Smash 4 Projectile Tier List discussion (In a vacuum)

[Tycon]

I've spent quite a bit searching this exact topic only to find a rudimentary version of this conversation on an old Reddit post pertaining to melee and some for smash 4. I'd hope the users of this site could bring some extra insight. Keep in mind that this discussion is starting as of the recent launch of patch 1.1.4. Keep in mind i'll be missing quite a few entries as I really don't have enough experience to evaluate each projectile right away.

I intend to observe each projectile in terms of it's versatility, power, missile speed and start up/active/recovery frame data. We have to ignore the character attached to the attack as some bad characters will have good projectiles and good characters have bad projectiles which may include bias impact how they are seen (although typically good projectiles attribute to why characters are good). The projectile itself is the topic of discussion. Projectiles will include any move that spawns a separate hit box on the screen that is not attached to the character it originates from. (This topic will also include obscure projectiles such as non special moves and specials such as Bowser's fire.)

Off the top of my head the easier to place would be the following. Keep in my I'm not particularly the best person to make a definitive list so the following is my opinion and would learn greatly from the addition of others.

General Charged Projectile order:
Needles > High % Aura Sphere > Paralyzer > Shadow Ball > Thunder > Bonus Fruit >Megaman F Smash > Sun Salutation > Charged Shot > low% Aura Sphere > Pit Bow > DP Bow > TL Hero's Bow > Link's Hero's Bow > Clown Cannon

Projectiles as a whole with general placings

Top - Shiek's Needles (one of the fastest missile speeds, good start up, fair recovery) , Villager's Fair / Bair (great start up and recovery, useful in air, decent range)

High - Tink's Bomb, Link's Bomb, Megaman Up Air, Rob's Gyro, Fox's Laser, Olimar's Throw Pikmen, Toon Link's Boomerang, Megaman's Metal Blade, Pac Man's Bonus Fruit

Middle - Luigi Fireball, Mario Fireball, Falco's Laser, Rob's Laser, Bowser's Fire Breath

Low - Pit Arrow, Dark Pit Arrow (long recovery, low damage, high start up), Megaman's Crash Bomb, G&W Sausage

Bottom - Bowser JR.'s Clown Cannon (legendary terrible start up, recovery, weak knock back, telegraphed, can't hold charged) , Kirby's Final Cutter (weak, short range, poor frame data in all areas), Duckhunt's Wild Gunman (terrible start up, recovery and damage), Palutena's Autoreticle (probably the worst period)

I'd love some crowd input and help from player's much better than myself with more experience building probably a better list.

 

[/|Sawtooth/|]

You might want to look into Mii Gunner's projectles. Her f-air is particularly noteworthy because of it's momentum properties.

 

[Illusion.]

Water Shuriken?

 

[Aninymouse]

Just gonna say, Charizard's flamethrower is better than Bowser's flame breath.

In good conscience, I can't see G&W's bacon above Palutena's autoreticule.

Corrin's dragon fang shot is quite good. So is Bayonetta's neutral B.

Sheik's vanish is probably better than needles since vanish kills and makes Sheik invincible temporarily.

I see din's fire is missing from your list, as well as trick shot, clay pidgeon, Gordo, and others.

 

[FSLink]

Wild Gunman is actually a pretty good projectile since its main use is to be another tool along his other projectiles to force the opponent to block. It also cannot be absorbed by Rosalina's downB, making it pretty useful in that match up. The different gun shot timings can also throw opponents off.

 

[Capt. Tin]

Regarding Corrin, his projectile isn't really that good. I was able to cancel out fully charged dragon fang shots with any projectile easily, and it's also a relatively slow projectile that's easily reflectable.

Megavitamins also aren't on this list. I'd say they're higher than Mario's fireballs due to the trajectory and damage.

 

[Kofu]

Just gonna say, Charizard's flamethrower is better than Bowser's flame breath.

In good conscience, I can't see G&W's bacon above Palutena's autoreticule.

Corrin's dragon fang shot is quite good. So is Bayonetta's neutral B.

Sheik's vanish is probably better than needles since vanish kills and makes Sheik invincible temporarily.

I see din's fire is missing from your list, as well as trick shot, clay pidgeon, Gordo, and others.

Both Autoreticle and Chef are disruption tools. Chef is a little more versatile though, since it doesn't require a target, is a slightly less committal move, has a hitbox on Game & Watch's body, and can set up for traps. It's not a good tool in neutral but is excellent for when Game & Watch's advantaged state is waning or to try and put the opponent in a worse position to recover/land.

Vanish has separate data but I wouldn't call it a projectile.

Full list of projectiles:

Spoiler: projectiles

Mario: Fireball, FLUDD (debatable)
Luigi: Fireball
Peach: Vegetable
Bowser: Fire Breath
Yoshi: Egg Throw, Yoshi Bomb Star (debatable)
Rosalina & Luma: Star Bits (customs only)
Bowser Jr.: Clown Cannon, Mechakoopa
Diddy Kong: Peanut Popgun, Banana Peel, Rocketbarrel Boost (debatable)
Wario: Wario Bike
Mr. Game & Watch: Chef
Link: Hero's Bow, Gale Boomerang, Bombs
Zelda: Din's Fire, Phantom
Sheik: Needle Storm, Burst Grenade
Toon Link: Hero's Bow, Boomerang, Bombs
Samus: Charge Shot, Missiles, Bombs
Zero Suit Samus: Paralyzer, DSmash (debatable)
Pit: Palutena Bow
Palutena: Autoreticle, Explosive Flame, Celestial Firework (?)
Robin: Thunder (all variants), Arcfire, Elwind, used tomes, used Levin Sword
R.O.B.: Robo Beam, Gyro
Duck Hunt: Trick Shot, Clay Shooting, Wild Gunman
Kirby: Final Cutter Shockwave
King Dedede: Gordo Throw, Super Dedede Jump Star (debatable)
Fox: Blaster
Falco: Blaster, Reflector (debatable)
Pikachu: Thunder Jolt, Thunder
Charizard: Flamethrower, Rock Smash shards (?)
Lucario: Aura Sphere, Force Palm flare
Greninja: Water Shuriken
Ness: PK Flash, PK Fire, PK Thunder
Villager: FSmash, Dash Attack, FAir, BAir, Lloid Rocket, chopped Timber tree, USmash (debatable)
Olimar: Pikmin Throw, FSmash, USmash, DSmash
Wii Fit Trainer: Sun Salutation, Header
Pac-Man: Bonus Fruit, Fire Hydrant, Power Pellet (?)
Mega Man: Jab, FTilt, NAir, FSmash, UAir, DAir, Metal Blade, Crash Bomber, thrown Leaf Shield
Sonic: aerial Spring Jump (debatable)
Dr. Mario: Megavitamins
Dark Pit: Silver Bow
Mewtwo: Shadow Ball, Disable, FThrow Shadow Balls (debatable)
Lucas: PK Freeze, PK Fire, PK Thunder
Ryu: Hadouken, Shakunetsu
Cloud: Blade Beam, Limit Break Blade Beam
Corrin: Dragon Fang Shot
Bayonetta: Bullet Climax, Bullet Arts (?)
Mii Brawler: Shot Put
Mii Swordfighter: Gale Strike, Shuriken of Light, Chakram
Mii Gunner: FAir, Charge Blast, Laser Blaze, Grenade Launch, Flame Pillar, Stealth Burst, Missile Launch, Lunar Launch, Bomb Drop

I think that's everything. I only included the customs for the Mii Fighters and Palutena because of how their moves work. This is an ambitious project, one sure to be muddled a bit by opinion. I'm curious to see where it goes, though!

 

[chaos11011]

Adding my two cents to the gunmen info, but not going to say where it should be on the list because as a Duck Hunt main, I could have some bias:

- As mentioned above by FSLink , it cannot be absorbed by Rosa's G-Pull.
- Its delay is a pro in disguise. You can set one up and react to your opponent accordingly. Great examples of this are forcing a shield (which sets up a grab) and covering the ground as you cover a jump option with an aerial. Since they stay out for a long time, they're a good pressure tool, as it forces the opponent to be mindful of the space the gunmencover.They also provide combo confirms, as if the shot hits, you can lead into any aerial if you know the trajectory (this is essentially the greatest boon of gunmen)
- Gunmen fall in air if you set it on the ground (like on the edge of a platform or the stage). This provides good coverage and mix ups, as you don't need to dedicate to getting off of a platform to harass someone from below.
- Gunmen provide both offensive and defensive coverage. Not only can the stalled hit can protect you from a punish, but placing a gunmen in front of you can block an array of projectiles
- The variation of gunmen, each with different properties, can set up different scenarios once active. For example, because the white shirt gunman has the longest delay period, it gives you more time to analyze what your opponent will do and helps you decide whether to go in for a grab, aerial, or readjust yourself to a more favorable position

 

[TheHypnotoad]

R.O.B.'s gyro is definitely the second best projectile after Sheik's needles (it essentially IS Sheik's needles, but less spamable and possible to perfect shield, and can be Z-dropped), and Diddy's banana is definitely the third best (sets up into grab or smash attack), and Robin's Arcthunder is probably the fourth best (sets up into pretty much everything, notably grab, fair, uair, and Nosferatu, or can just kill by itself, and can't be perfect shielded).

 

[Poopysandwich]

Where is Peach's turnip? It has a lot of uses.

 

[Funen1]

Ness' PK Thunder should be at least in "high" on this list, if not "top". It's fantastic at juggling, edgeguarding, and frame-trapping into both itself and PKT2 - few projectiles are this versatile. PK Fire, on the other hand, I'd probably put in "low" because it's very punishable if you miss and the reward you get from it can be pretty inconsistent. And PK Flash might actually be worse than Autoreticle.

 

[AvengerV]

Sheik's Needles and Diddy's banana are the best projectiles

 

[Aninymouse]

Adding my two cents to the gunmen info, but not going to say where it should be on the list because as a Duck Hunt main, I could have some bias:

- As mentioned above by FSLink , it cannot be absorbed by Rosa's G-Pull.
- Its delay is a pro in disguise. You can set one up and react to your opponent accordingly. Great examples of this are forcing a shield (which sets up a grab) and covering the ground as you cover a jump option with an aerial. Since they stay out for a long time, they're a good pressure tool, as it forces the opponent to be mindful of the space the gunmencover.They also provide combo confirms, as if the shot hits, you can lead into any aerial if you know the trajectory (this is essentially the greatest boon of gunmen)
- Gunmen fall in air if you set it on the ground (like on the edge of a platform or the stage). This provides good coverage and mix ups, as you don't need to dedicate to getting off of a platform to harass someone from below.
- Gunmen provide both offensive and defensive coverage. Not only can the stalled hit can protect you from a punish, but placing a gunmen in front of you can block an array of projectiles
- The variation of gunmen, each with different properties, can set up different scenarios once active. For example, because the white shirt gunman has the longest delay period, it gives you more time to analyze what your opponent will do and helps you decide whether to go in for a grab, aerial, or readjust yourself to a more favorable position

Autoreticule jab locks. Chef has no follow-ups.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Mii Gunner's grenade, fair, and bombs are easily among the best projectiles in the game. They all give Mii Gunner movement options when they are used (grenades can be wavebounced, fair pushes gunner back a great distance when used to gundash, bomb can also be b-reversed and it can be used as a landing option), and they are great for approaching safely. They also combo into most of Gunner's moves. Grenade and bomb are also great for edgeguarding.

 

[1FC0]

But some projectiles cannot meaningfully be considered apart from their wielders.

Take the Gyro for example. R.O.B. can do Z-Drop Aerials where he Z-Drops the Gyro and then recatches it but the inferior robot Megaman has great difficulty in doing so since he Z-Drops projectiles too far behind him due to his inferior design. R.O.B'.s superior Z-Drop probably makes R.O.B. a better wielder of the Metal Blade as well.

Another example is Link arrows. They are better when used by Link than when used by Kirby due to Link's greater height providing the arrows that he fires with superior range when compared to arrows that are fired by Kirby.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

And for those characters who can duck under links higher shot arrows compared to kirbys? Considering the projectile itself ain't even that good.

 

[TheHypnotoad]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are only mentioning the projectiles that their own mains can use, but I'm still disappointed.

 

[Routa]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised that people are only mentioning the projectiles that their own mains can use, but I'm still disappointed.

It might have something to do with people being most familiar with the projectiles of their main.

Anyways I tell my opinion about projectiles later. But I will give you a hint.... It has something to do with Sheik's Needles not being the best projectile.

 

[NotAnAdmin]

Falco's laser is not mid tier.
No knockback, terrible start-up, barely any use in the neutral, barely any use off-stage, barely any use for anything, terrible endlag, terrible speed.
Only deals 3%.
It's just plain bad.

 

[Masonomace]

So basically, if this gets enough discussion & additional input on the matter, then a tier list of projectiles gets made? That's kinda cool. Kofu's post is a helpful addition for the thread's cause, so that'll be helpful. Kirby hat powers acquiring these powers could be taken into account, but I probably won't expect custom special variants to be included. The Mii Fighter special variants are included but with which height/weight sets?

The main things atm I'm thinking of are the 9% magic rule, applications, projectile frame data, projectile attributes, damage, & the interactions between projectiles / attacks.

 

[Kofu]

Autoreticule jab locks. Chef has no follow-ups.

Jab locking I'll give you (though would it not automatically use up all three lock options). But no follow ups for Chef? Do you understand the point of the move?

It has nothing guaranteed since the projectile is slow. But its value lies in how it can restrict or direct the opponent's movements and how Game & Watch can move to follow them. Getting grabs can be fairly easy (and Game & Watch's low percent grab reward is excellent). Landing smashes isn't even a stretch. It can also be used to set up edgeguards. I've recently taken to hopping offstage and use Chef toward the ledge as my opponent goes to recover to decent success. You can also use it to trap landings with move leeway than Autoreticle.

The moves aren't directly comparable and my experience with Palutena is limited, but I find that I tend to use both moves at similar times and for similar purposes (to disrupt the opponent and create openings). I just find Chef to be a bit better for that.

 

[Green Zelda]

General Charged Projectile order:
Needles > High % Aura Sphere > Paralyzer > Shadow Ball > Thunder > Bonus Fruit >Megaman F Smash > Sun Salutation > Charged Shot > low% Aura Sphere > Pit Bow > DP Bow > TL Hero's Bow > Link's Hero's Bow > Clown Cannon

Low - Pit Arrow, Dark Pit Arrow (long recovery, low damage, high start up), Megaman's Crash Bomb, G&W Sausage

???

EDIT: My bad, I thought you were ranking pit's bow high and low. Ignore this.

 

[meticulousboy]

Where is Peach's turnip? It has a lot of uses.

Seeing as how no one replied, I will chime in because I main Peach.

The good thing about turnips is that it can be reused if it hits an opponent, but not if it hits a shield (this isn't Melee). Also, if an opponent catches your turnip, that doesn't prohibit Peach from pulling up another one, unlike R.O.B. who has to wait for the gyro to disappear before using the move again.

So turnips are also good for an edgeguard at the cost of being caught and thrown back at you.

 

[DariusM27]

Has anyone made a list of slowest to fastest?

 

[JayE]

Samus fully charged charge shot is pretty good, its fast and powerful, and has some shieldbreak or kill setups.
I just wish her missiles were better, autocancelling like in Melee. But at least she has zair which is a good ranged spacing tool

 

[Crystanium]

Samus' Charge Shot
Fully charged, a CS eats through a lot of enemy projectiles. Pikmin, Link's and Toon Link's bombs, Gordo, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball, and Mecha Koopa are the only projectiles I'm aware of that stop CS. I think even a fully charged CS eats through Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball if they're partially charged. CS does 26% damage (ignore Training Mode, which puts it at 25%) and is a powerful kill move. Bomb to CS or Super Missile to CS will break shields.

 

[Rizen]

Link's/TL's bombs will cancel with fully charged shots. Bombs have a hurtbox that cancels pretty much every projectile unless they have multiple hits like metal blade or bounce properties like Gordos which they bounce away.

edit fixed, misread something.

 

[kendikong]

Flamethrower is incredibly good at covering all ledge options and also getting the 2 frame punish. Also makes gimping certain recoveries very easy (DK, Lucas, Ness, Cloud, Little Mac, Bowser Jr, Rob, Falcon to name a few). It is also free damage against many characters in neutral since it's so safe on shield. Definitely far better than Bowser's fire breath.

 

[Djmarcus44]

Samus' Charge Shot
Fully charged, a CS eats through a lot of enemy projectiles. Pikmin, Link's and Toon Link's bombs, Gordo, Aura Sphere, Shadow Ball, and Mecha Koopa are the only projectiles I'm aware of that stop CS. I think even a fully charged CS eats through Aura Sphere and Shadow Ball if they're partially charged. CS does 26% damage (ignore Training Mode, which puts it at 25%) and is a powerful kill move. Bomb to CS or Super Missile to CS will break shields.

Gunner's charge blast will cancel Samus's charge shot if both projectiles have the same amount of charge. Gunner's flame pillar will beat out charge shot.

This is inaccurate. Link's/TL's bombs will cancel with fully charged shots. Bombs have a hurtbox that cancels pretty much every projectile unless they have multiple hits like metal blade or bounce properties like Gordos which they bounce away.

@der Rabe said that bombs are among the list of projectiles that will cancel out charge shot.

 

[Rizen]

Gunner's charge blast will cancel Samus's charge shot if both projectiles have the same amount of charge. Gunner's flame pillar will beat out charge shot.



@der Rabe said that bombs are among the list of projectiles that will cancel out charge shot.

My bad, I misread that. I need to read things more carefully, I got a kitten recently and she's constantly interrupting me on the computer. I've been missing stuff a lot lately.

 

[Crystanium]

Gunner's charge blast will cancel Samus's charge shot if both projectiles have the same amount of charge. Gunner's flame pillar will beat out charge shot.



@der Rabe said that bombs are among the list of projectiles that will cancel out charge shot.

I suppose it's supposed to be a standard thing for the community to accept Miis, but I personally ignore Miis altogether. Still, for anyone who uses Miis, that's good to know.

 

[Diamond Octobot]

Your lack of lemons is disturbing...

Not putting the Mega Buster anywhere is kinda weird. Where would you put it ?

 

[SteadyDisciple]

Since this thread has been sufficiently necro'ed, I figure I can at least contribute some info for two underrepresented characters, Wii fit trainer and Greninja, both of whom have 2 projectiles.

/
Sun Salutation: Personally, I would rate this move higher than charge shot, about on par with shadow ball. Sun Salutation just has so much flexibility. It is strong enough to clank with even the strongest projectiles, and trump most others, and it's damage can be boosted further with deep breathing. It can also be charged while airborne, and because charging can be cancelled by shielding there are very few situations in which it is hard to reach full charge. On top of that, Sun Salutation has one element that no other projectile has; a full charge heals WFT for 2%. It may not seem like much, but given how easy it is to reach a full charge this starts to add up quickly. The move also has a wind box while charging that can help stop certain approaches or recoveries, but this particular element doesn't amount to much. The varying speeds depending on charge percentage can also be helpful, making it harder to power shield and allowing different follow-up tactics.

Header: This move has a lot going for it. On the most basic level it is a fast moving projectile that can be fired at two angles, and can be hit back (meaning it will also stop any other projectiles). Oh, and it doesn't stale, ever. Getting a little more complicated, the start of the move is a spike, making it do huge damage if hit with both parts of the attack, and a good kill option near ledges. However, there is one element that makes header truly shine. Canceling the move before the ball is hit spawns the ball directly in front of WFT. This gives the option to hit the ball with any of Wii Fit's other attacks, most of which have a variety of hitboxes, to launch the ball at any number of speeds and angles, as well as being hit to unstale kill moves. Finally, the ball can be left without a hitboxes after canceling near an opponent, at which point it can be hit point blank to greatly increase damage of basic moves like jab and back throw. While I wouldn't say this is the best projectile, it is by far the most versatile. Only real drawbacks are that you can only have 1 ball at a time so you can't use it rapid-fire, and it takes a bit of time to fire off in any but the basic angles.


Water Shuriken: This projectile is just beautiful. It makes for an amazing zoning tool, as it moves too fast at partial charge to be power shielded or reflected on reaction, and it clanks with many projectiles (charged projectiles trump it, but it's speed and range are great at harassing people so they don't get a charge to begin with). At full charge the move changes entirely. It changes from clanking to transcending priority, doing a number of small hits and dragging the opponent until it pops. It also gets slower, but this can allow for combos at some percentages and ranges. The fully charged version can also catch most characters hanging on the ledge, and it's slow speed forces either a roll in or release if the opponent waits too long. Finally, all charge percentages let the user briefly stall in the air for some defensive tricks.

Hydro Pump: Of all the listed projectiles in this post, probably the worst, only really here for the sake of completion. Part of a very solid recovery move, but the projectiles themselves are somewhat lackluster. Four projectiles fired in 1 or 2 directions, each doing 2% damage and pushing the opponent (like the F.L.U.D.D.). Fires only 2 if used horizontally while on the ground, or 1 if fired at an upward angle from the ground. A good gimping tool, especially against certain characters, and can mess up landing options for some characters, but the long startup, short range, and minimal damage mean that, as a projectile, it is situation at best. Much more valuable as a recovery tool, since the water can be used when near the ledge to push opponents out of a ledge guard position before changing directions to grab the ledge.

 

[DunnoBro]

R.O.B.'s gyro is definitely the second best projectile after Sheik's needles (it essentially IS Sheik's needles, but less spamable and possible to perfect shield, and can be Z-dropped), and Diddy's banana is definitely the third best (sets up into grab or smash attack), and Robin's Arcthunder is probably the fourth best (sets up into pretty much everything, notably grab, fair, uair, and Nosferatu, or can just kill by itself, and can't be perfect shielded).

I think aura sphere overall (not just high or low %) is the #5 spot. While somewhat linear, it is overall the most useful of the charge ball moves due to it's passive charge hitbox, and more notably ledge coverage with it. Even in a vacuum, I'm sure most chars would love to have aura sphere when the opponent grabs ledge.

And I'd put duck hunt's wild gunmen in mid-tier. It frametraps for grabs and blocks other projectiles. (Mainly energy based like charge shot or shadowball) Overall it's a more useful neutral tool than mario's fireball for sure. (Though of course fireballs can edgeguard)