. Perhaps Sheild Dust may need to be reconsidered? I apologize if I am restating what may be the obvious.

 

[UltiMario]

Shield Dust doesn't need to be reconsidered, it just can't be so fast that nothing in its way can stop it.

IMO, this thing can carry base 90 speed MAX. Beyond that it'll be broken.

 

[IC3R]

I'll try working on a stat spread, now that I understand this thing's purpose.


Also, welcome back, Wii4Mii94.

 

[xLeafybug =D]

UltiMario, all that means is that it gets ***** by Salamence, which is already the #2 pokemon in OU, as well as any 95+ base speeder who carries a fire attack.

Whats the point of having access to every status in the game, but is pimpslapped before they can spread anything? Ghosts generally don't have a high defensive stat, it's usually their lowest, yet you guys are trying to make a ghost with leviathan-eqsue defensive capabilities.It makes no sense.

I thought Shield Dust was a bad choice from the get-go, because when I saw that Ghost/Grass was selected, I immediately thought "super-fast status spreader", which is completely realistic, but with Shield Dust, it's broken.

I think that Shield Dust is a bad idea, and I'm stupid for not voicing my opinion earlier.

 

[UltiMario]

Because you guys imagine some woodland pixie ghost and I imagine some bulky old tree that can TAKE A ****ING HIT and spreat status around and be an effecient wall.

The point of its abilities is also for them to be EQUAL CHOICES and BOTH ABILITIES ARE VIABLE CHOICES AND HELP THE POKEMON.

On something fast and Frail, Immunity is useless, and the only thing Shield Dust is stopping is Jirachi Iron Head Flinches, which are replaced by Fire Punch OHKOs.

When you're slow and Bulky, Shield Dust is TONS more valuable than stopping flinches from one Pokemon, and Immunity becomes viable so your Walling state isn't ruined by Toxic.

You've got to think how the Pokemon can benefit from what it has, rather than you making a stat distribution and demanding everyone else to change their minds to base the world around it.

 

[IC3R]

I agree with UltiMario on that point of slow and sturdy.

I'm beginning to think this Old Tree Pokemon's stat spread will be similar to that of Glaceon. It's slow, has a bit of physical bulk, and impressive Special Attack. We could forego the massive SpAtt for a bit more average level, and put that into HP.

To be honest, Tery's set looks to be the most accurately represented, although I would go for a bit more physically-biased bulk, rather than special. It will probably get Amnesia, being old and all...


EDIT::

HP -- 121
Attack -- 55
Defense -- 127
Sp. Attack -- 90
Sp. Defense -- 103
Speed -- 64

Hits 353 BSR -- Rank 7: Excellent

 

[xLeafybug =D]

I'm gonna agree to disagree here, just to nip this in the bud, and prevent an unnecessary argument.

I'm not saying Shield Dust needs to be changed, I just said I didn't like it. Not once did I say we should go back and change it, and not once did I demand for anyone to agree with me, I personally don't care that much. All I said is that I THINK it's a bad choice, I have a little more sense then that.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Wait, IC3R, what was the point of testing mine...?

-Terywj

 

[IC3R]

...

I though I didn't post that part >_____>;;

*deletes*

 

[Terywj [태리]]

HP - 102 < 131
Atk - 50 < 55
Def - 120 < 127
Sp Atk -93 > 90
Sp Def - 130 > 103
Spd - 65 > 64

Just a comparison between my idea and Spire's idea.

I'm still lost though.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

HP - 102 > 65 < 131
Atk - 50 < 80 > 55
Def - 120 < 230 > 127
Sp Atk -93 > 10 < 90
Sp Def - 130 > 70 < 103
Spd - 65 = 65 > 64

I randomly threw mine in LOL, mine are in the middle. CONFUSINGANIDUS

I also put my stats in X-Act, and got 286, Rank 5: Good.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I only compared mine and IC3R's because he did it first.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

HP: 150
Attack: 110
Defense: 75
Special Attack: 90
Special Defense: 65
Speed: 10
Total: 500

I literally just threw this together. Based on a dead tree. Huge HP because it was a tree, and they live for mukking ever. And anyone who wants to dispute about Ghosts having high HP, meet Drifblim. Respectable Attack because trees are awesome and could hit like a truck of they were alive (lol). But it's dead, so it has arthritis and **** and it can't hit as hard. Still hard, though. The Defense and Special Defense are because trees are hard as rocks and ****. They get chopped up by chainsaws and burned by wildfires though, so it can't be TOO good. Decent Special Attack because old, dead trees would be wise. Some could end up with Alzheimer's and have their wisdom ruined, but meh. Mukking abysmal Speed because it's a **** tree. It's not supposed to be fast.

This thing basically makes full use of both abilities. Tanks like a mother****er (or so I'd guess; I don't know what it can live through with its defenses) and is so slow that it couldn't even win a tortoise race (it does win the turtle race though). Immunity and Shield Dust respectively, as you can see.

Rate/hate. Idc. I just wanted to contribute. This would be fun with Ingrain (which it would get if it's a tree; no doubt).

EDIT: This came out with an overall rating of 260, Rank 5: Good. Movepool would make the difference for this thing; and we already know it'll have a good movepool, so that won't make a huge difference.

 

[UltiMario]

The tree is already dead.

It is past the point of living forever for high HP

 

[Circa]

Trees stay standing after they're dead unless another force does something to them. As such, the HP is its highest defensive stat from the standpoint that it's also the frailest of defensive stats. It keeps it standing, but it doesn't keep it from falling by any means. It can still be OHKO'd by things from both offensive spectrums, which wouldn't be achieved as precisely if I adjusted the base defensive stats to put more solidity in its actual Defense or Special Defense.

Or in other words, I already saw that statement coming when I made up the stats. Pwnt.

 

[UltiMario]

Its got Blissey Syndrome.

Its HP is so high that it can tank with low defense.

 

[Riddle]

HP: 150
Attack: 110
Defense: 75
Special Attack: 90
Special Defense: 65
Speed: 10

The HP is obviously very high and I understand your reasoning for that. I honestly think high Special Attack makes more sense with the STABs (leaf storm/shadow ball). The defense and Special Defense are mostly just decent which balances with the HP.

My one big problem with this is the speed. 10 speed is awful it can't outspeed anything and just seems like a way to lower the BST. Increase this to 60 or something (Ttar has base 61) or even like 30 (bronzong is 33) but 10?

So I would fix this by switching Attack and Special Attack and raising the speed to anything in the 30-60 range.

 

[Circa]

@UltiMario: Not really. It can take maybe two SE hits; depending on what it's facing. And remember that it has a lot less overall bulk than Blissey as well; plus a worse defensive typing (hitting neutral on Blissey is much more likely than hitting neutral on this guy). I hardly see how you can give it Blissey syndrome when the only thing it truly has in common with it is strong support (which we knew when we chose this freaking type combination in the first place). Despite what I said a page or two back about unique stats, this thing is actually relatively unique stat-wise.

Now quit disputing the case. I'm not sure if you've noticed, but a lot of these stat distributions look quite the same and will give us two stall-ish SmashCAPs. Mine breaks the mould in that way, as well as being different than basically everything of its same typings in OU (except for maybe Dusknoir, but the movepool can change a lot of that too).

I'm taking note of Riddle's adjustments and will mess with it accordingly. Like I told him on AIM, the 10 Speed was just because I liked the 10 Speed. <.< I have about an extra 40 points I can put in places if I feel like it, so I'll look into all of it and see what I can come up with. I could definitely see the Speed raising though. I like the idea of utilizing Wood Hammer on this thing. Mega fun. And it'd probably need a Scarf to make that most valid. So...yeah. <.<

 

[IC3R]

HP - 102 < 121
Atk - 50 < 55
Def - 120 < 127
Sp Atk -93 > 90
Sp Def - 130 > 103
Spd - 65 > 64

Just a comparison between my idea and IC3R's idea.

I'm still lost though.

-Terywj

I feel like a total douche-bag for even comparing our stats in the first place. I wanted to use the same BST, but get a higher BSR. Recently, I've wanted to turn everything I do into a humongous competitive deal, when it shouldn't be.

I didn't want to settle for "Very Good". Such an odd and unique typing deserves no less than excellence, so that's what I went for.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Bleh. I think I'll just withdraw my idea then.

-Terywj

 

[IC3R]

Sorry man

 

[Terywj [태리]]

No worries. I suck at stat distribution anyways.

-Terywj