Smashboards Community Voted Tier List: Version 4 COMPLETE! Break for a few months...

[Zerp]

Tier:

 

[Bowserboy3]

Tier:

I love how you joke about "trash" tier, yet you main one of the characters in said tier. You also aren't afraid of saying so, either.

I salute you, sir!

 

[Munomario777]

High-Mid and Low-Mid > High Mid and Low Mid > Upper Mid and Lower Mid > Mid (+) and Mid (-).

Main thing about Mid+ and Mid-, the way I see it, is they make the list less cluttered. The "Mid" is the part that sticks out immediately, as it's the only actual word – with Lower Mid and Upper Mid, the "Mid" is "hidden" by the word in front of it.

Additionally, it makes the groups of tiers more obvious. For example:

Top
High
Mid+
Mid
Mid-
Low
Bottom

Here, the repetition of the "Mid" at the very start of each line sets it apart as a clear "chunk" of mid-tier, making the list generally more readable.

 

[Knightmare369]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

 

[Frihetsanka]

Main thing about Mid+ and Mid-, the way I see it, is they make the list less cluttered. The "Mid" is the part that sticks out immediately, as it's the only actual word – with Lower Mid and Upper Mid, the "Mid" is "hidden" by the word in front of it.

This is true. On the other hand, High-Mid and Low-Mid are established terms and have been used for Smash tier lists for a long time. Either way I don't feel strongly about it, High-Mid, Upper Mid, and Mid+ all refer to the same tiers after all.

 

[jespoke]

Bottom tier:

I play both Guest and Guest as part of my pockets. 's game can work without specials. But 1111 Guest is just so unbelievably bad.

On the topic of tier names, Mid (+) and Mid (-) are fine by me

 

[TDK]

+1
+1
+1
+1
+1

We're past that, sorry. Now, we're trying to come up with an order for these characters:

Also please don't let Dedede move up, thanks.

 

[jespoke]

In honor of this round, i brought Garbrawler and Garblade out for some practice again.
It is just so... frustrating. has good tools like N-air and U-air, but also the worst jab in the game and lacks shield pressure. But 1111 Guest is 1/2 the tierlist below Guest (IMO) because he loses the 2 things that let him bypass his biggest issues as a character:

- Up-B 2 that covers for the fact that his damage output is low by giving him stupid kill power off grabs and reads.
- Down-B 2 that covers for his ****ty disadvantage and recovery by giving him a knock-off copy of the best disadvantage tool in the game, Flip Kick.

on the other hand is probably low/bottom tier even in his Guest form, due to all the little things like U-tilt's endlag, N-air and U-smash's hitboxes and other frame data issues. 1111 Guest piles on top of that, by limiting one of the things has going for it, the D-air edgeguard, with a ****ty Up-B.


Seriously, why do they both have way worse versions of Ike's already exploitable recovery in their 1 slot!?!?

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

I daresay, place just after . These two possess the best mobility of the bottom tiers. Also place & next to each other to reflect their slow-ass attack speed and lack of mobility. Owing to her most glaring flaws (eg. lack of combos, cannot approach at all) must switch places with . would also be placed just after since I think swordsman's frame data is somewhat better than , whom I'd place right after.

 

[lbrasz44]

None are moving up, this tier is perfectly repped by these characters.

 

[Routa]

Mobility is key in this game, but if you cannot abuse that mobility... well... waste of mobility specs.

As for Swordspider his ground game is one of the better ones in game due to his amazing D-tilt, top tier grab, good jab and 2nd quickest turnaround speed. He has 2 major flaws that keep Guest 1111 from jumping to higher tier: recovery and mobility. Recovery can be fixed by changing his Up-B, but there is no way to fix his poor mobility (dash and air mobility).

 

[Samuelwisebaggins]

+

 

[Djmarcus44]

I daresay, place just after . These two possess the best mobility of the bottom tiers. Also place & next to each other to reflect their slow-*** attack speed and lack of mobility. Owing to her most glaring flaws (eg. lack of combos, cannot approach at all) must switch places with . would also be placed just after since I think swordsman's frame data is somewhat better than , whom I'd place right after.

While 1111 Brawler has good mobility, the lack of range and options to force approaches really makes Brawler struggle in the neutral. In addition, the character has arguably the worst killing ability in the game (Brawler doesn't have many fast killing options, and what few moves that actually kill have a lot of endlag), and a poor disadvantage state (While Brawler has a combo breaker nair, Brawler has a poor recovery, and the character has to rely on stall then fall moves and aerials to land).

In honor of this round, i brought Garbrawler and Garblade out for some practice again.
It is just so... frustrating. has good tools like N-air and U-air, but also the worst jab in the game and lacks shield pressure. But 1111 Guest is 1/2 the tierlist below Guest (IMO) because he loses the 2 things that let him bypass his biggest issues as a character:

- Up-B 2 that covers for the fact that his damage output is low by giving him stupid kill power off grabs and reads.
- Down-B 2 that covers for his ****ty disadvantage and recovery by giving him a knock-off copy of the best disadvantage tool in the game, Flip Kick.

on the other hand is probably low/bottom tier even in his Guest form, due to all the little things like U-tilt's endlag, N-air and U-smash's hitboxes and other frame data issues. 1111 Guest piles on top of that, by limiting one of the things has going for it, the D-air edgeguard, with a ****ty Up-B.


Seriously, why do they both have way worse versions of Ike's already exploitable recovery in their 1 slot!?!?

Brawler's jab is pretty good because it isn't that bad on shield, and it is frame 2. Brawler also isn't bad against shield because the character has a decent amount of moves that are safe on shield when spaced properly, and Brawler has a good grab game.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

Well, isn't my analysis on an elementary level. might as well be between and , given the fighter's disadvantages y'all pointed out. Apparently, recovery for Fighter may be mitigated somewhat by making him/her smaller and maybe even lighter than default. Small/light yields an air speed exceeding . Side special 2 and up special 3 puts together optimal stage recovery for Fighter, but that's just me.

Then again, very few competitions allow customized Miis, so... for now, I'd place between and .

 

[jespoke]

Well, isn't my analysis on an elementary level. might as well be between and , given the fighter's disadvantages y'all pointed out. Apparently, recovery for Fighter may be mitigated somewhat by making him/her smaller and maybe even lighter than default. Small/light yields an air speed exceeding . Side special 2 and up special 3 puts together optimal stage recovery for Fighter, but that's just me.

Then again, very few competitions allow customized Miis, so... for now, I'd place between and .

Small is probably top tier, it is stupid. Guest i would rank Mid or Mid(-). Small 1111 is probably in that range too, though i have never seen it. But what we are voting on is 1111 Guest

 

[Kirby Dragons]

+

 

[Zerp]

I daresay, place just after . These two possess the best mobility of the bottom tiers. Also place & next to each other to reflect their slow-*** attack speed and lack of mobility. Owing to her most glaring flaws (eg. lack of combos, cannot approach at all) must switch places with . would also be placed just after since I think swordsman's frame data is somewhat better than , whom I'd place right after.

Well, isn't my analysis on an elementary level. might as well be between and , given the fighter's disadvantages y'all pointed out. Apparently, recovery for Fighter may be mitigated somewhat by making him/her smaller and maybe even lighter than default. Small/light yields an air speed exceeding . Side special 2 and up special 3 puts together optimal stage recovery for Fighter, but that's just me.

Then again, very few competitions allow customized Miis, so... for now, I'd place between and .

So, for when Bowserboy is counting up votes, would this be the correct order for your vote? --->?

I'm asking this because I don't think he'd be able to count your vote if it isn't formatted as a row of those 6 characters.

 

[Lola Luftnagle]

So, for when Bowserboy is counting up votes, would this be the correct order for your vote? --->?

I'm asking this because I don't think he'd be able to count your vote if it isn't formatted as a row of those 6 characters.

Oh, sweet color-cycling niblets! I had to give my opinionated votes in that format? Y'all have to excuse me for that. And to answer your question, is indeed the order for my vote.

 

[QualityQ]

with a noticeable amount of up votes

Can you clarify on this? I'd throw in a downvote if need-be; I don't think any characters here should be moved up to low.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

+1

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

EDIT: +1 To help combat the Dedede upvotes and try to ensure that no character moves up.

I think a lot of you seem to forget that Zelda has done significantly more for herself recently than the other characters. At the UGC Low Tier tournament, for instance, Nairo was able to win with almost all Zelda, with the only other character in this tier in top 8 being Zguh's Jigglypuff. Perhaps that was because Nairo, but that's still a better result. Also, I can't seem to find it now, but I remember that a Japanese Zelda player recently did really well in a Japanese tournament.

I'm not saying any characters should move up, but rather justifying the order I put them in this tier.

I'm still conflicted with the order of Ganondorf and Jigglypuff, but I've put Ganon higher for now because of familiarity.

Added a +1 to , not to try to move her up, but to help combat the Dedede upvotes so there is no clear frontrunner and thus no characters move up.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Added a +1 to , not to try to move her up, but to help combat the Dedede upvotes so there is no clear frontrunner and thus no characters move up.

Or you could just vote Dedede down, I suppose. I think more than one character should be able to move up per round anyway, at least 2-4 in high-mid tier deserve to be high tier.

And 4-7 characters currently in mid tier deserve to be high-mid tier (in my opinion).

Next time I think the tier names should be decided in advance. I counter-voted Olimar because I didn't think he should be in high tier, but had I known tier 3 would be high-mid tier this time I would've voted him up (and a few others).

Edit: It seems clear to me that the majority of people don't want to move anyone up this round. I thus withdraw my King Dedede upvote.

 

[Bowserboy3]

Next time I think the tier names should be decided in advance. I counter-voted Olimar because I didn't think he should be in high tier, but had I known tier 3 would be high-mid tier this time I would've voted him up (and a few others).

Two flaws to this arguement.

1) We can't name tiers in a round where a new tier can be created at any moment. What happens when some characters in the top tier move up even higher? If Olimar is in an imaginary "High tier" for example, when a few characters in the "Top tier" move up even further, where does that put him? This is part of the reason why we set names afterwards.

2) This is why I kept stressing the fact that tier names were not a thing; it's your own fault for assuming your own personal tier names. The first voting rounds are merely to separate the characters out into noticeable splits.

Alas, characters can still move, so don't worry. If you want Olimar up later, just vote him up later on.

---

And also, take note of this quote:

Characters with a noticeable amount of up votes will move up or down to the next tier.

That statement may be misleading. Still only one character per tier will move during this phase. The list is not that big of a mess that multiple characters need to move. That's what the other rounds were for.

 

[Wintermelon43]

This is why I kept stressing the fact that tier names were not a thing; it's your own fault for assuming your own personal tier names.

ORDERING BOTTOM TIER

 

[Frihetsanka]

1) We can't name tiers in a round where a new tier can be created at any moment. What happens when some characters in the top tier move up even higher? If Olimar is in an imaginary "High tier" for example, when a few characters in the "Top tier" move up even further, where does that put him? This is part of the reason why we set names afterwards.

We should have spent at least one round voting after the names were set, though. Or we could vote on number of tiers and then names and then place characters. It's not like we have to do it the same way just because that was the way it was done before. I don't believe the current way is ideal, chances are we're going to end up with a somewhat flawed tier list (in this case, characters will end up lower

2) This is why I kept stressing the fact that tier names were not a thing; it's your own fault for assuming your own personal tier names. The first voting rounds are merely to separate the characters out into noticeable splits.

Frankly, either stick with the "no tier names" rule and never name them or name them earlier. I think we should've named them way earlier, we named them too late and had people vote based on their perception and it got kind of strange.

Alas, characters can still move, so don't worry. If you want Olimar up later, just vote him up later on.

I want Olimar, Robin, Donkey Kong, and Bowser up. They all have done pretty good at majors (with Dabuz, Dath, Nairo, and Larry Lurr to name a few) and their theory is good enough to warrant high-mid tier, in my opinion. It seems unlikely we'll end up moving all of them up though, so the tier list will be less optimistic than I think is warranted.

The list is not that big of a mess that multiple characters need to move. That's what the other rounds were for.

I disagree. Too many characters are placed too low (although it's possible I'm being too optimistic, although I think the tier list right now is more pessimistic than both the 4BR and ZeRo's tier list).

Quite frankly, we spent a lot of time before tier names were decided doing very little. Now that tier names have been decided and they're different from what a non-insignificant minority thought they would be, we can't even spend 3-4 days voting one more time? I don't see the rush in ordering tiers right now. We could spend a few days voting a few characters up and/or or down and then order the tiers. This could significantly improve the tier list (or maybe it won't, but at least people will have been given a chance to vote).

 

[Deleted member]

 

[_Jack_]

Bottom Tier:

Explainations:

Spoiler

Mii Brawler is hands down the worst character in this game. His range is awful, he has a horrible approach, his grab game is pretty bad, and his recovery makes Little Mac laugh. Sure, he has fast attacks and a decent combo ability but, in all honesty, who cares? This is a game where brawler characters like Mario, Sheik, and Diddy Kong are among the very best in the game. They have even better combo games and their weaknesses are, in no way, as severe as Brawler's. There is no reason to use Brawler competitively when characters like these exist (unless you just like the character, itself). The fact that the touchy issue Mii legality has basically just been swept under the rug because nobody could reach a reasonable conclusion with them isn't helping things either.

Mii Swordfighter... Oh my... Just like Mii Brawler is outclassed by every other Brawler in the game, Mii Swordfighter is outclassed by every other swordsman in the game. His range is absolutely pitiful when compared to other swordsmen, especially Shulk and Cloud. In traditional swordsman fashion (unless your name is Cloud), his frame data is pretty bad, which really hurts him considering how poor his range is for a swordsman character. While most swordsmen have a lot of power going for them, Mii Swordfighter is surprisingly (or unsurprisingly) lacking in that, too. Combine that with a horrible recovery and one of the worst approaches in the entire game and you have yourself the second worst character in the game.

When Miis aren't counted, Jigglypuff is hands down the worst character in the game. For everything she can do, there's another character that can do it better. Her air game is heavily outclassed by characters like Cloud and Ness. Her mobility is outclassed by many of the top tiers. Her edgeguarding ability is outclassed by characters like Sheik and Marth. Heck, even her trump card of Rest is mediocre at best and is heavily outclassed by Finishing Touch and even KO Punch. In addition to that, nearly all of her weaknesses from Brawl have remained and her representation and results are next to non-existent.

Poor Zelda can't seem to catch a break. She's been awful in every Smash game. However, when your jab comes out at Frame 11 and has a hitbox the size of a snowflake, what can you expect? Zelda is the definition of flawed. Her hitboxes are awful, with a majority of her moves flat out whiffing when the animation clearly shows they're hitting. Her mobility is some of the worst in the entire game. Her specials range from mediocre to absolute garbage. Nayru's Love is an underwhelming reflector considering the other options available. Din's Fire is a total joke. It's down there with Bowser Jr.'s cannon ball as one of the worst projectiles in the game. Farore's Wind is a decent recovery move and it has the unique perk of comboing into itself and killing really early. However, unlike most other "low tier jank", everybody knows that this move does this and they're not goint to fall for it. Phantom is just plan awful. It's weak, takes forever to charge, and you can't even hold the charge. Zelda is the epitome of Murphy's law. Everything that can go wrong, will go wrong.

King Dedede's lack of viability from Brawl to Smash 4 is due to three reasons: one, his grab game got nerfed, he got a new back air, and he was made even slower. The only good thing about Dedede is that his recovery is extremely good. This means that, due to his weight, he arguably has the best survivability in the entire game. However, that doesn't really matter when he can't make use of that survivability. His mobility is crap, his neutral is horrible, and he's a punching bag. His insane strength is unusable in competitive play due to how his strongest moves are some of the laggiest in the entire game. He has next to no representation and results. If it weren't for the fact that he does "better" in Europe, one could argue he's the worst character in the game.

Ganondorf is, by far, the best bottom tier character. It's not enough to justify voting to move him up a tier, but there's a considerable gap between him and Dedede. Ganondorf still is very flawed. His mobility is some of the worst in the game, his frame data is poor, his grab game is horrible, his recovery is one of the worst in the game, and he lacks much in terms of combos. However, Ganondorf has some surprisingly good tools in his kit that allow him to be able to compete with low tiers and even arguably mid tiers significantly better than any of his fellow bottom tiers could ever hope to. Flame Choke is a pretty good move. It compensates for Ganondorf's lacking grab game and, with good reads, can repeatedly "chaingrab" opponents. His aerials also are better than they seem. For example, BAir is pretty quick and very strong and his infamous DAir is insanely powerful with a lot less ending lag than one would think. The real flaw of Ganondorf comes from the fact that his mobility is so bad, causing him to have to rely on heavy reads and stray hits instead of combos. As a result, while Ganon can compete with the low tiers and, to an extent, the mid tiers, anyone above is just going to be able to abuse his weakenesses to the point where he can't really do anything.

 

[Routa]

I just want to point out that Ganondorf has some really strong and short combos at lowish %. Good example is Dash Attack -> Uair and D-throw -> Wizzkick. Thous deal a lot of damage for very short combos.

Aaand Swordspider has one of the best groundgames out of sword users. Aaaand he is not lacking in killpower. He helds best Uair in terms of killpower and his Bair and Smashes are relatively fast and safe in comparison to other characters that are in the same tier or couple tiers above. The issue is that they are not that easy to land due to poor mobility.

Aaaaaaand Brawler has really solid combo game. His locks are one of the best in game and he can get a grab relatively easy. Stuff like 1st hit Fair and D-throw -> footstool -> late hit Nair lead into guaranteed grab. Would like to add that Brawler (like all Miis) have top tier grab data so there is that.

Just some things I wanted to point out.

 

[jespoke]

When Ganondorf actually gets to hit people he is fairly good, the problem is that he never does. Also doesn't help that his combo starters are either horrible on shield or the grab of a character who runs at 2 km/h.

 

[Bowserboy3]

I'll be updating this in a couple of days time, just as your warning if you wanted to edit votes, or if you are yet to vote.

Also Wintermelon43 , I'm not sure what that last post with my quotes is meant to establish. The first quote is me explaining that in previous rounds, tiers had no names, because in effect, there were no real "tiers". Quoting me saying "ORDERING BOTTOM TIER" isn't establishing anything because the names were decided well after that.

 

[L1N3R1D3R]

EDIT 1: +1 To help combat the Dedede upvotes and try to ensure that no character moves up.
EDIT 2: Swapped and .

I think a lot of you seem to forget that Zelda has done significantly more for herself recently than the other characters. At the UGC Low Tier tournament, for instance, Nairo was able to win with almost all Zelda, with the only other character in this tier in top 8 being Zguh's Jigglypuff. Perhaps that was because Nairo, but that's still a better result. Also, I can't seem to find it now, but I remember that a Japanese Zelda player recently did really well in a Japanese tournament.

I'm not saying any characters should move up, but rather justifying the order I put them in this tier.

I'm still conflicted with the order of Ganondorf and Jigglypuff, but I've put Ganon higher for now because of familiarity.

Swapped Ganon and Dedede.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

Honestly these characters make up the lowest tier so one deserve to move up. Zelda has,imo, the best theory and results of these characters which is why she edges out.

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATING...

 

[Bowserboy3]

UPDATED

Just a few notes for those interested:

• No character had a clear cut margin of + votes to warrant moving up a tier; Dedede had 1 more + vote than Zelda (4 votes as opposed to 3), but it's an extremely small amount of votes (4 votes out of a total of 22).
• Dedede had the highest overall average placement, which is why he's at the top (obviously), and unfortunately, Mii Brawler had far and away the lowest average placement.

Now we can move onto the Low Tier!

Spoiler: Rules

With the naming phase out of the way, we can focus on each individual tier. In these rounds, we go one tier at a time and settle on a proper order for the characters.

What's more, during these rounds, you can even vote to move ONE character Up or Down a tier (new tiers will not be created at the top or the bottom).

With Bottom Tier voted and locked, we can move onto the Low Tier:

Low Tier:

Your vote can be these characters in whatever order you like. For example, you can have Samus at the top, the 2nd place, the last place, wherever you like. Just be sure not to add or remove characters in this tier.

As an example, here is my personal vote.

Low Tier:
+1

As I feel Samus deserves to move up to the next tier, I placed her at the top of this tier, and gave her my + vote. I do feel that Mii Gunner should move down too, but we only get one + or - vote, so I stuck with Samus. You're free to + vote or - vote any character you like from this tier.

The character with the a noticeable amount of + or - votes will move up or down to the next tier. However, they cannot be voted upon in the next round, and will be left in a set of brackets to symbolise this: ( ).

Again, here's my vote:

Low Tier:
+1

 

[Deleted member]

 

[Nidtendofreak]

While its in the OP, maybe the next time we move onto the next tier show what the previous tier ended up looking like in the update post. Just a bit easier to find that way.

Anyhow:



-1


I gave the edge to Roy, simply because I feel he has the most use as a surprise pocket character, and I believe Samus is more riding a wave rather than her actually being higher on the tier list than she currently is.

EDIT: Made a few changes.

 

[Zerp]

Slightly less depressing Tier:
-1

 

[Bowserboy3]

-1

It looks like you forgot pal.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

+ It was a six-way tie from Doc to Wii Fit since I believe they're all worthy of mid tier, but since that's not the case I decided to go with the character I knew the most about.

I honestly think Doc is good enough to be middle of mid tier, but his lack of representation (As well as people still having the "just pick Mario") mentality [Though the same could be said about Roy to Marth] is what's holding him back.

 

[Wintermelon43]

lol at Ganon above Jigglypuff.

Anyway....


+1 (Kirby is defitenly above the rest here. He's a great counterpick character, going even with , even or slightly winning with , and beats . He has a terrible matchup with , but everyone in this tier has at least one terrible matchup, and they don't don't have as much good counterpicks. He doesn't have many results, but almost every character in this tier also has bad results, and Mikekirby does really well when he attends a tournament (Which isn't often at all). I don't see how Kirby could be paired with these characters at all.)

Edit:Godangit Nidtendofreak I trusted you and you were missing one

Edit2:Changed my vote a little bit