Data Slicin' and Dicin' - Swordfighter Special move Showcase and Q&A Thread

[Ikenna]

against certain characters like Rosalina and the Pits this makes it the only way you are gimping them

That does make Reversal Slash incredibly viable for collecting interesting/funny replays.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Okay, so the past week is over and the new one starts. If we had this pace in mind we should stick to it. I'll run the RNG for the next move, though I won't comment on it just yet, as the previous move doesn't seem quite finished. It is close. I'll have my say on wednesday.
So the RNG says number 3. That's Blade Flurry.
Keep it going people!

 

[Ikenna]

I am unable to play the game, so I will not talk much about this move. I only know two ways to apply Blade Flurry for practical use:

- When B-Reversing as a mixup
- To cover an opponent's get up option

Can people still shield the last hit in the move at low percentages? How is Blade Flurry against shields especially with the universal shieldstun update?

 

[Antonykun]

Blade Flurry.

Gross
ehh I'll give a write up later

 

[Unknownkid]

Hey guys. Sorry for not be as active in the discussion as I wanted to. Work and Life have been keeping me preoccupy. I will write my thoughts on Reversal Slash and Blurring Blade in due time.

 

[TM 023]

My experiences with Blade Fury here:

• It gives you a horizontal momentum when used in the air and fully charged. Like Marth's Shield Breaker.
• You can catch rolls and even edgeguarding with this, even when not charged it does a decent damage and knockback.
• Can be used with tricks like B-reverses and Wavebounces as a mixup.
• Adds a good shield pressure, and a bit harder to punish when shielded.

I used this special for a few time, so should have more things about it.

 

[GS3K]

Alright, since there hasn't been much discussion in over a week, I guess it should be put on hold until thanksgiving break or something.

 

[Ikenna]

Shall we discuss Power Thrust and its applications?

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Sorry for the long break, but let's just say I had a lot of other things to take care of. I'll run the RNG now: 7. That is the move upB 1, Stone Scabbard/Back in the Stone. (the name is different on PAL or NTSC versions.) I won't state my thoughts yet, I need some time to think about it again. I'll leave Power Thrust for next time because this one seems easier to judge. Merry Christmas, by the way.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Allright, let's reboot this. I live in the PAL region, so I'm going to refer to upB 1 as Back in the Stone.

The general properties of Back in the Stone are that it goes up quite a way vertically, but then forces you back down at its apex. It's a lot like Kirby's and Ike's upB in this respect, but unfortunately worse than theirs. First it's because you don't get a projectile out of it or a massive disjointed hitbox that goes through the stage and claims respect. Secondly you have very little horizontal movement during the move and this is what makes it bad. If you are to far away from the ledge horizontically and are below the edge, you die. There is no way to recover from that with this. If you are above the stage, you're going to need Surging Slash to help you recover.

Your UpB is your recovery move, so having it kill you more than saving you isn't a particularly good thing.
This is mostly why I consider it to be the worst upB Mii sword has, but what about the good parts? Well, one major thing that stands out about this move is that it can spike and hard too. Doing it is really difficult to pull off, but I've seen Trela do it many times before Ryu. You need a good read and it's only the initial hitbox when Mii sword plummets down where the spike hitbox is. You can mostly try it from a ledge trump; they get pushed off, try to recover while you go up and down right as they approach the ledge. It gives the earliest kills outside of gimps for sure and it's the only move Mii sword has which can spike this hard.
The damage is pretty good too, so it's an okay OoS option.

It's still not worth it in my opinion. Mii Swordfighter has many kill moves, more than most. Dair, Chakram, Dsmash, Upb 3 Hero's Spin and sometimes Bair are usually more than good enough to edgeguard with and the spike is nowhere near guaranteed. It's easy to read and tech. I'd really like my upB to be a recovery move before a kill move. If you can get both, that's awesome. (*cough* Hero's Spin cough*)
Then there's the massive competition from the other recoveries and I can pretty much cross this move off my to use list.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

It's been more than a week and so far I've been the only one that has replied to this thread since then. As much as I'd love to move on to Power Thrust, doing so would just mean I would be the only one who contributes to this thread in a meaningful way. Before I can do anything, I need to hear what you all have to say on the subject. It's a discussion, not a blog. I'm fine with waiting another week, but we'll have to keep up the pace if we ever want to come to conclusions. Otherwise this is a bit pointless.

I don't mean to sound pushy. We can change it to a two week discussion cycle per move if we all agree to. But we will have to stick with that decision. Putting off things without saying anything isn't going to put this discussion forward; it's going to stop it.
I don't believe any of us would like that to happen and besides, having a thread that shows off what Mii Swordfighter can do with his special moves so that anyone who doesn't know the character well and can learn him if they want to sounds really cool to me.

If you can't post for a while, please say so. You don't have to give a reason. It's so everyone knows that they can can advance with the schedule without you.

This is some critique I had to put out there so hopefully this will go anywhere.
I won't post here further until I've seen at least two more people state their thoughts on Back to the Stone.
Happy new year too, by the way.

 

[Routa]

I don't know enough about BitS to comment about it, but I have to say you pretty much said everything we currently know about BitS and it's usability. That might be the reason why no one els has commented on it.

Here is the list of moves I will comment on:
Gale Strike
Surging Slash
Power Thrust
(Hero Spin if needed)

 

[Yorsh]

Hey,
I use both back in the stone and power trust when I can, and there is why :

BitS is fun to use, way more than hero spin, so that's why i picked it up in the first place. It's a good vertical recovery, but a terrible horizontal recovery.
It's not too hard to edge guard, but if you miss your edge guard you get spiked, so most people don't risk it.
You can use it to edge guard characters that don't sweet spot very well with their upB (cloud...), just upB from the stage and aim for the ledge. If you are a bit late, it may ledge trump so it's still good.
It's also really good when used after a Dair gimp, because you need to recover vertically, and it forces the opponant to delay his recovery (if he can) or he may gets spiked.
If you hit someone on a platform but don't land on the platfom, you can jab lock him in some cases.
Last but not least, it's an amazing combo breaker. The move gives you invincibility on the beginning of the move (frame 4 i believe, but not sure). If your opponant read it, you may get punished for it, but not as hard as if you failed marth's upB or something like that. I think it's the only way mii sword can escape a combo ?

Now power trust :
I started to use it because I liked chakram way way more than the other sideBs, but using BitS without any other recovery is a terrible idea imo. I tried power trust, and unlike Falcon's downB it's a decent horizontal recovery. Power trust->BitS makes you recover really fast, and don't let your opponant the time to set up and edge guard. Of course, if you eat a down smash at hight%, you are ****ed, but the rest of the time you should be fine. Basically, if you could have recovered with one of the sideBs, you can also recover with powertrust->BitS or powertrust->jump->BitS faster and safer.
Something that most people don't know is that it's a good kill move. Not a strong as strong as Fsmash, but it sends the opponant with a nice horizontal angle, so it can set up an edge guard. You can use it to punish landing, a whiffed attack, or to catch your opponant offguard after you zoned him with chakrams for a while.
Since it deals between 8 to 13%, it will clank or go through pretty much all (if not all) projectiles.
It's also a nice way to mix up your landing if not used to often.

 

[TM 023]

I don't use BitS for a long time, 'cause it offers very little in comparison with the other up B's. Any up b is better then BitS, imo.
ps.: In this post I did an analysis of Power Thrust, but I forgot the actual discussion (Default Up B), lol. I'll post the analysis when we discuss about Power Thrust.

 

[DigitalAtom6]

Hey,
I use both back in the stone and power trust when I can, and there is why :

BitS is fun to use, way more than hero spin, so that's why i picked it up in the first place. It's a good vertical recovery, but a terrible horizontal recovery.
It's not too hard to edge guard, but if you miss your edge guard you get spiked, so most people don't risk it.
You can use it to edge guard characters that don't sweet spot very well with their upB (cloud...), just upB from the stage and aim for the ledge. If you are a bit late, it may ledge trump so it's still good.
It's also really good when used after a Dair gimp, because you need to recover vertically, and it forces the opponant to delay his recovery (if he can) or he may gets spiked.
If you hit someone on a platform but don't land on the platfom, you can jab lock him in some cases.
Last but not least, it's an amazing combo breaker. The move gives you invincibility on the beginning of the move (frame 4 i believe, but not sure). If your opponant read it, you may get punished for it, but not as hard as if you failed marth's upB or something like that. I think it's the only way mii sword can escape a combo ?

Now power trust :
I started to use it because I liked chakram way way more than the other sideBs, but using BitS without any other recovery is a terrible idea imo. I tried power trust, and unlike Falcon's downB it's a decent horizontal recovery. Power trust->BitS makes you recover really fast, and don't let your opponant the time to set up and edge guard. Of course, if you eat a down smash at hight%, you are ****ed, but the rest of the time you should be fine. Basically, if you could have recovered with one of the sideBs, you can also recover with powertrust->BitS or powertrust->jump->BitS faster and safer.
Something that most people don't know is that it's a good kill move. Not a strong as strong as Fsmash, but it sends the opponant with a nice horizontal angle, so it can set up an edge guard. You can use it to punish landing, a whiffed attack, or to catch your opponant offguard after you zoned him with chakrams for a while.
Since it deals between 8 to 13%, it will clank or go through pretty much all (if not all) projectiles.
It's also a nice way to mix up your landing if not used to often.

I tested out that Power Thrust + BitS combination you were talking about. It doesn't work to improve your recovery. If anything, it will ensure your death. I believe I once stated that you should never use this combination and now I remember why. Power Thrust sends you down by about a 30 degree angle diagonally downwards for 2 seconds. The amount of distance you fall while offstage is about as high as BitS goes for the duration of the hitbox. Then there is the lag. You fall so close to the boundary at times after that that even jump + Skyward Slash Dash won't save you, but you have BitS, so you're dead. This is a rubbish combination IMO. One fun thing I did find about BitS is that it can make for some fun suicide kills. I suppose that's only for style when you're up two stocks and your opponent is on their last, because you actually die faster than your opponent by doing it. Kinda funny you fall faster than someone who got spiked hard at high percent. It made me stand by my statement even more: Upb is for recovery, not kills if you can help it. Just use Hero's Spin, especially since it combos with chakram and is just as good of an OoS option.

 

[Yorsh]

I tested out that Power Thrust + BitS combination you were talking about. It doesn't work to improve your recovery. If anything, it will ensure your death. I believe I once stated that you should never use this combination and now I remember why. Power Thrust sends you down by about a 30 degree angle diagonally downwards for 2 seconds. The amount of distance you fall while offstage is about as high as BitS goes for the duration of the hitbox. Then there is the lag. You fall so close to the boundary at times after that that even jump + Skyward Slash Dash won't save you, but you have BitS, so you're dead. This is a rubbish combination IMO. One fun thing I did find about BitS is that it can make for some fun suicide kills. I suppose that's only for style when you're up two stocks and your opponent is on their last, because you actually die faster than your opponent by doing it. Kinda funny you fall faster than someone who got spiked hard at high percent. It made me stand by my statement even more: Upb is for recovery, not kills if you can help it. Just use Hero's Spin, especially since it combos with chakram and is just as good of an OoS option.

I don't know what to say, it works for me. If have my double jump i usually make it back easely and safely. Without double jump it's fine if i'm around the top corner of the blast zone, if i'm below i'm ****ed.
You could recover from the same distance without power trust theoretically. However, In a real game you would get edgeguarded 95% of the time if you can't afford to airdodge or go back a bit to dodge an attack (same with sideBs, if you don't have any margins, it's soooo easy to edge guard). Power trust makes you way harder to edge guard, so it actually makes you able to recover from farther. Power trust+ BitS is still a weak recovery, but it's way better than BitS alone.

 

[TM 023]

So, I was testing this up b 1 (I was bored), the Back in the Stone (BitS), and here's my thoughts:

I tested this up b with a standard mii size and 1111 set (the only set it's allowed in tourneys, unfortunately and it's only this case when you'll use this move).

Any up b need at least two requirements to be good (imo):

• Recovery (obviously): The capability to get back in the stage with not so much difficulty.
• Kill Power / Combo Potential: Yeah, it's pretty self explanatory (but combos need to worth it, cause some specials can combo, but the standard attacks can do better) .

And bro, BitS doesn't have any of this properties (except for the spike part). It goes upwards, like Kirby's and Ike's up b, and spikes in the downfall. If you really want to kill someone with this, try in a ledge trump (good times when Trela used to do this). And about combos, the only combo that I discovered was dthrow + up b in low %s, but we know that dthrow + uair is better.

Okay, BitS doesn't kill/combo at all (I mean, it kills/combo, but they're bad. Pretty bad), but how about the recovery part? Here I go:

To be honest, this move has an amazing vertical distance. And that's it. Yeah, you can move sideways a bit, but the influence is too small. Basically, if you lost your second jump and you're far from the stage, you're dead. And it doesn't sweetspot the ledge while going up, so any water / windbox / cape / whatever will gimp you. And to complete, BitS won't grab the ledge if you're facing backwards. Great.

And that's it. I saw somewhere that BitS has invencibility frames on the startup, but yeah. Like i said before, any up b for Mii Swordfighter is better than BitS. Hero's Spin kills and is an amazing recovery move and an nice OoS option. And Skyward Slash Dash (I think that's the name) doesn't combo / kill but at least is a great recovery move. As you can see, I hate this move for being the up b 1. If BitS were 2 or 3, i'd be fine. And sorry for some english mistakes (if I made some)

 

[DigitalAtom6]

And thus the general consensus on BitS finally looks complete and we can move on. We already know the next one: Power Thrust.

This is another dud for me. Mii Sword lunges forward at a mediocre speed for this kind of move on the ground. Everyone can just shield it and punish that. The damage isn't all that big to begin with, so it's not even worth it as a punish IMO. In the air it lunges diagonally down at a 30 degree angle from the stage. It lasts quite long so you'll travel very far down. If you do it offstage, even Skyward Slash Dash has trouble saving you. And since this is get back to the stage for free bros., it won't be even worth it against most characters in the cast to hit them with it.
So what about onstage in the air? Nothing improves to be honest. You will most likely land with the move which has an animation where Mii Sword has the sword stuck in the ground and pulls it out. It lasts for about half a second, plenty time for your opponent to smash you to oblivion. Overall this move just sucks.

There is one situation where it could be useful, though it's not enough for me to start using it. That situation is when you were launched up in the air and your opponent is trying to juggle you. You could use this move much like Sheik uses her down-B to escape the pressure. If you do it high enough, you won't suffer the endlag of hitting the ground. You could also just time your airdodges well or use the counter instead.
As I said, it's not much and a lot like BitS, the negatives outweigh the positives here.

 

[Routa]

Yeah PT isn't the greatest move, but it has its uses. It goes past shielding foe. If used at the edge it will still "thrust" you forward. This is a good option to keep in mind when edgeguarding (also this makes it relatively safe to use shielding foe at the edge). Also it is good at catching landings. Along with thous it is a ok kill move. No one expects the Egg Roll (by this I mean people tend to forget that this move exist and you get a "element of surprise" advantage). But I do agree it is overall worst out from the 3 specials.

 

[TM 023]

Okay, looks like we'll discuss about Power Thrust (or PT). Here we go!

As a Ganon main, i liked so much this move, 'cause it's very similar to Ganon/Falcon's down b, but worst than theirs, unfortunately. On the ground, this move goes straight forward, has a sweetspot at the tip and it passes through shields. Yeah, it's an okay option to punish rolls and laggy moves. And if you use this move next to a ledge, Mii Swordfighter still goes straight forward even outside of the stage. This is useful for edgeguarding, and you can even score a ko with this.

Okay, but how about Power Thrust in the air?

Well, it's not good. You go diagonally down while doing the move. If you do this in a low height and offstage, probably you'll die. This version is only useful when you are very high in the air, just to return to the ground quickly and with no landing lag.

So, here's my conclusions:

This move only does only two things, basically: punish rolls and kills next to the ledge. Even being a bit fast, it's very, very, very punishable. If you want to punish rolls, we have our dash attack, we have down smash, we have Shuriken of Light, we have Chackram. We don't need another punishing tool with more risk for us than for our opponent. And just look at our other options for down b: A reflector that turns people around and a counter. You're fine with any down b but Power Thrust.

 

[Yorsh]

it's very similar to Ganon/Falcon's down b, but worst than theirs

I don't know about Ganon's, but power trust is better in every way than falcon's (for some reason mii specials that are taken from falcon are always better than the original move). It has less ending lag, has less startup lag, deals more damage, has a bettter angle and with more knockback.

If you want to punish rolls, we have our dash attack, we have down smash, we have Shuriken of Light, we have Chackram. We don't need another punishing tool with more risk for us than for our opponent.

At mid-high%, it's a way better punish tool than dash attack, chakram and shuriken imo. It deals more % and sends your opponant offstage, so you get the stage control + an edge guard opportunity. If you can land a dsmash tho, do it, because it gives you the same things, just better. At low - low mid %, it's not safe on hit and a chakram is better anyway, because you can follow up with a grab or something.
Also it's very safe near the ledge, because you will fall offstage instead of lagging on spot (you loose the stage control tho).

IMO this move looks bad (I also thought it was bad before using it) and the cape looks way better (imo the counter is terrible because lacks of range, against well spaced moves it often fails), but the cape doesn't bring much that mii sword really needs. it's an amazing edge guard tool, but Dair is also amazing, so I don't mind going for Dair instead of going for the cape. Against projectiles, I already have tornado and chakram, so I can win most projectiles wars anyway. On the other hand, Power trust is a kill move that covers a different area than our other kill moves. It creates another danger zone for our opponant to avoid at high%. It also allows to get back to the neutral without getting edge guarded or juggled, which can go from helpfull to very helpfull depending on the rest of your specials.

EDIT : I'm not saying it's better than cape, just better than it looks compared to the cape.

 

[Routa]

Pros:
- Closing up gaps
- Punish tool (rolls and landing)
- Deals decent damage
- Launches enemies in a "lowish" angle
- Safe near the ledge
- Extra kill tool
- Extra landing option

Cons:
- a bit laggy
- Little to no recovery use
- Very small hitbox in air
- Out classed by some moves

PT is good, but is in my eyes a bit too MU dependent in comparison to Counter and "Cape".

 

[TM 023]

I don't know about Ganon's, but power trust is better in every way than falcon's (for some reason mii specials that are taken from falcon are always better than the original move). It has less ending lag, has less startup lag, deals more damage, has a bettter angle and with more knockback.

Well, Falcon Kick sends the opponent in a vertical angle, and it kills earlier because of this. But it's outclassed by Raptor Boost, and that's not the case now.

At mid-high%, it's a way better punish tool than dash attack, chakram and shuriken imo. It deals more % and sends your opponant offstage, so you get the stage control + an edge guard opportunity. If you can land a dsmash tho, do it, because it gives you the same things, just better. At low - low mid %, it's not safe on hit and a chakram is better anyway, because you can follow up with a grab or something.

I agree with you at this point. It's better to punish with Power Thrust at mid-high%, because of its good speed and range. But it's still not worth it for me. If you whiff this move at higher %s, you're in trouble. If the opponent is a bit far from you, Chackram/Shuriken of Light is a better option to confuse your opponent, get some cheap damage and even try to get some follow-ups. It's safer. And look at the other down Bs that we have. Rainbow Slash and Counter are amazing moves and they have more uses than Power Thrust imo. But that's just me. I'm fine with Counter.

 

[TM 023]

So... Did we finish with Power Thrust? The discussion is stopped since February 14, and I'd like to go to the next move.

 

[GS3K]

Didn't mean to but I bungled this due to school getting in the way (and spending waaaaay too much time trying tno fix the OP). I'll try to get this back up to speed within the following week (seeing how technically we should've been done a while back. Maybe bump it to 2 moves to make it go faster). From the looks of it Power Thrust discussion is pretty much done, so if anyone's ready to move on we can.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Well, we could discuss Shuriken and it's applications within certain matchups, right? I could do a specific video on one of my channels detailing it's utility.

 

[GS3K]

Alright, updated the OP. Mostly noted a couple of things that I felt were important/tried to tl;dr.

To speed this up a bit, throwing two moves out there: Shuriken of Light and Hero's Spin

 

[Darklink401]

Hero's Spin is great for killpower due to applications OoS, and with things such as fair 1 > Hero's spin, or jab jab Hero's spin.

<3 it.

Shuriken of light, I find it interesting how at a far range its damage output is pretty insane (doing like 12 or something?) but at close range it doesn't even flinch lol. Could a close-range shuriken be used for jablocking?

 

[GS3K]

^ Close and far away versions of shuriken don't jab lock iirc.

 

[Darklink401]

^ Close and far away versions of shuriken don't jab lock iirc.

I thought close might, but it seems it just has a push effect, which wouldn't jablock. Rip.

 

[HermitHelmet]

Hero's Spin is literally one of (if not THE) best Out of Shield options in the game.

 

[Routa]

Fun fact: Swordspider's Hero's Spin is stronger than Link's.

 

[Darklink401]

Fun fact: Swordspider's Hero's Spin is stronger than Link's.

Dat range tho.

 

[TM 023]

Well, I have played with Hero's Spin (I will be using HS) with Mii Swordfighter, like, 95% of the time, so here's my opinions:

Well, I guess that it's incontestable that HS is one ofthe best special moves that Mii Swordfighter has (offensively). I'll cover first his recovery ability:

• HS has a great vertical distance, but poor horizontal distance, so I recommend saving your double jump and using this next to the stages' walls, although this makes the area above you very vulnerable.

Yeah, this resumes HS as a recovery move. It's not very good tbh. Now, let's give a look on its offensive ability:

• This move uncharged comes at frame 8, bro. Frame 8. This makes Hero's Spin a great out of shield option. And it even kills at high %s.
• In the air, the most of the time the multi-hits won't connect, unfortunately, so its best offensive ability is on the ground.
• Oh yes, and the mixups. Falling fair (only the first 2 hits) > HS and jab 1 > (jab 2) > HS are great.

Yeah, This is Hero's Spin. A great offensive tool. If you are more defensive and you prefer recovery than offense, Skyward Slash Dash is for you.

 

[GS3K]

Updated hero's spin. Shuriken wasn't talked about enough for me to write notes on it. Once it's done, we'll be done with the Neutral B moves

 

[Darklink401]

Shuriken has 1 frame of invulnerability, no? Not very useful up close, but you might be able to use it to power through proejctiles and have shuriken hit them while they're in lag fromshooting their own projectile.

 

[GS3K]

Eh, that one frame of invulnerability doesn't seem too useful to really take advantage of.

 

[Darklink401]

Eh, that one frame of invulnerability doesn't seem too useful to really take advantage of.

Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it xD

 

[Routa]

I would like to add to the Hero's Spin that you must have momentum to begin with if you want to recover with it. So no Chakram anti-edgeguarding or Gale Strike stalling while recovering if you use Hero's Spin. It is also very weak to stomps. In general it is decent recovery move. It's OoS usability makes it a great move.

 

[Ryuphoton]

I personally use shuriken as my neutral B of choice for the fact that it zones really well, and over range it does good shield damage. Up close it's pretty garbage, though. So overall I use it as a long range approach or a zoning tool, but this move is swappable if you have chakram as your side-b.