Official Smash Ultimate Discussion

[SlickWylde]

Not a claim anyone would've made prior to Cloud.

Actually, I remember a lot of debates about that pre announcement. But I definitely felt like the majority opinion was "Eh, there's no real reason to have him".

But I do remember a good amount of people really wanting him to get in.

 

[Megadoomer]

Not a claim anyone would've made prior to Cloud.

Cloud seemed more like a "wouldn't it be cool if he got in" type of character, but people have wanted to see a Final Fantasy character in Smash for a long time, and Cloud is far and away the most recognizable, so he'd get a lot of requests.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Not a claim anyone would've made prior to Cloud.

It became a meme for a reason.

 

[Opossum]

Not a claim anyone would've made prior to Cloud.

There's a reason Brawl Taunts did their Cloud joke back when they did.

 

[N3ON]

I task all of you to go back to 2013 and 2014 and really think if you would be arguing that Cloud was a character often debated, widely vocalized, and highly popular in the context of Smash. I actually did want Cloud, and made that opinion known back then. Not frequently, because I didn't expect it would actually happen, but I remember it was not a popular opinion, people didn't take the support seriously, and most of all, it was infrequent. If it was more frequent there would've been an actual perceptible fanbase like other popular third-parties have, and I would've been part of it. Even if it was one that was divisive, like Bayonetta's was.

I remember how Cloud was treated because I supported the character in Smash before it became a reality.

It's like when people try to argue Ryu was also a character with more than a modicum of support. These were left-field, unexpected, unpopular choices. Not unpopular characters, unpopular choices for Smash.

Actually, I remember a lot of debates about that pre announcement. But I definitely felt like the majority opinion was "Eh, there's no real reason to have him".

But I do remember a good amount of people really wanting him to get in.

Right, I guess that was in the pre-reveal Cloud thread that got locked after a single page due to an insufficient OP, or the fact that a new one didn't get made until two years later when Cloud was revealed. Clearly lots of debates.

Or when he was revealed and there were salt mines everywhere to reflect the supposed "indifference" towards his inclusion. Or the fact that he never showed up highly on any fan poll to reflect "a good amount of people wanting him to get in". Or look at fan-made rosters prior to his reveal. Even the ones that have an inordinate amount of third-parties.

Many people were against Cloud, and almost everyone didn't anticipate him to the point people barely bothered to discuss him. I'm not saying the character isn't popular, but you'd find little evidence of that in regards to Smash prior to his inclusion. But if you have proof past the rare post here and there that touched on him, feel free to share. And not just on this site, on any site with a Smash scene.

It became a meme for a reason.

There's a reason Brawl Taunts did their Cloud joke back when they did.

Exactly. I'm not saying there were zero requests, but the meme was because people found the notion ridiculous and/or unlikely, ala the "Master Chief for Smash" meme. That was the entire joke. How people would now request anybody once Snake got in. Are you guys really saying the meme existed because Cloud was a popular request?

It's only until very recently people have more widely embraced unorthodox third-parties. Like, Ryu/Cloud/Bayonetta recentness. It came with the ballot era. I'm sure I could go back and find posts made by either of you, or me, that reflect this. Let's not forget how perspectives changed.

 

[Opossum]

I task all of you to go back to 2013 and 2014 and really think if you would be arguing that Cloud was a character often debated, widely vocalized, and highly popular in the context of Smash. I actually did want Cloud, and made that opinion known back then. Not frequently, because I didn't expect it would actually happen, but I remember it was not a popular opinion, people didn't take the support seriously, and most of all, it was infrequent. If it was more frequent there would've been an actual perceptible fanbase like other popular third-parties have, and I would've been part of it. Even if it was one that was divisive, like Bayonetta's was.

I remember how Cloud was treated because I supported the character in Smash before it became a reality.

It's like when people try to argue Ryu was also a character with more than a modicum of support. These were left-field, unexpected, unpopular choices. Not unpopular characters, unpopular choices for Smash.


Right, I guess that was in the pre-reveal Cloud thread that got locked after a single page due to an insufficient OP, or the fact that a new one didn't get made until two years later when Cloud was revealed. Clearly lots of debates.

Or when he was revealed and there were salt mines everywhere to reflect the supposed "indifference" towards his inclusion. Or the fact that he never showed up highly on any fan poll to reflect "a good amount of people wanting him to get in". Or look at fan-made rosters prior to his reveal. Even the ones that have an inordinate amount of third-parties.

Many people were against Cloud, and almost everyone didn't anticipate him to the point people barely bothered to discuss him. I'm not saying the character isn't popular, but you'd find little evidence of that in regards to Smash prior to his inclusion. But if you have proof past the rare post here and there that touched on him, feel free to share. And not just on this site, on any site with a Smash scene.



Exactly. I'm not saying there were zero requests, but the meme was because people found the notion ridiculous and/or unlikely, ala the "Master Chief for Smash" meme. That was the entire joke. How people would now request anybody once Snake got in. Are you guys really saying the meme existed because Cloud was a popular request?

It's only until very recently people have more widely embraced unorthodox third-parties. Like, Ryu/Cloud/Bayonetta recentness. It came with the ballot era. I'm sure I could go back and find posts made by either of you, or me, that reflect this. Let's not forget how perspectives changed.

I'm not saying that the clamoring for Cloud was taken seriously. It wasn't at all. But it did exist.

Best comparison I can make is it was viewed the same way as support for Steve or Freddy Fazbear is now. It was taken as a joke, but the clamor WAS there...just not in the "core" speculation community.

 

[Swamp Sensei]

Are you guys really saying the meme existed because Cloud was a popular request?

Well yeah.

He beat out every other Final Fantasy character and Sakurai stated they were popular requests.

So yes.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Rereading it, it doesn't say anything about the ballot specifically, so you may be right.


That doesn't mean either had to be done, his choices in post mean very little. Point I was making is that they're both clones and Chrom could've been chosen as a clone/semi-clone instead, had he made a different thought process. It wasn't like his hands were tied, those decisions were ones he chose to make.

Lucina only made it in the game as a last minute addition.
Chrom was already given a major role as an NPC
Semi clone would have been more than last minute and considering how Dark Pit had a total of 9 differences in gameplay, there wasn't time for this
Chrom would be more fitting as an Ike semi-clone anyway.
I don't really get what you were trying to argue

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud blindsided people for a different reason that you'd think, N3ON.

It wasn't that he hardly had any support, it was that he was seen as nothing more than a pipe dream.

 

[FunAtParties]

Lucina only made it in the game as a last minute addition.
Chrom was already given a major role as an NPC
Semi clone would have been more than last minute and considering how Dark Pit had a total of 9 differences in gameplay, there wasn't time for this
Chrom would be more fitting as an Ike semi-clone anyway.
I don't really get what you were trying to argue

Yes, 'll of that is fact, because that's how Sakurai did things, all I'm arguing is that Chrom should have been worked on before either Lucina or Roy, costume to character, DLC, or whatever. I kniw exactly what happened, its just my opinion that it shouldn't have gone down the way it did.

Think of it this way, instead of him putting work into making Lucina a costume, I think he should be done it with Chrom instead. He shouldn't have played second fiddle to all these characters, he was really really big at the time.

 

[Deleted member]

Best comparison I can make is it was viewed the same way as support for Steve or Freddy Fazbear is now. It was taken as a joke, but the clamor WAS there...just not in the "core" speculation community.

They're supporting the wrong animatronic, anyway. :V

I'm being serious, actually. Springtrap is overall much more important to the franchise than Freddy, especially when you factor in who he is (and who else he may possibly be) outside of the bunny suit.

Think of it this way, instead of him putting work into making Lucina a costume, I think he should be done it with Chrom instead. He shouldn't have played second fiddle to all these characters, he was really really big at the time.

Yeah, makes sense to have Chrom as a Marth alt than the one who in-universe initially took the identity of Marth.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Yes, 'll of that is fact, because that's how Sakurai did things, all I'm arguing is that Chrom should have been worked on before either Lucina or Roy, costume to character, DLC, or whatever. I kniw exactly what happened, its just my opinion that it shouldn't have gone down the way it did.

Think of it this way, instead of him putting work into making Lucina a costume, I think he should be done it with Chrom instead. He shouldn't have played second fiddle to all these characters, he was really really big at the time.

But Chrom already HAD a role, the final smash. Having Chrom as a playable character too meant having 9 Chroms on screen at once

 

[A Distant Demon]

But Chrom already HAD a role, the final smash. Having Chrom as a playable character too meant having 9 Chroms on screen at once

When the difference is from 8 to 9 that isnt too big of a deal TBH

I still think Roy and Lucina were better choices from overwhelming popularity (which is especially important for DLC), but just adding one more Chrom into the fray of 9 isnt that important.

And actually, the max would be 8, since one chrom would be replaced by Robin performing their final smash

 

[FunAtParties]

They're supporting the wrong animatronic, anyway. :V

I'm being serious, actually. Springtrap is overall much more important to the franchise than Freddy, especially when you factor in who he is (and who else he may possibly be) outside of the bunny suit.



Yeah, makes sense to have Chrom as a Marth alt than the one who in-universe initially took the identity of Marth.

I didn't say I wanted him as a Marth alt ffs, I swear no one on hear mixes up my words more than you, I feel like you do it intentonally at this point. Seeing Sakurai joked Chrom was just like Ike, he could have been a palette swap for him.

 

[Opossum]

I didn't say I wanted him as a Marth alt ffs, I swear no one on hear mixes up my words more than you, I feel like you do it intentonally at this point. Seeing Sakurai joked Chrom was just like Ike, he could have been a palette swap for him.

If you're talking about the Palutena's Guidance thing, the localization team took some liberties with it. IIRC the Japanese version doesn't mention Ike at all.

I could be misremembering this, but the Japanese version definitely had some differences. Sakurai's only words on how Chrom would have played was as a middle ground between Marth and Ike, not overly similar to one or the other.

 

[FunAtParties]

If you're talking about the Palutena's Guidance thing, the localization team took some liberties with it. IIRC the Japanese version doesn't mention Ike at all.

I could be misremembering this, but the Japanese version definitely had some differences. Sakurai's only words on how Chrom would have played was as a middle ground between Marth and Ike, not overly similar to one or the other.

Fair enough. You'd know better than anyone.

 

[PsychoJosh]

A quick idea before I head to bed:

I notice that certain stages have off-screen/invisible "players" doing things that the players are unable to do. For instance, the Pictochat stage has random drawings, the Pilotwings stage has a CPU pilot, etc.

What if in the next Smash they introduced a new mode called "stage director" where instead of playing as a character, you got to play as the stage? So you'd be able to take control of the plane in the Pilotwings stage and fly it around, or take control of the Pictochat stage and draw platforms and stuff. You could also direct cars on the F-Zero stage and tell them to congregate on one location. You could direct what happens on the stage and when it happens, basically playing as God watching your friends get pummeled by your actions. There are multiple ways they could implement this, such as simply being able to direct the stages in free-for-all or make it an "everyone vs. God" type of deal where the players win if they survive God's hazards.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Also, the reason it was seen as a pipe dream was due to a mistranslation. Sakurai actually didn't actually say "Characters must have a Nintendo appearance", and many took that as a "more than a cameo" for some reason. All he meant was that having a Nintendo appearance makes it more likely, that's about it.

Cloud still had a good chance even if he had no Nintendo appearances due to who he is. It's just somewhat less than his original chance. It's very clear he was chosen due to overwhelming popularity that Sakurai knew of and that he's the most iconic Final Fantasy protagonist overall. Having a few Nintendo appearances was just an upside/coincidence at best.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I think Cloud was a character that a lot of casual players who didn't understand or care about the logistics of getting characters from other companies in Smash wanted.

Also I'm guessing a lot of fans from Japan asked for him too.

 

[Deleted member]

To change of topic, it may appears selfish, but is it possible for the NPC (ATs, Poké Ball, Bosses...) thread to get stickied along with the stage and veterans threads?

 

[Deleted member]

Cloud blindsided people for a different reason that you'd think, N3ON.

It wasn't that he hardly had any support, it was that he was seen as nothing more than a pipe dream.

Cloud was a pipe dream, a character that no one saw coming... not even his supporters.
Honestly Cloud is the most logical FF character given his star power and the popularity of FF7; that didn't make him any less of a shock since FF7 help made a competing console more popular. As much as I would love to see Terra in Smash, I can't deny how popular Cloud and FF7 are.

I think Cloud was a character that a lot of casual players who didn't understand or care about the logistics of getting characters from other companies in Smash wanted.

Also I'm guessing a lot of fans from Japan asked for him too.

Apparently, Japan was also pretty confused.
http://legendsoflocalization.com/what-do-japanese-fans-think-of-cloud-in-super-smash-bros/
According to Sakurai, he received a lot of requests for a Final Fantasy character and it was the series with the most requests. He did consider Terra, Bartz, and Onion Knight, but decided on Cloud for how popular he is.

Cloud is a character that I think had a lot of quiet support. People wanted to see him in Smash, but it was nothing more than a pipe dream. To quote Cloud, "I never thought I'd see the day."
I'm perfectly fine with Cloud in Smash. I just wish Midgar had more music and a remix beyond the two original tracks.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Just a random comment coming by.

What would you say that for the 20th Anniversary, they remake the older Smash Titles?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Just a random comment coming by.

What would you say that for the 20th Anniversary, they remake the older Smash Titles?

No, because then there'd likely be a lot of cut characters, and the Mahvel fandom proved how well that goes over

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

No, because then there'd likely be a lot of cut characters, and the Mahvel fandom proved how well that goes over

Honestly, I rather take risks and limitations.

I'm sick of new characters "this" and new content "that." I rather/want to fix and tune up the old.

Think about and fix the possibilities.

 

[Opossum]

Honestly, I rather take risks and limitations.

I'm sick of new characters "this" and new content "that." I rather/want to fix and tune up the old.

Think about and fix the possibilities.

With remaking the old, you not only risk pissing off those who liked whatever got cut, but also alienating the fans of the original in the first place, making them just go back to the older version.

It's just not worth it.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Honestly, I rather take risks and limitations.

I'm sick of new characters "this" and new content "that." I rather/want to fix and tune up the old.

Think about and fix the possibilities.

It's ridiculous. It's why patches exist, and again, the backlash would be amazing Mahvel got a lot of flak for going from 48 characters to a most likely 28 for the base roster of the next game. Imagine Smash going from near 60 to 12. Even then, that also means no side B moves aswell. "Oh, but I meant Melee or Brawl!" The Melee fans would be happy for 1 minute before realizing wavedashing and L-Cancelling inevitably gets removed and everyone will question why Brawl got a remake as Brawl fans are satisfied with 4

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Honestly, I rather take risks and limitations.

I'm sick of new characters "this" and new content "that." I rather/want to fix and tune up the old.

Think about and fix the possibilities.

Except think about Smash's primary demographic as a party game and a Nintendo crossover. You think the average player is going to care about how fine-tuned the game is if 80% of what they got to experience before is now missing in this new $60 package? "Why would I want to bring this game to my friend's house? 8-player was a lot more fun in Smash Wii U. I'll just bring that again instead."

Smash was never created as a core fighting game in mind, so focusing resources on trimming out the entire cast has no benefits to Sakurai, Nintendo or the 90% of people that play Smash. The competitive scene is a vocal minority and it's the reason we haven't gotten more competitive-orientated features thus far, meaning the majority would find it detrimental to have Smash see that kind of less-is-more approach.

The current format we have of a huge roster and gradual patches to fix them is already the optimal answer. We just need the Smash team to focus a little more on balance patches and we'll more or less get what it is we want.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Well. I was just thinking more of an SSB/SSBM/SSBB with 8 players, online play and other features of content or whatever.

I had a idea for a character roster that could react up to 50, or even 60.

It just involves working with what was offered up to 1999, 2001, or/and 2007.

Some characters, worlds, or/and other things that were relevant at that time would be given a chance to shine, right?

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Well. I was just thinking more of an SSB/SSBM/SSBB with 8 players, online play and other features of content or whatever.

I had a idea for a character roster that could react up to 50, or even 60.

It just involves working with what was offered up to 1999, 2001, or/and 2007.

Some characters, worlds, or/and other things that were relevant at that time would be given a chance to shine, right?

But them you'd give stuff after it the shaft and that's also controversial. Not to mention you might aswell make a new Smash installment by that point

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

If they didn't have enough time to include Bowser Jr. in the initial roster and he wasn't added as DLC right away what do you think the chances of him beating Bayonetta in the fighter ballot would have been?

 

[ItsMeBrandon]

Remaking games can make sense for certain genres and series, but I wouldn't say fighting games are generally good for that. Street Fighter 2 is probably the exception rather than the rule.

The thing is that fighting games are very contemporary- virtually everyone will choose to play the most current version because it usually has more and better-improved content compared to previous versions. Those who play earlier versions are likely hardcore fans who make up the minority of the demographic. Sequels to fighting games naturally add more on top of the foundation of past games- remaking older games would sort of defeat that purpose unless you propose they brought it up to contemporary standards. At which point, it might as well just be the next new game in the series.

Plus, you don't need to remake an older game to give certain characters and worlds more love- Smash 4 has Pac-Land and the GB Kirby stage, as well as the Duck Hunt fighters and stage. They brought back Roy, Dr. Mario, and Mewtwo as well.

That said, would I like a Smash 64 HD/remake? Personally, sure- I have a lot of nostalgia for that game. But I'd rather we get Smash 5 (or a port of 4, that'd be fine too), as would most people.

 

[God Robert's Cousin]

Guys, I figured it out! If you just squint your eyes really hard on the character select screen...

Presto! Smash 64 remake!

Wait, but you want to play a game with the exact same mechanics at Smash 64 as well? All this graphical update and polish doesn't mean a thing if you can't experience exactly what you already did in Smash 64?

...How would you plan on pitching this to a Nintendo executive again?

Point being, characters sell Smash Bros. and that's the end-all here. Deliberately cutting them out is counter-productive to what Smash is about.

 

[Deleted member]

A remake of Brawl specifically may not even be possible depending on how IP rights work in regards to Metal Gear content.

If they didn't have enough time to include Bowser Jr. in the initial roster and he wasn't added as DLC right away what do you think the chances of him beating Bayonetta in the fighter ballot would have been?

No chance at all.

 

[APC99]

Honestly, I rather take risks and limitations.

I'm sick of new characters "this" and new content "that." I rather/want to fix and tune up the old.

Think about and fix the possibilities.

I'm up for re-tooling some of the older characters to better fit their modern takes (Samus comes to mind as a character that could be up for a redesign, but that's an argument for another day), but the problem is that, as long as there's cuts, people will be unhappy. We've also reached a point where the majority of potential newcomers have to be from new IPs, as we're already scraping the bottom of the barrel for characters to call "Nintendo All-Stars". There aren't that many characters left who are iconic, popular and unique in their skills.

Well. I was just thinking more of an SSB/SSBM/SSBB with 8 players, online play and other features of content or whatever.

I had a idea for a character roster that could react up to 50, or even 60.

It just involves working with what was offered up to 1999, 2001, or/and 2007.

Some characters, worlds, or/and other things that were relevant at that time would be given a chance to shine, right?

I'm sorry, but this idea just seems a bit unnecessary. Let's say they make Melee HD and add in characters like Dedede, Wario, Wolf, Sonic... At what point does it stop being a remaster of Melee and just becomes SSB4 with Melee's engine and some character swaps? And that raises the question, why would I play a game that takes the roster from before, replaces popular characters like Bayonetta, Rosalina, Greninja, 2/3 of the FE cast and more with "era-appropriate characters"? Would characters like Wario / Olimar lose their modern-inspired moves? Would Ganondorf and Falco lose all of their unique abilities from Brawl / SSB4 and become clones again?

There's just a lot of controversy that'd come with that. Remaking Smash isn't really necessary, considering Smash 4 nearly perfected the balance of casual and competitive. All that's missing is some minor tweaks to the characters / mechanics and bringing in more things like Break the Targets and Adventure Mode.

 

[Opossum]

If they didn't have enough time to include Bowser Jr. in the initial roster and he wasn't added as DLC right away what do you think the chances of him beating Bayonetta in the fighter ballot would have been?

I don't think it would have been very likely at all. Bowser Jr. had some push, yeah. He was a pretty popular choice. But from what I saw he wasn't a ton of people's top choice. Most people seemed to want at least one other character more, so I think he'd get less votes, especially considering Mario got another newcomer in Rosalina, so some of his support base may have been further satisfied/discouraged.

Just my thoughts.

 

[Baskerville]

Now that I think about it has any fighting game series ever had a remake? I guess you can say MK9, but that was more of a reboot.

 

[Godzillathewonderdog]

I don't think it would have been very likely at all. Bowser Jr. had some push, yeah. He was a pretty popular choice. But from what I saw he wasn't a ton of people's top choice. Most people seemed to want at least one other character more, so I think he'd get less votes, especially considering Mario got another newcomer in Rosalina, so some of his support base may have been further satisfied/discouraged.

Just my thoughts.

Yeah, I think Bowser Jr. would have placed rather high, but I think Bayonetta would still have come out on top.

Just a thought I had.

Now that I think about it has any fighting game series ever had a remake? I guess you can say MK9, but that was more of a reboot.

I think the closest thing to a fighting game getting a remake is The King of Fighters 94 Re-Bout

 

[Arcadenik]

Guys, I figured it out! If you just squint your eyes really hard on the character select screen...

Presto! Smash 64 remake!

Wait, but you want to play a game with the exact same mechanics at Smash 64 as well? All this graphical update and polish doesn't mean a thing if you can't experience exactly what you already did in Smash 64?

...How would you plan on pitching this to a Nintendo executive again?

Point being, characters sell Smash Bros. and that's the end-all here. Deliberately cutting them out is counter-productive to what Smash is about.

Let's just wait for N64 Classic Edition to come out next year. I'm sure it will have the original Super Smash Bros.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

A remake of Brawl specifically may not even be possible depending on how IP rights work in regards to Metal Gear content.


No chance at all.

Brawl's mechanics are very infamous for drastically reducing the knockback of stale moves. That really hurts the fighters who have limited KO move options, and it's pretty much for the best if that did not rear its ugly head again.

 

[UserKev]

Brawl will always be the most serious, darkest Smash. I couldn't see my self going back to it due to its troubling, uneasy soundtrack and the depressing feel of the game.