Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

Spoiler: Current List - 4.09

Version 4.0.9 - Characters not ranked within tiers.

1:
2:
3:
4:
5:
6:
7:
8:

My votes thus far:
+1
+1
+1

Not too sure of the other two, but for now
+1(I know I'm not alone when I say he deserves to stay where he is; countervote).

 

[Deleted member]

-
-
-
-
-

 

[Y2Kay]

+
+
+
+
+

 

[Wintermelon43]

+
-
-
-
-

 

[QualityQ]

When a Japanese player does well in a NA tournament, its NA rules and NA metagame. Those aren't Japanese results as in Japanese tournaments. Pretty obvious.

Rosalina and Villager wouldn't be flipped, as Rosalina in NA has a bit more rep outside of Villager than Villager does outside of Ranai. But yes Rosalina would be lower and Villager would be higher. Same would happen to say, idk Ryu if Zero and Trela swapped mains. Not surprising, pretty obvious.

MKLeo was first in Canada Cup yes. And Mexico is in NA so I have no clue what your point was there. Like at all. Its a NA player winning a NA tournament. Please don't tell me you though Mexico was SA.

I'll address these individually:

1. If the argument is Japan doesn't count because its a different metagame entirely (thank you for clarifying), I would argue that's not necessarily relevant. First example is when an NA player plays in Japan; there you can compare performances directly. Second example is that you can still consider results, just to a lesser degree. Let's say the japan meta (?) has less diddy kong and ZSS (as their power rankings might indicate). Then Ranai, who plays Villager, still does well against characters excluding diddy kong and ZSS. So you can still say Villager is probably really good, you just can't compare Villager with diddy kong & ZSS directly. You can... correct for the meta, while still considering Japan.

2. The point here is that, to your rules, ignoring results entirely, a player's location matters to your tier list. If Zero/Trela swapped mains, and this significantly changed the tier list, then a player's skill level influences the tier list. I only agree with the latter here.

3. I tried to quote to clarify, but my point here is that the "big fish in small pond" idea doesn't seem fair. For example, let's say another Mexico player beats MKLeo. Do their results matter, even though they never played Ally/M2K/etc.? If so, how much? I would say their results matter equal to MKLeo, not that MKLeo results matter more just because he played in more tournaments. MKLeo's results would only count more if he was able to consistently beat the proposed Mexico player, even if that player only plays in Mexico.

Props for the font color decision, by the way. The yellow looks really nice against the black forum board. This white kind of hurts my eyes.

 

[mario sucks]

+
+
+
+

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-
-
-(formerly -)
-

Holding onto last vote.

I'll drop the discussion at this point as its getting no where and people are trying to grab examples/ideas that are too vaguely related. I'll summarize it with this: I value a very high degree of consistency (see, me generally being very slow at accepting large character jumps). If there is something that would mess with that consistency imo I will reject it. I feel the Japanese metagame and rules are not consistent with the rest of the world. Just because there are no different button inputs or whatnot, doesn't mean things can be pulled off here like they can be over there. What's more difficult to do: win a game while banking on Wario's waft, or winning a whole set while having to bank on it? Or to figure out how to beat an opponent's Sonic style in one game or one set?

If they completely can Bo1 and have their regions with even smaller legal stage lists change it to be more in line with the NA ones I'll reevaluate using their results. Until that point in time, I won't use them. Their current set up adds variables seen nowhere else in the metagame. That tampers with results, messes with character consistency in different ways.

 

[TDK]

-1 (These characters are low-mid that people like for whatever reason. Honest characters can never be anything but below average in a game where oppressive and dishonest tools, moves, and options make a character.)
+1 (Better than everyone in his tier by a large margin, let's get him up)
+1 (Well, I can see what we're doing this round)
-1 (Is he really as good as Villager or Marth?)

I'll save the last vote.

 

[Deleted member]

-1 (These characters are low-mid that people like for whatever reason. Honest characters can never be anything but below average in a game where oppressive and dishonest tools, moves, and options make a character.)
+1 (Better than everyone in his tier by a large margin, let's get him up)
+1 (Well, I can see what we're doing this round)
-1 (Is he really as good as Villager or Marth?)

I'll save the last vote.

I wouoldn't say Link is better than by a "large" margin, but you do you.

 

[TDK]

I wouoldn't say Link is better than by a "large" margin, but you do you.

Shulk is good too. I have a pretty low opinion of the other two, though.

Someday I should release my tier list.

 

[AlphaSSB]

+
-
-
-
+

 

[Deleted member]

Shulk is good too. I have a pretty low opinion of the other two, though.

Someday I should release my tier list.

Regi's results with G&W don't lie, at least. Mac has done decently this year as well, I feel like he has nowhere to go but up.

 

[wedl!!]

+

 

[Routa]

+ (He belongs in the same area as the likes of Eki, Luigi, DK and Bowser)
+ (I have a hard time seeing Gunner, a character who does decently against all sword wielders and has decent MUs against 5 of the characters in the current "1" tier, placed in same tier as characters like Falco and Roy)
- (He is heavily flawed in 1111 form)
+
I wont be personally down voting Palutena this round due to it not leading into anything. Instead I vote the guys who I think are better than her up.

Votes may change later.

 

[Ethan7]

- isn't upper high tier nor better than Toon Link, Corrin, Mega Man, Ryu, etc.
- doesn't really have any notable results.
-/ does Pit really have any notable results other than Earth?
+ getting some good placings.
+ probably more along with the tier above him.

 

[Dusk Pit]

+/
+
-
-
+

 

[Nidtendofreak]

-
-
- (Samus get down from there. You're drunk, and none of your mains are really getting much in the way of results anymore)
-

Holding onto last vote.

I'll drop the discussion at this point as its getting no where and people are trying to grab examples/ideas that are too vaguely related. I'll summarize it with this: I value a very high degree of consistency (see, me generally being very slow at accepting large character jumps). If there is something that would mess with that consistency imo I will reject it. I feel the Japanese metagame and rules are not consistent with the rest of the world. Just because there are no different button inputs or whatnot, doesn't mean things can be pulled off here like they can be over there. What's more difficult to do: win a game while banking on Wario's waft, or winning a whole set while having to bank on it? Or to figure out how to beat an opponent's Sonic style in one game or one set?

If they completely can Bo1 and have their regions with even smaller legal stage lists change it to be more in line with the NA ones I'll reevaluate using their results. Until that point in time, I won't use them. Their current set up adds variables seen nowhere else in the metagame. That tampers with results, messes with character consistency in different ways.

Last vote: -

He's in the perfect spot atm (accidentally since tiers are currently unordered. But if they were ordered it would be perfect for him).

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+ (Counter vote)
-
-
+
+

 

[Munomario777]

+Countervote. Doesn't really lose a ton of matchups from what I've heard? And his moveset is also pretty dang strong in general.
- Also a countervote. Powerful at his peak, but has weaknesses against some prominent characters, such as rushdowns that can keep the pressure up as well as Rosa.
+

Will hold onto the other two for now.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

-1 Sorry, but when your last big result was 2nd at Shine 2016 (and that was probably because most big threats were upset early), I can't see him being that high.
+1 The most obvious choices to move to tier 2 at this point.
+1 I've said it once, and I'll say it again: With so many characters moving up, Peach deserves tier 3 with her great theory and big results from Samsora, SlayerZ, Ling Ling, Umeki, and Kie.
+1 With those lower tiers getting smaller, Link should move up to the level of characters who have similar theory and results.

With tier 1 being large and tier 2 likely getting several of the characters from tier 3, I'm fine with Ness, Lucina, and Falcon being tier 3. If they would be moving up to tier 2, I would definitely countervote them down.

 

[QualityQ]

-1 this... doesn't seem right.
-0 -1
+1 should there really be 10 characters as tier 1? And if so, are all the tier 1 characters equal?
+1 / Countervote here
-1 Seems a bit underwhelming at tier 2, even if his theory is pretty solid.

 

[Y2Kay]

-1 (These characters are low-mid that people like for whatever reason. Honest characters can never be anything but below average in a game where oppressive and dishonest tools, moves, and options make a character.)
I'll save the last vote.

¿Por que?


What game are you playing?

 

[Bowserboy3]

+/
+
-
-
-

I'm not quite sure what you're thinking with some of those votes... Marth for example, but that's not why I'm replying to this...

-1?

Really?!

 

[Frihetsanka]

should there really be 10 characters as tier 1? And if so, are all the tier 1 characters equal?

Sheik may be stronger than most top tiers, but she's not really that much stronger right now. Old Sheik would've deserved a tier of her own, sure, but right now, I'd argue that all top 10 characters are somewhat similar in power level. Some are stronger than others, sure, but Sheik doesn't seem to be that much better than, say, Mario or Zero Suit Samus (two characters on the lower end of tier 1). With the current state of game balance, those 10 characters have proven time and time again that they are top tier. I don't think any character right now really has much of a short for top 10 (maybe Ryu, if we are to believe Trela and ZeRo).

Once we order characters within tiers, we'll see some characters in tier 1 at the top and some at the bottom, which should solve most of these issues.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

+
+
+
+
-

 

[Deleted member]

+
+
+
+
-

why do you think roy and falco should be higher from where they are right now?

 

[Dusk Pit]

I'm not quite sure what you're thinking with some of those votes... Marth for example, but that's not why I'm replying to this...

-1?

Really?!

Hmm? What about Diddy? I simply don't think he is the best, even Zero doesn't think he is number 1. Do you question his opinions too?

Must you not always get triggered with my votes? Besides you voted Marth up, where do you think he should be? There are better characters below Marth already imo + he is too far away from his clone.

E: Actually Diddy is not gonna move anywhere anytime soon so I replace him with a +

 

[Frihetsanka]

Hmm? What about Diddy? I simply don't think he is the best, even Zero doesn't think he is number 1. Do you question his opinions too?

Characters are not ordered within tiers, this has been said multiple times, and it's underlined in the rules part.

Must you not always get triggered with my votes? Besides you voted Marth up, where do you think he should be?

He said it was a counter-vote.

There are better characters below Marth already imo + he is too far away from his clone.

Which characters are better than Marth that are below him? Corrin? Captain Falcon? Ness? I think Marth is clearly better than all three of those. And you could just vote other characters up (like Toon Link and Mega Man). And Lucina being tier 4 (Lower High tier) and Marth being tier 3 (Upper High tier) is too far away? Lucina might be near the top of tier 3 and Marth near the bottom of tier 2, we don't really know yet. Anyway, I think the case for why Marth is really good has been made, over and over, so I won't make it again.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Hmm? What about Diddy? I simply don't think he is the best, even Zero doesn't think he is number 1. Do you question his opinions too?

Must you not always get triggered with my votes? Besides you voted Marth up, where do you think he should be? There are better characters below Marth already imo + he is too far away from his clone.

E: Actually Diddy is not gonna move anywhere anytime soon so I replace him with a +

Your -1 Diddy vote signals that you think Diddy is in tier 2, not tier 1, which I'm 100% positive I'm not alone in thinking, that this is extremely odd.

I do hope you remember that characters are not ordered in tiers, right? So, like, a -1 Diddy vote wouldn't move him down just 1 space; it would move him down a whole tier (admittedly, not your vote alone, but why waste a vote on something like this?).

If you aren't sure on the rules, read here:

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

 

[Frihetsanka]

The tier list is starting to look really good! A few characters still need to move up to tier 2, so I'll be voting for them (3 characters). That leaves me with two more votes. Tier 3 looks really good, as does tier 4. 5 is pretty good as well, and while I'm not sure if Samus really deserves to be there, I don't feel strongly enough to vote her down again (she moved down to tier 6 only to move up to tier 5 the following round). Duck Hunt is, I believe, somewhat underrated. I've seen some Japanese Duck Hunt players play Duck Hunt quite well.

My current votes:
+1 (Ryu should be Upper High tier.)
+1 (Mega Man should be Upper High tier.)
+1 (Toon Link should probably be Upper High tier.)
+1 (Duck Hunt is somewhat underrated; DH is not significantly worse than other tier 5 characters.)

I'll save my last vote for now.

Edit:
+1 (Counter-vote to keep Ness in tier 3.)

 

[MarioManTAW]

-
-
-
+
+

 

[AlexJ15]

+1
+1
-1
-1
-1

 

[TDK]

+1
+1
-1
-1
-1

Do you not think Fox is top 10 and think Cloud deserves his own tier? These aren't ranked in order in their tiers, so if you're trying to move Cloud ahead of Fox/to first then we'll be doing that later?

 

[AlexJ15]

Do you not think Fox is top 10 and think Cloud deserves his own tier? These aren't ranked in order in their tiers, so if you're trying to move Cloud ahead of Fox/to first then we'll be doing that later?

Did I vote correctly? When I was voting, I put as -1 because I don't think he is top 3. He is definitely top 10. should not have his own tier. I just think that he should move up one or two spots. When I read the instructions for voting, it said to move a character up/down one spot they need +/-3 votes. I'm new here, so I probably made a mistake when voting. Sorry.

 

[Munomario777]

Did I vote correctly? When I was voting, I put as -1 because I don't think he is top 3. He is definitely top 10. should not have his own tier. I just think that he should move up one or two spots. When I read the instructions for voting, it said to move a character up/down one spot they need +/-3 votes. I'm new here, so I probably made a mistake when voting. Sorry.

In this phase of voting, we're voting for the tier each character is in. So three -1 votes for Fox would bump him down to tier 2. Ordering within tiers will come later.

 

[Wintermelon43]

What else do we have to do to get people to understand the tiers aren't ordered...........

 

[Bowserboy3]

Did I vote correctly? When I was voting, I put as -1 because I don't think he is top 3. He is definitely top 10. should not have his own tier. I just think that he should move up one or two spots. When I read the instructions for voting, it said to move a character up/down one spot they need +/-3 votes. I'm new here, so I probably made a mistake when voting. Sorry.

Ahh, slight mix up here.

Right now, we are voting characters for their tier ranking, not their individual placements.

No character on the list is officially ordered at this point in time. Taking your example, is not necessarily 3rd on the list, as again, no characters ordered within their tiers.

+ votes and - votes are used to vote characters up and down in their tiers. For example, while Fox looks like he's in 3rd (he isn't, as explained above), if he got say, -3, he wouldn't go down 3 spaces in the tier, he would go down 1 whole tier, essentially to tier 2.

If for example, you think, I dunno, should be a tier higher, you would use an + vote on him. If say, you think is fine in his tier, but should be higher within it, don't worry, because we will get to the ordering within tiers phase later down the line.

For example, I feel is a tier 2 character. However, I don't really think he's 11th (which is where he just happens to be right now, purely by chance). As such, I won't be downvoting him, because downvotes at this stage would be used to move characters down tiers. As such, I have nothing to worry about at this instance, and I'll wait until we get to voting on tier ordering and share my opinion there.

Here's a re-cap of the rules:

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

If you want to go back and change your votes, please feel free. You aren't locked into what you say the first time; you can chop and change your votes as many times as you like before I update the list (I usually give everyone a days warning as to when I will update, as well as another warning when I am actually updating). And please, continue to vote in later rounds; all votes are appreciated!

Though I do appreciate if you do change your votes later down the line, that you leave a new post informing me AS WELL as updating your original post; this just makes keeping track of the votes far easier for me. Also, thanks to you all who picked up on this, much appreciated!

 

[AlexJ15]

Ahh, slight mix up here.

Right now, we are voting characters for their tier ranking, not their individual placements.

Right now, no character on the list is officially ordered. Taking your example, is not necessarily 3rd on the list, as characters are not ordered in tiers right now.

+ votes and - votes are used to vote characters up and down in their tiers. For example, while Fox looks like he's in 3rd (he isn't, as explained above), if he got say, -3, he wouldn't go down 3 spaces in the tier, he would go down 1 whole tier, essentially to tier 2.

If for example, you think, I dunno, Lucario should be a tier higher, you would use an + vote on him. If say, you think Link is fine in his tier, but should be higher within it, don't worry, because we will get to the ordering within tiers phase later down the line.

For example, I feel Marth is a tier 2 character. However, I don't really think he's 11th. As such, I won't be downvoting him, because he's in the tier I think he deserves to be in. I'll wait until we get to voting on tier ordering and then share my opinion there.

Here's a re-cap of the rules:

Spoiler: Rules

• You have 5 votes to play with. +1 and/or -1 up to 5 different characters.
• Characters are not ranked within tiers at this point. You are voting to establish their tiering position.
• Remember, it takes +/-3 to move a character 1 tier, and +/-10 to move them 2 tiers. No character can move more than 2 tiers during each phase.
• Please vote on the list at the time of voting. While you can vote based on what you like, things such as "X character will probably get votes later so I'm down voting now etc" isn't the best way to do it.
• and can be joined together to count as one vote if you vote for one or the other. However, you can still vote on them individually if you so desire.

An example vote:

+1
+1
-1
+1
-1

If you want to go back and change your votes, please feel free. You aren't locked into what you say the first time; you can chop and change your votes as many times as you like before I update the list (I usually give everyone a days warning as to when I will update, as well as another warning when I am actually updating).

Okay. I think I understand now.

This is my new vote:

-1
-1
-1
+1
+1

By the way, how do I delete this post I made:

+1
+1
-1
-1
-1

 

[Bowserboy3]

By the way, how do I delete this post I made?:

You can't delete it in a traditional sense.

You can however, go back to it, click the "Edit" option in the bottom left, and edit your post (be sure to click the orange "Save Changes" button after). You could just remove all of it, or put a "Strike Through" it all, or leave a message saying "Old" or "Count later post/votes"... whatever you like really.

Whatever you do, I'll be sure to count these votes as your current votes, so don't worry too much.

Also, don't feel you have to explain things to people (I can hazard a guess some people will ask you why you upvoted Roy). While discussion is good, just be sure to vote on who you feel should move. Unless you feel good enough to, don't change your votes on being pressured by people if you really think what you voted is fine. After all, the majority opinion wins in the long run.

 

[AlexJ15]

You can't delete it in a traditional sense.

You can however, go back to it, click the "Edit" option in the bottom left, and edit your post (be sure to click the orange "Save Changes" button after). You could just remove all of it, or put a "Strike Through" it all, or leave a message saying "Old" or "Count later post/votes"... whatever you like really.

Whatever you do, I'll be sure to count these votes as your current votes, so don't worry too much.

Also, don't feel you have to explain things to people (I can hazard a guess some people will ask you why you upvoted Roy). While discussion is good, just be sure to vote on who you feel should move. Unless you feel good enough to, don't change your votes on being pressured by people if you really think what you voted is fine. After all, the majority opinion wins in the long run.

Okay. Thanks.