Smash Ultimate- Quantity over Quality?

[Princess Rescuer]

The final pre-release Direct has left me thoroughly unexcited for SSBU. First off, the game seems to have changed from a unique fighting game to a combination of a gacha game and JRPG where victory revolves around luck, timesinking, and generally being addicted more than pure fighting skill.

But that's a topic for another time. The main thing that bothers me in modern Smash games? The characters- or rather, the over-abundance of unpopular characters from niche franchises at the expense of balance and even appeal. The game is less exciting and less well made for their inclusion. And this problem began with Melee- the "best" one. And it's only gotten worse since then. The Honest Trailer wasn't kidding when it said Smash started out as an all-star fighting game and scraped the bottom of the barrel later on.

Something I have been noticing lately is a lot of fans deflect criticisms of Ultimate by saying that detractors should be thankful. After all, look at how much work went into the game! Look at how much content there is! That doesn't entice me if most of the content is bad though.

What were the points of contention in the previous installment on the Wii U? A small handful of overpowered, high tier characters that made most of the other characters useless. Not just in tournaments, but in the For Glory mode as well. I can't tell you how much percentage of For Glory matches had me facing Bayonettas or Cloud players with "Kirito" in their usernames. Two characters not originally from Nintendo consoles, yet dominating the Nintendo fighting game. See where the problem lies with including everyone instead of just the good characters? Not to mention the fact that stages were so filled to the brim with gimmicks and constantly moving/changing, the game became more about keeping up with the stage rather than fighting. I suspect that this was such an issue, that this is why the "omega stage" feature had to be included. That feature existed to patch up a problem, and was presented as a fun addition. Not to mention that the Omega variations of each and every stage added to the development time and playtesting budget significantly.

And to make matters worse, the roster is full of similar looking swordsmen, not to mention Pokemon most people won't be able to name upon looking at them or which game they're from. Without looking it up, I don't know which installments Lucario, Greninja, or Incineroar are from. Yet I know exactly where Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, and Charizard are from.

Here is what I would have liked: A game with about as much characters and stages as Melee (or even Smash 64!) had. This would be cheaper and faster to develop and easier to balance, not to mention it would probably look better. A small game with 100% content that I like and never get tired of is better than a big game where I'm ignoring most of the content.

Bring this up to Smash fans, and they'll tell you to be grateful. Grateful? for a game that costs over $100 for the full experience and will probably have most of the game marred by the gacha nonsense? Ultimate seems like it's been bloated and overbudget already. I'll be grateful when there's LESS content and it's better balanced.

 

[yknowlikenia]

there's a lot to unpack here, but at least to me and the people i interact with, almost every character in smash bros is iconic, and deserves to be there. i don't care for pokemon that heavily, but i can tell you where each one is from. i recognize that bayonetta and cloud aren't nintendo all-stars, but they're heavily requested and very influential characters to the industry. and the "similar-looking swordsmen argument" is something i partially agree with when you don't take the unique moves and playstyles each one brings, save for echo fighters. it's alright to not like the roster! but many people are going to disagree with you, and love it to death. not every game can be catered to one person. if you like melee more, go play it! there's a whole scene of people who can appreciate it along with you.

 

[Zoneyboi]

You are approaching with the idea that Smash is envisioned as, first and foremost, a competitive 1-on-1 fighting game, when in reality the series is rooted in children beating each other up with controls that they're vaguely aware of while bombs fall out of the sky.

 

[Mic_128]

First off, the game seems to have changed from a unique fighting game to a combination of a gacha game and JRPG where victory revolves around luck, timesinking, and generally being addicted more than pure fighting skill.

Uh, what? Oh, you mean the totally optional single-player mode they added that will be among the least played game modes of the game, seeing as it is primarily a party brawler

 

[Princess Rescuer]

First off, telling me Smash is for kids is not a sound argument. Most Smashboards users act like Sakurai is a perfect god who can do no wrong, but as soon as they’re faced with criticism, they chicken out and resort to excusing games from criticism by saying “it’s for kids”. Making the game more complicated and require more patience will not help kids like it.

If you look at the characters introduced in each installment prior to the Wii U and 3DS ones, you will see distinct characters that appeal to different demographics. In 4, that dissipates significantly, especially with the DLC characters.

I think this may be a design convention established since Smash 64. Include obscure characters and make them better to promote obscure franchises. Not to mention adding new characters in new installments (especially as DLC) creates the unspoken demand for them to be better. So you end up with increasingly more obscure and overpowered characters who are part of games that lose their identity to current trends. Seriously, who thought including characters from Street Fighter, Virtua Fighter, and Dissidia and adding more non-fighting elements is what Smash players wanted?

 

[DBPirate]

I'm confused how it shifted from a unique fighting game to a JRPG? Are you referring to the new adventure mode? The main "Smash" mode is and always will be the centerpiece of the game so the genre hasn't changed at all.

You say "see where the problem lies with including everyone instead of just the good characters?" Who exactly would you consider the good characters? Obviously, the more characters get added, the less "well known" the Nintendo additions become. I don't see why that makes them any less good. Would you rather they just stop adding characters?

And you have the option to remove stage hazards now. If you don't like the gimmicks, you aren't forced to go onto the flat Omega versions. You can still play with the unique layout. I'll agree with you that we have more than enough Fire Emblem characters for maybe two Smash games now, but not on the Pokémon. I can think of at least 10 more that would be awesome to see in Smash and that I'd be excited to play (and I say this as a person who has never played a Pokémon game).

I'm also puzzled why you say this Direct left you thoroughly unexcited for the game. Sounds to me like you would have hated it anyway based on the amount of characters in the game. I'm glad that I don't find more characters a problem.

 

[Zoneyboi]

Most Smashboards users act like Sakurai is a perfect god who can do no wrong, but as soon as they’re faced with criticism, they chicken out and resort to excusing games from criticism by saying “it’s for kids”.

To be honest, I dismissed your post because it comes off as a very large tangle of bait (an issue that is not soothed by making sweeping generalizaions about anyone who responds to you, by the way). You started the thread by implying that Smash was once meant to be a game carried only by "pure fighting skill" when Dream Land is the only stage in 64 coming close to balanced, and items are emphasized.
There's really just not much to say in any case. As I understand: you are upset because you think the additions of stages and characters since Melee have been subpar and distracting to your experience. What would be your ideal roster, then? You say some Pokemon shouldn't be there because you're not sure which game they're from, but Lucario served as a second face to the series after Pikachu for a long while, and in some ways he still fills that role.

A small game with 100% content that I like and never get tired of is better than a big game where I'm ignoring most of the content.

What it comes down to is that the vision for Smash Ultimate is pleasing as many members of the horribly fractured fanbase as possible, by including as much from every game that they can. Chances are that the game where you like 100% of it is ideal for a very select few people.

 

[Uffe]

Who are these unpopular characters? Sure, there are a select few who I wouldn't consider popular, but even then, people still wanted them. If you're not happy with the results of Ultimate, then don't buy it. You're allowed to have an opinion, but of course people are going to voice their own as well. People are going to pick up the best characters if they really want to win. Loyalists will stick with whoever they chose in the past, and fans will select whoever they love. Cloud and Bayonetta, while not Nintendo, are the best because Sakurai and whoever else didn't bother tweaking them to be more balanced. They nerfed Bayo, but she's a combo machine, so how do you nerf her more? Make it possible to DI/SDI out of all her attacks? That would probably be a good idea, but hey, I love having combos, just not to that extent.

Cloud and Bayo were prominent in For Glory when they first came out, just like any other DLC character. I've seen more of any DLC in FG than Cloud or Bayo. Maybe you should block Kirito, because it's probably the same person. Stages were never created with competitive play in mind. Smash 64 literally has one stage that is legal and that's Dream Land 64. Omega stages were created because Sakurai saw that people wanted Fox only, items off, Final Destination. Yeah, I agree, we have a lot anime sword boys, and honestly, that's fine. I don't care about echo Fire Emblem characters, though. And just because you don't know what game Lucario, Greninja, or Incineroar are from doesn't mean other people don't, or that other people might not become interested. Did you know who Ness or Captain Falcon were back on Smash 64? Some people didn't even know who Samus was, because the last Metroid game they ended the series with was created five years prior to the release of Smash 64. And Lucario is from Pokemon Diamond and Pearl, Greninja is from Pokemon X and Y, and Incineroar is from Pokemon Sun and Moon. I didn't have to look any of this up, and the last Pokemon game I played was Ruby.

I'll agree with you on fewer characters, but not as few as Melee. I thought Sm4sh was fine without the DLC, honestly. Balancing is very important, and I'm a bit worried about how they'll do it with Ultimate. Yes, more characters and more content doesn't equate to being a better game, and that I can agree with. But this is Ultimate, and I think Sakurai and his team wanted to do their best to live up to that title. I'm hoping for a smaller roster in the next game if it happens.

 

[Bobthealligator]

Everyone who complains about Bayonetta because they think she doesn't deserve her spot (If it's due to her being overpowered then you have a point) needs to bare in mind that she was one of only two (three if you count Hyrule Warriors) third party exclusives on the Wii U and was one of the faces of the system for quite a while, not to mention Nintendo practically owns her at this point.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

Saying that the Adventure mode will be optional and I don’t have to play it isn’t a point in its favor. I imagine the emphasis on spirit capturing over fighting will greatly diminish the appeal not just for me, but any newer players introduced to the series in Brawl expecting another adventure mode similar to SSE but with more characters and environments. I’m concerned about how long it will take to train them and how much of a requirement it will be, not to mention players’ abilities to turn it off in each mode if they just want regular battles, like if your friends come over and they haven’t trained and raised spirits and don’t feel like it. To what extent will the Spirit Fighters get in the way of the series’s signature couch multiplayer?

 

[yknowlikenia]

To what extent will the Spirit Fighters get in the way of the series’s signature couch multiplayer?

i respond to your question with a question - when you played Sm4sh, how often did you and your friends use your custom fighters? i can count the number of times me and my friends have on one hand, and we play at least 3 times a month, to this day.
optional features are exactly that. i can promise you that you won't have to worry about spirits affecting your signature couch multiplayer.

 

[ｐｓ＿]

The latest Direct stuff doesn't look very promising. The last time we had so much strange, unsolicited junk packed into a Smash game it turned into Brawl, the one most people unanimously agree is the weakest Smash game. I'd be lying if I didn't say my hype has been squashed a bit.

But we'll have to try it first. If I were Nintendo I'd use this downtime as an opportunity to offer an online demo.

 

[Untouch]

uhhhh lol smash 4's random equipment were worse than spirits when it came to random grinding

 

[Jexulus]

Saying that the Adventure mode will be optional and I don’t have to play it isn’t a point in its favor. I imagine the emphasis on spirit capturing over fighting will greatly diminish the appeal not just for me, but any newer players introduced to the series in Brawl expecting another adventure mode similar to SSE but with more characters and environments. I’m concerned about how long it will take to train them and how much of a requirement it will be, not to mention players’ abilities to turn it off in each mode if they just want regular battles, like if your friends come over and they haven’t trained and raised spirits and don’t feel like it. To what extent will the Spirit Fighters get in the way of the series’s signature couch multiplayer?

From what I can see in the footage, there's pretty heavy delineation separating the normal Smash content from Spirit content. It looks about as deliberate as the separation between Custom moves/equipment and Smash in 3DS/Wii U, and the toggles to enable it seem clearly defined even if we haven't seen it in the rules section yet.
As for World of Light itself, it appears that the exploration and platforming of Subspace has been traded out for traditional Smash battles, but with altered conditions that appear clearly defined before battle. In a sense, it's a different approach to Event mode with a story conceit instead of selecting it from a menu.
Spirits appear to be designed in such a way that you don't have to invest in the min/maxing to enjoy them. Button prompts for pulling up descriptions for each Spirit have been spotted in the Direct footage, and even though we don't know if that means flavor descriptions or attribute descriptions, at the base it's an art gallery referencing the wide berth of Nintendo and third-party franchises present in the game. Whether or not you prefer the 3D models the trophy system provided over this and find the clear cost-saving measure of using pre-existing official art off-putting is a personal preference. While I've always enjoyed the trophies and their descriptions, I can appreciate the effort to replace it with something that lets them put time and resources into other things. Again, your mileage may vary.
To close, the Directs have done what they can to temper expectations about certain aspects of the game, such as the smaller count of brand-new fighters and the much different focus of the adventure mode (the shift from "story" to "adventure and fun"). The language used and they way these things have been presented have been pretty clear, so I'm not sure what you mean by "expecting another adventure mode similar to SSE but with more characters and environments" unless you're talking about people who haven't seen the Directs or information about the game prior to purchase.

 

[S_B]

My only concern in this regard is that the last time a SSB game had this much of a focus on single player content was Brawl and the game was a buggy, unbalanced mess as a result.

Let's just say I'm very happy that there will be post-release balance patches, otherwise we'd be ripe for MK 2.0.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

Let me put it to you this way:

E3 trailer comes out. My hype is unfazed and has 0% damage.

I’m already going to buy the game. More trailers do nothing to change this.

And then the November Direct comes out, revealing the Spirits, Piranha Plant, unpopular characters, and the inferior World of Light Adventure mode. In 40 minutes, my hype and desire to buy the game takes 300% of damage and gets KO’d. I’m not excited for the game anymore and will wait and see if other players like it first and if it’s a popular multiplayer game in get-togethers.

 

[Uffe]

Saying that the Adventure mode will be optional and I don’t have to play it isn’t a point in its favor. I imagine the emphasis on spirit capturing over fighting will greatly diminish the appeal not just for me, but any newer players introduced to the series in Brawl expecting another adventure mode similar to SSE but with more characters and environments. I’m concerned about how long it will take to train them and how much of a requirement it will be, not to mention players’ abilities to turn it off in each mode if they just want regular battles, like if your friends come over and they haven’t trained and raised spirits and don’t feel like it. To what extent will the Spirit Fighters get in the way of the series’s signature couch multiplayer?

Why concern yourself with these other features if you yourself are more concerned about the main aspect of the game, which is fighting? If new players pick up the game, they'll either play it casually or competitively. That's for them to decide how they want to play the game. We have items, but those who play competitively will turn them off. I've even watched competitive players turn items on for ****s and giggles. The features are there, but it doesn't mean you have to play them. When I didn't have Smash for the Wii U, I'd go over to my friends house, and I left my amiibos there because I thought he'd level them up. He didn't. So when I came over, he gave me that option of leveling them up as he and I played. Don't worry about how other people will play Ultimate. Let them decide on what they want to do.

 

[yknowlikenia]

Let me put it to you this way:

E3 trailer comes out. My hype is unfazed and has 0% damage.

I’m already going to buy the game. More trailers do nothing to change this.

And then the November Direct comes out, revealing the Spirits, Piranha Plant, unpopular characters, and the inferior World of Light Adventure mode. In 40 minutes, my hype and desire to buy the game takes 300% of damage and gets KO’d. I’m not excited for the game anymore and will wait and see if other players like it first and if it’s a popular multiplayer game in get-togethers.

nobody is forcing you to buy it, dude. if you prefer melee, keep playing it. you shouldn't have to convince yourself to buy a game, especially since it doesn't seem like you want to in the first place.

...also, you stay away from my baby boy.

 

[Polan]

buy the game, don't buy the game, i don't care, just don't make anothe dime-a-dozen post whining about the characters that got in and disguise it as "critical" discussion.

 

[Jexulus]

Let me put it to you this way:

E3 trailer comes out. My hype is unfazed and has 0% damage.

I’m already going to buy the game. More trailers do nothing to change this.

And then the November Direct comes out, revealing the Spirits, Piranha Plant, unpopular characters, and the inferior World of Light Adventure mode. In 40 minutes, my hype and desire to buy the game takes 300% of damage and gets KO’d. I’m not excited for the game anymore and will wait and see if other players like it first and if it’s a popular multiplayer game in get-togethers.

To each their own, but I can't help but be puzzled by how this shift came to be. I know you've explained yourself, but this just seems like a case of unchecked expectations and not really a problem with the game's quality.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

The only people who have "unchecked expectations" are the people expecting this game to be the game of the century and the only main game they'll need until the next Smash comes out.

Here's another problem with not enforcing quality control- Nintendo has unwittingly surrendered to Sony. Some of the third party characters can be seen as encouragement to buy a Sony console. It began with Snake in Brawl, who was the star of MGS4, the signature PS3 exclusive of 2008 and it's only gotten more intense. Which console is Street Fighter 5, the game Ryu and Ken are from in Ultimate, exclusive to? The PS4. Virtua Fighter's most recent installment, 5, came out on the PS3, but the characters have made appearances in Dead or Alive 5 Last Round, which is on the PS4. Cloud has already been in a spinoff game, Dissidia, which is mainly on Sony consoles (the most recent one was on PS4). Where did Bayonetta begin? The PS3! And fans will tell me I shouldn't have expectations because "Nintendo making Smash games isn't an act of charity" (No kidding. The game plus the season pass plus the online plus the Gamecube controller adapter which people are going to want? That doesn't just break the bank, it KOs the bank). Yet Nintendo is giving Sony free promotion. No- it's better than free promotion- it's promotion that requires extensive development effort by Nintendo and edges out Nintendo's own intellectual property. Is everyone in Japan just really big friends with each other? Is Nintendo the EU of Japan? The lack of a competitive spirit won't solve problems, it will spread them. Competition where companies exploit each others weaknesses would encourage solvency.

 

[S_B]

To each their own, but I can't help but be puzzled by how this shift came to be. I know you've explained yourself, but this just seems like a case of unchecked expectations and not really a problem with the game's quality.

Sakurai needs to learn how to save SOMETHING for last. Maybe not the "best", but most people would be singing a different tune had he saved either Ridley or KKR for the final reveal.

 

[NotLiquid]

Smash has been "quantity over quality" since Brawl.

Actually, if anything, the most "quantity over quality" the series has ever been is Smash 4, where they showered a bunch of extraneous crap your way to hide the utterly anemic single player offerings.

At least with Smash Ultimate, the grinding looks actually.... y'know, fun. Like a superior Event Mode that's basing all of it's matches around the fighters you're actually trying to collect.

 

[Mariomaniac45213]

Smash has been "quantity over quality" since Brawl.

Actually, if anything, the most "quantity over quality" the series has ever been is Smash 4, where they showered a bunch of extraneous crap your way to hide the utterly anemic single player offerings.

At least with Smash Ultimate, the grinding looks actually.... y'know, fun. Like a superior Event Mode that's basing all of it's matches around the fighters you're actually trying to collect.

I came in here to say just this and while I'm not a fan of spirits (looks very mobile gamish), and the story mode looks kinda mediocre (but still could be fun). IMO Smash 4 is the "quantity over quality" game. Smash Tour? Target Smash? Master Orders/Crazy Orders? Lame grindy custom moves? Butchered classic mode? Trophy Rush? all lame additions IMO to just add more to the game. Hell unpopular opinion but I'm glad Trophies are gone. I've said it before in the past but Trophies were past their prime. All that development time wasted on solid 3D models that you look at/read the description once then never return to again. Not to mention we live in the age of the internet where you can easily go find out about a character through wiki's or youtube videos. So why do you need trophies to teach you about characters? Smash 4 had like 800 trophies even Sakurai admitted during the direct that they were extremely hard to develop.

If anything I feel Ultimate is going Quality over Quantity. Yeah it has EVERY fighter and 100 stages but come on if you REALLY think about it there was only like 6 characters missing from the Wii U roster. Everything else, all they had to do was basically port over and make a few balance, animation, and final smash changes. Not to mention we only got what? 6 actual newcomers (minus the Plant)? All of which IMO have been fantastic and more than deserving (except maybe the Plant) and frankly long overdue (K.Rool, Simon, and Ridley). The stages got graphical overhauls but at the end of the day there's only 5 actual new stages they had to build from scratch, the rest of the stages they had a base already established to work on.

The quantity argument just doesn't make since to me regarding Ultimate it's missing Trophies, Break the Targets, Homerun contest, All-Star mode (I think), Stage builder (which has always been terrible), Smash Run/Tour (though they were probably never coming back). It has LESS modes than previous games. So how is it focusing on quantity over quality? Hell theirs a 90% chance we aren't even getting cutscenes for the story mode as the Japanese site seemed to hint that, that cutscene we saw in direct was made specifically for the direct. So once again that's less development time/resources dedicated to that than Brawl. If anything I feel Ultimate is kinda lacking content compared to previous games. But honestly idgaf becuase I mainly play Smash for the core multiplayer gameplay and EVERYTHING in that regard/department looks quality to me.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

People who are telling me to "go back to Melee"...

I actually like the series and have generally always preferred whatever the current newest game is. I just want to bring up concerns about the direction its going as well as some viruses it might have invited over the years. When it comes to multiplayer games, I like sticking to current ones. It just requires having them be the best and the most hassle free.

Melee is actually a very rushed, glitchy, unbalanced, and overrated game IMO. I think if Nintendo made a game with similar scale on modern hardware with more budget and development time, as well as the experience they've gained over the past two decades, it would blow Melee out of the water. Problem is, they keep adding instead of subtracting, thinking that expansion will always produce better results than refinement.

And some things that bother me in Ultimate won't be optional. If the series history is to be believed, regular smash mode is the only mode where you can turn Spirits off. None of the Classic modes, Adventure modes, All-Star modes, or mini-challenges (aside from the Cruel challenges) have the ability to turn items off or make much alterations to the settings in general. I expect Spirits to be the same sort of situation. And they're not going to make Spirits negligible. It has to be a really important part of the game to inoculate fans into the inevitable paid loot box heavy installments that will come later. In the trailer, we saw the ability to become invisible or metal at will. What else will they be able to do that demands players spend the most time possible collecting Spirits, training them, feeding them snacks, making them go through the little dungeon backgrounds, and generally doing anything but fighting as much as possible?

 

[yknowlikenia]

It has to be a really important part of the game to inoculate fans into the inevitable paid loot box heavy installments that will come later. In the trailer, we saw the ability to become invisible or metal at will. What else will they be able to do that demands players spend the most time possible collecting Spirits, training them, feeding them snacks, making them go through the little dungeon backgrounds, and generally doing anything but fighting as much as possible?

the "become invisible or metal" stuff was done by the CPU spirits in their own matches. and i can promise you, they will never give one player an advantage based on how much they played the singleplayer, barring friend/local matches where it's absolutely optional. that isn't what smash bros is.

also, "inevitable paid loot box heavy installments that will come later" is not happening, ever. don't worry buddy.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

"Paid loot boxes aren't happening" We've already had that 3DS game with the pink bunny, Fire Emblem Heroes, Animal Crossing Amiibo Festival, games with DLC, games with season passes, trust me the loot boxes are coming. Just be on your guard. Despite the backlash (some loot box games are openly booed upon announcement), Nintendo will be hungry for that loot box money as soon as they figure out how to make it work. Especially with their unusually devoted fanbase ripe for the exploitation. They're already working on a more appealing, unsullied name to call it (Free-to-Play became "Free to Start" and the season passes have more appealing game-specific names)

Oh, and Pokemon cards since the 90s. See, they've already been doing loot boxes for two decades already. If you think Nintendo isn't diving into that ocean of cryptocurrency, you are mistaken. And fans will eat it up as long as the "currencies" are Coins, Rupees, and Bells and the like. Just you wait.

I want SSBU to live up to its name and be the ultimate fighting game that will last me throughout the generation. I already have two pairs of Joy-Cons as well as one Pro controller, giving me five players. And that's not counting controllers others might bring. Getting into an 8 player match would be a possibility for me and that would be very exciting. Problem is, that might not happen if it isn't a good game in the first place.

 

[Weeman]

The modes outside multiplayer had been on a decline since Melee and a big part of this is definitely because of the amount of characters. How much that affects the quality of the game overall will definitely vary from person to person, but i think this game at least managed it in a more intelligent way than Smash 4, despite the fact that it has more characters and focused way more of it's development on the main fighting mechanics.

Let's take Break the Targets for instance. In Melee, this was a neat addition because every character had it's own stage that utilized it's abilities, doubling down as a way for players to learn the different characters while also being a neat change of pace during classic mode.
In Brawl break the targets became a largely boring mode that most people wouldn't bother doing outside classic mode. It encouraged to find a single dominant character and strategy, rather than using different ones.
In Smash 4 they changed break the targets into an Angry Birds-like minigame. I played it once and barely bothered with it afterwards, and from what i've heard and seen, most people didn't bother much with it either.

In Ultimate break the targets is gone, probably for the better. This is because, realistically, it would be a titanic undertaking to make a unique stage for each character, while most people wouldn't appreciate a watered down version like in the previous titles. Similar arguments apply to trophies and All-Star Mode, where the more they add the worse they became.

This doesn't mean that Ultimate is "Quantity over quality", it's just that the quality was ultimately focused where it matters the most. The characters and multiplayer.
The solo modes in the game might not be what we wanted, but the smarter design makes them sound way more fun than anything in Smash Wii U for what they're worth

 

[Crystanium]

Most Smashboards users act like Sakurai is a perfect god who can do no wrong

This is a baseless assertion. I doubt you've met every person on SmashBoards or asked them for their opinion about Sakurai.

As for your original post, all I can say to an opinion is don't buy SSBU. Please stop projecting, though.

 

[Terradrius]

What makes spirits so fundamentally different from stickers or equipment that it will be the downfall of Smash Ultimate when those other two were barely blips on people's radar after the first month or so?

Your unknown characters are someone else's favorite. Pokemon Sun/Moon sold 16 million copies, and ultra sun/moon sold another 8. I'm guessing you don't care about them, but that doesn't make the final form of one of the starters there an obscure character.

As for stages, given the sheer volume of stages that are in this game, I think we'll have something for everyone. We'll have far more "balanced" stages than any other game in the franchise, particularly with the stage hazard toggle existing. We'll also have far more "crazy" stages than ever before. I don't see why we need to skew the percent one way or another if everyone has a large number of options that make them happy.

And personally I don't have a problem with Smash expanding to become about video games in general, while still being clearly focused on Nintendo. I know that is a shift from what it originally was, but I like having big playable casts and Nintendo's characters were getting pretty obscure. Keeping Smash relevant by expanding its focus is totally fine by me.

 

[Weeman]

People who are telling me to "go back to Melee"...

I actually like the series and have generally always preferred whatever the current newest game is. I just want to bring up concerns about the direction its going as well as some viruses it might have invited over the years. When it comes to multiplayer games, I like sticking to current ones. It just requires having them be the best and the most hassle free.

Melee is actually a very rushed, glitchy, unbalanced, and overrated game IMO. I think if Nintendo made a game with similar scale on modern hardware with more budget and development time, as well as the experience they've gained over the past two decades, it would blow Melee out of the water. Problem is, they keep adding instead of subtracting, thinking that expansion will always produce better results than refinement.

And some things that bother me in Ultimate won't be optional. If the series history is to be believed, regular smash mode is the only mode where you can turn Spirits off. None of the Classic modes, Adventure modes, All-Star modes, or mini-challenges (aside from the Cruel challenges) have the ability to turn items off or make much alterations to the settings in general. I expect Spirits to be the same sort of situation. And they're not going to make Spirits negligible. It has to be a really important part of the game to inoculate fans into the inevitable paid loot box heavy installments that will come later. In the trailer, we saw the ability to become invisible or metal at will. What else will they be able to do that demands players spend the most time possible collecting Spirits, training them, feeding them snacks, making them go through the little dungeon backgrounds, and generally doing anything but fighting as much as possible?

Not really. Spirit boosted characters seem to be somewhat similar to custom characters in smash 4, where you can choose to never use them at all.
Hell from what we've seen you could probably play through both main spirit modes without ever touching the customization they bring to the table.
It's also comparable to the stickers in subspace emissary where you could get a character of choice boosts with them, but it was never required of you.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

I'm not hating the game, I'm just going to be cautious and wait to see how much the elements affect the game, how much of a need for balance patches there are, and how much money to spend to get the experience I want before buying the game. I probably will end up owning it, if only because friends and cousins will want it and it'll give my Switch a good workout and something nice besides Vs. Super Mario Brothers. I just think there needs to be more discussion and criticism of the overall core of the game and the decisions made around it, and less hot air hype where fanatics just overreact to everything that's presented in trailers. In some ways, each Smash installment since the first has improved and in others, it's become more bloated and diluted. And besides, Sakurai is an adult working for one of Japan's biggest companies. He can take criticism. And after working on Smash for hours a day, he's probably more concerned about watching some yakyuu or sumo on TV or doing karaoke than what vocal gaijins are saying about his game. What does he care? He's making big money (by Japanese standards at least, even CEOs don't make that much over there). My opinions aren't going to cause all the boxes, cartridges, and code and art assets on the Nintendo computers to dissipate into thin air.

Also, thank goodness trophies are gone. Anything that goes ignored or unused should just not have money or space wasted on it.

 

[Weeman]

This whole thread is such a tin foil hat conspiracy lol.
-Just because spirits have a gacha element to it it doesn't mean it'll affect the main gameplay of multiplayer and non spirit solo modes.
-Nothing shown so far has implied that you're forced to use spirits yourself, and just because cpus might gain advantages through them (ONLY in spirits mode), it doesn't make them some kind of unwinnable challenge.
-Even if Nintendo were to tap into loot box markets or whatever in later games, this game shows nothing that could make you think it'll have them.
-The quality of the single player modes actually increased from Smash for Wii U, despite the roster and main gameplay changes being the focus of the game.
-How the hell is bringing a couple of really popular characters that have history with Sony, a move that benefits Nintendo as much as it does them, somehow equated to "Nintendo surrendering to Sony"?

 

[Princess Rescuer]

Imagine if there were a new Marvel vs Capcom game that had Richter and The Flash as DLC and they were the best characters so every online and tournament match would have them. How DUMB would that be? It would send the subtle message that you better become a fan of DC and Konami because they're better companies that make stronger characters.

Although Nintendo makes loads of money, the total amount of money made by mobile companies (in Japan, who most Japanese games are made for nearly exclusively aside from Nintendo) vastly outmatches the amount of money Nintendo makes in Japan. Certain big titles, such as The Granblue Fantasy, have made a fortune and there's been comparatively much less resistance from Japanese (and Asian in general) audiences when it comes to those sorts of games with appealingly designed things to unlock. The Spirits smacks of something made for the benefit of Eastern audiences as a small, uninvolving series of mini-activities they'll have time for during bus or train rides.

Also, the people telling me how much better Ultimate is than every other smash game- have you played it yet? I don't see how it's fair for you to tell me to "wait until the game comes out" if you are praising the game before it comes out. Are we only allowed to praise games before they come out, then open up criticism once they do? When Super Smash Bros. Ultimater comes out on the Uber Duper Switch in 2025, are we going to be trashing Ultimate and hyping it up? I'll be interested in checking by then. I have a feeling Ultimate will be showered with perfect review scores and nothing but praise... for the first few months before people lose interest or things get ugly. Just like what happened with Brawl.

 

[Weeman]

Imagine if there were a new Marvel vs Capcom game that had Richter and The Flash as DLC and they were the best characters so every online and tournament match would have them. How DUMB would that be? It would send the subtle message that you better become a fan of DC and Konami because they're better companies that make stronger characters.

I guess Smash 64 sent the message Pokémon was the best franchise ever. Melee sent the message Star Fox was the best. Brawl sent the message Kirby was the best.
This argument basically hinges on the assumption that people are too dumb to tell that just because a character is strong in a fighting game, it doesn't have to carry some kind of bias or subliminal message with it.
Oh Cammy is top tier in SFV i guess Capcom is trying to tell people that the UK is better than Japan.

Although Nintendo makes loads of money, the total amount of money made by mobile companies (in Japan, who most Japanese games are made for nearly exclusively aside from Nintendo) vastly outmatches the amount of money Nintendo makes in Japan. Certain big titles, such as The Granblue Fantasy, have made a fortune and there's been comparatively much less resistance from Japanese (and Asian in general) audiences when it comes to those sorts of games with appealingly designed things to unlock. The Spirits smacks of something made for the benefit of Eastern audiences as a small, uninvolving series of mini-activities they'll have time for during bus or train rides.

I agree with this actually, though this is more of an issue with the gaming industry in general rather than with smash. Just because it has elements of mobile games, it doesn't mean that the main gameplay HAS to be affected by it.
Nothing they have shown so far implies that spirits are something you're forced to use. You can never train them, you can choose not to collect them consciously, you can choose to always play with the default characters. Enemies in world of light and spirit battles might gain advantages from them, but smash isn't a mobile game, numbers and stats don't win a match, it's still your skill that does.

Also, the people telling me how much better Ultimate is than every other smash game- have you played it yet? I don't see how it's fair for you to tell me to "wait until the game comes out" if you are praising the game before it comes out. Are we only allowed to praise games before they come out, then open up criticism once they do? When Super Smash Bros. Ultimater comes out on the Uber Duper Switch in 2025, are we going to be trashing Ultimate and hyping it up? I'll be interested in checking by then. I have a feeling Ultimate will be showered with perfect review scores and nothing but praise... for the first few months before people lose interest or things get ugly. Just like what happened with Brawl.

We might have not played the game yet, but there is a TON of info that has been gathered on the game from Nintendo directs, the demo and videos nintendo has released that, when compared with our expperience playing the previous titles, makes the game feel way better just from watching the videos on it.
Characters in general have better frame data, you have way more options out of dashes, there's a universal jumpsquat. This isn't even mentioning the amount of quality of life changes made that most people would've never expected in a million years with how stubborn nintendo can be.
Chargeable Final Smashes, stage hazard toggles, battlefield versions of stages, multiple audio options, a better training mode and many more.
I agree people shouldn't treat the game as perfect or never criticize it, but this should go without saying because people never have treated smash as perfect.
Both Brawl and Smash 4 were recieved with TONS of complaints from the community despite the fact that they are beloved games. Utimate is being met with such positivity because it has actually addressed a lot of these issues. Not all of them, there will lalways be something to improve of course, but Ultimate feels like it's fixing and adding a lot more than smash 4 did.
Brawl was still a beloved and highly played game, just becuse the competitive community didn't like it as much as melee it doesn't mean everyone didn't. I played Brawl for hundreds of hours and loved the story mode for what it was, but that doesn't mean i can't see the flaws the main gameplay had and praise ultimate for fixing a lot of them.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

I'm so glad this website has people like you guys around. You put up some good ones. I'm going to like it here.

Everything a game includes, especially one as considerate as Smash, affects the game, even if you don't use it. The same "don't like it don't use it" and "it doesn't affect me so it's not a problem" has been used to defend microtransactions and loot boxes on numerous occasions. And although Ultimate is addressing problems from past games, the new characters and elements mean it will most likely come up with new ones.

And hey, I would LOVE to be proven wrong. I am planning on contributing to routing the All Levels category in World of Light speedrunning.

 

[Weeman]

I'm so glad this website has people like you guys around. You put up some good ones. I'm going to like it here.

Everything a game includes, especially one as considerate as Smash, affects the game, even if you don't use it. The same "don't like it don't use it" and "it doesn't affect me so it's not a problem" has been used to defend microtransactions and loot boxes on numerous occasions. And although Ultimate is addressing problems from past games, the new characters and elements mean it will most likely come up with new ones.

Yeah, i understand spirits itself might be an indicator of a worse trend for future Nintendo games, but it's still not enough by itself to overshadow the positive changes being brought in this game imo. It also doesn't worry me as much because most people who are excited about this game aren't really excited for spirits itself. The possibility of cutscenes and bosses is cool, but this mode will probably be met with similar backlash as Smash Tour had in the previous game, and now Smash Tour is gone.

A lot of the problems of smash are more a result of the somewhat conflicting identities of smash bros. as a series.
On one hand it's a very unique fighting game with a lot of depth. From this perspective a smaller roster and a smaller stage selection would allow the developers to craft better content to compliment it's gameplay.
One the other hand Smash is a massive crossover and video game history museum, where adding more characters and franchises, as well as more content in general, is naturally the way to progress.
Nintendo has done a good job balancing these 2 identities, but since the crossover aspect is the one that gets people more excited and lends itself to being more marketable, it's always going to come out on top.
I think Spirits is a ultimately a symptom of this problem, rather than an attempt at Nintendo trying to force mobile gacha games down our throats. At the end of the day there will be no value to the spirits outside their game modes and no real life currency to be spent on them.

DLC is another thing entirely but i feel there's value in the effort put into making the characters and stages. And at least Nintendo hasn't fallen into day 1 locked content territory, choosing to develop this additional content after the main game is completed.

 

[Princess Rescuer]

I'm just wondering how time consuming this will be. How long will it take for kids to train their spirit fighters and send them into a scrolling dungeon? How long will it take to scroll around the menu with the incredibly small pictures to find an appealing character or stage? Will all the new features equal even worse and more convoluted menus? Because that's been a problem in the last few installments. What happened to just going up and down in menus? Instead it's this oddly shaped slanted thing where the options are different sizes and there's no telling where each directional press will get you. And these might not seem that time consuming, but we'll be doing them in between fights very often unless all players (up to eight remember) are very comfortable with who they like playing as and which stages they like.

When the game comes out, I want to be surprised. I want to go "The spirits and characters I didn't recognize had me worried. But wow, this is a big, polished game that will last."

 

[osby]

I'm honestly not sure what OP is complaining about at this point. Menus? Character count? Spirits? There being new content that they might not like and therefore shouldn't be in the game?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Based on all your points and concerns...
I've come to the conclusion that Smash Ultimate isn't for you.

Have you considered Rivals of Aether by chance?



It's seems to fit all your needs:
-Small, well balanced roster
-Very few sword-users
-Little-to-no gimmicks with a well focused fighting system
-Consistent and fair stages
-Hardly any noticeable bugs and glitches
-Fast paced matches
-Small amount of high quality content
-Has the iconic indie rep Shovel Knight