Event - E3 Invitational 2014 Smash Ball in Competitive Smash

[JCDied4U]

ROFL
/thread

 

[Narpas_sword]

Final smashes shouldn't be an item and instead, you automatically get one when your opponent is on his last stock, and you have a 3 stock lead. and your opponent is >150%.

basically, its there to use because you trounced your opponent and you deserve an awesome 'FINAL' smash.

 

[Erimir]

Items are fine for competitive play. They can totally be fair to include. It's very possible in Mario Kart for a good player to get a higher and higher ranking, in spite of items sometimes randomly denying them wins.

Different item sets would change the tiers accordingly... Smash Ball being the most radical, of course, since, for example, Landmaster >>> Konga Beat. But it's not like the current tiers are balanced.

Anyway, all you gotta do is add enough matches to outweigh the randomness. So instead of best out of 3 or whatever, you gotta up it to best out of 7, or 9, etc.

But ain't nobody got time for dat. So it's not going to happen.

 

[LancerStaff]

Items are fine for competitive play. They can totally be fair to include. It's very possible in Mario Kart for a good player to get a higher and higher ranking, in spite of items sometimes randomly denying them wins.

Different item sets would change the tiers accordingly... Smash Ball being the most radical, of course, since, for example, Landmaster >>> Konga Beat. But it's not like the current tiers are balanced.

Anyway, all you gotta do is add enough matches to outweigh the randomness. So instead of best out of 3 or whatever, you gotta up it to best out of 7, or 9, etc.

But ain't nobody got time for dat. So it's not going to happen.

Actually, Mario Kart has it's own competitive ruleset without luck-based items. Time Trials. Everything else simply isn't taken seriously.

 

[BBG|Scott-Spain]

After seeing 1v1 matches, I am way more okay with items than before. However, Im sure Im still in the minority.

 

[SmashChu]

Fun fact: As soon as items were on off during the grand finals, we could actually see the skill and potential in the players again; before it was chaos and wild, anyone could of won. A pit player (top tier) got destroyed by items. Ken got destroyed by items.

Items are basically extra projectiles.

Using items and item knowledge is also a skill. Your assumption that players were showing more skill without items is a faulty one. If your gonna say your one of the best players in the world than you ought to be able to adapt and use the items, a key element in the series.

Ken lost when items were on because Ken sucks with items. Some examples
-Ken was on the other side of a field from a Smash Ball. When WFT got the final smash, he didn't possition himself way and stood right next to the blast zone
-When an urchin was placed, Ken spends his time attacking it instead of just countering it. Needless to day, he got nowhere.
-Gets a warpstar. Doesn't bother to actually aim it (Pit was actually within range to easily kill)
-Blows up a motion sensor bomb killing himself
-Throws away Steel Diver even though he got a kill with it and almost killed another play. "Nope, two shots is enough for me."
-When the last Smash ball comes out, Ken ignores the lighting and bomb that were closer to him. The lighting stuns players for a second and makes their attacks weaker, making it harder for the other players t get it, and a bomb is always useful. Of course, he chases the Smash Ball and doesn't get it.
-Moltres comes out. Decides his best option is to roll into Dillon.
-Managed to not get a single person with a hammer (in his defense, it was a bit shorter than Brawl)

 

[LancerStaff]

Using items and item knowledge is also a skill. Your assumption that players were showing more skill without items is a faulty one. If your gonna say your one of the best players in the world than you ought to be able to adapt and use the items, a key element in the series.

Ken lost when items were on because Ken sucks with items. Some examples
-Ken was on the other side of a field from a Smash Ball. When WFT got the final smash, he didn't possition himself way and stood right next to the blast zone
-When an urchin was placed, Ken spends his time attacking it instead of just countering it. Needless to day, he got nowhere.
-Gets a warpstar. Doesn't bother to actually aim it (Pit was actually within range to easily kill)
-Blows up a motion sensor bomb killing himself
-Throws away Steel Diver even though he got a kill with it and almost killed another play. "Nope, two shots is enough for me."
-When the last Smash ball comes out, Ken ignores the lighting and bomb that were closer to him. The lighting stuns players for a second and makes their attacks weaker, making it harder for the other players t get it, and a bomb is always useful. Of course, he chases the Smash Ball and doesn't get it.
-Moltres comes out. Decides his best option is to roll into Dillon.
-Managed to not get a single person with a hammer (in his defense, it was a bit shorter than Brawl)

Didn't Ken (infamously) lose an items tournament one time?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I haven't read any responses in this thread but I was one of the main people in the fray of the original back room when deciding on items vs no items for Brawl when it was first released. Yes there was a long and lengthy debate on whether to keep items banned for Brawl, including smash balls. In our research the one thing that damned balls and items alike is that they preferentially spawn towards the losing player. Sometimes smash balls would literally hover around the losing player the entire time. Between that and the tendency for items to spawn while you hit players (thus forcing an item grab or explosion if you hit an item spawning while you're in the middle of an attack) led us to ban items in Brawl. Given the second tendency, even without researching to see if item spawns favor the loser, I don't believe item legality needs to be explored in Smash 4 again.

In addition IIRC if smash balls were on in Brawl then if a player was losing significantly they'd spawn with their final smash and there was no way of turning that off.

 

[Knight Dude]

I'm not too sure how I feel about it. I'm not a competitive player, but I can see how it might seem a bit unfair to use them in a competitive setting. I would imagine it'd be legal if Final Smashes were meter-based though.

But they were ever allowed in a more casual tournament, I can see things being really interesting at that point.

 

[SmashChu]

Didn't Ken (infamously) lose an items tournament one time?

EVO 08. The competitive community had a cow. It was funny for the rest of us.

I haven't read any responses in this thread but I was one of the main people in the fray of the original back room when deciding on items vs no items for Brawl when it was first released. Yes there was a long and lengthy debate on whether to keep items banned for Brawl, including smash balls. In our research the one thing that damned balls and items alike is that they preferentially spawn towards the losing player. Sometimes smash balls would literally hover around the losing player the entire time. Between that and the tendency for items to spawn while you hit players (thus forcing an item grab or explosion if you hit an item spawning while you're in the middle of an attack) led us to ban items in Brawl. Given the second tendency, even without researching to see if item spawns favor the loser, I don't believe item legality needs to be explored in Smash 4 again.

In addition IIRC if smash balls were on in Brawl then if a player was losing significantly they'd spawn with their final smash and there was no way of turning that off.

You understand then that you know where most of the items will go. Basically, this discourages camping because it allows the losing player to get more items. This means if your on your opponent like white on rice, then that means you'll get the items. Also, pity smashes are based on score. Also, you need to be about 3 or 4 down in order for them to get a pity smash. Which means you've already won.

See, this is why you need to test things rather than theory craft. Based on tournaments we have done, on medium, each player will be able to get items without too much trouble. Items need to be tested, and we have a huge tournament that did some of the leg work for it. It's pretty sad when SRK does more testing for items for Smash Bros than Smashboards does.

 

[metaXzero]

It really just comes down to the general preference of the competitive community. Competitive item tourneys can be done as of Brawl for taking away those exploding capsules. But the facts are most people who go to tournaments want to pit their skill with their characters against each other and only that. The folks who want item tournies have always been free to have tournaments. But give up all hope of item tournies becoming standard and replacing no item tournies. The people do not want that.

 

[HeroMystic]

See, this is why you need to test things rather than theory craft. Based on tournaments we have done, on medium, each player will be able to get items without too much trouble. Items need to be tested, and we have a huge tournament that did some of the leg work for it. It's pretty sad when SRK does more testing for items for Smash Bros than Smashboards does.

To be fair, this was actually attempted, but unfortunately it didn't get a lot of traffic because Competitive players just dislike items.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Depends if they've nerfed Sonic's final smash, I wonder what tier lists would look like if final smashes were in. Sonic = super saiyan tier.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

You understand then that you know where most of the items will go. Basically, this discourages camping because it allows the losing player to get more items. This means if your on your opponent like white on rice, then that means you'll get the items. Also, pity smashes are based on score. Also, you need to be about 3 or 4 down in order for them to get a pity smash. Which means you've already won.

See, this is why you need to test things rather than theory craft. Based on tournaments we have done, on medium, each player will be able to get items without too much trouble. Items need to be tested, and we have a huge tournament that did some of the leg work for it. It's pretty sad when SRK does more testing for items for Smash Bros than Smashboards does.

Did I give you the impression that we didn't do testing? That wasn't my intention, because we did pretty extensive testing. Most testing was hampered by the fact that nobody actually wants to play with items. We ran item side tournaments at events for testing and it was universally disliked. But we dissected the footage and ran our own tests aside from popular opinion, and we determined on our own for items to not be suitable for competitive play.

When we made the initial rulesets for Brawl we took the job seriously. There were no kneejerk bans for anything. I don't think we need to be as careful for Smash 4, though. As it was stated previously, people simply don't like liberal rulesets and as evidenced by 3 titles now, all rulesets gradually become more limited until they are nearly all the same conservative rules.

 

[SmashChu]

Did I give you the impression that we didn't do testing? That wasn't my intention, because we did pretty extensive testing. Most testing was hampered by the fact that nobody actually wants to play with items. We ran item side tournaments at events for testing and it was universally disliked. But we dissected the footage and ran our own tests aside from popular opinion, and we determined on our own for items to not be suitable for competitive play.

When we made the initial rulesets for Brawl we took the job seriously. There were no kneejerk bans for anything. I don't think we need to be as careful for Smash 4, though. As it was stated previously, people simply don't like liberal rulesets and as evidenced by 3 titles now, all rulesets gradually become more limited until they are nearly all the same conservative rules.

I was here during that time, and there was no testing. EVO 08, the first big tournament, ran items because there was no evidence that they were broken. Smash players tried to say they were, and by that they meant that they were done in some guy's basement. The sentiment from the FGC was that nothing was broken until you knew it was. Conversations with Mr. Wizard showed that Smash players wanted to port the rules over and their "test" were anecdotal evidence and not based on real scenarios (which, after two item tournaments, has never really happened). The idea of the Smash community was to just port Melee's rules. Testing was never a discussion. When EVO did the work the community was suppose to do, they ridiculed it. That, and they bad mouthed the guy who won. This is why Smash wasn't in EVO until recently. The idea that Smashboards ever tried to consider items is laughable.

Items and everything else needs to be tested. This goes for all the stages. We can't port rules because this is a different game. The mentality you have is the exact same one 6 years ago and it's what got the community in trouble with larger tournaments and outside players. The idea is not what you like, but what should be in the game. Not liking items has been the reason for their ban. As a result, the King of Smash is incompetent with them that he blows himself up in the largest Smash stream yet. And it's not going to get any better if Nintendo keeps doing these.

I say this not for items, but for everything. This is competitive Smash's time to shine. Don't **** it up.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I was here during that time, and there was no testing. EVO 08, the first big tournament, ran items because there was no evidence that they were broken. Smash players tried to say they were, and by that they meant that they were done in some guy's basement. The sentiment from the FGC was that nothing was broken until you knew it was. Conversations with Mr. Wizard showed that Smash players wanted to port the rules over and their "test" were anecdotal evidence and not based on real scenarios (which, after two item tournaments, has never really happened). The idea of the Smash community was to just port Melee's rules. Testing was never a discussion. When EVO did the work the community was suppose to do, they ridiculed it. That, and they bad mouthed the guy who won. This is why Smash wasn't in EVO until recently. The idea that Smashboards ever tried to consider items is laughable.

Items and everything else needs to be tested. This goes for all the stages. We can't port rules because this is a different game. The mentality you have is the exact same one 6 years ago and it's what got the community in trouble with larger tournaments and outside players. The idea is not what you like, but what should be in the game. Not liking items has been the reason for their ban. As a result, the King of Smash is incompetent with them that he blows himself up in the largest Smash stream yet. And it's not going to get any better if Nintendo keeps doing these.

I say this not for items, but for everything. This is competitive Smash's time to shine. Don't **** it up.

Mr Wizard's methods were horrendous and those were AFTER we had already months of debate and experimental tournaments (in the Midwest) where we ruled items were not competitive. We didn't port over Melee's rules. Were you in the backroom back then? Because if you were you'd see entire essays written by people like Overswarm and myself regarding every little issue on the ruleset. Smash wasn't in EVO because Mr Wizard thought the same thing you did which was WRONG.

Admittedly all of my experience is post-Melee. I'm exclusively talking about the creation of Brawl's rules which I was intrincically part of and did everything in my power to test and include anything and everything. Do you know how long it took the Midwest to ban really ridiculous stages because of the vocal people involved in creating the rules for circuits?

I'd argue that this is no longer the time to argue about things the community will NEVER accept. We need to present ourselves with a cohesive front that new players and spectators will understand rather than a constnatly and largely evolving ruleset. Even Sakurai admits items are not competitive (see: For Glory mode). Why try to force something nobody wants? That was the biggest lesson I learned with the incredible amount of effort I and others put forward for these things.

Hell, we even did tournaments with 2 stocks instead of 3 and different counterpick or seleccting methods. Thats how striking became commonplace by the way. Its actually pretty upsetting that you don't believe we did anything at all because I for one put a LOT of work into the issue.

 

[Erimir]

I think customizable special moves should be included in the competitive scene, at least at the beginning. It introduces more strategy.

But items? No way. Items have the same issues they had in the previous installments. It's doubtful that there's anything different about Smash 4 that makes items less random. Skill is definitely involved in the use of items! It's just that they add too much randomness for single or best of 3 matches.

Actually, Mario Kart has it's own competitive ruleset without luck-based items. Time Trials. Everything else simply isn't taken seriously.

My point was that great players get high online rankings, which means that over time their skill is more important than the randomness of items.

The thing is that you have to play lots of races in order for that to be true.

I was not proposing a competitive rule set for Mario Kart, just pointing out that the randomness of items is overcome if you play enough races.

 

[LancerStaff]

I think customizable special moves should be included in the competitive scene, at least at the beginning. It introduces more strategy.

But items? No way. Items have the same issues they had in the previous installments. It's doubtful that there's anything different about Smash 4 that makes items less random. Skill is definitely involved in the use of items! It's just that they add too much randomness for single or best of 3 matches.
My point was that great players get high online rankings, which means that over time their skill is more important than the randomness of items.

The thing is that you have to play lots of races in order for that to be true.

I was not proposing a competitive rule set for Mario Kart, just pointing out that the randomness of items is overcome if you play enough races.

MK's VR system is very lopsided, actually. You get much more for wins then losses. A group of players could keep taking turns winning and still have a net gain of VR. VR is a better show of how long you've been racing then actual skill.

 

[Erimir]

MK's VR system is very lopsided, actually. You get much more for wins then losses. A group of players could keep taking turns winning and still have a net gain of VR. VR is a better show of how long you've been racing then actual skill.

MK Wii's ranking system is not as lopsided as MK7 and MK8... And at least when I've been playing on MK8 online, yes, rankings do get higher over time, but at this point at least, the players who have very high rankings got there faster because they're better (and you can tell that they're better).

Anecdotally, I know that when I play against friends items might get them some wins, but after enough matches, the overall record clearly shows who's better.

My point is just about randomness vs. skill. Randomness evens out over enough trials.

Do you actually disagree with my point or are you just nitpicking about Mario Kart for no reason?

 

[LancerStaff]

MK Wii's ranking system is not as lopsided as MK7 and MK8... And at least when I've been playing on MK8 online, yes, rankings do get higher over time, but at this point at least, the players who have very high rankings got there faster because they're better (and you can tell that they're better).

Anecdotally, I know that when I play against friends items might get them some wins, but after enough matches, the overall record clearly shows who's better.

My point is just about randomness vs. skill. Randomness evens out over enough trials.

Do you actually disagree with my point or are you just nitpicking about Mario Kart for no reason?

Both. An ideal competition should not have elements of luck of any kind, including who you're paired with to fight. Of course, I play plenty of MK online, but there's really nothing on the line.

 

[Butt Luckily]

On top of the standard reasons everyone is familiar with, I like items banned because it evens out the balance in the game. With items on, it makes the great characters better, and terrible characters worse.

My knowledge is a bit melee-centric, so unless they changed anything since then I don't think I would really agree with any items, FS or otherwise, to be included.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

It may be delusional to you, because you're competitive; they are casual, so respect their casual view points on this game.

I work hard and I am passionately determined in everything I do. However, not everyone boasts such a kindled fire in these days, so I wouldn't push people too hard when they aren't doing it for themselves. Some people are too relaxed and don't understand this world from behind the fire point of view. Not everyone cared to swim beyond the flames, so to speak. So let's respect that. We, not them, should know better, since being competitive is the transcendence of skill and potential. We are all born casual; but only so many of us choose to stand and make something out of ourselves.

I do respect each of my fellow smashers, but you guys are trying to push something that just won't happen. I tried smash balls during brawl online play, for the lulz, cause brawl barely has any combos so i messed around. They are broken, and use no skill whatsoever, once someone gets it the match is over most likely. Using Smash balls in a PM tournament would just make things unfair, tournament rules ban items and stages for a reason, to make things fair, not to make things less fun. Casual people don't get it and its fine, but when you step into tournament ground expect our rules to be enforced. It's just not gonna happen, it may be "fun" but 0 to KO combos are more fun to me.

And Lol @ people thinking items can be used for competitive play, we tried that with west coast melee back in the day, it just isn't suitable, sorry.

Idk why you got banned, but alright just responding to your reply.

 

[Phaazoid]

Yikes, the amount of item hate in this thread is crazy

while yes, I agree, Final smashes specifically are too unbalanced to work in competitive play, (as well as a lot of items, pokeballs, ect) there are definitely a handful of items that are totally balanced and could work. Ya'll needa check your biases.

Items weren't banned in melee because items are unfair. They were only banned because if any items were turned on, explosives containers would still sometimes spawn, which could land and explode, which could kill. That was unfair, so all items had to go.

In brawl, you were given the option to turn this off. But with the sheer amount of anti-item bias around, and the lack of adaptation of competitive brawl, items never made a come back.

But not only are there a ton of interesting items in the game, but characters who's gameplay interacts with items. Pikmin carry them now. Villager can pocket them for later use. Rosalina can warp their gravity.

There are plenty of items that can add depth to the gameplay. Beam sword, jet pack, fire bar, bunny hood, bumper, fire flower, drill arm, lip stick, metal box, pitfall, ray gun, spring, green shell, just to name a few. None of these items have randomness innately associated with them. none of them are homing, insta KO, or break characters.

They're built into the game, and if you can't handle them, you will forever lose to the likes of characters like peach who use items anyways.

 

[Erimir]

Both. An ideal competition should not have elements of luck of any kind, including who you're paired with to fight. Of course, I play plenty of MK online, but there's really nothing on the line.

I never said it was ideal competition. And I explicitly just said I wasn't proposing a rule set.

I was just saying that randomness does not prevent determining who is more skilled. It just makes it take longer depending on how swingy the randomness is. And nothing you've said is actually an argument against that.

And as far as "no elements of luck of any kind"... Yeah, no. There are tons of great, amazing, competitive games that have elements of luck. Plenty of them are far more popular than competitive Smash will ever be. Magic: the Gathering and poker are two great examples of that. A poor player can get lucky in both of those games.

But nobody would claim that the elements of randomness in those games prevent skill from shining through.

I get unlucky in Magic with some frequency. You can draw no-land hands in decks that were constructed well and have to mulligan multiple times. You can be sitting in an almost-winning position and not draw any of the 8 cards that would win you the game immediately... and then lose. And it's definitely frustrating when that happens.

But when I play drafts and sealed at the local store, I have won the last three or four tournaments I've participated in. Hell, the last one I did I went undefeated in five matches, 10-0. Luck doesn't prevent my skill from making a difference.

Maybe those games aren't ideal competition to you, but their level of popularity shows plenty of people disagree with you.

Now, before you complain... Items in Smash work differently from luck in those games. I'm not arguing for items in Smash being a thing. Just arguing against your claims about how random elements work in competitive games.

The way random items work in Smash makes them impractical for tournaments. They do not, however, make a fair competition impossible.

 

[menotyou135]

People are saying no for the wrong reasons. Yes smash ball is an item, but that is not WHY it is bad.

It is bad for several reasons:
1) It randomly spawns meaning that it can affect the game in a way that doesn't take skill
2) It moves randomly, meaning someone can get lucky and it comes close to them
3) Final smashes are incredibly OP. One smash ball randomly flying close to someone could decide the match
4) Final smashes are not hard to do. They are No risk, high reward
5) Some final smashes are much better than others, meaning some characters might not be used just because it has a crappy FS
6) Some characters have a huge advantage in getting smash balls. Mainly Arial characters.
7) There are very few ways to actually play against them against someone of similar skill. This leads to checkmate scenarios.

Just imagine the finals of a tournament being decided by the worse player getting a smash ball that randomly spawned close to him and winning. That is why smash balls should not be in the game. It is more than just the fact that it is an item. Being an item makes it bad, but even if it weren't an item it would be bad. They are no risk, high reward, and easy to do. That isn't the worst part either. The worst part is that you can get them through luck. If there is a match that is down 1 stock to 1 stock and a smash ball spawns, it is essentially a coin flip who wins (assuming that both players are about even in skill and the person who gets it doesn't choke).

 

[Aninymouse]

Personally there is no way I could fathom having any items on in tournament play. This is not like Quake or UT where players have scientifically broken down efficient methods of acquiring items during competitive play, because the timing is always consistent and predictable.

That said, who's to say we don't try it as a side event in the future? At UFG10 we* had a BLAST with the Smash Bros auction tournament, where we had random stages on. People got absolutely WRECKED by stage hazards. it was hilarious and it was awesome, and even though we had what... $200? in the pot, we still had a good time. A little salt, sure, but it had a huge crowd busting lungs with laughter. This is because it was a side diversion with limited participation. What's a small gamble in a community where money matches are going down at any given moment, hm?

Item tournaments, Smash Balls included, could be an awesome side diversion if we have the resources (setups, staff, etc.) and interest to make it happen. Smash 4 will have more item mechanics than ever; Olimar's Pikmin will grab and retrieve items they are thrown to, and Villager's Pocket ability of course opens up a whole realm of gameplay we'll scarcely see otherwisse.

The focus of every tournament should of course be the standard, item-free, non-ludicrous-stage, setup. A small tournament on the side, as long as it's not holding the bracket up, could be there for those who want to gamble. Granted, Smash tournaments already run late between just Melee and PM, so TOs would have to find ways to make it work somehow.

*Everyone except K9http://youtu.be/hZ5YfR9gU1I?t=4m35s

First of all, I agree so much with this post. Secondly, funny and exciting videos (that are also very illustrative). Lastly, congrats on being a moderator?! Am I just slow in the head or is that new? Sweeeeeet.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

Yikes, the amount of item hate in this thread is crazy

while yes, I agree, Final smashes specifically are too unbalanced to work in competitive play, (as well as a lot of items, pokeballs, ect) there are definitely a handful of items that are totally balanced and could work. Ya'll needa check your biases.

Items weren't banned in melee because items are unfair. They were only banned because if any items were turned on, explosives containers would still sometimes spawn, which could land and explode, which could kill. That was unfair, so all items had to go.

In brawl, you were given the option to turn this off. But with the sheer amount of anti-item bias around, and the lack of adaptation of competitive brawl, items never made a come back.

But not only are there a ton of interesting items in the game, but characters who's gameplay interacts with items. Pikmin carry them now. Villager can pocket them for later use. Rosalina can warp their gravity.

There are plenty of items that can add depth to the gameplay. Beam sword, jet pack, fire bar, bunny hood, bumper, fire flower, drill arm, lip stick, metal box, pitfall, ray gun, spring, green shell, just to name a few. None of these items have randomness innately associated with them. none of them are homing, insta KO, or break characters.

They're built into the game, and if you can't handle them, you will forever lose to the likes of characters like peach who use items anyways.

All items are inherently random. They have to spawn onto the stage - meaning that they are most likely going to spawn closer to one character.

And that last part about Peach is a lie - according to you, Peach should wreck everyone at tournaments. Which doesn't happen.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

There are plenty of items that can add depth to the gameplay. Beam sword, jet pack, fire bar, bunny hood, bumper, fire flower, drill arm, lip stick, metal box, pitfall, ray gun, spring, green shell, just to name a few. None of these items have randomness innately associated with them. none of them are homing, insta KO, or break characters.

I dunno about depth
Beam Sword:
User: Welp, Beam Sword attacks are relatively unsafe. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just stay out of Beam Sword range until he throws it.

Jet Pack:
User: I guess I can extend combos with this maybe. Probably not.
Opponent: I just won't approach until it runs out.

Fire Bar:
User: This is like Beam Sword but not good. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just wait for him to throw it.

Bunny Hood:
User: Welp, my aerial approaches are completely useless now. I guess I'll just run away till it runs out.
Opponent: Welp, I can't really chase him. I guess I'll just wait till it runs out.

Bumper:
User: Lemme throw this in the middle of the stage. Now I can just wait for my opponent to jump over it, and I'll punish.
Opponent: Welp, if I approach with an aerial, I'll get punished. I guess I'll just wait till it runs out.

Fire Flower:
User: This thing sucks. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'm gonna approach him, cause that thing sucks.

Metal Box:
User: Now I have armor on all my attacks. Ima go after him.
Opponent: Unless I can get a grab for a guaranteed kill offstage, I'll just run till it runs out.

Pitfall:
User: I guess I'll throw it somewhere and see what happens.
Opponent: I'm just not gonna go over there.

Ray Gun:
User: If I hit him with this, I can carry him offstage for a guaranteed kill. If not, oh well. I'll just spam.
Opponent: I'll just easily avoid crap until he runs out of bullets.

Spring:
User: It'd be extremely difficult to form any sort of conversion with this. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just wait till he throws it.

Green Shell:
User: *throw*
Opponent: *jumps over*


Items can actually limit a user's options tremendously, and most of the time they just slow down gameplay in try-hard scenarios. The invitational looked hype because those players weren't playing to win (IE: KDJ intentionally running into Megaman's Final Smash to hype the crowd). It just doesn't work. The same goes for Final Smashes. Once someone gets it, the other person just runs. Items are okay as a side-event, but not the main thing.

 

[Phaazoid]

All items are inherently random. They have to spawn onto the stage - meaning that they are most likely going to spawn closer to one character.

And that last part about Peach is a lie - according to you, Peach should wreck everyone at tournaments. Which doesn't happen.

But what does happen is that people who play project M coming from a background in melee have a harder time fighting characters like peach and diddy than people who came from a background in brawl due to changes in how items are handled, and advanced techniques surrounding them.

The point is, these games are becoming more item oriented both in terms of techniques possible with items and character moves/abilities. To turn them off would be to ignore a large part of the game, and may indirectly nerf some characters who were built with items in mind.

Since an item can spawn anywhere on a stage, it has an equal chance of spawning near either player. If items are on low, which imo they should be, lets say for the sake of arguing that ~10 items will fall every 5 minutes. You should be able to predict within a rough window when each item is going to spawn.

A) that item isn't guaranteed to be a huge boost to your character. In fact, items that are that game changing should be the ones that are banned. (ie, smashballs, pokeballs, ect)

B) You and your opponent have an equal chance of the item spawning near you. It may be a little random, but it isn't game changing. If you have technical skill, you should still be able to play around it.

C) No johns. Lost a game because someone threw a beamsword at you? Don't blame items being on. Get better.

 

[κomıc]

"I want items in tournaments. I want stage hazards in tournaments. Then I might actually watch boring competitive play."

Real quotes, real people. What these people don't know is what it's like to play the game for money.

Then maybe we should reevaluate tournaments. No one wins actual money. The money goes to charities. 1st place can get a Gamestop Rewards or something.

By the way, anyone remember when Brawl came out people got together to figure out how to incorporate items in competition by turning off certain items off and allowing others in? I think it'd be great to see that again and maybe incorporate that in tournaments as something separate to the NoItems set.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Then maybe we should reevaluate tournaments. No one wins actual money. The money goes to charities. 1st place can get a Gamestop Rewards or something.

By the way, anyone remember when Brawl came out people got together to figure out how to incorporate items in competition by turning off certain items off and allowing others in? I think it'd be great to see that again and maybe incorporate that in tournaments as something separate to the NoItems set.

Pretty sure all Melee tornaments are for money and have been, even if just a small pot of entry fees. MLG Melee is $15,000... And Gamestop? Dedicated TO's host their tournaments any way they can! Has always been about the community with no help from others until after EVO (2014) where the mainstream FGC and Nintendo started noticing us.

Hell, M2K LIVES off wining smash tournaments, he has no other job. (Don't quote me 100% on this, but do follow streams and interviews) People are serious about their smash, it's not just a "hobby", winning is a big deal.

Call me a tourneyfag or whatever, but the context here is competitive play, where this is a reality.

---
On the second thing, I think last year I still saw that thread here about having only SOME items and it seemed reasonable for side events (Though for Brawl I don't think a good ruleset has been found yet, remember BO5 1 stock?). Smash Ball was not among those items.

 

[κomıc]

Hell, M2K LIVES off wining smash tournaments, he has no other job. People are serious about their smash, it's not just a "hobby", winning is a big deal.

Oh dear. That is a huge problem.

You know, I wish people luck when the world goes to **** and their only skills or attributes are being good at a video game.

 

[Phaazoid]

I dunno about depth
Beam Sword:
User: Welp, Beam Sword attacks are relatively unsafe. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just stay out of Beam Sword range until he throws it.

Jet Pack:
User: I guess I can extend combos with this maybe. Probably not.
Opponent: I just won't approach until it runs out.

Fire Bar:
User: This is like Beam Sword but not good. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just wait for him to throw it.

Bunny Hood:
User: Welp, my aerial approaches are completely useless now. I guess I'll just run away till it runs out.
Opponent: Welp, I can't really chase him. I guess I'll just wait till it runs out.

Bumper:
User: Lemme throw this in the middle of the stage. Now I can just wait for my opponent to jump over it, and I'll punish.
Opponent: Welp, if I approach with an aerial, I'll get punished. I guess I'll just wait till it runs out.

Fire Flower:
User: This thing sucks. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'm gonna approach him, cause that thing sucks.

Metal Box:
User: Now I have armor on all my attacks. Ima go after him.
Opponent: Unless I can get a grab for a guaranteed kill offstage, I'll just run till it runs out.

Pitfall:
User: I guess I'll throw it somewhere and see what happens.
Opponent: I'm just not gonna go over there.

Ray Gun:
User: If I hit him with this, I can carry him offstage for a guaranteed kill. If not, oh well. I'll just spam.
Opponent: I'll just easily avoid crap until he runs out of bullets.

Spring:
User: It'd be extremely difficult to form any sort of conversion with this. I'll just throw it.
Opponent: I'll just wait till he throws it.

Green Shell:
User: *throw*
Opponent: *jumps over*


Items can actually limit a user's options tremendously, and most of the time they just slow down gameplay in try-hard scenarios. The invitational looked hype because those players weren't playing to win (IE: KDJ intentionally running into Megaman's Final Smash to hype the crowd). It just doesn't work. The same goes for Final Smashes. Once someone gets it, the other person just runs. Items are okay as a side-event, but not the main thing.

I'm not sure what happened to your imagination, but it's incredibly lacking.

Items can limit a user's options, sure. That just adds to their dynamic. Not every item is for every character.

However, some items can drastically help some characters. Little mac grabbing a jetpack suddenly has a whole lot more room to recover. Villager with a beamsword suddenly has horizontal range. Greenshells/guns give projectiles to characters lacking in ranged combat. Metal box gives you a unique window where you can hit a bit harder, and take less hitstun. It makes characters like bowser terrifying. Bumper and spring modify the stage, changing the environment, giving you another thing to watch out for, or another option with which ot make plays.

Final smashes are bad because of their imbalance. Some characters have incredibly good final smashes (read, sonic) while other character's final smashes are a lot more lackluster, and easily avoidable. Smashballs also spawn with different amount of hits to break, and honestly, decentralize the combat of the game.

I'm not saying items should be on to the extent of the invitational. I understand how hype works and I've followed the competitive community for a long time now. Items add depth to the game, and the communities current hateful view is a cancer. It shows a lack of thinking for yourself, the inability to recognize/perceive personal or group bias, and a fear of change. This isn't melee. The pacing is different. You don't understand the gameplay yet. Innocent until proven guilty.

 

[ryuu seika]

OP, were you even watching the invitational? It clearly, clearly demonstrated just how much easier it is for certain characters to grab than others. To reward those characters with the sheer KO potential of a Final Smash would be seriously unbalancing.

I am not going to get into the items debate but smash balls should be out for sure.

You know, I wish people luck when the world goes to **** and their only skills or attributes are being good at a video game.

Smash may not be the most useful of skills in the real world but it has been demonstrated that the playing of shooting games does significantly increase one's ability to use a gun in life or death situations and to do so with less hesitation. Gaming is not a wholly useless hobby in terms of post apocalypse survival.

 

[Aninymouse]

I haven't read any responses in this thread but I was one of the main people in the fray of the original back room when deciding on items vs no items for Brawl when it was first released. Yes there was a long and lengthy debate on whether to keep items banned for Brawl, including smash balls. In our research the one thing that damned balls and items alike is that they preferentially spawn towards the losing player. Sometimes smash balls would literally hover around the losing player the entire time. Between that and the tendency for items to spawn while you hit players (thus forcing an item grab or explosion if you hit an item spawning while you're in the middle of an attack) led us to ban items in Brawl. Given the second tendency, even without researching to see if item spawns favor the loser, I don't believe item legality needs to be explored in Smash 4 again.

In addition IIRC if smash balls were on in Brawl then if a player was losing significantly they'd spawn with their final smash and there was no way of turning that off.

Long time no see, Samurai Panda. I remember the old podcasts you took part in. Good times.

I agree with what you've said. Despite all the numerous reasons to ban Smash Balls, the Pity Smash was just insult to injury, seriously.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

I'm not sure what happened to your imagination, but it's incredibly lacking.

Sure, there is room for depth...but your opponent might not allow you to exercise that depth.

Little mac grabbing a jetpack suddenly has a whole lot more room to recover.

This is true. From the looks of it though, it seems like you can easily punish someone returning to the stage with it. Then you would have had the same outcome you'd have with no items: a dead Little Mac. Then comes the on-stage threat. If you have the percentage lead, you use it to stall time, or just ignore it completely, because it seems to have no other uses. If you don't have the lead and you have the jetpack, what can you do? A few more Up airs in your highly situational punish? I guess that's not completely worthless, but what's the point?

Villager with a beamsword suddenly has horizontal range. Greenshells/guns give projectiles to characters lacking in ranged combat.

Sure. You have more range now. Is your opponent gonna allow you to make use of that range? Probably not. Unless your opponent sucks, you'll rarely hit them with the actual item, and you're better off just throwing it. Otherwise, they'll just run until you do something they can capitalize on. It's that simple.

Metal box gives you a unique window where you can hit a bit harder, and take less hitstun. It makes characters like bowser terrifying.

Once again, what will your opponent do in this situation? Is he gonna try to hit you and get punished for playing offensively? No. He's gonna run until it runs out. Or grab you and throw you off the ledge where you'll plummet helplessly and die.

Bumper and spring modify the stage, changing the environment, giving you another thing to watch out for, or another option with which ot make plays.

Remember Pokemon Stadium in Melee? There were often extended periods of time with players just standing there. Standing there waiting for the stage to change back to it's neutral setting. They didn't wait for no reason. They knew that if they tried to traverse the obstacles in the stage that they'd be punished for it. The Bumper is basically one of those obstacles. Why bother maneuvering around it if I'm gonna get hit anyway? Same goes for the Spring, albeit to a much lesser degree.

This isn't melee. The pacing is different. You don't understand the gameplay yet. Innocent until proven guilty.

In a lot of these situations in Melee, the optimal solution is to just run, wait the items out, and stall time. Melee is already looking to be much faster and offense-based than Smash 4. If the optimal strategy in the faster game is to wait, then why would I do any different in a slower paced game, with less movement and approach options to boot?

With money, or tournament points, or gift cards, or ANYTHING of value on the line, people won't hesitate to utilize the most optimal strategy. And when facing someone with items...I'm just gonna run, bro. Personally, that's not the type of play I'd like to see.

 

[Phaazoid]

@ Alfonzo Bagpipez
You raise some good points, mainly that players will just try to avoid these things in competitive play regardless, leading to stale/boring gameplay.

My main points back would be
If items were on low, they'd be spawning once every ~30 sec. They'd be so central to the match that if you tried to run every time an item spawned sub-optimally, you could possible just be running the whole match. And sure, that could happen, it could revert to melee-esque tactics. Or new gameplay could evolve around the items, taking advantage of the fact that say, villager with a beamsword can't grab, he has to throw the thing first, so he doesn't have access to his net.

Most of your points stem from psychology drawn from melee. And while this isn't inherently wrong, the main point I'm trying to make is that items should be given a chance in competitive play.

We don't know how much/if Sm4sh is going to be slower than melee. We've only seen a demo. L cancelling was in Brawl's demo, after all. We shouldn't be so quick to just cut such a huge potential factor of the game from previous bias alone.

 

[Alfonzo Bagpipez]

Most of your points stem from psychology drawn from melee. And while this isn't inherently wrong, the main point I'm trying to make is that items should be given a chance in competitive play.

We don't know how much/if Sm4sh is going to be slower than melee. We've only seen a demo. L cancelling was in Brawl's demo, after all. We shouldn't be so quick to just cut such a huge potential factor of the game from previous bias alone.

That's fine. Exploring all of our options in a new game is never a bad idea. If there's a funner way to play the game on a competitive level, then why not? Items just don't seem all that likely to make it past being a side event, which isn't bad.

 

[Phaazoid]

That's fine. Exploring all of our options in a new game is never a bad idea. If there's a funner way to play the game on a competitive level, then why not? Items just don't seem all that likely to make it past being a side event, which isn't bad.

Well, even if we don't see eye to eye on how items may or may not impact competitive play, I respect you for being a free thinker and arguing with logic rather than bias. It should be interesting to see how the scene develops.

 

[PizzaWenisaur]

But what does happen is that people who play project M coming from a background in melee have a harder time fighting characters like peach and diddy than people who came from a background in brawl due to changes in how items are handled, and advanced techniques surrounding them.

The point is, these games are becoming more item oriented both in terms of techniques possible with items and character moves/abilities. To turn them off would be to ignore a large part of the game, and may indirectly nerf some characters who were built with items in mind.

Since an item can spawn anywhere on a stage, it has an equal chance of spawning near either player. If items are on low, which imo they should be, lets say for the sake of arguing that ~10 items will fall every 5 minutes. You should be able to predict within a rough window when each item is going to spawn.

A) that item isn't guaranteed to be a huge boost to your character. In fact, items that are that game changing should be the ones that are banned. (ie, smashballs, pokeballs, ect)

B) You and your opponent have an equal chance of the item spawning near you. It may be a little random, but it isn't game changing. If you have technical skill, you should still be able to play around it.

C) No johns. Lost a game because someone threw a beamsword at you? Don't blame items being on. Get better.

What? So you say " to turn [ items ] off would be to ignore a large part of the game " then follow that up with " [ items ] aren't game changing ." I think you're confused.

Secondly - it would make more sense for those people to just train vs. Diddy or Peach rather then making a tournament scene that probably wouldn't be as effective.

How do you have no johns with items? Like when the game can literally give anyone a boost at anytime ( you don't need a huge boost to win from it ) you expect people to have no johns.

The problem with items is that it doesn't ensure the best player wins. Someone who is clearly the better player at the game can be eliminated because fate wasn't on his side. Which to me is dumb. Like the whole point of a tournament is that you have a bunch of people fighting and whoever is the best ultimately stands on top.

EDIT: Why do you keep on calling people bias, it's annoying. I'm sure most people have played with items on. While I enjoy items on sometimes - they are too unpredictable and match-determining for me to think it's a good idea for high stake matches.