Smash in Perspective

[J1NG]

EVO 2013 is close at hand, and I'm proud of Melee for making it to one of the biggest fighting game tournaments with the tremendous support from the Smash community. I thought about how Smash could stand on the same ground as fighting game greats like Super Street Fighter 4 AE or Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom, and it was a nice thought.
But then I started to wonder, how do the communities of those games feel about Smash? I mean, the next installments in the series are on their way, and the impact of the two games is going to shape our community yet again. I may not have the best wording but my questions to everyone here is if any one of you belongs to another fighting game community, how do the other gaming communities view Smash? Not only that, but how are their views affecting our community, if at all? What aspects of the Smash games can be attributed to these views? How much longer do you think Smash will survive, and why?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but in my mind, the idea is that a game will survive on its legacy, community, or both. Maybe this isn't the best topic for discussion, but I'd like to hear your answers to my questions and any other related discussion so as to get a good perspective of where Smash stands.

 

[TreK]

There are several answers to all these questions. It's a matter of opinions. I'll try to sum up the main opinions I've come across.
How they view our game : cool party game / cool game overall / great competitive game, though it is a lucky accident
How they view us : y u no items ?! / fkin elitists playing a game that was not meant to have elitists / fkin elitists / wow they are actually passionate about their stuff. Props.
How it affects us : meh, don't care, we're here to stay. #DealWithIt / the hate we receive is the reason we receive hate. But it doesn't matter, we'll show them why we play this game. / The hate we receive is the reason our top players and TOs do not get sponsors. We need to show them why they're wrong.

For the record, I consider all these opinions on equal footings. Some are more informed than others, but it shows that we as a community suck at communication, which is my own opinion.

 

[rawrimamonster]

How do other communities view smash? Well I think Teneban said a mouthful but I think I can extrapolate on it a lot considering that, being someone whose played 64 smash online since 2004 I've had a LOT of run-ins with the FGC as they're stereotyped/known by us. But rather than focus on one of your questions I'll give my general insight on how they view us.

For the lack of better wording, their reception of us is mixed, but very tipped towards misunderstanding and even moreso...hatred. The unfortunate thing about smash, is that because of Sakurai, and because of the outward raging of the casual community, and brawl in general, our games are not seen in a good light. The thing about how the FGC nowadays works, is that because of the nature of how their games are released, their mindset is that each new iteration of smash has to be or should be close to a clone of the last one, with rebalances, new characters, and new functionality to combos/moves. Now, I know that last bit was a generalization of your typical fighter but my point is, that because of how the larger part of smash players and even the creator and latest game are very casual, they view brawl as the representation of what ALL the smash games are. They see brawls campy planky % based fighting, view it as unhype, and dismiss the whole series based on the presentation they got FROM brawl.

We gotta look at the truth though, we are exactly counter to the wishes of the games original intent and purpose. Which is a platform %based beat em up fighter with items. Our struggle relies in rebelling against that image that Nintendo themselves is projecting the community to be.

Now getting to the real point and why I brought up my interactions. The FGC at large does not respect us, like us, or want us to be around them. I've directly been met with scorn, malice, **** talk, and downright hatred just for playing the game and not even saying a damn thing to them. Everything you could image as a smasher that FGC members would throw at us like "smash isn't a real fighter" or "gay ass ****in party game" etc. Being realistic though and getting to how this could affect us. People running large scale tournaments like EVO like us coming to that because it means more money and attendees. Attendees means more viewers, and more interest generates more business for them. As others have said, this is our chance as a community to grow. But more importantly, and I cannot stress this enough guys, and IM SURE ITS BEEN SAID... we need to change our image and get the correct info about smash AS WE PLAY IT out in the proper limelight. Otherwise, in the rest of the FGC's eyes, not just mouthy ass stupid stream monsters, we'll always be THAT community playing THAT game...you guys dont wanna be on the same level as the MLP crowd right?...

If you need an example of how uneducated they are towards Melee alone, some of them even thought tripping and metaknight were in Melee.

 

[J1NG]

There are several answers to all these questions. It's a matter of opinions. I'll try to sum up the main opinions I've come across.
How they view our game : cool party game / cool game overall / great competitive game, though it is a lucky accident
How they view us : y u no items ?! / fkin elitists playing a game that was not meant to have elitists / fkin elitists / wow they are actually passionate about their stuff. Props.
How it affects us : meh, don't care, we're here to stay. #DealWithIt / the hate we receive is the reason we receive hate. But it doesn't matter, we'll show them why we play this game. / The hate we receive is the reason our top players and TOs do not get sponsors. We need to show them why they're wrong.

For the record, I consider all these opinions on equal footings. Some are more informed than others, but it shows that we as a community suck at communication, which is my own opinion.

I've had the impression that Smash is viewed as this sort of kiddy game that isn't supposed to be taken seriously, and to hear that even Smash's top level players don't get sponsors makes me think. I love Smash for having multiple modes/things to do besides fight, and I love its flexibility as a series as it reaches out to casual and competitive gamers. But the longevity and reputation of the series seems to come from the competitive aspect of the game, which is the reason why I think projects like Airdash and Project M are started. This is the part where people will start the stupid Melee vs Brawl debates, but I'm not referring to either game when I say that, nor do I think that Smash should ever be compared to something like Street Fighter or Marvel. Basically, I feel that a lot of players who would otherwise play Smash are kept at bay because of the attitudes that other communities have about it, or the comparisons made to other games. I feel like these comparisons are really toxic, and the toxicity can carry over into Smash Wii U/3DS. I'm not sure if it's inevitable, but at the same time, I need to know if there's more that we the community can do about it...

 

[J1NG]

How do other communities view smash? Well I think Teneban said a mouthful but I think I can extrapolate on it a lot considering that, being someone whose played 64 smash online since 2004 I've had a LOT of run-ins with the FGC as they're stereotyped/known by us. But rather than focus on one of your questions I'll give my general insight on how they view us.

For the lack of better wording, their reception of us is mixed, but very tipped towards misunderstanding and even moreso...hatred. The unfortunate thing about smash, is that because of Sakurai, and because of the outward raging of the casual community, and brawl in general, our games are not seen in a good light. The thing about how the FGC nowadays works, is that because of the nature of how their games are released, their mindset is that each new iteration of smash has to be or should be close to a clone of the last one, with rebalances, new characters, and new functionality to combos/moves. Now, I know that last bit was a generalization of your typical fighter but my point is, that because of how the larger part of smash players and even the creator and latest game are very casual, they view brawl as the representation of what ALL the smash games are. They see brawls campy planky % based fighting, view it as unhype, and dismiss the whole series based on the presentation they got FROM brawl.

We gotta look at the truth though, we are exactly counter to the wishes of the games original intent and purpose. Which is a platform %based beat em up fighter with items. Our struggle relies in rebelling against that image that Nintendo themselves is projecting the community to be.

Now getting to the real point and why I brought up my interactions. The FGC at large does not respect us, like us, or want us to be around them. I've directly been met with scorn, malice, **** talk, and downright hatred just for playing the game and not even saying a damn thing to them. Everything you could image as a smasher that FGC members would throw at us like "smash isn't a real fighter" or "gay *** ****in party game" etc. Being realistic though and getting to how this could affect us. People running large scale tournaments like EVO like us coming to that because it means more money and attendees. Attendees means more viewers, and more interest generates more business for them. As others have said, this is our chance as a community to grow. But more importantly, and I cannot stress this enough guys, and IM SURE ITS BEEN SAID... we need to change our image and get the correct info about smash AS WE PLAY IT out in the proper limelight. Otherwise, in the rest of the FGC's eyes, not just mouthy *** stupid stream monsters, we'll always be THAT community playing THAT game...you guys dont wanna be on the same level as the MLP crowd right?...

If you need an example of how uneducated they are towards Melee alone, some of them even thought tripping and metaknight were in Melee.

Very good info here, I'm surprised at the tripping/metaknight in Melee thing. Just...wow. I've experienced this..."discomfort" you expressed between Smash and the FGC first hand at a fighting game club at college. To them, the competitive Smash community is the rebellious teenager of the fighting game world that needs to get on their level or GTFO. But you know, I have nothing but respect for communities like Street Fighter and Marvel, so it always feels kind of unfair. E-sports is still emerging as a legitimate form of competition and entertainment, and competitive fighting games are at the forefront of these events. If there are disputes like this going in in the FGC, it's not going to bode well for anyone.
This may seem extreme, but I think that the whole casual vs competitive debates are hurting the community to the point where the only solution to ensure that the series will survive is if it becomes an entirely separate entity, if the disputes cannot be properly resolved. I think EVO is Smash's chance to prove to other fighting games why it's still around and why it has the following that it has. Hopefully, there won't be any mud-slinging at the event...

 

[rawrimamonster]

I've got a lotta respect for mahvel myself, considering I'm absolutely horrible at it(just started playing at my friends house) but as far as SF...ehhhh....the community can be just as harsh as our arguments going back and forth between casuals and tournament players.


To be fair, as much as both sides (casual/tournament goer) feel they're right. We need to separate ourselves completely from ever arguing like that and move on. You're right, it's hurting the community. The thing with casual smashers though is, they're so convinced in their mind that somehow competitive smash keeps them down that they're ready to fight it at every turn. I've even seen them go as far as to say that somehow because we use AT's to play, we're effecting them while not even being around them...it's like some kind of preconceived inferiority complex.

tl;dr the arguments need to be discarded and ignored. in the end it's just mouthy little teenage kids and trolls.

 

[[Corn]]

I dont understand the use of the term "Casual" here.
If someone has the ability to make an account here and spend time complaining, the most certainly arent a casual player. Most of them either dont understand what a competitive game actually is because Smash tends to be a portal for many to see the new side of a game.

Stuff like Melee vs Brawl is just stupid. Stuff like Project M is pretty stupid to me as well. For some odd reason our community cannot take separation of generations of similar yet different games. It really reminds me of Pokemon honestly lol.


Thats what other communities see, they see a community fighting amongst itself for no reason other then large misunderstandings and hate.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

It's always been my view that even if we stop getting new iterations, Smash would endure because it scratches a certain gaming itch that isn't satisfied anywhere else. The core mechanic of making your opponent weaker until you can blast them out of the ring isn't really found anywhere else, and it's immensely satisfying. There's also a certain slapstick quality to the action where circumstances lead to hilariously memorable individual bouts.

Like everybody always says, though, if anything's going to kill Smash, it's the community. I love Brawl; I think it's better than Melee. There are more characters, more stages, and more ways to play, and that's what really counts. Me and my friends normally play with items turned on, and we sometimes play on Rumble Falls. Allowing for a wide gap between beginners and pros should not be the ultimate goal of any game design process.

Loosen up, Smash community, and your game will last for many years to come.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Double post, sorry.

 

[Mr. Mumbles]

I dont understand the use of the term "Casual" here.
If someone has the ability to make an account here and spend time complaining, the most certainly arent a casual player. Most of them either dont understand what a competitive game actually is because Smash tends to be a portal for many to see the new side of a game.

Stuff like Melee vs Brawl is just stupid. Stuff like Project M is pretty stupid to me as well. For some odd reason our community cannot take separation of generations of similar yet different games. It really reminds me of Pokemon honestly lol.


Thats what other communities see, they see a community fighting amongst itself for no reason other then large misunderstandings and hate.

I was always under the impression that casual player meant someone who isn't competitive. And I took competitive to me someone who actually has a decent chance of wining tournaments and stuff. As such whenever people have mentioned casual players, I have been lumping myself in there too. Sure I obsess over the smash series, and I'm pretty good among my friends, but in a real tournament I'd get owned.

 

[[Corn]]

I was always under the impression that casual player meant someone who isn't competitive. And I took competitive to me someone who actually has a decent chance of wining tournaments and stuff. As such whenever people have mentioned casual players, I have been lumping myself in there too. Sure I obsess over the smash series, and I'm pretty good among my friends, but in a real tournament I'd get owned.

The word "casual" is usually referring to the casual consumer, who comes across the game and can get into gameplay almost immediately, many of whom do not normally regard themselves as gamers, or fans of video games. Well, thats how it usually is treated anyway.

 

[J1NG]

I've got a lotta respect for mahvel myself, considering I'm absolutely horrible at it(just started playing at my friends house) but as far as SF...ehhhh....the community can be just as harsh as our arguments going back and forth between casuals and tournament players.


To be fair, as much as both sides (casual/tournament goer) feel they're right. We need to separate ourselves completely from ever arguing like that and move on. You're right, it's hurting the community. The thing with casual smashers though is, they're so convinced in their mind that somehow competitive smash keeps them down that they're ready to fight it at every turn. I've even seen them go as far as to say that somehow because we use AT's to play, we're effecting them while not even being around them...it's like some kind of preconceived inferiority complex.

tl;dr the arguments need to be discarded and ignored. in the end it's just mouthy little teenage kids and trolls.

You know the worst thing about it is, one person's preference on how to enjoy themselves should not be a problem to another person who enjoys themselves differently. And you are right, there certainly is a level of immaturity that has to exist in order for these kinds of differences to become a problem.

The word "casual" is usually referring to the casual consumer, who comes across the game and can get into gameplay almost immediately, many of whom do not normally regard themselves as gamers, or fans of video games. Well, thats how it usually is treated anyway.

Yes. Of course, when I use the word casual in the context of fighting games, or in phrases like "casual and competitive", I am of course referring to those groups of gamers that have not or do not seek to refine their skill to a competitive level, or someone who does not seek enjoyment from a game by playing at top level. Something along those lines.

It's always been my view that even if we stop getting new iterations, Smash would endure because it scratches a certain gaming itch that isn't satisfied anywhere else. The core mechanic of making your opponent weaker until you can blast them out of the ring isn't really found anywhere else, and it's immensely satisfying. There's also a certain slapstick quality to the action where circumstances lead to hilariously memorable individual bouts.

Like everybody always says, though, if anything's going to kill Smash, it's the community. I love Brawl; I think it's better than Melee. There are more characters, more stages, and more ways to play, and that's what really counts. Me and my friends normally play with items turned on, and we sometimes play on Rumble Falls. Allowing for a wide gap between beginners and pros should not be the ultimate goal of any game design process.

Loosen up, Smash community, and your game will last for many years to come.

And you know, that's totally fine that you like Brawl over Melee. I agree with you entirely on how Smash scratches that certain gaming itch in the ways you described. It truly is a unique experience. Of course, there will eventually be those people who make their case in an immature manner, but those people should be an exception in any given community. As you said, "loosening up" at this point can only benefit the community and increase the longevity of the series.

 

[J1NG]

*double post strikes again

 

[mimgrim]

I've tried playing fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, DOA, ect... And they are just to complex for me, curve control stiack one way ten press like 7 different buttons in a row and fast to get the combo yea that is jsut to much for me. Smash has a simplicity to it compared to the typical fighting games to where you don't actually have to curve the control stick for any of the moves, tilt yes but not curve, and press so many different button in such a short amount of time while also having a complexity to it at the same time. I never understood the whole Brawl VS Melee or Casual VS competitive shiz, why do you care how someone else plays the game or if they prefer a game over another? It doesn't affect you does it? I actually prefer Brawl myself due to the slower gameplay and the fact it feels smoother to me, don't get me wrong I still enjoy Melee but I like how Brawl is more of a spcaing fighting style then combo hits fighting style, but I don't care if someone else prefers Melee, good for them i say. But yea I never understood all thhose debates. :/ I just like Smash due to the cimplicity it offers over the typical fighting game, which I am no good at. xD

 

[[Corn]]

Yes. Of course, when I use the word casual in the context of fighting games, or in phrases like "casual and competitive", I am of course referring to those groups of gamers that have not or do not seek to refine their skill to a competitive level, or someone who does not seek enjoyment from a game by playing at top level. Something along those lines

Exactly my point. Casual Consumer and Casual Gamer are two different things.

Someone who cares about the game will make sacrifices, accept changes, and learn things in order to progress. They tend not to care about what others think about them or the game that they are playing as long as they enjoy it whilst learning. This is the mindset of a competitive gamer to me. I consider most of the people who play 64/Melee/Brawl today this. They are certainly not a casual even if they may/may not be worse then the majority, in fact this makes them generally very tolerant towards others who have different views and acceptance of different games. They generally are "Silent" in terms of usage on sites like this.

Someone who doesn't really care about the game will not make sacrifices nor accept change but they may learn tactics in order to progress. This is purely the mindset of a gamer who is either misguided about the competitive sides of all games or one who wishes to for all games to be played in a fairly specific manner that they enjoy. Sad thing is this mindset is common in many high level players in many different games. I will consider these players who have this mindset casuals regardless of skill. These are the types of players who arent content with a simple, "That game? Im not really a fan of it" and instead say, "That game? Why play that one when this one or that one is clearly better?". They generally are the loudest when it comes to protest but the quietest when it comes to praise.

Stuff like this is in all communities and all games.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Surprised that die hard melee fans view street fighter 4 and marvel vs capcom 3 as competitive games while the street fighter and marvel vs capcom communities shun the new games.
Could it possibly be because the new games directed towards a more casual crowd and adopted an optional simplified way to execute special moves like Hadoukens. By pressing the special move button and a direction on the analog stick (Like in Smash Bros) you can execute different special moves. Of course this is optional and you can still do the multi direction quarter circle etc. inputs.

Anyway those communities have members similar to the die hard melee folk in our community who view Street Fighter 3 and Marvel vs Capcom 2 as the best games, and Street Fighter 4 and Marvel Vs Capcom 3 in contempt.

For the most part all communities agree that Smash Bros is probably THE hypest game out (especially now that Megaman is joining the roster) but believe it should stay out of tournaments, as it isn't a traditional fighter.

It's sad that people think that being able to quarter circle punch instead of just pressing B makes them superior, if the traditional fighters adopted a simplified way of executing special moves like in Smash Bros they could focus less on accidental inputs and more on the strategy, a true battle with no mistakes caused by mis inputs, which is the tripping of traditional fighters. At least that's what I like so much about smash, no excuse and no way for error as it is so simple, yet the characters have more moves than traditional fighters, but not hundreds like in Tekken, man the Tekken community probably views everybody as inferior. I mean sh#$ that game is about as realistic as you can get while still be insanely fun, and requires the most training cause ya gotta learn literally thousands of moves.

 

[J1NG]

I've tried playing fighting games like Street Fighter, Tekken, DOA, ect... And they are just to complex for me, curve control stiack one way ten press like 7 different buttons in a row and fast to get the combo yea that is jsut to much for me. Smash has a simplicity to it compared to the typical fighting games to where you don't actually have to curve the control stick for any of the moves, tilt yes but not curve, and press so many different button in such a short amount of time while also having a complexity to it at the same time.

I agree, there's something about Street Fighter that never clicked with me. I mean, I might like it more if I were better at it, but trying to get good at it was never really fun, and it felt like a chore that I had to do just so that I could play the game with my friends.

These are the types of players who arent content with a simple, "That game? Im not really a fan of it" and instead say, "That game? Why play that one when this one or that one is clearly better?". They generally are the loudest when it comes to protest but the quietest when it comes to praise.

Stuff like this is in all communities and all games.

Yes, it's good to point that out. There are many other gaming communities with immature attitudes. And there will be people who will claim that their tastes are superior to others' by listing facts. Pretty obnoxious if you ask me.

Surprised that die hard melee fans view street fighter 4 and marvel vs capcom 3 as competitive games while the street fighter and marvel vs capcom communities shun the new games.
Could it possibly be because the new games directed towards a more casual crowd and adopted an optional simplified way to execute special moves like Hadoukens. By pressing the special move button and a direction on the analog stick (Like in Smash Bros) you can execute different special moves. Of course this is optional and you can still do the multi direction quarter circle etc. inputs.

Anyway those communities have members similar to the die hard melee folk in our community who view Street Fighter 3 and Marvel vs Capcom 2 as the best games, and Street Fighter 4 and Marvel Vs Capcom 3 in contempt.

For the most part all communities agree that Smash Bros is probably THE hypest game out (especially now that Megaman is joining the roster) but believe it should stay out of tournaments, as it isn't a traditional fighter.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking. Although I see Smash's duality as both a fighting game and a party game as a part of it's unique strength and not a "weakness", as some communities may see it. The hard part is making sure that outsiders don't associate one aspect of play with the other just because they're under the same roof, so to speak.


I came across this address in my Google search. It was interesting to hear what outsiders have to say:
http://www.giantbomb.com/super-smas...s/is-super-smash-bros-a-fighting-game-496112/

 

[Mr.C]

Melee has earned respect within the competitive fighting game community. Brawl has not, rightfully so.

 

[HeroMystic]

I came across this address in my Google search. It was interesting to hear what outsiders have to say:
http://www.giantbomb.com/super-smas...s/is-super-smash-bros-a-fighting-game-496112/

I read that thread, and this is what I got out of that.

I better place to "question" is Dustloop, if you want to get a competitive player's perspective. If casual, probably best to try GameFAQs.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Melee has earned respect within the competitive fighting game community. Brawl has not, rightfully so.

But the fact that Melee earned that respect was a total fluke. It was never designed to be a high-level competitive game in the same vein as SF, GG or KoF, and as long as we're hung up on that fact, the community won't ever be taken seriously.

What if, instead, the community aspired to be something else?

What if instead of trying to contort the game to broaden the skill gap between players, we embraced the game's true chaotic nature.
What if every time somebody asked "Is Smash Bros. a fighting game?" we proudly stated:
"Sort of. It's kind of it's own thing.".

 

[J1NG]

I read that thread, and this is what I got out of that.

I better place to "question" is Dustloop, if you want to get a competitive player's perspective. If casual, probably best to try GameFAQs.

Hahahaha, I suppose you're right about that one. I found that link after a 5 second Google search. I'll look around in those other places you mentioned.

What if, instead, the community aspired to be something else?

What if instead of trying to contort the game to broaden the skill gap between players, we embraced the game's true chaotic nature.
What if every time somebody asked "Is Smash Bros. a fighting game?" we proudly stated:
"Sort of. It's kind of it's own thing.".

Well the idea is that some players are taking this approach. This is the divide among the community: those who would embrace Smash for what it was intended, and those who embrace Smash for what it has become.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Well the idea is that some players are taking this approach. This is the divide among the community: those who would embrace Smash for what it was intended, and those who embrace Smash for what it has become.

Perhaps we can do both. We can all embrace Brawl for what was intended, and we can all embrace Melee for what it has become.
I will embrace Smash 4 for whatever it will be.

But I think we're getting a little off topic. In the greater fighting-game community, Smash Bros. often gets sneered at for not being a "real" fighting game, which by some definitions it isn't, but this is an argument over semantics, and it's irrelevant. What is relevant is deciding what Smash Bros. really is, and what it's good at.

Regarding the skill gap between players; different fighting games have different skill gaps, but over a long enough time frame any skill gap becomes more apparent. Even using all items and random stages, if enough games of Smash Bros. are played, the players with the most skill with stand out. For this reason, I think it's possible to play competitive Smash in a different way, and really make it stand apart from other games, and really earn its place as a unique gem in the fighting game community.

 

[J1NG]

Perhaps we can do both. We can all embrace Brawl for what was intended, and we can all embrace Melee for what it has become.
I will embrace Smash 4 for whatever it will be.

But I think we're getting a little off topic. In the greater fighting-game community, Smash Bros. often gets sneered at for not being a "real" fighting game, which by some definitions it isn't, but this is an argument over semantics, and it's irrelevant. What is relevant is deciding what Smash Bros. really is, and what it's good at.

Regarding the skill gap between players; different fighting games have different skill gaps, but over a long enough time frame any skill gap becomes more apparent. Even using all items and random stages, if enough games of Smash Bros. are played, the players with the most skill with stand out. For this reason, I think it's possible to play competitive Smash in a different way, and really make it stand apart from other games, and really earn its place as a unique gem in the fighting game community.

I honestly think that Smash Bros has many faces. You can play with no items, or play with all items on, or some items on, or do teams with any one of those. Smash's biggest strength is its flexibility in terms of gameplay. Indeed, if there were competitive scenes for item play, then the face of Smash today would be very different. I think that some people would say that such a scene would be a bad thing for Smash's image, since it's too different from the established greats like Street Fighter. But no item play is already undergoing the same criticism, so perhaps it's unavoidable, eh?

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

Perhaps. As this is technically a Smash 4 discussion, it's worth mentioning that until Smash 4 comes out, there's no way of knowing how the tournament scene will react to it, but we can assume that it can only improve the reputation of the series, as I'd be very surprised if it had less competitive viability than Brawl.

I suppose the next step is to make sure the community is agreed on how Smash 4 will be played at tournaments (promoting diversity, ideally) to put our best foot forward, as it were.

 

[Renji64]

N64 hardcore, Melee Hardcore, Brawl Casual Sakurai said so himself. Smash 4 Unknown.

 

[J1NG]

Perhaps. As this is technically a Smash 4 discussion, it's worth mentioning that until Smash 4 comes out, there's no way of knowing how the tournament scene will react to it, but we can assume that it can only improve the reputation of the series, as I'd be very surprised if it had less competitive viability than Brawl.

I suppose the next step is to make sure the community is agreed on how Smash 4 will be played at tournaments (promoting diversity, ideally) to put our best foot forward, as it were.

Yes, I would love to see different sections of Smash 4 tournaments, from teams to items to no items and even select items. Even if the community lashes out after Smash 4, we can make a difference by bringing up these discussions. I have to say, I am a little concerned about all the newcomers that Brawl attracted. That's another generation that needs to be initiated into the ways of Smash. Haha
Maybe we'll get tag battles as a pleasant surprises? I have a bunch of ideas on how that could work.

N64 hardcore, Melee Hardcore, Brawl Casual Sakurai said so himself. Smash 4 Unknown.

Haha indeed.

 

[Mr.C]

But the fact that Melee earned that respect was a total fluke. It was never designed to be a high-level competitive game in the same vein as SF, GG or KoF, and as long as we're hung up on that fact, the community won't ever be taken seriously.

What if, instead, the community aspired to be something else?

What if instead of trying to contort the game to broaden the skill gap between players, we embraced the game's true chaotic nature.
What if every time somebody asked "Is Smash Bros. a fighting game?" we proudly stated:
"Sort of. It's kind of it's own thing.".

A game being "designed" for a certain level is irrelevant. You either have a game that's extremely deep, technical, and skill-intensive regarding game-play or you do not. Melee fell within the category, Brawl did not. You can believe Hello Kitty Online takes massive amounts of skill to play but that doesn't change reality.

 

[BADGRAPHICS]

A game being "designed" for a certain level is irrelevant. You either have a game that's extremely deep, technical, and skill-intensive regarding game-play or you do not. Melee fell within the category, Brawl did not. You can believe Hello Kitty Online takes massive amounts of skill to play but that doesn't change reality.

Believe it or not, I do agree with you. Yes, Melee falls into that category, and it's a wonderfully deep competitive game. However, the fact that it obviously wasn't designed to only be played the way competitive players play it causes other fighting game fans to view it with scepticism. I think that if we (and by we, I mean the minority in the community who refuse all but the juicy core of Melee) embrace Smash in its entirety, it will be more accepted by the doubters and the wider community, and we'll stop scaring off new recruits.

You can play Brawl competitively. Even with items. Victories might not always be as clear-cut as Melee, but randomness is embraced in a lot of competitive communities. Not just in video games either, look at poker or mahjong, which have enormous thriving communities, where often somebody who wins large sums of money can be decided on what is effectively the flip of a coin. Why are we so reluctant?

 

[El Duderino]

But then I started to wonder, how do the communities of those games feel about Smash?

Not that they necessarily represent the spectrum of opinions in the FGC, but here's UltraChenTVs take on Melee's recent success and their reaction to Sakurai's Kotaku Interview.

 

[J1NG]

Believe it or not, I do agree with you. Yes, Melee falls into that category, and it's a wonderfully deep competitive game. However, the fact that it obviously wasn't designed to only be played the way competitive players play it causes other fighting game fans to view it with scepticism. I think that if we (and by we, I mean the minority in the community who refuse all but the juicy core of Melee) embrace Smash in its entirety, it will be more accepted by the doubters and the wider community, and we'll stop scaring off new recruits.

You can play Brawl competitively. Even with items. Victories might not always be as clear-cut as Melee, but randomness is embraced in a lot of competitive communities. Not just in video games either, look at poker or mahjong, which have enormous thriving communities, where often somebody who wins large sums of money can be decided on what is effectively the flip of a coin. Why are we so reluctant?

That is an excellent point when you consider that Poker is also televised. If games like Street Fighter and Smash Bros. were televised, I think Smash would be standing on solid ground at that point. I gave the item tournament scene some more thought, and decided that it may be a good idea to be perfectly clear which tournament scene you would be watching because if someone watched an item tournament with the assumption that they're watching what they consider to be footage of a "fighting game tournament", it could give them the wrong impression.

Not that they necessarily represent the spectrum of opinions in the FGC, but here's UltraChenTVs take on Melee's recent success and their reaction to Sakurai's Kotaku Interview.

That is an interesting tidbit of info there. Chen pretty much nailed it when he mentioned Sakurai's statement on the genre of Smash. I had to shrug when they brought up Brawl though; I don't want to diss the game but the reality is that it's certainly not as well received in the fighting game community as Melee, and how many times has that point been asserted. It's good to know that we're not the only ones who want a competitively viable Smash 4.