Official Smash for Switch 2 - Speculation & Discussion Thread

[DarthEnderX]

Perhaps not… but the point is more people would be excited over Alucard.

Fair enough.

Do you guys think Smash should replace Giga Bowser with Fury Bowser in both the boss fight and Final Smash?

Yes.

makes me wonder if Ganon The Demon King should be replaced with Demon Dragon as Ganondorf's Final Smash.

Nah. OoT Ganon is still peak Ganon.

That’s possible. Knowing Sakurai though, he’d likely want to pack it with as much extra content as possible so I think there’s a chance we could even get enough extra content to be comparable to what we would have gotten in a brand new entry. Having a base to work from likely saves a ton of time that he could use to add more characters, modes, and features. Sakurai just doesn’t strike me as someone that would be content with just putting out the bare minimum it would take just to sell the game. I feel like his passion wouldn’t allow that.

On top of that, Sakurai considers Ultimate to be his tribute to Iwata. So he seems invested making it as incredible as possible.

I think I’m one of the only people that doesn’t care about the online. I personally find online gaming frustrating. I have a lot more fun just playing with friends or even just an AI.

I also prefer playing locally with friends to playing online. But I acknowledge that rollback is hugely important to any modern fighting game.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It's also worth noting that the time between Brawl and Ultimate has allowed Sakurai & company to really refine their skills in getting the portrait of fighters right. I know post SSBB characters often get labeled as being too gimmicky/excessively faithful, but someone like K Rool feels like a much more accurate sense of the character's traits vs. a Diddy Kong, despite that on paper neither seems particularly erroneous in design.

 

[Louie G.]

I’m at a point where I either have to cut one of my most essential third parties, Add another line and come up with a bunch more first parties to fit it, Or have zero new third parties (Until DLC).
Pick your poison guys.

Well, I guess it depends. Within my 'essential' third parties, maybe like 5-6 of them, I'm not willing to be very flexible. Frankly I don't think "zero new third parties" is a realistic option either given the current state of the series and expectations, so I would at least make the effort to carve out space for two or three of them. I guess I can't really give you a good answer unless I know who this anchor third party is.

How big is your roster? I thought it was a good size before, so adding a whole other line feels... a bit unnecessary (why do you need a whole new line instead of just reorganizing what you have?), but also probably overkill.

 

[DarthEnderX]

But I'm not sure how much your average customer will care when there are some games even older than Ultimate that are still profitable to this day, from games that are just a year older to one that's almost two decades older. And a lot of those older games are multiplayer-focused, just like Smash, so...

This.

World of WarCraft is still alive and kicking despite being released over 20 years ago. It may not be as popular as it once was but it still gets updates and has an active player base.

Including me.

And Smash isn't even charging me a subscription fee.

If that series had a character, it should be Leroy Jenkins. That would be funny!

Perfect Assist Trophy.

 

[Guynamednelson]

And Smash isn't even charging me a subscription fee.

I'm sure you wish it did though.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

For me it's really a matter of this. Look at any amount of fan movesets, and then look at Smash. I can count the amount of "accurate" or reference heavy fan movesets I've seen that I think are honest to god better than the movesets we have in Smash on one hand.

Also if it's about the execution, I don't think moveset overhauls are that common in polished mods or fan games outside of changing a few moves. An example is how most of the moveset overhauls for Project M/Plus were for the Brawl newcomers. N64 and Melee characters got new stuff like a new move or two but they were generally reverts like with Falco. Although there are obviously exceptions.

 

[Gengar84]

I’m in the extreme minority here but I feel like WarCraft’s legacy and influence in gaming history should be enough to at least be on the table for discussion for a DLC fighter despite its lack of Nintendo presence. I view it in much the same way as Halo. Both series revolutionized their respective genres and still receive support to this day. Both are also now owned by Microsoft. If anything, I’d put WarCraft slightly ahead of Halo in terms of historical significance. It’s been hugely influential in both RTS games and MMORPGs while also directly inspiring the creation of the MOBA genre (which, in turn, played some influence in the creation of Hero shooters). Halo had a similar impact on FPS games but the impact was limited mostly to just that genre. GoldenEye and Perfect Dark were also very successful console FPS games that paved the way for Halo and both were Nintendo exclusive.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

Well, I guess it depends. Within my 'essential' third parties, maybe like 5-6 of them, I'm not willing to be very flexible. Frankly I don't think "zero new third parties" is a realistic option either given the current state of the series and expectations, so I would at least make the effort to carve out space for two or three of them. I guess I can't really give you a good answer unless I know who this anchor third party is.

How big is your roster? I thought it was a good size before, so adding a whole other line feels... a bit unnecessary (why do you need a whole new line instead of just reorganizing what you have?), but also probably overkill.

Last time it was 64 slots, I cut down on third parties so now it’s 56 slots. I’m really trying to make it as square as possible, I could just black out some of the slots on the last line though. The third parties I have right now are:
Pac-Man, Insanely iconic and also kind of invented the concept of a video game character.
Hero, From the series that defined what is considered an rpg. Also one of the best represented third parties in Smash.
Ryu, From the series that defined fighting games. Also pretty much Mr. Crossover.
Sonic, One of the most popular and recognizable video game characters ever. Mario and Sonic at the Olympics.
Steve, From the best selling game of all time.
The only third party character I feel super confident about doing next to those is the Tamagotchi/Digimon character (Cause the other ones I had done, Rayman isn’t famous or important enough, Capcom already has a character. (Tamagotchi is from the Bandai side by the way) And the only other idea I was really considering was some kind of indie game representative.)
Doomguy maybe?
As far as cut table slots the only ones I have that I feel like are cuttable are Dark Pit and DJ Octavio. Dark Pit is my slot to cut for if K. Rool comes back in Bananza. And I kind of don’t want to cut DJ Octavio because I’m imagining him being mechanically neat, And I don’t want to cut him for someone who wouldn’t be as mechanically interesting (Doomguy.)
So I’m really leaning to that Tamagotchi/Digimon rep even though it’s kind of an unconventional choice.

 

[LiveStudioAudience]

It does say something about Nintendo and Blizzard Entertainment's separate paths in gaming that the most frequent representation of the latter on the former's consoles has mega famous IP's like Diablo and Overwatch being tied with the Lost Vikings.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

It's also worth noting that the time between Brawl and Ultimate has allowed Sakurai & company to really refine their skills in getting the portrait of fighters right. I know post SSBB characters often get labeled as being too gimmicky/excessively faithful, but someone like K Rool feels like a much more accurate sense of the character's traits vs. a Diddy Kong, despite that on paper neither seems particularly erroneous in design.

To be fair to Diddy, he very likely had a whole different style to him that had to be changed mid-development once the tag team with Dixie was canceled.

 

[Louie G.]

Last time it was 64 slots, I cut down on third parties so now it’s 56 slots. I’m really trying to make it as square as possible, I could just black out some of the slots on the last line though.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it being "square", I doubt that will factor into the real roster very much. Somewhere like 60 characters seems alright to me. I'm unsure how big I expect the roster to be myself but I guess it depends how much you anticipate will change between games. I think you could easily get away with 64 again assuming you're considering echoes to be distinguished slots? You mention Dark Pit here, anyway.

What I would do is add Mega Man back, add your new character, keep DJ Octavio and then just worry about two more characters whoever those are. Maybe you could bring K. Rool back and then add in a second third party (if you're considering an indie character, my suggestion would be Undertale). I'm not sure how I feel about Tamagotchi or Digimon as the choice myself but it's a pretty inspired one. I also don't think Konami is going anywhere but I won't split hairs with you too much further on that, since you're struggling to narrow things down as is.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

To be fair to Diddy, he very likely had a whole different style to him that had to be changed mid-development once the tag team with Dixie was canceled.

I would imagine that frame rate was an issue in a free for all and that they would have been more complex compared to the Ice Climbers.

Likely applies to Rex and Pyra in Ultimate when that was planned.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it being "square", I doubt that will factor into the real roster very much. Somewhere like 60 characters seems alright to me. I'm unsure how big I expect the roster to be myself but I guess it depends how much you anticipate will change between games. I think you could easily get away with 64 again assuming you're considering echoes to be distinguished slots? You mention Dark Pit here, anyway.

What I would do is add Mega Man back, add your new character, keep DJ Octavio and then just worry about two more characters whoever those are. Maybe you could bring K. Rool back and then add in a second third party (if you're considering an indie character, my suggestion would be Undertale). I'm not sure how I feel about Tamagotchi or Digimon as the choice myself but it's a pretty inspired one. I also don't think Konami is going anywhere but I won't split hairs with you too much further on that, since you're struggling to narrow things down as is.

What if I just, Add back in Snake, Mega Man, and K. Rool. Then the Tamagotchi/Digimon character and Undertale character. And then I have one more slot for fun and I can black out the other two on the line for 62 slots total.

 

[Gengar84]

I personally don’t see Smash cutting Cloud or Sephiroth at this point now that the big titles like FFVII Remake are finally going to start appearing on Nintendo hardware again. That’s a pretty big deal and something I’d think they’d want to promote and celebrate.

 

[GoldenYuiitusin]

I personally don’t see Smash cutting Cloud or Sephiroth at this point now that the big titles like FFVII Remake are finally going to start appearing on Nintendo hardware again. That’s a pretty big deal and something I’d think they’d want to promote and celebrate.

Final Fantasy VII DLC Pack because Square wants that sweet post-release profit.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I personally don’t see Smash cutting Cloud or Sephiroth at this point now that the big titles like FFVII Remake are finally going to start appearing on Nintendo hardware again. That’s a pretty big deal and something I’d think they’d want to promote and celebrate.

I think its likely if there is FF character in the base game of Smash 6, it will probably just be Cloud with another character such Sephiroth being added as DLC.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

Final Fantasy VII DLC Pack because Square wants that sweet post-release profit.

I could see them and honestly half expect Square doing this, even though I can also see Hero coming back in base next game.

FF7 Remake is Square's huge multi-part release that's been coming out for 5 years now, so I could definitely see Cloud, Sephiroth, and their content all being a big veteran pack to play into that.

EDIT: Basically, the way I could see it going is Hero in base so they keep a foot in the door and get that licensing money because Dragon Quest is huge in Japan and has that high level of association with Nintendo already I'm pretty sure, then Cloud and Sephiroth relatively early on as a DLC double veteran pack with their content for DLC veteran money, and then Square could add a new series like Nier later on in the DLC to get DLC newcomer money.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

3.0

 

[Louie G.]

Basically, the way I could see it going is Hero in base so they keep a foot in the door and get that licensing money because Dragon Quest is huge in Japan and has that high level of association with Nintendo already I'm pretty sure, then Cloud and Sephiroth relatively early on as a DLC double veteran pack with their content for DLC veteran money, and then Square could add a new series like Nier later on in the DLC to get DLC newcomer money.

This is exactly what I'm expecting at this point. Frankly I've kinda grown to see Cloud and Sephiroth as sort of a package deal. I don't think receding back to Smash 4 levels of representation is something they'd be willing to do this time and if you're gonna get all the other stuff, I dunno why you wouldn't also try for Sephiroth yknow? This is a slippery slope mindset but we're talking about SEPHIROTH here. As for why Dragon Quest takes priority, I'm just under the impression that we'll want to prioritize some of the Ultimate returnees instead of making them out to be one and done. In with the new I say.

I think it'd also just be sorta unrealistic to go through exactly the same cycle we had to go through in Ultimate. Is it lame to have to buy Cloud as DLC again too? ...Yeah, it is. But I think it'd be more justifiable this way than the individual Sephiroth sale for a second time in a row. Ideally with some new content from the Remake.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

View attachment 402706
3.0

Maybe I would stack the echoes unless the ones picked are unique characters.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Maybe I would stack the echoes unless the ones picked are unique characters.

Demifiend didn't toggle the option in the settings so you're getting the unstacked version

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

No one has acknowledged Lolo yet lol.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

This is exactly what I'm expecting at this point. Frankly I've kinda grown to see Cloud and Sephiroth as sort of a package deal. I don't think receding back to Smash 4 levels of representation is something they'd be willing to do this time and if you're gonna get all the other stuff, I dunno why you wouldn't also try for Sephiroth yknow? This is a slippery slope mindset but we're talking about SEPHIROTH here. As for why Dragon Quest takes priority, I'm just under the impression that we'll want to prioritize some of the Ultimate returnees instead of making them out to be one and done. In with the new I say.

I think it'd also just be sorta unrealistic to go through exactly the same cycle we had to go through in Ultimate. Is it lame to have to buy Cloud as DLC again too? ...Yeah, it is. But I think it'd be more justifiable this way than the individual Sephiroth sale for a second time in a row. Ideally with some new content from the Remake.

It's not quite the same but I also kinda half expect Simon to be base even if Snake's not there? I dunno that there's a reason to cut Snake, but since he was absent in 4 I feel like there's precedent and there may have been a reason for it? Like yeah, they might have just not approached Konami about Snake to begin with, but it could also be something behind the scenes we don't know about with Snake only returning because of Everyone Is Here. In which scenario I could see Simon coming back over Snake and then Snake either comes back as vet DLC or potentially just misses out again.

Obviously I'm less certain on that one because Simon was base game and Castlevania got a lot of stuff in Ultimate, so Konami is probably pretty cooperative and there may be no reason to cut Snake again, but I just figure the possibility could be there at least.

To be clear, I'm like 95% sure Simon will come back personally, just mostly talking about Snake here I guess lol

 

[Louie G.]

Obviously I'm less certain on that one because Simon was base game and Castlevania got a lot of stuff in Ultimate, so Konami is probably pretty cooperative and there may be no reason to cut Snake again, but I just figure the possibility could be there at least.

I'm personally counting on Simon / Richter to return without Snake too... again, not much rhyme or reason, but just using a few guiding principles.

• I expect Konami to be involved again
• I think it's important to prioritize bringing back new characters from Ultimate
• Castlevania was given the red carpet treatment, and Metal Gear mostly recycled material from Brawl

If nothing else, I do think Castlevania will be higher priority. I can see Snake returning as well seeing that Konami seemed very cooperative, but I just have to draw the line somewhere for my guest character lineup. I'm sure we'll see a handful of cuts that don't feel quite fair but just happen anyway. And I really just want to avoid falling back so heavily on the pre-Ultimate third parties.

And to clarify, I do designate the logic of "if x, why not y" to Cloud / Sephiroth under the specific pretense that they are from the same series. If we're negotiating to use Tifa, Barret, Aerith's etc likeness for spirits or trophies and so forth then I just think you'd have to go out of your way not to try and get Sephiroth back lol. But despite both being Konami I have to imagine it's not quite as simple as saying hey, we've got Simon, can we also have Snake?

 

[Thegameandwatch]

he was absent in 4 I feel like there's precedent and there may have been a reason for it?

There wasn’t a confirmed reason for Snake not being in Smash 4 since Smash 4 was being planned around the same time as MGS3 on 3DS. I assume it’s just Nintendo not contacting them or vice versa.

What happened between Koijima and Konami was closer to Ultimate being planned or at least publicly.

 

[TheFirstPoppyBro]

I'm personally counting on Simon / Richter to return without Snake too... again, not much rhyme or reason, but just using a few guiding principles.

• I expect Konami to be involved again
• I think it's important to prioritize bringing back new characters from Ultimate
• Castlevania was given the red carpet treatment, and Metal Gear mostly recycled material from Brawl

If nothing else, I do think Castlevania will be higher priority. I can see Snake returning as well seeing that Konami seemed very cooperative, but I just have to draw the line somewhere for my guest character lineup. I'm sure we'll see a handful of cuts that don't feel quite fair but just happen anyway.

Yeah like Castlevania has Simon, Richter, Dracula's Castle, Dracula as a boss, most of its tracks are remixes, Alucard AT, Death's Scythe as an item which third parties typically don't get...

Plus Simon was already base game in Ultimate, so it's not like anything would change on that front unlike most of Ultimate's new third parties. Castlevania feels like a pretty safe bet.

There wasn’t a confirmed reason for Snake not being in Smash 4 since Smash 4 was being planned around the same time as MGS3 on 3DS. I assume it’s just Nintendo not contacting them or vice versa.

This is true, but considering Sakurai is friends with Kojima and Sakurai if I recall correctly has mentioned before that he doesn't like cutting characters because every character has their fans (though this may not matter depending on who does the contacting), so I feel like a scenario where Konami is just never contacted to begin with, not even for DLC is very peculiar imo, which makes me wonder if it's more than just that.

 

[Louie G.]

This is true, but considering Sakurai is friends with Kojima and Sakurai if I recall correctly has mentioned before that he doesn't like cutting characters because every character has their fans (though this may not matter depending on who does the contacting), so I feel like a scenario where Konami is just never contacted to begin with, not even for DLC is very peculiar imo, which makes me wonder if it's more than just that.

We'll probably never know, but it's possible the mindset behind guest characters is (or maybe was, at the time) just different than people think.

Third parties are still a striking question mark on the roster right now with Sonic being the only character who has been brought back fully independent of Everyone is Here. While I'm sure certain other collaborators like Capcom, Namco and IMO Konami are safe bets for the distant future, I think we need one more game to fully establish the precedent of how guest characters are treated in Smash under conventional series progression. For all we know, Snake was negotiated as a guest character in Brawl and they simply were content leaving him there. That's how these crossovers work in nearly every other series out there.

And Sonic is... well, it's Sonic. Probably helps that Sega had an exclusivity deal with Nintendo at the time too. Ask almost anyone though and I think 80% of the answers to "if we could only keep one third party" would be him, so it's hard to use him as a compass.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

We'll probably never know, but it's possible the mindset behind guest characters is (or maybe was, at the time) just different than people think.

Third parties are still a striking question mark on the roster right now with Sonic being the only character who has been brought back fully independent of Everyone is Here. While I'm sure certain collaborators like Capcom, Namco and IMO Konami are safe bets for the distant future, I think we need one more game to fully establish the precedent of how guest characters are treated in Smash under conventional series progression. For all we know, Snake was negotiated as a guest character in Brawl and they simply were content leaving him there. That's how these crossovers work in nearly every other series out there.

And Sonic is... well, it's Sonic. Probably helps that Sega had an exclusivity deal with Nintendo at the time too. Ask almost anyone though and I think 80% of the answers to "if we could only keep one third party" would be him, so it's hard to use him as a compass.

I'm pretty sure the reason Snake isn't in Smash For is just cause they wanted to have the three mascots together as the third party characters and he would of threw that off. They could have gone for like Bomberman though. Or maybe MAYBE MAAAAAAYYYYBEEEEEE Goemon if the acquisition of Hudson was too recent.

 

[Thegameandwatch]

I think we need one more game to fully establish the precedent of how guest characters are treated in Smash under conventional series progression. For all we know, Snake was negotiated as a guest character in Brawl and they simply were content leaving him there.

I mentioned this before but also how characters will stay in general since Mewtwo and Snake are the only ones that weren’t moveset clones or hardware limitations to get cut.

 

[DarthEnderX]

I'm sure you wish it did though.

I mean, if you want to get technical, I guess it already does. Since it takes a Nintendo Online subscription to play it online.

Yeah, I wouldn't worry too much about it being "square", I doubt that will factor into the real roster very much.

I need 3 more Echoes to even out my Smash 6 Roster...

Final Fantasy VII DLC Pack because Square wants that sweet post-release profit.

The SE Fighters Pass:
Cloud
Sephiroth
Hero
Sora
Bub/Bob
Geno

3.0

Pick For Me: Ryu Hayabusa
Pick For Mii: Mii Mage

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I mentioned this before but also how characters will stay in general since Mewtwo and Snake are the only ones that weren’t moveset clones or hardware limitations to get cut.

Lucario kind of similar to Mewtwo so I could see Mewtwo being lower priority because of that.
All the other cut Melee characters had replacements (Toon Link for Young Link, Plusle and Minun for Pichu, Ike for Roy.) or at least ones that were planned, Only exception is Doctor Mario. (No Wario doesn't count)
Maybe they actually planned on bringing Doctor Mario back but he missed out cause of time restraints, That would explain why he randomly came back in the next game.

I need 3 more Echoes to even out my Smash 6 Roster...

Metal Sonic for Sonic, Lilith for Morrigan, Toc-Man for Pac-Man.

The SE Fighters Pass:
Cloud
Sephiroth
Hero
Sora
Bomberman
Geno

Wait Bomberman's not Square Enix lol.

 

[Ivander]

The SE Fighters Pass:
Cloud
Sephiroth
Hero
Sora
Bomberman
Geno

Poor boy wasn't the same after the Squaresoft and Enix merger.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Metal Sonic for Sonic

I already have Shadow as Sonic's Echo.

Wait Bomberman's not Square Enix lol.

****. I meant Bub/Bob.

 

[DemifiendEnjoyer]

I already have Shadow as Sonic's Echo.

Just make Shadow his own character. He has so much stuff unique from Sonic.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Just make Shadow his own character.

Nah. Then I'd have to cut a unique Fighter.

 

[Lionfranky]

I’m in the extreme minority here but I feel like WarCraft’s legacy and influence in gaming history should be enough to at least be on the table for discussion for a DLC fighter despite its lack of Nintendo presence. I view it in much the same way as Halo. Both series revolutionized their respective genres and still receive support to this day. Both are also now owned by Microsoft. If anything, I’d put WarCraft slightly ahead of Halo in terms of historical significance. It’s been hugely influential in both RTS games and MMORPGs while also directly inspiring the creation of the MOBA genre (which, in turn, played some influence in the creation of Hero shooters). Halo had a similar impact on FPS games but the impact was limited mostly to just that genre. GoldenEye and Perfect Dark were also very successful console FPS games that paved the way for Halo and both were Nintendo exclusive.

In the end, it all hinges on Nintendo. Would Nintendo share your view? TBF, Hearthstone still has Japanese streamers. I'm not sure about WOW in Japan though. And Warcraft is one of the series that doesn't have the main character to clearly represent the series. I mean you can technically pull Arthas/Lich King since he has been imprinted on gamers' minds. Followed by characters like Illidan, Thrall, Jaina... but these characters are less recognition than Arthas/Lich King. Prove me if I am wrong.

As much as I loved Arthas and his story to the end of WOTLK.... I don't want him as a fighter. Because, I want different non-sword character. At least, Illidan's weapons are unique. I give him that.

 

[SharkLord]

This is clearly a big divide in the mentality of the community but I've grown to be so much more keen on taking creative liberties to convey essence rather than digging for explicit references at every opportunity. Had K. Rool, for example, followed the multitude of fan movesets I've seen laid out for him then he would have had a Ground Pound Down B or something. Because that's what he does in DK64, it made sense. However Smash takes K. Rool's essence and ampilifies it, utilizes his big golden gut as a counterattack. Allows opponents to apply pressure to break his tummy open. Has him crawl around on all fours like a rabid crocodile... these are all brand new ideas that elevate the character to new heights and FEEL right. Of course, K. Rool is not without the references you expect. But my point is that Smash's liberties are more often than not in service of the character.

Hell, believe it or not, Ridley never outright dragged anyone along the wall like that until Brawl. That became such a defining aspect of his character from that point forward that it was referenced in Other M and then brought into his moveset in Ultimate. Smash Ridley also uses his wings to fight, in a manner that he does not do in his games. We can nitpick about Ridley's lack of a tail pogo, one of his more obvious attacks. But most of his made up moves in Smash, which is the bulk of his moveset, take advantage of Ridley's strongest design elements and are in service of his ravenous, relentless personality.

For me it's really a matter of this. Look at any amount of fan movesets, and then look at Smash. I can count the amount of "accurate" or reference heavy fan movesets I've seen that I think are honest to god better than the movesets we have in Smash on one hand. It's Smash's responsibility to give you the feeling of controlling your favorite character, and equally their responsibility to make a fun and intuitive playstyle. In a roster of 80+ characters you might have some duds, but this philosophy has been followed to great effect for over 20 years.

For the most part I agree with this mindset, but I honestly don't really like Ridley's current moveset. He feels awkward and cramped, with weirdly restrained movements like his up tilt and up air, and some moves that just feel weird on him, like the up smash flip kick. I dunno, it just doesn't feel fitting for such an aggressive and brutal character.

That one gripe aside though, I definitely get what you're saying. Smash freestyling a bit is totally fine, as long as it's gels well with the rest of the moveset and feels like something the character would do. That being said, if a character has movements that fit Smash pretty well, I think it's also fine to bring them over to Smash too. For an example of what I'm thinking of, Sonic's Sonic Battle moves would be a pretty obscure reference overall, but they're dynamic and memorable, and would arguably fit Sonic better than his current moveset. Like, c'mon, this is prime forward air material

Kinda ironic I'm using Sonic as an example when our shorthand for references-over-cohesion is "Two Flickies..."

I guess what I'm getting at is that both pulling from references and making up original moves are both valid ways of making a moveset, as long as they flow well as a complete kit and capture the essence of the character, like you said.

 

[NintenRob]

I know I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes but Metal Sonic has always sounded like a weirder choice for Sonics echo than Shadow.


Like, does Metal Sonic have a spin dash? Like does he curl up into a ball? I'm sure he probably has at some point but it's hard to picture a metal robot doing that, especially when he likes to just fly and boost into things

 

[DarthEnderX]

Like, does Metal Sonic have a spin dash?

Depends on the model.

 

[SharkLord]

I know I'm not the most knowledgeable person when it comes but Metal Sonic has always sounded like a weirder choice for Sonics echo than Shadow.


Like, does Metal Sonic have a spin dash? Like does he curl up into a ball? I'm sure he probably has at some point but it's hard to picture a metal robot doing that, especially when he likes to just fly and boost into things

Metal can spin like Sonic, especially given his ability to copy attacks, but it's not readily associated with him. In many games he doesn't use the Spin Dash, and uses moves completely unique to him - Hell, in Sonic Adventure 2 Battle, he lost the Spin Dash favor of his unique Black Shield. He's like Dark Samus, where theoretically it makes sense to make him an Echo of his heroic counterpart, but he doesn't usually use most of Sonic's moves and there's so much more you could do with him.