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Smash-isms? Smash-grooves?

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
Back when I still owned a Dreamcast, I briefly played a little game called Capcom vs SNK. To make a long story short, Capcom and SNK were both well known for their fighting games. And this game pitted their best characters against each other. If you’re still not getting the picture, it’s as if Smash were combined with Virtual Fighter or Tekken and somehow the developers made it all work. Keep in mind I said <u>somehow</u>. The Capcom fighters are very different from the SNK fighters. Sure they both have punches and kicks, but beyond that everything is different. In order to preserve the style and feel of each game, Capcom vs SNK features something called grooves. By selecting different groves, when you select your character, you are free to play in the style that you prefer. If you like Street Fighter (Capcom) the best, pick that groove. If you like King of Fighters (SNK) the best, that groove is just a click away.

Street Fighter Alpha 3 has a similar feature called isms. These isms allow players to play any character in three different styles. The styles hearken back to previous games. Because the various Street Fighter games games that preceded Alpha 3 are so different, each ism was had to be balanced against each other. This is no simple task.
<p align="center"><a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/ssb-marios.jpg" title="ssb-marios.jpg"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/ssb-marios.jpg" alt="ssb-marios.jpg" /></a></p>
<p align="center">&nbsp;</p>
Now for the big question. What could this mean for Smash?

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If you’ve been playing Smash since the beginning, then you already know that Sakurai changed some things between the original and Melee. Throws have been severely toned down. L/Z-canceling no longer canceled all of your lag, but simply half of it. And you can easily DI in or out of everything. Some people claim they like Smash64 better than Melee. A lot of us feel that the changes to smash were made for the better. But, looking at the two games side by side, is one better than the other, or are they just different? It’s hard to say.

What kind of changes can we expect from Brawl? Looking at the history of the Nintendo consoles sheds some light on the situation. The N64 was the first 3D system. Smash 64 could only do so much because the industry and the developers were still in a period of youth or nonage. The result, the game speed was moderate, the projectiles were fairly large, the controls were a little loose, and all the characters floated around with a similar level of “floatyness.”
<p align="center"> <a href="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/987680405-00.jpg" title="987680405-00.jpg"><img src="http://smashboards.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/987680405-00.jpg" alt="987680405-00.jpg" /></a></p>
With the Gamecube, Sakurai had much more experience and processing power to work with. The result, a faster, more precise, fighter with many unique properties and crazy physics calculated on the fly. Now, momentum can be created and transfered in ways that Smash 64 never could. The little changes like this really enriched Melee.

So what can the Wii do that the Gamecube couldn’t? It’s as simple as more. Every aspect of Smash can be tweaked and enhanced to enrich the game further. We all know about standing on crates and footstool jumping. But these little additions are more complicated then they seem. A significant amount of computing is involved when 3D objects colliding and interacting. These two additions alone hint to a more complex and dynamic character interaction system. Perhaps now, we won’t be able to simply pass through opponents in the air or on the ground.

What if Sakurai included Smash-ism or Smash grooves into Brawl? Assuming that all options are balanced, grooves/ism would add a unique level of depth to the game. Even in Melee, players have the option to adjust their handicap and mess around with the damage ratios. Have any of us really experimented with these options? I thought about using these options to balance out the tier list, but somehow I never got around to it. This is probably because handicap and damage ratios are too complex. Thinking about ratios in relation to grabs, throws, fall rates, and all the various kinds of hits in the game is too complicated even for me. If you ask me, ism/groove are a better way to go about giving the player such options. Even if I found a way to perfectly balance Smash, I wouldn’t have anyone else to play that “version” with. Because Smash has so many options, it’s easy not to want to experiment for fear of losing company or competition. Options that manipulate the game on the core level like this should be organize into easy options like isms.

Is this idea too farfetched? I don’t think so. Capcom vs. SNK 2 EO added a new ism called GC-ism. If you guessed that the GC stands for Gamecube, then you get one hundred coins (keep in mind that they’re Coin mode coins, and they’re worth virtually nothing)! The developers made this ism because the Gamecube controllers had fewer buttons than a traditional arcade pad. In order to compensate, the gameplay was “simplified.” This sounds like the same situation Sakurai encountered when developing a control scheme for just the Wiimote. Of course, somethings have to be different. Whether it makes fighting easier or harder for you isn’t as important as finding the style that you like.

“There’s no need to be confused about what does what—just choose the play style you prefer!” ~ Sakurai.

The Brawl team is considerably larger than the Melee team, and they have been working on it for much longer than for Melee. Have you seen what the new Adventure mode looks like? (I didn’t called it the single player because it could have cooperative play). It should be clear to everything that, they’re pulling out all the stops to create the Smash to top all previous Smashes. “We’re putting tons of fighting spirit into making this game” ~Sakurai.

Isms could change everything. Just think of an item-ism that possibly sacrifices a players grabs in replacement for the ability to draw upon a limited selection of items (like Peach’s down-B). Brawl already has a lot of customization with the controls. Could this idea carry on into the characters? From additional costumes to move sets, could it all be on the table already? If Street Fighter Alpha 3 can automatically switch character costumes to more classic style when playing in classic-isms, then Brawl can do anything.

“Oh, and this is all included in the same Game Disc, so rest easy.” ~Sakurai. Sounds like the game is finished. Sakurai owns all the doors and holds all the keys.
 
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lucario21

Guest
That would be pretty nice but then theres the problem with to people choosing different “isms”or two or more people deciding on one. Overall I’d rather play it the way they want to make it now.
 
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Lava

Guest
Yeah, could be cool to have more options… some would eventually be useless, as people would list them into tiers, and then only the best groove/isms would be used. So in one sense, there’s not much point, other than to please the people who refuse to try something new. (They would only play Smash 64 style or something.)

I’m all for more depth though, and at this point there isn’t much that would surprise me. I’m expecting worlds to come crashing down with the launch of Brawl. Even so, my gut still tells me they’ll keep a certain level of simplicity. Each fighter will probably only fight one way, but I don’t want to discourage this kind of speculation. It’s interesting, and does stand a chance at becoming reality. (And yes, I was/am hoping for coop Adventure as well.)

On a different note, MAN! That box art is HORRIBLE for Smash 64! I guess that’s a testament to the popularity of Nintendo’s characters; that the game succeeded even with such a crappy cover. (Remember, not everyone had the internet in 1999… a lot of it was word of mouth.)

One more thing to note, is that these other fighters from Capcom/SNK NEEDED options like that to keep it deep. Smash is so liquid smooth and intuitive, that you’re only limited by yourself as far as depth goes. Sure you can probably make it more interesting, and throw in additional strategies, (jumping on opponent’s heads) but it still ends up just a little more than before, still amazingly deep, but this time a little different. IDK…
 
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Animal 214

Guest
i personally would not like that if wat ur saying is true it would hold a much more larger variety of countering nd idk the idea 2 me in theory is good but i dont want it in brawl……….thx 4 the support kirby kid i ended up winning the tournament
 
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homelessvagrant

Guest
The idea seems cool in concept but It would take too long to balance everything. It’d be better if they just made the game as balanced as possible.

I’d rather they just do a more elaborate costum change (rather than just changing color pallettes). That way People can still play as Dr. M (he’d be a costum change of Mario). It would be funny if you could play as characters like smash 64 mario and such. IDK why but it’d be funny.
 
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homelessvagrant

Guest
Oh and Lava, shut-up. That box art is tight.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjLy6GabB80

yeah, smash 64 is awesome. I can’t wait till it comes out on virtual console.
 
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awesome ivan

Guest
hmm… i think they might put in a “hidden” costume for everyone that you have to unlock somehow eg. finish the sse in multiplayer (PLEASE!) other then that, i dont think they should do any thing other then per. character damage ratio… abit off topic but i think stamina should replace bonus as a game mode and you should be able to have “mixed” modes so you can have stock and stamina, coin and stock ect.
 
S

Sneaky 2.0

Guest
It’s hard to imagine playing as Smash 64 Mario in The Subspace Emissary. Wouldn’t he be broken?
 
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homelessvagrant

Guest
You want coin mode? I think they should just have a second time mode where it calculates who did damage and how much. The highest damage dealer wins. a death reduces the damage count by half.
 

kirbykid

BRoomer
BRoomer
Joined
Oct 21, 2002
Messages
486
Location
Texas
^^^^
All good comments, and so early in the morning too. You’re abilities have increased.

Yes it would be a large balancing issue to have isms, and I would much prefer having the game be unified and balanced.

Smash is already one of the deepest fighters/games on the planet. However, there are some things that we simply put up with because we had to. Now that an additional layer of polish is being applied, what we can expect from Brawl is not more options for the sake of options, but for the sake of overall smoothness.

I was trying to think of ways that different Smashers with different styles and preferences could all play each other.

I had ideas about combining stamina, stock, time, and coin so that each player could choose how they wanted to play. This was interesting because a player can dodge like crazy but can’t kill would probably pick a stock-stamina combination. Balancing this idea would be a nightmare.

So I thought the isms would be the next best thing.
 
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ravenkikas

Guest
that Smash 64 commercial was soo awesome, i still remember the first time i saw it on tv, i was like: wtf!? lool
time flyes so fast.. =| I’m feeling old just by seeing that comercial lol
 
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Koiyuki

Guest
Considering the game now (supposedly) runs on the Havok physics engine, they can do a lot more stuff with the game objects, collision and so on. If they still have the original data for the other versions of characters(which, knowing them, they undoubtedly do), it could be as simple as inputting it into the game as a pallet swap, with the original picture from their respective game. Of course, balance is also a major issue, when considering these sorts of things, and it may be something they save for the next iteration(which should come out in, what, the next console life cycle, where they have us in body suits?)
 
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EvilToad01

Guest
That commercial is so funny. Look at us now spending months and years waiting and speculating over Brawl. And waiting for Melee was no picnic either. But back in the day it was just watching TV, “Hey, cool! Smash Bros, What’s that?” and then bought it.
 

neoREgen

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Aug 16, 2007
Messages
243
Location
Austin, TX
Man, reading this post scared me a little. To think that anyone thinks making this game more complex, especially while just selecting your character, could be a good thing just sent me falling down a slippery slope.

It’s the simplicity that makes this game so accessible.
While part of my inner smash-crazed self thinks it would be ultimately cool to have everything from every game, I realize how impossible it would be to have that option and still make it as undaunting as it is to pick up the control.

I mean, with as many items and physics additions as we’re getting, this game is already getting less accessible to new players. I still know people who own Melee that don’t know how to use most of the options available to them… and explaining how to play shouldn’t get progressively more difficult, otherwise this game may start falling into the dreaded realm of “hardcore” only.

But like I said: this is a slippery slope…
 
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homelessvagrant

Guest
No don’t say hardcore (it’s mainstream). Anyways smash is a deeper game. Even in smash 64 moves were assesible to only those who were deeper in the game. It’s like a reward for enjoying the game as such a level.
 
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mcs

Guest
told ya about those costumes(posted on aug, 1). its baffling that sakurai already knows the game is on one disk.

this endless waiting is torture!I WANNA PLAY BRAWL NOW!boo hoo.

off topic?: what if you can automatcally unlock characters by inserting a GCN memory card with ssbm on it?
 
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solid_snack

Guest
I really like the idea of isms or grooves, since they could allow Kirby to return to his N64 glory.
 
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homelessvagrant

Guest
Hmmm Mcs, you got a nice question. We can only wonder.
 
T

that guy

Guest
Don’t know about the others, but in SFA3 only V-ism is worthwhile at a tournament level.

I’d still like SSB64 versions of the 12: less moves and (generally) worse recovery, but with z-canceling and stronger throws.
 
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