Event - E3 Invitational 2014 Smash Ball in Competitive Smash

[Sawi]

First off I'm a super noob to smash, have never played a competitive match in my life, but understand esports and what it takes to be good at smash, so this view is coming from someone who doesn't play the game but watches it.

With the Smash international being the first event with a huge audience the most hyped moments were when somebody got a smash ball.

I know and understand why items are disabled in competitive smash, but I think it would be a much more fun game to watch with a smash ball, it would obviously have spawn in a way that is fair for both players to get instead of flying across the map in random patterns, but would be something for the announcer to yell out and the crowd to go crazy for , especially in match changing events.

Also I usually only watch melee since brawl (even project m) usually who can stall the longest which is some of the weakest stuff to watch ever.

also also, has this ever been tried in the competitive scene? If so what were the results.

 

[Golden Gallade]

 

[WaltzForVenus]

smash ball's are items.

 

[War Anvil]

Nah, competitive Smash is fine without Smash Balls. Also, really? Project M is about stalling? C'mon, it's Melee-esque. There are bound to be some fast matches in every P:M tourney worth its salt (No pun intended).

 

[Phyr]

Smash ball is possibly the most unbalanced item mechanic in all the game. I don't even know how does Sakurai balance these, oh my god.

 

[Banjodorf]

After Zero's first match in the invitational, 4 player match or not, it should be obvious why those are unbalanced.

 

[Hokori]

As mentioned before, the Smash Ball is an item, so that's a negative there.

And some characters FS are instant KOs for the most part while others are rather pathetic. Granted, dodging these FSs are possible, I'd rather not see people only choosing characters based upon their FS. We'd have Sonic only tournaments

EDIT - Not Sonic only really, but you know, some characters can take like two stocks with a single use.

 

[Banjodorf]

As another note: Power Star vs. Super Sonic is just ridiculous. But should Rosalina be able to use hers, while Sonic's is banned?

Adding in Smash balls just makes the whole thing alot more unnecessarily complicated.

 

[Hidden Pixl]

Smash balls would make competitive no longer competitive. It would make it turn into a stall fest for the smash ball and who is better at getting the smash ball and performing the final smash. In the end, adding the smash ball to competitive would be a stupid move by anybody.

 

[Banjodorf]

Isn't part of the reason items are (generally) banned in the first place because it then becomes a fight for the items rather than against eachother?

It's always going to be the case, too. Such is the nature of items.

 

[nessokman]

As mentioned before, the Smash Ball is an item, so that's a negative there.

And some characters FS are instant KOs for the most part while others are rather pathetic. Granted, dodging these FSs are possible, I'd rather not see people only choosing characters based upon their FS. We'd have Sonic only tournaments

EDIT - Not Sonic only really, but you know, some characters can take like two stocks with a single use.

Wow, everyone would be using the overpowers character. Where have I heard
That before?

No items
Fox only
Final destination

 

[Hokori]

Wow, everyone would be using the overpowers character. Where have I heard
That before?

No items
Fox only
Final destination

*shrugs*
People gravitate toward the bessss.

 

[hotdogturtle]

I think a lot of people in here don't actually understand why items are banned in the first place.

 

[ImaClubYou]

If characters got supers they build up in game and are all identical in result but different in animation, I would be down with it.

However, as it stands, FS is banned.

It can spawn closer to a person.
Some FS are trash while others are great.
Some characters are just better at chasing the Smash Ball.
People will resort to the projectile spam game until the Smash Ball appears.

 

[ChikoLad]

I'd love Smash Balls in tournaments, and I agree that there was something really hype about them showing up in the Invitational, but the FS's simply aren't balanced enough for it to work.

 

[Renji64]

It really wasn't hype but i think that item friendly tourney ruleset could be it's own side thing.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Smash ball is such an insane, unbalancing, polarizing item that even when I play FFA casuals with friends with items enabled SMASH BALL STAYS DISABLED.

Last item I would unban.

 

[TeenGirlSquad]

I wish.

Then I might actually watch competitive play.

 

[LancerStaff]

I don't see a way they could even get into competitive play.

 

[ChillySundance]

The biggest problem with smash balls is the sheer amount of randomness associated with them.

1) First, they spawn randomly and move about the stage randomly. They aren't rewarding anyone for skill or technique. The game has now just decided to roll the dice for some player to gain an advantage.

2) They have ???? HP upon spawning, meaning that nobody has any idea how many hits it will take to bust it open. So even if it does come down to skill when chasing the smash ball, a skilled player could hit a smash ball 5 times and then the other player could smack it once and get lucky. Again, not really rewarding anyone for making plays.

3) A lot of final smashes are non-interactive. Simply face the opponent, press B, then enjoy benefits with little counterplay. Of course this isn't true for all final smashes, but a lot of them do follow a 'spray and pray' mentality. That's not really constructive to competitive play. At least a majority of items tend to require more input from the user and defender.

so yeah, that's a lot of randomness to have to deal with whenever a smash ball spawns, and even worse, they offer such a huge advantage that all players need to stop and pay attention to hitting the smash ball if they want to win, which detracts from the match's flow as a whole.

I have nothing against final smashes as a concept. They're very cool as an idea, but I really dislike smash balls.

 

[Ginger Hail]

If the Smash Ball were to be allowed, matches would basically just become tracking down the Smash Ball instead of actually fighting. Most Final Smashes will guarantee a kill, especially if there's only one opponent to tackle.

 

[Unbias]

Then Sonic will be OP, his footspeed is greater than it was in brawl he'll just leave the competition and get the FS. If someone else gets it depending on the stage he can potentially run away or just use his spring.

 

[SmashChu]

After Zero's first match in the invitational, 4 player match or not, it should be obvious why those are unbalanced.

Yeah, the players let him have it 4 freaking times. I know they can be powerful, but that match was the player's fault, not the game.

As mentioned before, the Smash Ball is an item, so that's a negative there.

And some characters FS are instant KOs for the most part while others are rather pathetic. Granted, dodging these FSs are possible, I'd rather not see people only choosing characters based upon their FS. We'd have Sonic only tournaments

EDIT - Not Sonic only really, but you know, some characters can take like two stocks with a single use.

See, here is problem with the community. You can't come in with a predisposition. You need to take in everything. The arguments against items tend to always be poor and lack any real knowledge of how to play with them. It's a case of "We've always done it, so let's not do it." People also forget that the reason they were off was because you couldn't turn off containers and they could blow up. Of course, in Brawl, they changed that. But the community didn't.

I think the invitational showed they can work if done right.

 

[Hokori]

Yeah, the players let him have it 4 freaking times. I know they can be powerful, but that match was the player's fault, not the game.

See, here is problem with the community. You can't come in with a predisposition. You need to take in everything. The arguments against items tend to always be poor and lack any real knowledge of how to play with them. It's a case of "We've always done it, so let's not do it." People also forget that the reason they were off was because you couldn't turn off containers and they could blow up. Of course, in Brawl, they changed that. But the community didn't.

I think the invitational showed they can work if done right.

I'm all for tourneys with items on, don't get me wrong. I just felt as though some people want this to be the new standard, and that, I'm not okay with. I'm for coexistence. Tourneys with items, and tourneys without. That, I believe would be fun, exciting, and would really represent the essence of Smash Bros.

EDIT - When I said "I just felt as though some people want this to be the new standard", I'm not really referencing this thread, but discussions I've had with people in the past - As in the focus of competitive play should include items, not 1v1 no items. And like I explained before, I'd like to see both forms of play. Like you mentioned, the invitational demonstrated how it could potentially work, definitely agree with you there. An even better example would be the 1v1 item matches Clash Tournaments uploaded, not sure if you've checked those out yet. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Banjodorf]

The fact is that item matches are more about the items than the PCs. Item tournaments are fine, but it should not and will not ever become the standard.

And frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. This is a game that anyone can play the way they want, and having both kinds of tournaments available is conducive to that.

 

[Hong]

Personally there is no way I could fathom having any items on in tournament play. This is not like Quake or UT where players have scientifically broken down efficient methods of acquiring items during competitive play, because the timing is always consistent and predictable.

That said, who's to say we don't try it as a side event in the future? At UFG10 we* had a BLAST with the Smash Bros auction tournament, where we had random stages on. People got absolutely WRECKED by stage hazards. it was hilarious and it was awesome, and even though we had what... $200? in the pot, we still had a good time. A little salt, sure, but it had a huge crowd busting lungs with laughter. This is because it was a side diversion with limited participation. What's a small gamble in a community where money matches are going down at any given moment, hm?

Item tournaments, Smash Balls included, could be an awesome side diversion if we have the resources (setups, staff, etc.) and interest to make it happen. Smash 4 will have more item mechanics than ever; Olimar's Pikmin will grab and retrieve items they are thrown to, and Villager's Pocket ability of course opens up a whole realm of gameplay we'll scarcely see otherwisse.

The focus of every tournament should of course be the standard, item-free, non-ludicrous-stage, setup. A small tournament on the side, as long as it's not holding the bracket up, could be there for those who want to gamble. Granted, Smash tournaments already run late between just Melee and PM, so TOs would have to find ways to make it work somehow.

*Everyone except K9http://youtu.be/hZ5YfR9gU1I?t=4m35s

 

[CloneHat]

"I want items in tournaments. I want stage hazards in tournaments. Then I might actually watch boring competitive play."

Real quotes, real people. What these people don't know is what it's like to play the game for money.

 

[ChillySundance]

The argument against items is and always has been about more than just exploding capsules and bob-ombs. They're too random and too central to the outcome of a match. Yes, there is some skill in adapting to items when they spawn. No, it is not fair or competitive when the game decides to drop a maximum tomato right next to the character with the lowest HP.

In competitive fighting games, most resources are granted to players as a sort of reward for playing well. You get super bar for hitting the opponent. You get guard primer for being offensive, etc.

As a matter of principle, you play well, you are rewarded. That's the basis of competitive gaming. You CS well in league of legends? You get to buy items sooner than your opponent.

It would be different if items spawned in a certain location based on a predictable timer. That way, players would have to keep track of when the next item would spawn, and could contest it in a match of skill and mind games. As it is, items are awarded to players based on luck and proximity and little more.

Items are better and less obnoxious than smash balls, yeah, but they're still a little bit too random to feel good as a competitive system.

 

[Gust14]

To all the people supporting this idea: you are quite new to the smash competitive scene right? you didnt watch the first days of melee right? or the item balance play researches? or the evo where items were allowed and the HUGE backlash it produced?

You say you liked the invitational 4-player matches? they looked like any casual match ever, SO just buy the game and find 3 more people and have those matches in your own house, super simple.

Competitive smash is about the skills of 2 players controlling one character, and thats it. Thats why no items and no hazards are allowed. The few item-allowed tournaments that have been succesfull were side-tournies, and those are cool because they happen once in a while and people enjoy a break from the serious events and like to laugh at the silliness they provide

 

[ChillySundance]

Pretty sure early Brawl tournaments also experimented with items and smash balls didn't they? There's definitely a certain value to it, but it just hasn't proven itself to be viable for a healthy long-term competitive metagame.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Since competitive matches turn OFF items, this does include Smash Balls.

 

[Chibi-Chan]

Pretty sure early Brawl tournaments also experimented with items and smash balls didn't they? There's definitely a certain value to it, but it just hasn't proven itself to be viable for a healthy long-term competitive metagame.

Brawl at EVO with items on. Most depressing random tournament I have ever seen, even for Brawl... It was jut completely random who got the Smash Ball. Didn't feel like something worthy of EVO then.

 

[TheRage]

Then Sonic will be OP, his footspeed is greater than it was in brawl he'll just leave the competition and get the FS. If someone else gets it depending on the stage he can potentially run away or just use his spring.

You, sir, make a very good point. Now I know who to use in For Fun mode!

 

[HappyHouseSpider]

I agree. Items are counter-intuitive, because they undermine your potential and skill as a player. Items have obtainable-weaknesses and obtainable-strengths based on your character's movement speed, ability to zone and ability to escape. Anyone that is ninja-esque would dominate this game of items, which would render the point of the competitive smash community null.

 

[SmashChu]

I'm all for tourneys with items on, don't get me wrong. I just felt as though some people want this to be the new standard, and that, I'm not okay with. I'm for coexistence. Tourneys with items, and tourneys without. That, I believe would be fun, exciting, and would really represent the essence of Smash Bros.

EDIT - When I said "I just felt as though some people want this to be the new standard", I'm not really referencing this thread, but discussions I've had with people in the past - As in the focus of competitive play should include items, not 1v1 no items. And like I explained before, I'd like to see both forms of play. Like you mentioned, the invitational demonstrated how it could potentially work, definitely agree with you there. An even better example would be the 1v1 item matches Clash Tournaments uploaded, not sure if you've checked those out yet. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm all for both. The problem is you try to talk about items at all and people shut down and throw up the "nope, they random."

The fact is that item matches are more about the items than the PCs. Item tournaments are fine, but it should not and will not ever become the standard.

And frankly, there's nothing wrong with that. This is a game that anyone can play the way they want, and having both kinds of tournaments available is conducive to that.

That's kind of like saying "I don't like playing on Battlefield because it becomes too much about the platforms." How much items matter depends on the setting. They matter less on medium. Fun fact: did you know in the invitational the first round, Items were on high, second was on medium, and third was on low.

 

[HappyHouseSpider]

Fun fact: did you know in the invitational the first round, Items were on high, second was on medium, and third was on low.

Fun fact: As soon as items were on off during the grand finals, we could actually see the skill and potential in the players again; before it was chaos and wild, anyone could of won. A pit player (top tier) got destroyed by items. Ken got destroyed by items.

Items are basically extra projectiles.

 

[Banjodorf]

Yes, I actually did. It doesn't change the fact that the match becomes a race for the items.

 

[XStarWarriorX]

Lol this will never happen, FS's are broken and use no skill whatsoever in using them. People advocating for items are delusional, there's no fairness to them no matter how much you wanna test it.

I remember why I don't like coming here much.

Pointless thread really, pls lock.

 

[HappyHouseSpider]

Lol this will never happen, FS's are broken and use no skill whatsoever in using them. People advocating for items are delusional, there's no fairness to them no matter how much you wanna test it.

I remember why I don't like coming here much.

Pointless thread really, pls lock.

It may be delusional to you, because you're competitive; they are casual, so respect their casual view points on this game.

I work hard and I am passionately determined in everything I do. However, not everyone boasts such a kindled fire in these days, so I wouldn't push people too hard when they aren't doing it for themselves. Some people are too relaxed and don't understand this world from behind the fire point of view. Not everyone cared to swim beyond the flames, so to speak. So let's respect that. We, not them, should know better, since being competitive is the transcendence of skill and potential. We are all born casual; but only so many of us choose to stand and make something out of ourselves.

 

[JV5Chris]

I wish.

Then I might actually watch competitive play.

I don't disagree that some people would be more inclined to start watching, but from a purely spectators perspective, Smashballs dominate the potential happenings of a match with a few predictable scenarios. Once that ball is in play there's a high probability someone will loose a stock by it in what will be a very uneventful death upon repeat viewings.

When I think of the least eventful matches from the Invitational, Zero's repeat 4 final smashes match easily takes the cake. Smashballs are just a lot more gratifying to use in person than to watch in an event. The stale factor goes way up when you're not playing.