Smash 4 Meta

[NisforSmash]

My thoughts on the potential meta of smash 4.

We know sakurai said he wanted to make the game somewhere between melee and brawl in terms of speed,
but is this completely true?

If smash 4 were the exact same thing as melee not many casual players would know. Casual brawl players usually will argue that brawl is better because x, y and z but in all honesty the reason they promote brawl is because it's newer. I know this because I was casual and my only argument against melee players was "because brawl is more balanced (which was bs because I knew nothing of balancing)."


I'm not promoting one game over the other, I'm just pointing things out that I've noticed. If you stick with me it'll all make sense.

On the other hand, melee casuals understand that they're casual because they can't perform on the level competitive players do, or because they get a better sense of gratification when chaining hits together a.k.a comboing. I would say melee casuals on average are more familiar with meta than brawl casuals.

Now why does this matter?

Because if Sakurai rehashed every meta aspect of melee/P:M, the only people that would know would be competitive players. They obviously wouldn't complain about it and would love the game. Casuals would be all for it because it has the title "Super Smash Brothers".

So then why would he say somewhere in between the two? That's easy. Crowd Appeal. Sakurai realizes the community is divided partially due to his and Nintendo's actions, so the most logical thing to do to get the community back together is to make a game which has what both want. Competitive players want meta, casual players want easily approachable smash. He can provide both and undue the damage done to this split community. On top of that, if it becomes MLG viable, everybody wins. Nintendo gets money and publicity, the community gets popularity and recognition.

TL;DR

I guess what I'm trying to say is he could be lying to casuals just to make it seem like he's catering to both when in actuality he might just be catering to competitive players. Of course I could be wrong.

At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing.

What do you think?
Thanks for the read. I apologize for the length.

 

[Adrian G]

What if he's lying to the hard core gamers?

 

[Smur]

I don't think it's possible to cater to both . If it were like Melee, lots of people would start losing to the guys who actually put time in to practice (this is what Sakurai doesn't like...for some reason). So far SSB4 looks like a brawl re-hash with a slight speed increase. I don't think we'll see a truly competitive smash game ever again..so sad

 

[Calzum!]

i do not get the logic in sakurai head ever

Melee was still what he wanted, a party game, and the most successful game on the GC, it just so happened it was party game with a huge in delph engine suited for a tournament fighter

instead of the dude not liking what he made and never want to make it like that again , shouldn't he be happy and proud with the fact that 11 years on 120,000 people watched his brain child on a stream

i dont have hope for ssb4 in terms of tournament play just making a game slightly faster then Brawl wont make any difference, as a party game, it'll sell like hot cakes

tl;dr Sakurai is a silly

 

[NisforSmash]

I don't think it's possible to cater to both . If it were like Melee, lots of people would start losing to the guys who actually put time in to practice (this is what Sakurai doesn't like...for some reason). So far SSB4 looks like a brawl re-hash with a slight speed increase. I don't think we'll see a truly competitive smash game ever again..so sad

yea it looks that way. i'd be happy if he added in hitstun again.

like !Callum! said, sakurai is silly.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Casuals will play anything, hardcore or not. So long as it has something to initially draw them in, that is (which is usually something as simple as the characters).
Competitive players, however, tend to be a bit more picky. At least I'd like to think so.
Why Sakurai would decide to cut out a loyal audience that has potential to grow when he could have both is beyond me. But it's rare anything he says makes sense.

I think Smash 4 will be at least better than Brawl, and it definitely looks faster. But as for hitstun and all that, I'm not sure. I'm guessing it will have it but I could be wrong. It looks kind of like they're trying to put the speed somewhere in the middle without raising the skill cap too much. I don't think there will be much more than autocanceling cancel-wise, but all the movement and attacks look faster, which is at least a step in the right direction I guess.
It might be able to still be a deep game without wavedashing and other Melee-esque ATs (which aren't necessary imo), but it will need a few extra ATs somewhere in there and be balanced properly to make it good for those who want to take the game seriously.

But at least Sakurai isn't balancing it this time.

 

[IhaveSonar]

I don't understand why people are so innately pessimistic about Smash 4. Sakurai has already confirmed that Smash 4 will be faster and have no tripping, two essential mechanics for a more competitive Smash. Furthermore, based on what we have seen of gameplay, there appears to be proper hitstun and a more balanced cast. Assuming that all this holds true upon release, I would argue that this could be the best Smash for competition yet.

 

[PikaJew]

People need to stop comparing this to Melee.
Brawl was competitive, just not in the Melee way.
If you get this game with a Melee mindset and hope it plays exactly the same you are going to be disappointed... again...

 

[mimgrim]

i'd be happy if he added in hitstun again.

But as for hitstun and all that, I'm not sure.

Just so you 2 know. Brawl had the same amount of hitstun as Melee but a programming error in Brawl made it to where the hitstun could be canceled via air dodges and attack. Hitstun was never taken away and has been in all 3 Smash games and from the Sonic video it is back in Smash 4 it just depends on if there ends up being a way to cancel it again.

 

[Placebo Effect]

Just so you 2 know. Brawl had the same amount of hitstun as Melee but a programming error in Brawl made it to where the hitstun could be canceled via air dodges and attack. Hitstun was never taken away and has been in all 3 Smash games and from the Sonic video it is back in Smash 4 it just depends on if there ends up being a way to cancel it again.

I knew about the it having the same amount of hitstun, and it being cancellable. Not about it being a glitch that made it so though. Weird. I guess that makes sense though since that's the same reason jab locking exists (among other things). I hope they don't rush this one and have it filled with glitches and weird stuff like Brawl was.
I hope this doesn't end up being like Melee though tbh, somewhere in the middle would be nice imo.

And we only have 3 other official Smash games, even though this one is more similar to Brawl we don't have much to compare it to outside of mods lol. Of course it's not going to be the next Melee, but comparing aspects of a game to another game like speed is fastest.

 

[J1NG]

Here I was thinking this was going to be a prediction thread.
Oh well.
I think it is possible to balance Smash 4 between Melee and Brawl.
I might have mentioned this before, but I've been away for a while, so here's my example for a game mechanic:

A. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is standing still > Luigi takes damage and suffers from Brawl's hitstun
B. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is attacking > Luigi takes more damage(?) and suffers from Melee's hitstun.

In exhibit B, Mario has performed a Counter Hit on Luigi. This mechanic is in the same vein as games like Street Fighter Alpha and Soul Calibur. If that's the case, Sakurai may actually avoid implementing such a feature, since I think he wants Smash to be different from other fighting games, correct? All I'm saying is that a few small mechanics like that may make a huge difference while preserving the integrity and uniqueness of the Smash franchise. You might think such a mechanic is a horrible idea, but I'm totally open to hear a different suggestion.

 

[mimgrim]

Here I was thinking this was going to be a prediction thread.
Oh well.
I think it is possible to balance Smash 4 between Melee and Brawl.
I might have mentioned this before, but I've been away for a while, so here's my example for a game mechanic:

A. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is standing still > Luigi takes damage and suffers from Brawl's hitstun
B. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is attacking > Luigi takes more damage(?) and suffers from Melee's hitstun.

In exhibit B, Mario has performed a Counter Hit on Luigi. This mechanic is in the same vein as games like Street Fighter Alpha and Soul Calibur. If that's the case, Sakurai may actually avoid implementing such a feature, since I think he wants Smash to be different from other fighting games, correct? All I'm saying is that a few small mechanics like that may make a huge difference while preserving the integrity and uniqueness of the Smash franchise. You might think such a mechanic is a horrible idea, but I'm totally open to hear a different suggestion.

The problem with "Brawl hitstun" and "Melee hitstun" is that they are the same hitstun, the only reason Brawl seems less is due to a programming error that allowed it to be canceled, as I stated earlier.

 

[Medaka444]

If smash 4 were the exact same thing as melee not many casual players would know.

No. I remember a few months ago, after I played Brawl for a few weeks, I decided to buy Melee, playing it for the first time in years. It was quite a disorienting experience, as the increased speed, gravity, and inability to ledgegrab behind you felt completely off and difficult to control. It took a while for the feeling to wear off. However, I am just one example.

On the other hand, melee casuals understand that they're casual because they can't perform on the level competitive players do, or because they get a better sense of gratification when chaining hits together a.k.a comboing. I would say melee casuals on average are more familiar with meta than brawl casuals.

Why? Brawl casuals could look up videos of tournaments and realize they can't play nearly that well. Just like with Melee.

I guess what I'm trying to say is he could be lying to casuals just to make it seem like he's catering to both when in actuality he might just be catering to competitive players. Of course I could be wrong.

He potentially could, but I see no reason to think so.

At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing.

Wavedashing was nowhere to be seen in 64. Something can't be core if it's in only one-third of a series.

 

[Delgado]

hitstun is the main problem in brawl. even if it's a programming error or something else we play this error and it's a horrible mistake. I played it with a 'normal' histun and was 10000x better than vanilla

 

[D-idara]

I just hope it isn't Melee 2.0, no wavedash and no glorified glitches plz!

 

[Smur]

WHY IS THIS COMPETITIVE? D:

 

[mimgrim]

WHY IS THIS COMPETITIVE? D:

Because the smash community made it competitive? Obvious answer is obvious.

 

[Delgado]

I just hope it isn't Melee 2.0, no wavedash and no glorified glitches plz!

'glitches' lol

WHY IS THIS COMPETITIVE? D:

this is the brawl version of armada x hungrybox but slower

 

[Rodriguez5]

What I don't understand is why Sakurai tries to make the game between melee and brawl. Competitive and casual... Making it casual basically means making it accessible which is what all 3 smash games have. In that case making it casual is the most simplistic goal. Giving it that competitive touch doesn't affect the casual aspect of the game. You can make the game as tournament worthy as melee and have the content that could satisfy the casuals to catch the eye of both sides. It's that easy. What casuals like is content, accessibility and the name. If it has that you can add anything to the gameplay and they will still take it. In that case add everything the competitive scene loves. The casuals will let the disc collect dust after a year and the competitive players will carry on the game... Again it's easy to appeal to both sides...

 

[Morbi]

I honestly think the central goal is to make a console seller. It honestly feels like there is less emphasis on the game, and more emphasis on the promotion. That is never a good sign. However, I maintain my high hopes for the game. I believe it will be more casual orientated, obviously some elements will cater to the competitive scene. I don't think that is the focus though.

 

[J1NG]

The problem with "Brawl hitstun" and "Melee hitstun" is that they are the same hitstun, the only reason Brawl seems less is due to a programming error that allowed it to be canceled, as I stated earlier.

Well, l-cancelling or not, I still think having 2 different hit stuns would be a -decent- idea. Also, I don't think L-Cancelling was a programming error, right? I remember someone here on Smashboards talking about how it was deliberately added, but wavedashing was the technique that developed due to oversights in the uses of Melee's air dodge.
I also wouldn't mind selective auto-l-cancelling. I think this is what Brawl had, but the idea was that you didn't have to press L or R to cancel an aerial like in Melee. Certain attacks just had little/no landing lag.
To be honest, a slightly faster Brawl doesn't get me as excited as the thought of new gameplay mechanics, unless the new mechanics are something like random tripping.

 

[DakotaBonez]

Every day, I wonder where brawl would be if tripping wasn't included.

Still, even brawl matches are more entertaining to watch then other fighting games. The mobility in smash games keeps the battles from getting repetitive. Like, every street fighter match is the same game of jumping over hadoukens. Whereas in smash bros, you can roll, dodge, jump, deflect etc...

 

[J1NG]

Every day, I wonder where brawl would be if tripping wasn't included.

Still, even brawl matches are more entertaining to watch then other fighting games. The mobility in smash games keeps the battles from getting repetitive. Like, every street fighter match is the same game of jumping over hadoukens. Whereas in smash bros, you can roll, dodge, jump, deflect etc...

I can agree that a lot of what makes Smash Bros. unique is the dynamic game play. I can't tell you how many times I've seen a traditional fighting game at top level play while watching players execute the same combos over and over again(Marvel being one of the big offenders). I remember reading another post talking about how the "flying fists" in other fighting games may be spectacular, but at high level play, it's the same "flying fists" over and over. I don't think the same can be said about Smash.

 

[Dr. James Rustles]

I wish people would begin correctly using the word "meta." You don't use the word to describe advanced techniques and well established strategies.

"We know sakurai said he wanted to make the game somewhere between melee and brawl in terms of speed,
but is this completely true?"

"So then why would he say somewhere in between the two? That's easy. Crowd Appeal."

"At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing."

These ideas aren't properly connected.

 

[mimgrim]

Well, l-cancelling or not, I still think having 2 different hit stuns would be a -decent- idea. Also, I don't think L-Cancelling was a programming error, right? I remember someone here on Smashboards talking about how it was deliberately added, but wavedashing was the technique that developed due to oversights in the uses of Melee's air dodge.
I also wouldn't mind selective auto-l-cancelling. I think this is what Brawl had, but the idea was that you didn't have to press L or R to cancel an aerial like in Melee. Certain attacks just had little/no landing lag.
To be honest, a slightly faster Brawl doesn't get me as excited as the thought of new gameplay mechanics, unless the new mechanics are something like random tripping.

L-canceling is not a programming error, I never even implied it was. L-cancel was added on purpose, it eve had it own page on the original 64 website, now whether or not it was a smart mechanic is open to debate and is something I would rather avoid. You are also correct on Wavedashing, it was implemented on purpose but was found by testers and was left in on purpose as Sakurai himself stated. And n Bawl didn't have auto L-cancel, Bowser still has very laggy landing moves for all of his air attacks but lighter characters have less lag on them making lighter characters way more viable. As for 2 different hitstuns, I think it is an unnecessary mechanic and would be quite a effort to program I would imagine. A for other new mechanics, this might sound odd but, honestly I want more status affects and types and more attacks to give them and for them to last a bit longer, like 10-20 seconds maybe even 30 seconds.

I wish people would begin correctly using the word "meta." You don't use the word to describe advanced techniques and well established strategies.

"We know sakurai said he wanted to make the game somewhere between melee and brawl in terms of speed,
but is this completely true?"

"So then why would he say somewhere in between the two? That's easy. Crowd Appeal."

"At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing."

These ideas aren't properly connected.

Well to be fair the word "meta" is a rather loose word. IIRC its true definition is a concept that indicates an abstraction from a different concept, or something like that. So it doesn't surprise me it gets used incorrectly since people misinterpret it's meaning.

 

[NisforSmash]

I wish people would begin correctly using the word "meta." You don't use the word to describe advanced techniques and well established strategies.

"We know sakurai said he wanted to make the game somewhere between melee and brawl in terms of speed,
but is this completely true?"

"So then why would he say somewhere in between the two? That's easy. Crowd Appeal."

"At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing."

These ideas aren't properly connected.

Well explain to me how I can properly connect them.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I just hope it isn't Melee 2.0, no wavedash and no glorified glitches plz!

Sakurai stated L-cancel and Wavedashing weren't glitches. L-canceling has been in Smash since 64 and on the Smash 64 website during that time called L-canceling an advance technique called "Smooth Landing" look it up. Wavedashing was a side effect of Melee' air dodge that they realized and let it be. The only actual "glorified glitch" that I can think of was Moonwalking.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I don't understand why Sakurai is such a hard head? It seriously isn't that hard to please both types of Smashers whether they are hardcore or casual. Fix the hitstun, increase the gravity, decrease the landing lag from aerials and boom, you have your self something we competitive players can appreciate and casual gamers won't notice a thing because they are too busy trying out all new Final Smashes. I wish we could get wavedashing back. It was great for connecting attacks and spacing. Also I would like for them to add a juggle system. For example, if I attack you and you fall and don't tech I should be able to pick you off the ground with some sort of attack and continue my combo. This would be an awesome mechanic and would force players to stay on their toes. Smash is so full of potential and Sakurai doesn't realize it. Nintendo said it wanted to take back the hardcore gamer yet they keep pushing us away, remember what they almost did at Evo?

 

[D-idara]

I don't understand why Sakurai is such a hard head? It seriously isn't that hard to please both types of Smashers whether they are hardcore or casual. Fix the hitstun, increase the gravity, decrease the landing lag from aerials and boom, you have your self something we competitive players can appreciate and casual gamers won't notice a thing because they are too busy trying out all new Final Smashes. I wish we could get wavedashing back. It was great for connecting attacks and spacing. Also I would like for them to add a juggle system. For example, if I attack you and you fall and don't tech I should be able to pick you off the ground with some sort of attack and continue my combo. This would be an awesome mechanic and would force players to stay on their toes. Smash is so full of potential and Sakurai doesn't realize it. Nintendo said it wanted to take back the hardcore gamer yet they keep pushing us away, remember what they almost did at Evo?

This is another thing I hate about 'competitive' Smash players (Competitive doesn't have to be No items, Final Destination, Fox only)...they hate Fina Smashes!? When will people understand that supermoves are the life of a fighting game? Without supermoves, where's the flashyness and the spectacularity? Oh, right, you prefer glitching through the ground over shooting enormous attacks or doing finishing moves.

 

[Jigglymaster]

This is another thing I hate about 'competitive' Smash players (Competitive doesn't have to be No items, Final Destination, Fox only)...they hate Fina Smashes!? When will people understand that supermoves are the life of a fighting game? Without supermoves, where's the flashyness and the spectacularity? Oh, right, you prefer glitching through the ground over shooting enormous attacks or doing finishing moves.

The problem with Final smashes is the fact that rather than earning it as a comeback move like in Street Fighter 4, its completely unbalanced and luck based in Brawl. In Street Fighter 4 just because you had an Ultra you couldn't just use it and expect to automatically win, infact if you missed which was very likely, you'd get punished for it. In Brawl the item randomly spawns and gives advantage to the character who can move faster than the other. And most of the time when you got a final smash you could just press B anywhere on the screen and get a Free K.O. Sonic got the smash ball? Lol press B your opponent automatically loses a life. And then there are some characters like Ike who actually have to land the hit, and most of the time they don't even GET the K.O. Even worse there are some characters that are almost impossible to get a K.O with because they're so easy to avoid. How is that fair?

Not to mention, the 3 stock 8 minutes rule would be completely out of wack because adding smashballs would require more stocks since they're so powerful. Then competitive matches are no longer about beating your opponent the traditional way, but rather by scouting out the Final Smash and killing them that way. Even on the lowest setting Smashballs will come out waaay to frequently. In a Sonic player's eyes its like saying "I just have to get the Smash Ball 3 times this game and I win!" Which, is very possible.

If Smashballs were ever to become viable you'd need to fix these things about them
- They need to be Weaker
- They need to be more balanced
- They need to be punishable
- You'd need to be rewarded with it rather than it randomly spawning on the map.

Smashballs /= Super Moves

 

[Big-Cat]

Here I was thinking this was going to be a prediction thread.
Oh well.
I think it is possible to balance Smash 4 between Melee and Brawl.
I might have mentioned this before, but I've been away for a while, so here's my example for a game mechanic:

A. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is standing still > Luigi takes damage and suffers from Brawl's hitstun
B. Mario attacks Luigi while Luigi is attacking > Luigi takes more damage(?) and suffers from Melee's hitstun.

In exhibit B, Mario has performed a Counter Hit on Luigi. This mechanic is in the same vein as games like Street Fighter Alpha and Soul Calibur. If that's the case, Sakurai may actually avoid implementing such a feature, since I think he wants Smash to be different from other fighting games, correct? All I'm saying is that a few small mechanics like that may make a huge difference while preserving the integrity and uniqueness of the Smash franchise. You might think such a mechanic is a horrible idea, but I'm totally open to hear a different suggestion.

The whole thing about wanting Smash to be different from other fighters is read in too deeply. He said he wanted an alternative based on the high skill caps, or rather the overly steep learning curves. He has attempted to address this with the simplified attack inputs, especially for specials.

That being said, it's not like Sakurai has outright said to avoid any and all fighting game mechanics. If that were the case, he would've contradicted himself since Smash 64.

So we could see something like counter hits or even assorted cancels, hit and blockstun like other fighters, and air dashing. In fact, I think those four and actual throw escapes would not only enhance the game but help spread diversity amongst the cast without resorting to gimmicks.

 

[Medaka444]

@Shyguy: The biggest thing to fear is developers making it so (even if accidentally) that you need to master these techniques to accomplish anything, even in single-player. It would be especially bad if it happened for things that need very precise timing, like wavedashing or perfect shielding. But, this is quite unlikely to happen. Not that it matters, because the devs are actively trying to bridge the gap.

@Jiggly: I never understood the point of hating the existence of things that can simply be turned off. It's like complaining that all your friends always want to play Metal mode in Versus, so it shouldn't have been included. I do agree that Super Sonic and Landmaster should be nerfed, though. Also, Final Smashes do act as a minor comeback mechanic, but only if you're far behind in lives.

 

[elatedshyguy]

I wish people would begin correctly using the word "meta." You don't use the word to describe advanced techniques and well established strategies.

"We know sakurai said he wanted to make the game somewhere between melee and brawl in terms of speed,
but is this completely true?"

"So then why would he say somewhere in between the two? That's easy. Crowd Appeal."

"At it's core I think smash meta includes Hitstun, speed, DI, SHFFing and Wave landing/dashing."

These ideas aren't properly connected.

He isn't necessarily using the prefix incorrectly. Meta means "beyond", so Metagame could be mean deeper gameplay mechanics or beyond the basics. So in a way it can be used to describe advance techniques but it isn't limited to that. It's a difficult word to explain I hope you guys understood my explanation :D

 

[elatedshyguy]

This is another thing I hate about 'competitive' Smash players (Competitive doesn't have to be No items, Final Destination, Fox only)...they hate Fina Smashes!? When will people understand that supermoves are the life of a fighting game? Without supermoves, where's the flashyness and the spectacularity? Oh, right, you prefer glitching through the ground over shooting enormous attacks or doing finishing moves.

I don't hate them, I'm just saying a casual gamer would be looking for all of the new stuff, while the competitive gamers are busy studying the game's physics and what have you. I said it the way I did to give an effect of contrast between both types of gamers, while stating that the next Smash can please both groups, in order to give off a sense of irony to make my post interesting. Sorry for confusion, I don't hate Final Smashes and when the next Smash comes out I will be looking for all of the new stuff and studying it as well

 

[D-idara]

I liked almost everything about that post except the things about "Busy studying the game's physics" Competitive players and casual players alike should just be having fun at first, playing wacky matches with items on in crazy stages, unlocking chars, reading trophies, fanboying over characters. I consider myself borderline competitive but I still know that the correct way to play Smash is to play it chaotic and wacky.

 

[Jigglymaster]

@Jiggly: I never understood the point of hating the existence of things that can simply be turned off. It's like complaining that all your friends always want to play Metal mode in Versus, so it shouldn't have been included. I do agree that Super Sonic and Landmaster should be nerfed, though. Also, Final Smashes do act as a minor comeback mechanic, but only if you're far behind in lives.

I never actually said I hated it. I was only arguing behind the fact of why its banned in competitive tournaments. I'm a competitive player myself and when the game first came out we were all actually excited for smashballs and hoping they could be implemented into tournaments. Sadly we found out that they just weren't cut out for it and we had to ban them. They just changed things up too much.


I always liked playing with items, playing on wacky stages, and having fun, but I also like playing competitively on fair stages to test out my skill against other players. My main character is Diddy Kong for that very reason as he can spawn bananas (items) at will.

 

[Jumpman84]

I liked almost everything about that post except the things about "Busy studying the game's physics" Competitive players and casual players alike should just be having fun at first, playing wacky matches with items on in crazy stages, unlocking chars, reading trophies, fanboying over characters. I consider myself borderline competitive but I still know that the correct way to play Smash is to play it chaotic and wacky.

Just because they should doesn't mean they will. A lot of people on another thread have said that the first thing they would do in Smash 4 would be heading to the Training mode. Yeah, some people just have different ideas of fun.