SmashCAP 1: Counters Discussion

[Terywj [태리]]

SmashCAP 1
Concept: Bulky-Offense Counter
Type: Water/ Ground
Ability: Levitate / Unaware
Base stats: 85 / 80 / 140 / 80 / 65 / 90 (BST: 540)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260746 (Attacking moves discussion thread)
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With the base stats settled, we move onto the discussion of counters for our SmashCAP 1.
As with any created Pokemon, we cannot make one and deem it too powerful, it must fit in with the system of checks and balances that the game has.

My opinions: As of right now Roserade looks like a great counter to it, being resistant to SmashCAP 1's Water STAB and being able to fire back a Leaf Storm or Energy Ball. However, SmashCAP 1 is part Water-type, which grants it access to Ice-type moves.

-Terywj

 

[ss118]

Roserade does not resist Ground.

Probably the biggest counter I see is Celebi atm. Torterra can keep it in check so long as it avoids Ice attacks. Which it likely will.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Whoops. My bad. Forgot about the Poison-type. *Fail*

Lol. Tropius resists Water and is immune to Ground, but nobody uses Tropius.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

Latias, Gengar, Infernape can outspeed and OHKO this guy.

 

[Circa]

Latias preys off the not-so-good SDef stat, is immune/resists both STABs, and gets Grass Knot if it really needs it. Plus I would assume its bulkiness does a decent job of taking its ice attacks that it'll be just about guaranteed to get. Oh yeah, and it outspeeds it. That makes it a pretty good counter if you ask me.

Suicune can basically set up on it.

EDIT: Half ninja'd. >.<

DOUBLE EDIT: Unless of course this gets Grass Knot and we make some cracked up Specs set out of it or something. Then it can take on Suicune.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Grass Knot on SmashCAP seems pretty unlikely. Hidden Powers would probably be its best bet against Suicune.

-Terywj

 

[Circa]

I figured, but you never know. So yeah, Suicune sets up on it.

 

[Deleted member]

Chlorophyll Exeggutor? lol

 

[Deleted member]

well, this guy seems to have the classic hippowdon symdrome.

Hippowdon Syndrome- the pokemon de facto mindgames your opponent into doing your will. Example: "I can't possibly hit hippo with a physical attack!" followed by 14 futile turns attempting an ice beam switch-in on Roar.

So basically I think we should max HP, hit an obvious speed tier, and dump the rest into SpD + Calm and call it a day. It's okay to sack the attack stat since reasonable attacking moves + roar = no counters.

CAP1 @ Lum Berry
Calm, Levitate
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Stealth Rock
Earth Power
Surf
Roar

insta-lead. yay.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

well, this guy seems to have the classic hippowdon symdrome.

Hippowdon Syndrome- the pokemon de facto mindgames your opponent into doing your will. Example: "I can't possibly hit hippo with a physical attack!" followed by 14 futile turns attempting an ice beam switch-in on Roar.

So basically I think we should max HP, hit an obvious speed tier, and dump the rest into SpD + Calm and call it a day. It's okay to sack the attack stat since reasonable attacking moves + roar = no counters.

CAP1 @ Lum Berry
Calm, Levitate
252 HP / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
Stealth Rock
Earth Power
Surf
Roar

insta-lead. yay.

Wait we're going into counters, not viable sets. We're not even close to starting movesets yet. xD

-Terywj

 

[supermarth64]

We can't counter this without knowing what the movepool will be.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We can't counter this without knowing what the movepool will be.

This thread, like the art submission thread and the soon sprite submission thread will all be ongoing. When the artwork submissions close and when we select one via the artwork poll the name submission thread and the moveset threads will be initiated.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Shaymin does heavy damage to this thing. Seed Flare is 0HKOing it no matter what. On top of that, it resists it's water STAB, and it's Ground STAB is neutral.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Venusaur can do good damage as well.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

blehblehbleh. Disregard this.

 

[Wave⁂]

But unlike Shaymin, Venusaur is gonna take SE damage from STAB Earthquake or Earth Power.

Venasaur is part Grass.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Venasaur is part Grass.

Thanks. xD
And not to mention Venusaur has relatively good bulk.

-Terywj

 

[xLeafybug =D]

Oh yeah... LOL!
My bad.

 

[M.K]

I'd like to know the Weight of this Pokemon.

If it ends up being big, anything with Grass Knot may be about to easily come in on it.

EDIT: My bad, I didn't mean "I want to know" rather than "Knowing would help at this point".

 

[Wave⁂]

100 or 120 seems like what most people are assuming.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

If it ends up being big, anything with Grass Knot may be about to easily come in on it.

That's not quite true. Infernape won't be switching in on SmashCAP's Surf / EarthPower.

It's safer to say Grass-types are good switch-ins.

-Terywj

 

[M.K]

That's not quite true. Infernape won't be switching in on SmashCAP's Surf / EarthPower.

It's safer to say Grass-types are good switch-ins.

-Terywj

Obviously an Infernape would never switch in. -_- I accounted for common sense when I said "everything".

Thinking more along the lines of Normal types, Psychic Types, etc. with Grass Knot, not something blatantly weak to it.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I lack common sense, my bad.

Pokemon that Levitate are obviously immune to SmashCAP 1's Ground STAB, and most are neutral to Water. The most common I can think of is Azelf.
Salamence also causes problems for any physical sets with Intimidate, a Water resist and a Ground immunity.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

I'm sure we could give this guy Avalanche or even Ice Shard.

 

[Deleted member]

Grass Knot hits this guy at 120 base power. GK and low kick are intrinsic aspects of the stat spread, and terrador specifically stated his at 120 as a means to counter its ridiculous defense.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

The art submissions need to hurry along. We've got naming and spriting after it, and then movesets.

-Terywj

 

[Terrador14]

Faster HP Grass Zapdoses makes a solid switchins.

Gyara (particularly BulkyGyara) can switch in and set up on pretty much any variant but HP Electric. I'm guessing that Stone Edge won't hurt that bad if SmashCAP1 gets it, considering its base 80 Atk and Intimidate.

In fact, any Bulky Water with a Grass move will take it out. Toxic is its best bet against these.

Rotom-C is one of the best switchins available, considering its bulk and access to Leaf Storm.

Blissey has so much HP that nothing SmashCAP1 will get can touch it (barring a ToxiStall set). It can then proceed to Toxic itself and/or Ice Beam to death. Instant recovery and Natural Cure also make it a rather solid counter.

Similar principles apply to Curselax.

Latias, Azelf, and Mespirit are great choices, as they can switch in on its mediocre offense and tear it a new one with STAB or Super Effective moves.

Special Kingdra can and will come in and set up Rain, then obliterate it in two Surfs or Hydro Pumps. Again, Toxic is SmashCAP1's best option to thwart a potential sweep.

Mismagius can use virtually any special set as set-up bait for CM or NP sets, particularly SubCM.

Finally, as mentioned, most Bulky Grasses make phenomenal counters.


Did I forget something?

 

[Deleted member]

Did I forget something?

it's supposed to BEAT bulky offense, not lose to all of them >_>

/exaggeration

 

[Terrador14]

Three great partners for SmashCAP1 (Blissey, Tyranitar, and Jirachi) say "hi". Each one handles a good chunk of what you see above. Can you say SmashCAP1Bliss?

 

[UltiMario]

I predicted that some **** like Terrador's post was going to show up.

May I also mention that Machamp has some decent bulk and the RestTalker can **** you to death after a single Dynamicpunch?
Then again, Machamp ***** just about anything not a ghost type after a Single Dynamicpunch, but that doesn't make my statement any less true!

Also, how could you forget breloom as a counter? Seriously.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

I predicted that some **** like Terrador's post was going to show up.

May I also mention that Machamp has some decent bulk and the RestTalker can **** you to death after a single Dynamicpunch?
Then again, Machamp ***** just about anything not a ghost type after a Single Dynamicpunch, but that doesn't make my statement any less true!

Also, how could you forget breloom as a counter? Seriously.

Apparently Seed Bomb bypassed us. xD

-Terywj

 

[Terrador14]

I wouldn't call Breloom a counter, as it can't take two Ice Beams and is outran.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

We can call it a check if SmashCAP 1 is not packing Ice Beam or any Ice-type physical move.

-Terywj

 

[UltiMario]

One problem with your theory: For the fastest Brelooms, you'd have to run 188 Speed Evs with a Neutral Speed nature in order to outpace Jolly 252 Brelooms, the fastest Seed Bombing set, or 48 Speed EVs to outpace the standard Spore Punching Breloom. But the 188 Spe is unneeded, considering the fact a Jolly Breloom would have no chance to OHKO.

Max Atk Adamant Breloom vs Max/Max Bold SmashCAP1
394 Atk vs 416 Def & 374 HP (80 Base Power): 328 - 388 (87.70% - 103.74%)

58% chance of OHKO with Stealth Rock, 100% chance of OHKO with a single layer of Spikes.

Now lets take into account the fact that this is Max/Max Bold. The chances we'll be running Max/Max bold on SmashCap1? No clue, but even with only a few EVs out of each, Breloom turns into a coinflip counter to an absolute one unless that extra bulk is put into Speed.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

That's why I called Breloom a check and not a counter.

-Terywj

 

[Wave⁂]

Swords Dance Breloom?

 

[UltiMario]

Swords Dance Breloom?

If outsped, it definately won't work.
If it outspeeds, theres still a chance you'll die the turn the Swords Dance is used if you switch into a Crit or into an Ice Beam.

 

[Terywj [태리]]

Basically Grass-types have to be careful about Ice Beam / Ice Shard or whatever from SmashCAP 1.

Celebi is different, as it is bulkier, but still.

-Terywj

 

[Terywj [태리]]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=260746
That's the thread in which we're all discussing which moves should be given to SmashCAP 1 as far as offense goes. We use that thread to submit / explain and we can discuss them here.

I'm going to say that if we give SmashCAP 1 it'll give it good ability to easily weaken his enemies / counters, given his great defense stat. This makes SmashCAP 1 an easy abuser of it to make it simpler for his teamates to setup and sweep.

I'd also like to voice out on how I wish to have Bronzong (and to a lesser extent Skarmory) as a good check for SmashCAP 1.

Edit: Also, edited the URL into the OP.

-Terywj

 

[Terywj [태리]]

BUMP

I think we can get our wheels churning now that the movepool is basically complete.

As it stands, Bronzong and Skarmory look like great counters to SmashCAP 1, while Roserade, Celebi and Shaymin look like good checks provided they don't eat an Ice Beam on their way in.

Also, I'm figuring if SmashCAP ends up getting Dragon Dance, the physical set will be more appealing.

Discuss.

-Terywj