"Smash Decay" a valid tatic for Brawl?

[saviorslegacy]

I have been doing some tests and some research. Now before I get started on this post I need to state what I am talking.

Who here knows what stale moves is? Well for those who don't it is the games anti spam system. Basically it lowers the last 9 moves power, hit stun (only when very stale), trajectory and most importantly knock back. It is the knock back and trajectory that I am getting at.
Look at what I have done with Sheik when using decayed Fair and f-tilt. (The Swan Combo) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gn5tuTxpwIY

Now my next question is. "Can this be used to make Brawl more combo friendly?" Now I am not a Wolf Main, but a decayed Bair would be pretty combo friendly IMO. Same with a decayed Fair with Marth.
Can we use this to advance SSBB?


~discuss

 

[Zankoku]

I don't think attack decay directly lowers hitstun. I'm pretty sure the hitstun formula is based entirely off of launch speed, so hitstun is decreased because attack decay is lowering the attack's power.

 

[bobson]

I think the primary problem with relying on this for combos is as soon as you've managed to land nine of the same move, your opponent is out of combo percentage.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I don't think attack decay directly lowers hitstun. I'm pretty sure the hitstun formula is based entirely off of launch speed, so hitstun is decreased because attack decay is lowering the attack's power.

Ahhhhh... well that makes sense. So I guess base knock back and power effects trajectory and hit stun.


LMAO Bobson! I don't think I explained it well enough.
Imagine Decay is like an Koolade ice cude tray that only hold 9 ice cubes. Depending on the order of the ice cubes and how many of the same type of ice cube will effect the number of the decay. If you are DUMB enough to try and land 9 of the same type of move right after each other then you should go back to basic's. The Sheik combo that I posted only had decay Fair of 2 and f-tilt of 2. All I need to do is get two Fairs in the right order in the past 9 moves and a small f-tilt lock. Then I can do my combo.
understand?

 

[LuLLo]

It looks pretty nice, but is it truly a combo i.e. inescapable?
Also, such things as decayed-move combo's would be highly situational, since:
- You first have to put your opponent in a situation where you can hit with specific moves.
- Then you have to hit with the moves.
- Then, when they are stale, you have to put your opponent in such a situation AGAIN.
- And perhaps then could a nice combo be done.

The idea is nice, but it would require that a player drops most of his other moves and must focus on hitting those moves, which could totally destroy your game (think about trying to hit with 1 or 2 moves all the time, you get the point).
There's also this factor: IF you pull it off, was it worth it or could you've done something better? And in most cases, I'd say yes, EPIC EDIT: you COULD have done something better.

 

[Zankoku]

There's also this factor: IF you pull it off, was it worth it or could you've done something better? And in most cases, I'd say yes.

Excuse me? I see no "yes or no" question in there.

 

[saviorslegacy]

Try and keep in mind that you should never attempt a combo that needs over decay of three. It is impractical. Look at it this way. "Can you get the same move in on them twice in your past 9 moves (the next time you hit it will be three)?" That is the concept. Spam one move (or two if you can) to where you have at least decay of two/three at all times. This allows you to combo into higher percents.
See what I am saying? You don't have to rely on just one/two moves.

BTW.. stop talking about the Swan. That is not the subject. Sheik= can use it in my opinion.
I want to discuss if everyone else has the same option.

Oh and answer you question. "It is a true combo if performed correctly." (Marth can break out at 72%.)

 

[East]

I don't see the applicability of this in brawl. You thinking has to assume that you are on the offensive, and your opponent is on the defensive. If you opponent is pressuring you and you have just the right amount of decay for an attack and they are at just the right percentage, you're not going to save throwing out an attack for the future potential of getting x or y combo on someone. You're going to use the move that gets them out of your face, because the opportunity cost of saving the move is not worth losing a stock for.

I also think it delves far too much into the micro aspects of the game, granted that I believe as a player gets better they start to look at brawl from a more micro prospective than a macro one, but perhaps this goes a little too far. Besides if you're using all that brain power to keep track of such things in a match, wouldn't it be more effective to simply learn the in-depth approximate physics of your attack coupled with an understanding of decay and use the extra space in your head for something else? I'm sure it works just as effectively.

 

[Zankoku]

saviorslegacy, it kinda breaks down since moves that are later in the decay list have less decay, so if you build a combo specifically based on certain decays then you can't just have those attacks decayed in any order and in any position on the list. Yes, attack decay allows possibility of combos, but it's kinda silly to put it all on paper rather than to just go out there and do the combo.

 

[B!squick]

There's also this factor: IF you pull it off, was it worth it or could you've done something better? And in most cases, I'd say yes.

This made my day. I nominate that for top tier quote, especially after reading the well thought out statement that proceeded it. x)

Also, ditto East and Ankoku. I play Bowser, so I don't have to worry about silly things like that (combos? lol), but even if a combo worked just as long as the moves were decayed period, you'd still have to keep track of what's stale and what's not which doesn't seem very feasible.

EDIT: Then again, I'm more of an FPS kinda guy, so prehaps I just lack the brain power to do something like this. The RTS player would probably have an easier time, I think.

 

[Paingel]

I guess it could work if your strategy is to spam moves 3 times in a row. This DOES work against weak players who don't know how to punish spamming, so it's not... bad...

But the key phrase there is "weak players", so...

Perhaps if you spammed 3 or so different moves instead of just one, you could keep your options open. The opponent won't know which one of the 3 moves you intend to use, so you can use a bit of a mind game with your spamming. That way when you land with one of your decayed moves you can open it into a combo, but doing so will reset the staleness of your moves so you'll have to do it all over again.

I also think that this tactic will be best used shortly after your opponent has lost a stock, come back with 0% damage, and the invincibility has worn off. This way he won't fly as far and your combo will actually matter more.

 

[Crizthakidd]

trying to decay moves to combo have been thought about for most players since they knew about it a year ago. you will only get a 2 hit combo out of it if ur playing someone good. at the lowest stale move, you can DI and double jump or power shield most of them

 

[teekay]

All of us who play Wolf a lot know that if you get his Bair to decay as much as possible you can definitely use a lot of them in succession (I'm not sure if true combos at any point, but you're likely to get a lot of hits.) The problem is it almost never gets that decayed in a match, and specifically trying to get it there would be impractical (we may use his bair more than any other move, but we don't use it THAT much!)

It's something that's worth knowing for the very rare situation where, for whatever reason, your moves get so stale you can use them this way, but I don't think it's something you should actively try to produce.

 

[LuLLo]

Excuse me? I see no "yes or no" question in there.

LoL, I'm Dutch and my Engrish is pretty good, but that just slipped in ..
Thanks for the correction, fixed.

 

[Scott!]

So, does attacking attackable stage objects affect stale moves? I forget, but I thought so. If so, would this kind of idea be better on stages like Yoshi's Island or Luigi's Mansion, where there are things you could attack in between stocks or even run away and hit if you're desperate and want to give your strategy away? I mean, that makes this even more situational, but it's a possibility, assuming stage objects affect the stale moves queue. I'd bet that this has been thought of before though.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I guess it could work if your strategy is to spam moves 3 times in a row. This DOES work against weak players who don't know how to punish spamming, so it's not... bad...

But the key phrase there is "weak players", so...

Perhaps if you spammed 3 or so different moves instead of just one, you could keep your options open. The opponent won't know which one of the 3 moves you intend to use, so you can use a bit of a mind game with your spamming. That way when you land with one of your decayed moves you can open it into a combo, but doing so will reset the staleness of your moves so you'll have to do it all over again.

I also think that this tactic will be best used shortly after your opponent has lost a stock, come back with 0% damage, and the invincibility has worn off. This way he won't fly as far and your combo will actually matter more.

lol... ever thought that you need to use a move three times out of nine and have them land? It's real simple. You don't need to spam a lot. Just use a move a 1/3 of the time.
ie If Marth uses Fair a lot more it will be in a state on sonstant decay so he can use Fair into FSmash at higher percents (maybe with proper decay it can be Fair into tipper FSmash for a KO).
So yeah... you'll just be using Fairs a lot to combo into other moves. Now doesn't that sound like it will work?

As for the 0 combo.
I have been experimenting with Marth some and this combo works well.
(unknown decay)
At 0% use Fair> Fair> (you are going to have to act quick since you are on the ground) Fair> Uair> tipper USmash
(does like 60 something, and it sets you up to juggle)

 

[BMunich16]

The only noticeable decay for me is when I'm using Ness and I spam his PK thunder, I notice less damage, but knockback isn't affected as much