Smash 4 "competitive complaints"

[Blazing Ambition]

Hello. I've been playing Smash for a little over 5 years (both for fun and competitively), and while I'm in no way a SUPREME MASTER at the game, I feel confident in stating that Smash 4 has a number of glaring issues that really prevent the game from being fun to play at a competitive level.
*Disclaimer*
THESE ARE BUT THE THOUGHTS OF ONE MAN. I DON'T HATE THE GAME, I JUST FEEL IT COULD BE BETTER. IF YOU LOVE ANYTHING I DISLIKE, THAT'S OK. I'M NOT TELLING YOU TO HATE THAT THING, IM JUST EXPRESSING MYSELF.

With that out of the way, my problems are as follows.
* denotes a minor grievance
-Killing in this game takes too long

-The lack of movement options

-Recovery is a no-brainer.

-The"Rage Effect"*

-Spammable Rolls/Air dodges*

-No stages #BANNED*

-The rise of Hyper-armor*

-The lack of "meteor canceling"*

-Sour-spots abound*
------------------------------------------------------------------------
1. Killing people takes forever.
In every Smash brothers game, the objective is to KO the opponent via either launching them into the stratosphere, or finding some other way to get them offstage far enough that they collide with the instant-kill boundaries encompassing each level (called "blast zones" by most smashers). However, this simple task has become more difficult in this game, with larger blast zones, techniques like vectoring (DI's steroidal cousin) and spectacular recovery moves allowing players to easily live past 150% and surface from the depths of hell.(I'm looking at you, Villager.)
Pros:
-You get to play for a longer time per game (multiplayer only)
-Kills are more satisfying (?)
-You get to see that cool red lightning effect... Over and over again.
Cons:
-Matches take YEARS to complete
-To keep match lengths reasonable, tourneys can only afford to do 2-3 stock matches. Less lives = Less room for mistakes = More defensive play = Less Hype
-Killing becomes a chore, especially with the reduced potency of edge guarding.

2. Lack of movement options.
Despite being a fighting game on a 2D plane, smash bros has a wealth of movement options that separate it from the rest of the crowd. For one, you can jump. And run. And frolic. And turn around. And moonwalk. And if you've been having a bad day, you can just walk off the edge and kill yourself. These various options allowed for new and innovative ways of approaching the opponent (except suiciding of course), and was a stark contrast to the standard "two guys who always face each other and punch and kick and stuff" genre of fighting games. However, lack of mobility options in this games means that:
Cons:
-Approaches are streamlined, and the player has the choice of Dash attack, grab, and Side+B when they wish to approach. Nothing against those moves, but watching the same progression of "Dash attack -> roll -> Running grab -> repeat until opponent is hit" is beyond stale.
-Limits the use of platforms, as they can no longer be wave-landed off of to mix up opponents and continue combos.
-The lack of dash-dancing prevents any way for the player to bait the opponent and reduces mind games to "who shields first?"
*note: While an offshoot of dash-dashing is possible in Smash 4, it's not effective for movement, as you basically stay in the same spot, running back and forth. Unless you plan to weave in and out of jigglypuff's FREAKING JAB RANGE, this technique isn't very effective.
-Characters that benefitted heavily from said movement options like wave-dashing are now exponentially worse. (RIP GANONDORF 2001-2008)
-Moonwalking, while not the most practical technique, looked stylish and helped add flair to the game and the player. It will be sorely missed.
-The lack of options encourages players to roll more, as it's about as fast as running, depending on the character, and relatively safe. This in turn leads to more sluggish, defensively based matches, which are just not fun to watch.
*note: Reverse Aerial Rush (a technique from brawl that allowed a player to throw advancing back-airs) is still in the game, and very useful. Nothing else to say, really. It's awesome. Use it.

3. Smash 4 puts Project M's recovery to shame.
Seriously. It's ridiculous. While most characters have average recovery, some are just inexcusable. While some characters like Captain Falcon have had their recoveries nerfed over the years (Aerial falcon kicks no longer let the player use an extra double jump), there are now a variety of characters that can do the following:
-Travel ALL THE WAY underneath the stage and emerge on the other side.
-Return from the lowest levels of Tartarus/ the far reaches of the screen.
-Stall in the air for obscene amounts of time (less common than the other two, but still relevant when it comes to competitive play and time-out matches.)
-Grapple onto the ledge via tether, making edge guarding their recovery nearly impossible. Seriously. It's a silly mechanic that adds nothing to the game.

Also, characters who didn't need recovery buffs got them. Fox, whose recovery was in no way lacking, gained the ability to Side+B AND THEN Up+B, allowing him to recover from nigh-impossible distances. Why? Killing is already difficult, what with the widened blast zones and nerf to edge guarding.
The return of brawl's patented "auto sweetspot" of the ledge, coupled with Smash 4's new ledge mechanic that prevents "ledge hogging/gimping" (in prior titles, if a player was already grabbing the ledge, another player couldn't ALSO grab the ledge, and would fall to their death. Smash 4 flips this mechanic on it's head, allowing player to "bump" others off of the ledge, effectively removing ledge hogging as a strategy.) and leads to longer, more drawn out games.

Phew. Felt good to let it all out. Feel free to disagree, challenge, or contest what I've said, and I'll go over and explain my minor complaints at a later time.

TL/DR: Smash 4 has little room for complex movement or mind games, overpowered recovery and weakened kill power, and is currently not a fun game (for me).
Also no stages wtf sakurai nobody asked for 12 mario levels bring back Pokemon stadium or riot

 

[Sleek Media]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

 

[Jaxas]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

This, definitely.

Also, just for reference, VI has been proven to be significantly weaker than DI was. There was some confusion early on, because an extremely potent version of crouch-cancelling is in Smash 4, and I was holding down prior to the hit while testing. (Mostly my bad on that one, sorry everyone!)

 

[Signia]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

He gave plenty of reasons that didn't involve Melee.

Can you give one counterargument that's not "you just want it to be Melee?"

 

[Cornstalk]

Lack of approach options is a serious thing that many characters suffer with in this game. It has nothing to do with comparing it to melee, and everything to do with keeping the game fast paced and exciting. A character like Toon Link can just sit there, throw stuff at you, and bat you away with the sword when you come in. He's fast enough and small enough with nice large hit boxes. Characters like Ganon are always going to be at such a gross disadvantage here, why should the toon link player need to adapt their play style much against the slower projectile-less portion of the cast?

Blast Zones being too large isn't so much a fault of the game as a whole, but rather the fault of poor stage variety. Omega mode was a bandaid for the fan request of 'more neutral stages'. What we really wanted was a feature for turning off the hurt boxes on stages like Pictochat and WarioWare. Many of the transforming stages are actually pretty cool, but for some horrible reason all include hazards that easily KO you (rainbow road is a perfect example). I'm not even sure who finds deadly stage hazards fun in 4 player FFA with items on, honestly... seriously, who's the target audience for that?


Those two simple things would definitely help Smash 4's 1 on 1 scene out with very little effort. The funny thing is, the method is already in the game with custom equipment. Unfortunately, the custom equipment system is so f'd up right now that's it will literally take a patch that adds an in game store where you can customize each piece of equipment for the special ability, stat+, and stat- for it to even come close to being competitively functional. This randomized equipment drop **** pisses me off more than any far fest I've ever done in an RPG, and I had the patience to do mephisto runs in diablo 2 for HOURS straight. -_-

 

[JediLink]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

I really wish people would stop trying to dodge around criticisms by using inane strawman arguments. If you disagree, explain why.

 

[otter]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

This is a really harmful generalization. The basics of what makes a solid competitive game go way beyond melee. I'm primarily a marvel player. Being able to control your character and kill your opponent are just basics of game design.

 

[chipndip]

Complaining about the lack of unintentional movement exploits is already just screaming for your point to be shut down. Also, not every game is gonna go as fast as Melee did. Not everyone loves Smash for Melee's scene specifically. Let each entry be its own entry, and if Smash as a franchise is truly worth it, the fans of the franchise should be able to back it. Otherwise, you're all frauds that really just like Melee, not Smash Bros. We already went through this with Brawl, which indeed had flaws. This game addresses a TON of issues from both Melee and Brawl. Can we stop trying to tear down what we have here? It's about time Smash moved forward, anyway.

That's basically what I can say on this, because that's basically what I see you complaining about. Many people didn't like how people could short-hop onto the ledge and gimp people that wanted to recover, so they changed it. Air dodges aren't spammable, and rolls were buffed because of that I'd presume (weaken air game and compensate by buffing ground game). Match times always vary by game, but remember this game supports up to 4 people in one engine, so the blast zones for stages and the knock back from moves has to be balanced for many types of match options so they're still moderately fair and fun from team matches to FFAs to 1v1s, For Glory style. SUPER armor is a mechanic found in many fighting games anyway, and add value to bigger characters while fast characters are obliged to zip around these hazardous attacks, so it makes sense in a game where it's much easier to do that. Sweet spots are supposed to be hard to land or it'd overpower those that have great moves incorporating them (C. Falcon for example, especially since he's a huge combo character).

I will agree that the only ones that should have a god-tier recovery move should be the s. There's a good deal of chars that can take a mile or more off an inch in this game when it comes to recovery distance. >_>

This is a really harmful generalization. The basics of what makes a solid competitive game go way beyond melee. I'm primarily a marvel player. Being able to control your character and kill your opponent are just basics of game design.

I'm sorry but a Marvel player talking about game design is a scary thought. Those games are always imbalanced/buggy/busted. People love them for that "dream match-up" appeal, but I'm over it. I just see it for the buggy mess it is.

 

[Dragoomba]

Can you give us one legitimate complaint which isn't another way of saying "it's not like Melee"?

Are you literally telling me you don't think ****ing movement options are important in any competitive fighting game?

 

[TTTTTsd]

My only complaints have nothing to do with any of this, and the lack of meteor cancelling is a bad thing? Meteor cancelling which devalues the power of meteor smashes and makes all but a few useless? That's a garbage mechanic and it doesn't reward anyone.

My problem is shields are a bit too strong, and so are rolls. I can still punish them but blehhhh. The spotdodge buff was nice though.

 

[Gardex]

I'd just like to say that Falcon's recovery in Melee is ****tier than in Brawl and Smash 4 and that his falcon kick recovery barely helped in that regard

 

[Prawn]

The games been out for a week and everyone is playing on a DS without a real stick and cstick. Give it a little time before you say there's no movement options or this/that is bad?

"Approaches are streamlined, and the player has the choice of Dash attack, grab, and Side+B when they wish to approach. Nothing against those moves, but watching the same progression of "Dash attack -> roll -> Running grab -> repeat until opponent is hit" is beyond stale."

So dash attack, side b and grab are the only approaches in this game? Could've fooled me I've been nairing into cross ups, spacing fairs, empty short hop tilting.


Bad thread.

Edit: Jesus Christ the OP is full of complete nonsense. So in sm4sh you only get invincibility on the ledge once, until you touch the ground on the stage or get hit, meaning getting someone on the edge is good even if you can't traditionally edgehog. And it eliminates planking.

Many recoveries that are hella good are also hella streamlined and can be thwarted with a simple fair.

And did you just say that this game is bad competitively because there's no moonwalking? L oh ****ing l.

Also the "takes forever to kill" argument maybe could have something to do with the metagame developing?

Bad thread is really bad

 

[Blade Knight]

Personally I feel the buffed recoveries are a mixed bag. There is no accidentally getting a KO or losing a stock in Smash 4, it at least it's very rare to happen. This means it's very easy at low and even mid level play for somebody to live for absurd amounts of time.

However, what this does is incentivize players to go off stage and KO their opponents outright. It is very easy to get KO's below 100%, 80%, or even 60% depending on how you play almost universally. Smash 4 is a game for the brave and those willing to play riskily off stage. Seriously, RAR back airs with a lot of characters will knock opponents at angles so bad that unless they're villager they won't come back, and Villager's recovery is super telegraphed in and of itself. This game also has a lot of moves that are good at setting up uncomfortable recovery angles from on stage, such as Captain Falcon's down tilt hitting at that disgusting angle.

Really, Smash 4 is a baby of a game and the meta is way too early in development to judge heavily. We're still discovering new techniques every day, and this is with everybody being artificially held back by the very limited 3DS control scheme. Give it time, it's definitely not going in a campy direction on a macro level from what I've seen at all. Really, I feel basically all 3 of these concerns are solid, but will not be as big of an issue as one might think once people get better.

Smash 4 isn't melee, it isn't brawl, it isn't 64, it is it's own game. It will develop in it's own way and honestly, it's already less campy and homogenized than what Brawl was, with some people trying their hardest to make it that way. Rolls are good in this, but they're much less safe and are pretty telegraphed in this in spite of their speed. I mean if we look at the characters people are considering good right now, none of them have fantastic rolls, and all of them are very aggressive and combo oriented.

 

[Shaya]

You know what? I think I'm against threads made to complain for the sake of it. They aren't really purposeful, although there have been a few good thoughts brought forward here, I can't help but feel this as more of a sensational blog response to the game then something that's going to help push us forward.

Tournament play hasn't been going on for very long, and the extent at which you base your opinions from anything other than a few tidbits of misinformation and a predisposition towards not learning the new movement techniques in a game that aren't from Melee is a little aggravating; as seen by the general response.

Half the posts in here being questionable or worse is also a bad sign.