Smash Ultimate Speculation Chart (UPDATES DESPERATELY NEEDED; AEM MISSING)

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Easily dark Samus is a speculation for echo fighter

no assist trophy so far and the alts for Samus

https://mobile.twitter.com/Shinesparkers/status/1007353251988148224

None of them are dark Samus the most particular one is the black one with yellow lights and vizor instead of the iconic phazon blue

That alt in smash 4 so it kind of Felton's like playing as dark samus

 

[Deleted member]

It could easily just be coincidence, considering other characters lost palettes between Smash 4 and the demo for Ultimate from what we've seen.
That, and there might be extras considering Meta Ridley was seen as an alt but was not available in the demo as one of Ridley's palette swaps.

But Dark Samus will definitely be added as a possible Echo option for sure.

 

[AlphaSSB]

If suggestions are open, I highly suggest Slippy be added.

With Krystal deconfirmed, Slippy is now the frontrunner for a Star Fox newcomer. His importance to the series is obvious, having been in every Star Fox title. He was even the star of his own spin-off game, Star Fox Guard.

Moveset wise, Slippy actually has a lot to work with. There's various gadgets and weaponry across the Star Fox series he could use, but I think his moveset would pull mostly from Star Fox: Assault and Star Fox Guard. If you'd like some more clarity with a potential moveset for him, I've got one for him below.

Spoiler: Slippy Toad Moveset

In all, I feel Slippy's chances are often underestimated, even if they still aren't particularly high.

 

[Deleted member]

Borrowing this from the Graveyard thread



And most important for this thread,



And to all that I'd add, that with Echo characters being a thing, we should consider characters that are close in design and abilities to the originals. For example, Hilda for Zelda (or with her staff, maybe Palutena?), Plusle and Minum for Pichu, Funky Kong and Kiddy Kong for DK, Medusa for Palutena, Black Shadow for Captain Falcon (I know Ganondorf got his sword out but you never know Sakurai) and Chrom for Ike (bringing that Palutena's Guidance full circle.)

Echos have to have the same basic stats and attack animations. The attacks don't need to be exactly the same in properties or in aesthetics, but they have to visually be the same attack overall.
So options like Plusle and Minun, Black Shadow, and Medusa are completely out of the running.

Others will be on a case-by-case basis on whether they truly fit or not.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Echos have to have the same basic stats and attack animations. The attacks don't need to be exactly the same in properties or in aesthetics, but they have to visually be the same attack overall.
So options like Plusle and Minun, Black Shadow, and Medusa are completely out of the running.

Others will be on a case-by-case basis on whether they truly fit or not.

I see what you're saying for Plusle & Minum (proportions don't quite match either of the current electric mice) and Black Shadow (is a biiiiig boy) but why not for Medusa?

 

[splat]

I see what you're saying for Plusle & Minum (proportions don't quite match either of the current electric mice) and Black Shadow (is a biiiiig boy) but why not for Medusa?

First thought I had was the lack of wings for Medusa. We haven't really seen the moves where she uses those in action though - so that might not be it.

I think the main culprit here is the hair. Palutena's model is probably (haven't seen the model outside of the game) animated with additional bones for her hair, so they can make it seem like it flows around fairly naturally. Medusa, on the other hand has snakes for hair, which would need a different bone structure in order to animate them. If they'd use Palutena's skeleton it would just look like Medusa has a tonne of dead snakes on her head.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

First thought I had was the lack of wings for Medusa. We haven't really seen the moves where she uses those in action though - so that might not be it.

I think the main culprit here is the hair. Palutena's model is probably (haven't seen the model outside of the game) animated with additional bones for her hair, so they can make it seem like it flows around fairly naturally. Medusa, on the other hand has snakes for hair, which would need a different bone structure in order to animate them. If they'd use Palutena's skeleton it would just look like Medusa has a tonne of dead snakes on her head.

I don't think it's animation that's the problem holding back Echos (Daisy's got a whole new set), it's the game balance of which size is a big part of. I don't think Palutena's hair has a hitbox so it'd be a moot point.

 

[splat]

I don't think it's animation that's the problem holding back Echos (Daisy's got a whole new set), it's the game balance of which size is a big part of. I don't think Palutena's hair has a hitbox so it'd be a moot point.

It's not about the animations. It's about the fact that Medusa cannot use Palutena's skeleton.
I'm not sure how well versed you are in 3D models, but let me explain with the following image.

These colored lines inside Hulk are bones that are used to animate the model. Every part that needs to be animated seperately needs a seperate bone. Hulk has short hair, so there isn't really a need to animate his hair, but extremities like fingers (see how there are bones for each finger), tails or long hair tend to have animation bones to animate those parts as well. Palutena probably has a few, but as her hair is 'curtainy' (in that you never see loose strains) there's probably not too much. Medusa, on the other hand, needs these bones to make the snakes come alive and be as creepy as they were in Uprising.
So while Palutena's flowing hair is probably fine with a bone structure similar to Hulk's pelvis area, Medusa's snakes need a bone structure that is more like Hulk's hands.

This means that Medusa cannot use Palutena's skeleton, and that all of her animations need to be redone.

Echo fighters are meant to be a simple addition, rigging a model to an existing skeleton with some minor balance tweaks and a few new animations (mostly the flavor animations like idle stances, taunts and vistory poses). Medusa is way out of scope to work as an echo.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Again, I really think the dev problem isn't the animation and rigging, it's game balance.

Another animation set is just that, another animation set. A lot of work, sure but it's as much work as any other character, if not less so as they have a template to go off of. A new moveset means it has to be balanced against every existing moveset in the game making the effort exponential.

Side note: Even though she doesn't go so in game, it wouldn't be out of place for Medusa to summon black angel wings or bat wings to do smash attacks

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

Well going to this

http://www.nintendolife.com/news/20...oy_purchase_is_related_to_his_current_project

I know it's a new game but could potential hiding it as smash but not likely

Base on what the figure looks like

Ray- custom robo
Mach rider - retro

Perhaps?

 

[Raisunn]

Predicted Characters: Minecraft Steve (Alex as a Alt), Upcoming Switch Game Pokemon Rep, Geno (Mario RPG),
New Fire Emblem Rep, Shadow the Hedgehog (Semi-Clone).
Grey Fox from Metal Gear will still be a Assist Trophy.
a Minecraft Stage (Plains Biome Maybe).
Undertale Trophies and Music, no Characters.
Miiverse will get the boot (be cut)
Undertale Stage (The Ruins)
Radical Highway from SA2 will be a stage.
DLC will come back as a Feature (Most of Characters above maybe DLC).
More DLC than Last Game.
Target Test is Back.
Board the Platforms is back too.
Event Match is returning.
Target Blast and Smash Tour will be Cut.
Smash Run will return.
Subspace will be DLC Possibly.
Game will be Rated Teen.

 

[Mikeduke324]

I really want the excitebike guy, but since Wario has a lot of bike based moves I doubt it’ll happen. I also think we’ll get some Minecraft trophies, just saying.

Easily dark Samus is a speculation for echo fighter

no assist trophy so far and the alts for Samus

https://mobile.twitter.com/Shinesparkers/status/1007353251988148224

None of them are dark Samus the most particular one is the black one with yellow lights and vizor instead of the iconic phazon blue

That alt in smash 4 so it kind of Felton's like playing as dark samus

I believe many people were saying that ‘prime ribs’ in that 4chan leak from a week or two ago could be dark samus. I’m not sure how reputable that is, though.

 

[Deleted member]

Charts have been (mostly) updated to reflect everything that we currently know about Ultimate.
Still a few edits need to be done for what's already there.

But in the meantime, we're going to take suggestions for the charts into heavy consideration as we make some more updates. We will be going with one or two charts at a time for suggestions though.

Starting with Chart 1: Mario and Co. and Chart 2: Famicom Disk System Franchises
We swapped out Toad for Captain Toad because regular Toads have been outright disconfirmed, leaving Captain Toad the only "option" left for that slot.

Current changes already up for consideration for Chart 1:
-None so far

Current changes already up for consideration for Chart 2:
-Fixing Young Link's name (we already know about this error)
-Add BotW Zelda as an alt for Zelda (the original GameFaqs leaker for things we saw in Ultimate at E3 stated that Zelda would have a BotW Zelda alt)
-Add the Champions? (This one is up for debate now that we know Ultimate is being more diverse in representing the whole Zelda franchise)
-Add Impa
-Add Skull Kid
-Add Toon Zelda
-Add Tetra
-Add Hilda as potential Zelda Echo
-Possibly separate the Zelda characters into their own chart if there is an excess amount
-Add Dark Samus as potential Samus Echo

Any other suggestions are welcome, but there are no guarantees they will actually be added to the chart.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Any other suggestions are welcome, but there are no guarantees they will actually be added to the chart.

I'm surprised you didn't put Buzzwole in the list.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm surprised you didn't put Buzzwole in the list.

When this was initially drafted, I specifically left Buzzwole out along with a few other Pokémon because I felt we already had an excess amount of "options" from Gen 7.

Rest assured, Buzzwole will be under consideration for the update when we get to Pokémon.

But right now, we're only doing:
-Super Mario
-Donkey Kong
-Yoshi's Island
-Wario
-Legend of Zelda
-Metroid
-other Famicom Disk System originated franchises

 

[Opossum]

Charts have been (mostly) updated to reflect everything that we currently know about Ultimate.
Still a few edits need to be done for what's already there.

But in the meantime, we're going to take suggestions for the charts into heavy consideration as we make some more updates. We will be going with one or two charts at a time for suggestions though.

Starting with Chart 1: Mario and Co. and Chart 2: Famicom Disk System Franchises
We swapped out Toad for Captain Toad because regular Toads have been outright disconfirmed, leaving Captain Toad the only "option" left for that slot.

Current changes already up for consideration for Chart 1:
-None so far

Current changes already up for consideration for Chart 2:
-Fixing Young Link's name (we already know about this error)
-Add BotW Zelda as an alt for Zelda (the original GameFaqs leaker for things we saw in Ultimate at E3 stated that Zelda would have a BotW Zelda alt)
-Add the Champions? (This one is up for debate now that we know Ultimate is being more diverse in representing the whole Zelda franchise)
-Add Impa
-Add Skull Kid
-Add Toon Zelda
-Add Tetra
-Add Hilda as potential Zelda Echo
-Possibly separate the Zelda characters into their own chart if there is an excess amount
-Add Dark Samus as potential Samus Echo

Any other suggestions are welcome, but there are no guarantees they will actually be added to the chart.

Personally I'm still game for adding the Champions to the chart for the reasons you said. Plus Vah Rudania isn't seen on Death Mountain so clearly that means Daruk is in.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Plus Vah Rudania isn't seen on Death Mountain so clearly that means Daruk is in.

Don't you dare make me cling on to false hopes concerning best Champion!

 

[Deleted member]

Personally I'm still game for adding the Champions to the chart for the reasons you said. Plus Vah Rudania isn't seen on Death Mountain so clearly that means Daruk is in.

Well, unless you're referring to an earlier post of mine, what I said here is actually something not in favor of them.
What I mean by "This one is up for debate now that we know Ultimate is being more diverse in representing the whole Zelda franchise" is that the Champions might not be added to the chart after all since we now know that the Zelda characters (sans Toon Link of course) aren't unified by a single game such as BotW, and instead reflect several games in the franchise and becoming more diverse in general. Thus newcomers aren't necessarily limited to whoever was in BotW like we initially believed.

They still could be added, but it's something AEM and I will have to think about.

 

[Opossum]

Well, unless you're referring to an earlier post of mine, what I said here is actually something not in favor of them.
What I mean by "This one is up for debate now that we know Ultimate is being more diverse in representing the whole Zelda franchise" is that the Champions might not be added to the chart after all since we now know that the Zelda characters (sans Toon Link of course) aren't unified by a single game such as BotW, and instead reflect several games in the franchise and becoming more diverse in general. Thus newcomers aren't necessarily limited to whoever was in BotW like we initially believed.

They still could be added, but it's something AEM and I will have to think about.

Honestly I've been going back and forth with myself on the same issue, haha. The main reason I think they still have merit is the fact that, as Champions, they are literally representative of their races, with three of the four being incredibly reoccurring (though this doesn't really work for Urbosa for obvious reasons ). I could see Sakurai adding Mipha or Daruk, for example, to showcase Zoras and Gorons in general, for example.

I feel they have an outside shot, since I'm not confident we'll be getting a Zelda newcomer, but out of the available options I think the Champions and Skull Kid have the best odds.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

I'd add Nitnen as a possible Echo.

We've got stages for Beginnings, earthbound and Mother 3 in the game already so they may decide "why not" to it.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd add Nitnen as a possible Echo.

We've got stages for Beginnings, earthbound and Mother 3 in the game already so they may decide "why not" to it.

But right now, we're only doing:
-Super Mario
-Donkey Kong
-Yoshi's Island
-Wario
-Legend of Zelda
-Metroid
-other Famicom Disk System originated franchises

No other series are being looked at right now.
We will take suggestions for Earthbound when we're taking suggestions for the following chart.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Anthony Higgs :^)

 

[Guybrush20X6]

No other series are being looked at right now.
We will take suggestions for Earthbound when we're taking suggestions for the following chart.

Ah, thought the Famicom stuff was all one and the same. My bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Ah, thought the Famicom stuff was all one and the same. My bad.

Yeah, it may be a bit confusing, but we've split series that started on the Japanese exclusive Disk System from the ones that started on the main cartridge system that we know outside Japan as the NES.

 

[BandanaDeemon]

Galactic knight is an alt and (maybe I didn’t see)he doesn’t have the gold background

 

[splat]

Galactic knight is an alt and (maybe I didn’t see)he doesn’t have the gold background

Not an alt, just a costume. While it does have to changed mask shape, it does not have Galacta's horns, lance or shield.

In regards to the charts, I think you've tackled everything with the additions you've mention above. I could make a case for the Federation Force Marine as well, though with the game flopping like it did I doubt people would go insane should they be added.

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Don't know how long it's taken me to notice, but the title is misspelled as "Ulitmate" instead of "Ultimate"

 

[Smashoperatingbuddy123]

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76848606

Vergeben is back and saids Simon is still in and Isabella gets promoted from assist to playable

 

[Deleted member]

Don't know how long it's taken me to notice, but the title is misspelled as "Ulitmate" instead of "Ultimate"

..........

YOU SAW NOTHING.

https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/boards/234547-super-smash-bros-ultimate/76848606

Vergeben is back and saids Simon is still in and Isabella gets promoted from assist to playable

Considering both Simon and Isabelle are already on the chart, this doesn't change anything, really.
This isn't a general rumor discussion thread. :/

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Begging your pardon, but shouldn't we be striking Captain Toad from the list due to him being spotted on the New Donk City stage? Unless of course, you're pleading the Alfonso treatment?

 

[Guybrush20X6]

Begging your pardon, but shouldn't we be striking Captain Toad from the list due to him being spotted on the New Donk City stage? Unless of course, you're pleading the Alfonso treatment?

Toadette: Leave it to me!

 

[Deleted member]

Begging your pardon, but shouldn't we be striking Captain Toad from the list due to him being spotted on the New Donk City stage? Unless of course, you're pleading the Alfonso treatment?

Chart hadn't even been updated yet with the Smash Direct stuff.

There's been a delay.

 

[Aurora Jenny]

Huh, okay, right, hasn't been updated for the new Direct info. All right, my statement is withdrawn. I hadn't noticed.

 

[Mgl]

Might as well mark steve as confirmed, cause theres no chance my boi's not getting in

 

[Deleted member]

Might as well mark steve as confirmed, cause theres no chance my boi's not getting in

That is not how this works.

Characters will only get marked as confirmed when they are confirmed.

 

[Crainy]

It's not about the animations. It's about the fact that Medusa cannot use Palutena's skeleton.
I'm not sure how well versed you are in 3D models, but let me explain with the following image.

These colored lines inside Hulk are bones that are used to animate the model. Every part that needs to be animated seperately needs a seperate bone. Hulk has short hair, so there isn't really a need to animate his hair, but extremities like fingers (see how there are bones for each finger), tails or long hair tend to have animation bones to animate those parts as well. Palutena probably has a few, but as her hair is 'curtainy' (in that you never see loose strains) there's probably not too much. Medusa, on the other hand, needs these bones to make the snakes come alive and be as creepy as they were in Uprising.
So while Palutena's flowing hair is probably fine with a bone structure similar to Hulk's pelvis area, Medusa's snakes need a bone structure that is more like Hulk's hands.

This means that Medusa cannot use Palutena's skeleton, and that all of her animations need to be redone.

Echo fighters are meant to be a simple addition, rigging a model to an existing skeleton with some minor balance tweaks and a few new animations (mostly the flavor animations like idle stances, taunts and vistory poses). Medusa is way out of scope to work as an echo.

As a professional CGI artist for 5 years now, this is not true. Medusa, theoretically, could use an enhanced version of Paluntena´s skeleton. So basically you would have all the same bones that Palutena has and all the same animations, with additional bones and animations added to the rig just for Medusas Snake hair. Doing so would be quite trivial for an experienced artist, to be honest.

Adding new bones/animations to a clone/echo characters is also not unheard of, Ganondorf in Melee and Dark Samus have it compared to their source characters. Not saying its gonna happen, but thats not a valid reason to discredit Medusa as a Paluneta echo.

 

[Mgl]

That is not how this works.

Characters will only get marked as confirmed when they are confirmed.

Nobody on these forums know what a joke is

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Nobody on these forums know what a joke is

It was an awful joke dude.

 

[Mgl]

It was an awful joke dude.

Not all of them are gonna be winners

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's also a joke that is spamming up the thread. Move on.