Sigma Busters: Official Discussion Thread

[Kirbeh]

Hey Kirbeh how did you like the ideas I sent you, we can chat over discord if you want?

Not tonight, closing shift. If you're online tomorrow afternoon I should be out late afternoon/early evening.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Not tonight, closing shift. If you're online tomorrow afternoon I should be out late afternoon/early evening.

I will be around at that time, we can talk then, hopefully we can do that.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I think my priorities right now is working on the characters and stages first then the UI, since I'm more familiar with the former than the latter.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Kirbeh I am going to experiment on particle effects to make trails that follow the player. My concept was that each character has a unique particle trait, such as Aremi having a fiery trail, Weevle a bloody mist trail, etc etc. The idea was that on low percents the trait is short in length and wide in width, while the opposite occurs when you reach higher percents, sort of my stand-in for percents becoming more red as you rack up damage. How does that sound to you?

 

[Kirbeh]

Kirbeh I am going to experiment on particle effects to make trails that follow the player. My concept was that each character has a unique particle trait, such as Aremi having a fiery trail, Weevle a bloody mist trail, etc etc. The idea was that on low percents the trait is short in length and wide in width, while the opposite occurs when you reach higher percents, sort of my stand-in for percents becoming more red as you rack up damage. How does that sound to you?

I'd suggest not having the trails appear at all until they start hitting those higher percentages. Make them into a visual cue of "watch out, you're at kill percent"

 

[Glubbfubb]

I'd suggest not having the trails appear at all until they start hitting those higher percentages. Make them into a visual cue of "watch out, you're at kill percent"

Yeah maybe have them appear when you either sustain a strong hit, or at high percents in general.

Also how's the sprites going, we can continue the chat over Discord if you want.

 

[Kirbeh]

Yeah maybe have them appear when you either sustain a strong hit, or at high percents in general.

Also how's the sprites going, we can continue the chat over Discord if you want.

Like I mentioned on Discord, I haven't really worked on the sprites for almost a week now.

And right now I'm still at work, just on lunch break, so I won't be online tonight. Tomorrow night I should have a little free time to draw and discuss things.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Like I mentioned on Discord, I haven't really worked on the sprites for almost a week now.

And right now I'm still at work, just on lunch break, so I won't be online tonight. Tomorrow night I should have a little free time to draw and discuss things.

That's cool, im patient on that front, I just wanted to some sprites to show some physical process to the server, since just telling what I'm doing can only do so much.

 

[Glubbfubb]

For the initial menus, since I have 4 main options to choose from (Play, Options, Records, and Quit) I am picturing the menus to appear as a wheel, and you tilt the stick in the specified direction, this will lead to its own wheels, such as Play giving you the various game modes of the game, Records showing records, etc, etc. I think this future tech aesthetic could compliment the planned appearance of the character select.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Kirbeh did we ever decide on what to name the galaxy this game takes place in? We can discuss a potential name over Discord.

 

[FlexTape467]

Can I give some input on the galaxy name? Because imo it should just be the milky way galaxy in the far future.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Can I give some input on the galaxy name? Because imo it should just be the milky way galaxy in the far future.

I kinda prefer we don't do that, but a good suggestion anyway.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Spoiler: Photos Concept

Name - Photos
Gender - Male
Species - Quason
Origin - Photos can be best described as having a post-life crisis. His species is the Quason, a race of pure energy beings who are said to be the ghosts of dead stars, and are known for their highly erratic lifespans. Some live only a few months, while others live centuries, and as such made themselves secluded hermits, with no concept of companionship, waiting to fizzle into stardust and become new stars somewhere in the galaxy. Photos feels like his life, no matter how long or short it is, is worth living, and wants to a find a way to find some sort of legacy people can look up to instead of dying in obscurity. His opportunity comes when the Centauri 500, a great cosmic grand prix, begins—a full lap around the galaxy for eternal glory and adoration. Faster than the speed of light, Photos decides to take such a grand tour in order to obtain some sort of companionship.
Appearance -

Archetype - Rushdown
Gimmick - None
Intended Strengths -

• Fastest speed in the game, his running is unparalleled on the ground.
• His attacks have impeccable frame data, and great combo potential.
• Decent recovery options make him have decent survivability.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Lacks raw damage to kill, needing to rack up damage with combos to win.
• He has the worst traction in the game, meaning he can have trouble with accurate movements.
• Heavy physics can make him awkward to control due to falling like a rock.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - A+
Running Speed - A+
Traction - E-
Jump Height - B+
Air Acceleration - B-
Fall Speed - A-
Weight - C-

Ground Moves:
Jab - Lightspeed Kicks - A flurry of kicks performed in a rapid-fire fashion, among the fastest jabs in the game with high-end lag, but lacking in power and knockback.
Forward Tilt - Radiant Spinner - A strong, more forceful, roundhouse kick is performed, with a strong sweetspot on the heel, a good combo ender.
Up Tilt - Wheel Kick - Photos kicks upwards, kicking in the shape of a wheel, hitting three times in a multi-hit. This is a good combo tool due to juggling it enables, though your defenseless from behind when using this move.
Down Tilt - Grinding Slide - A sliding kick with Photos' skates kicking up loose dirt, good for being low profile against enemy attacks, though the high end-lag can prove to be risky at times.
Back Tilt - Barrel Roll - A full 360 degree kick is performed, hitting both sides of Photos. The Back Tilt is unique as it can be used while running, giving him a boost of speed. This comes at the cost of weak damage and knockback unless being hit by the heel.
Dash Attack - Trick Kick - Photos performs a trick while spinning, he will do one of 3 poses while kicking, each with their own hitbox values. There is a link between damage and knockback, with one pose dealing high damage but low knockback, while another deals the opposite effect; the other is in between.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Peel Out - Revving one of his skates, Photos performs a potent upwards axe-kick, good for sending foes upwards.
Up Charge Orbiting Flip - Flipping into a loop, both of Photos' skates become fast bludgeoning weapons, before ending with a cool handstand that is as stylish as it is laggy.
Down Charge - Skid Out - Revving up his skates, Photos performs a rough-looking breakdancing kick. This attack has some kill power to it, making it a good kill move.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Twin Cycles - A pair of kicks, one after another, the first dealing decent damage and the second launching the target.
Forward Air - Great Hawk Kick - A flying jump kick, Photos' most powerful move due to its high kill power, but a very risky move as missing the move is extremely laggy.
Up Air - Blade Chop - An upwards scissors kick is performed, with a nice sweetspot in the attack's center.
Down Air - Missile Star - A drilling kick downwards, the force speeding up Photos' descent onto the ground.
Back Air - Sidechopper - A sideways heel kick from behind, has some decent power, but also some notable lag as well.

Grabs:
Pummel - Electro Knee - As his knee is exposed energy, the opponent gets shocked with electricity during this knee jab.
Forward Throw - Curb-stomp - A stomp that sends foes forward in a downward angle, the force flying them off the floor.
Down Throw - Bullet Kicks - Five kicks are performed, one after another, the sheer speed of the move makes it a very fast throw, good for combos. The damage is on the lower end to balance out the sheer speed involved.
Back Throw - Hook Kick - Using his skates as hooks, Photos tosses the foe around himself and to his back, all the while turning around in the end to adjust to the new direction.
Up Throw - Quasar Kick - A vertical kick with such force it can send foes flying, Photos' sole kills throw, so its very useful for him.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Power Parkour - Photos charges up to perform a flip either upwards or sidewards, good for mobility and recovery purposes. After the flip you can pressed the special button to perform a kick in the opposite direction of the flip, though it sends him into free-fall afterward.

• Neutral Hyper - Starside Flip - A flip straight upwards, good for vertical recovery and escaping certain attacks, you can then press the special button downwards to perform a powerful stomp, or by itself to perform a triple kick to slow your descent.

Side Special - Lightspeed Flash - As a being of pure energy, Photos moves his particles at such a speed that it looks like he is warping from one area to the next, when in realty he is performing a hypersonic tackle with some decent power.

• Side Hyper - Lightspeed Luster - The dash is now slightly longer and segmented into two independently aimed tackles, good for better control and recovery.

Down Special - Grind Kick - At first it looks like a standard downwards kick, however when the kick hits the ground, Photos will grind on the ground with a damaging slide. His current momentum determines the length he goes with his slide. He can use this move to slide on semisolids like grind rails, which is good for mobility.

• Down Hyper - Nova Kick - While the kick is shorter, it is MUCH more powerful, being a kill move at high percents when you hit during the middle of the attack.

Up Special - Cosmic Hurricane - A hurricane kick resembling a lariat, pressing the special button will raise the flurry's vertical height but truncate the horizontal distance traveled. Balance must be maintained if you want a safe recovery back onto the stage, as it will send Photos into free-fall afterward.

• Up Hyper - Comet Rising - A more reliable recovery tool with Photos performing an enhanced hurricane kick, starting horizontally before rising upwards in an arc, though the move is unable to be guided now, making it more linear as a recovery tool.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Dizzying Flash - Using potent lightspeed travel, Photos dashes forward and spins the opponent, confusing them and leaving them open for combos.
Level 2 - Photon Storm - Using the powers of stars, Photos launches a projectile that rises upwards and travels across the sky, striking bolts of cosmic electricity to the ground, a good spacing tool and Photos' sole projectile.
Level 3 - Eclipse Hurricane - A hurricane kick of cosmic proportions, if all hits manage to connect, which can be helped by taking advantage of the wind box the attack creates, then you can deal a devastating final blow.

New fighter concept for something I have been thinking of for a while. Kirbeh check it out when you can.

Kirbeh I want your stance on this change to Photos' Side Special. I think it would be cool if instead of a straight-up clone of Falco Phantasm, he would instead charge for a tackle that he could angle, and if he would collide with the floor he would ricochet and have the attack be stronger. This was sorta inspired by the Cyan Laser color power from Sonic Colors, which I think fits a character like him. We can discuss this and other details over Discord if you want.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Kirbeh do you have any major updates, I've been improving some controls to better suite the physics of the game, we can chat about updates over Discord if you want.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Spoiler: Kip's Kit (Unfinished)

Name - Kip
Gender - Female
Species - Ocram
Origin - Kip is an odd case of being a big fish in a small pond, off world she has the capabilities on par or exceeding some of the strongest species in the galaxy, but on her homeworld of Urakai she is nothing spectacular, even considered pathetic to some. While she is happy to be part of the whole "kill someone stronger than you to be leader" thing, she just doesn't have the raw power of the rest of her species. For someone with enhanced strength, skin as hard as stone, and wily speed, that must hit Kip pretty hard. She is pretty much on the lowest end of the pecking order, not really having any opportunities to vie for power with the various warring clans of her planet. Maybe if there is a power vacuum she could have some recognition for her unique traits, maybe even power of her own, but she finds that event pretty unlikely.
Appearance - The Ocram are a species that take after the portrayals of traditional, Tolkein-esc orcs and goblins, in particular the Uruk-hai's portrayal from Middle Earth Shadow of War. Kip is rather scrawny in appearance, being the same size and age group as Weevle, which is rather in stark contrast with her actually good physical traits. Her skin is faintly olive with shades of grayish greens, and interlocking between her eyes is a stripe of black face paint. When off duty, Kip usually is found wearing a crimson-color casual dress and has short black-blue hair, with pointed ears, a pair of small tusks jutting from her mouth, and a small horn growing out of her forehead, which will become a great pair of horns when she is an adult. In battle, she dons a copper armor over her attire for protection and has a copper mask modeled after a combination of a bear and tiger, with a pair of sharp horns jutting from the helmet, the large size of the helmet makes her voice sound much deeper, adding to her attempted but ultimately failed intimidation factor. Her eyes have a notable pinkish tint to them, a trait shared by her species, and texture-wise, her skin has faint scales, showcasing her hidden durability. She wields a special mace in combat that she can either swing like a club or flail around by the mace's chain.

Archetype -
Gimmick - (If Applicable)
Intended Strengths -

• With balanced stats all around, she has both solid mobility, speed, and weight to compliment her effective kit.
• Potential for trapping, as the various angles her specials encompass can leave the opponent cornered.
• She is a character easy to pick up and play, good for beginners with a lot of potential for mastery.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Average stats leave her with some issues with KOing opponents.
• Her kit is effective in multiple situations, but is also quite laggy.
• As she has average stats all around, she can be seen as a jack-of-all traits, master of none.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed - B-
Traction - A
Jump Height - B-
Air Acceleration - B-
Fall Speed - C
Weight - B-

Ground Moves:
Jab - Flail - A trio of mace swings, ending with an overhead slam that deals good damage.
Forward Tilt - Wide Swing - A wide mace swing that offers more horizontal range in exchange for vertical range compared to the jab. The swing is also able to negate weak projectiles.
Up Tilt -
Down Tilt -
Back Tilt -
Dash Attack -

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge -
Up Charge -
Down Charge -

Aerials:
Neutral Air -
Forward Air -
Up Air -
Down Air -
Back Air -

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw -
Down Throw -
Back Throw -
Up Throw -

Specials:
Neutral Special - Chained Flail - A more heavy projectile, not having the longest range or fasted speed, but a deals a powerful hit when it connects. Charge up the move to let it travel back and forth across a longer distance, the longer the travel, the more damage it deals. When it comes back it deals a much weaker hit with small knock back, but in some scenarios it can lead into combos.

• Neutral Hyper - Bouncing Iron - The mace's ball is twice as big and now bounces in an arc. Charge the move to let it be tossed higher, therefore allowing it to bounce more times.

Side Special - Throwing Knives - Throwing a sharp shard of metal, Kip tosses one of the fastest projectiles in the game. This projectile also has the unique trait of sticking to opponents, and successive knives will deal increased damage and hitstun.

• Side Hyper - Knife Curve - A curved arch of long throwing knives will get shot out, each deals as much damage as a max damage base Throwing Knife and will cover a wider area due to one knife being shot in 5 different angles.

Down Special - Iron Head - A potent headbutt, the angle Kip bonks her head with is both a potent spike and a move instantly capable of breaking shields. It even has super-armor, which combined with the attack's quick speed makes it one of her most safe options, just brought down by its short range.

• Down Hyper - Beast Charge - Kip rams into the opponent with her helmet's large horns, glowing hot orange, if she snags her opponent with her helmet's horns she will fling them straight upwards.

Up Special - Eagle Rider - Calling an Urukai Eagle, a black reptilian raptor, Kip hangs on to recover. A very flexible recovery move since you can press the Special button at any time to flap continuously, all the while you can use the Neutral button to perform a slashing attack. However, Kip is left vulnerable as any strong attack can scare away the bird, meaning you have to use the slash attack as a get off me tool. Be mindful of stamina too, as if used for too long the eagle will get tired and fly away, causing Kip to fall.

• Up Hyper - Eagle Leap - A rarer Urukai Warbird appears to give Kip a lift. This bird has increased speed and power compared to the Urukai Eagle, making it a stark improvement for Kip's recovery.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Brutal Pummel - Kip dives forward and grabs the opponent, before she pummels them into submission. Rapidly tap the special button to punch continuously until the opponent pushed her off.
Level 2 - Barrel Bomb - Kip heaves a giant explosive barrel in an arc, which then crashes down and explodes, a powerful but hard to aim move that gives great reward.
Level 3 - Ogre Rush - Calling the aid of an Ocram Ogre, Kip rides on its back as it swings wildly with its club, at any time Kip can jump off and allow the massive Ocram to push the foe off the stage.

Hey Kirbeh I've been trying to make this kit for a few days, but I have been getting some trouble with making it. I noticed we don't have any jack-of-all trades characters aside from Aremi, so I was trying to conceptualize an idea for one while also making someone to better work with the story mode I had in mind. I have the specials for her, but can't think of good neutrals and grabs, so some input would be nice. We can discuss this matter over discord if you want.

 

[Kirbeh]

Spoiler: Kip's Kit (Unfinished)

Name - Kip
Gender - Female
Species - Ocram
Origin - Kip is an odd case of being a big fish in a small pond, off world she has the capabilities on par or exceeding some of the strongest species in the galaxy, but on her homeworld of Urakai she is nothing spectacular, even considered pathetic to some. While she is happy to be part of the whole "kill someone stronger than you to be leader" thing, she just doesn't have the raw power of the rest of her species. For someone with enhanced strength, skin as hard as stone, and wily speed, that must hit Kip pretty hard. She is pretty much on the lowest end of the pecking order, not really having any opportunities to vie for power with the various warring clans of her planet. Maybe if there is a power vacuum she could have some recognition for her unique traits, maybe even power of her own, but she finds that event pretty unlikely.
Appearance - The Ocram are a species that take after the portrayals of traditional, Tolkein-esc orcs and goblins, in particular the Uruk-hai's portrayal from Middle Earth Shadow of War. Kip is rather scrawny in appearance, being the same size and age group as Weevle, which is rather in stark contrast with her actually good physical traits. Her skin is faintly olive with shades of grayish greens, and interlocking between her eyes is a stripe of black face paint. When off duty, Kip usually is found wearing a crimson-color casual dress and has short black-blue hair, with pointed ears, a pair of small tusks jutting from her mouth, and a small horn growing out of her forehead, which will become a great pair of horns when she is an adult. In battle, she dons a copper armor over her attire for protection and has a copper mask modeled after a combination of a bear and tiger, with a pair of sharp horns jutting from the helmet, the large size of the helmet makes her voice sound much deeper, adding to her attempted but ultimately failed intimidation factor. Her eyes have a notable pinkish tint to them, a trait shared by her species, and texture-wise, her skin has faint scales, showcasing her hidden durability. She wields a special mace in combat that she can either swing like a club or flail around by the mace's chain.

Archetype -
Gimmick - (If Applicable)
Intended Strengths -

• With balanced stats all around, she has both solid mobility, speed, and weight to compliment her effective kit.
• Potential for trapping, as the various angles her specials encompass can leave the opponent cornered.
• She is a character easy to pick up and play, good for beginners with a lot of potential for mastery.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Average stats leave her with some issues with KOing opponents.
• Her kit is effective in multiple situations, but is also quite laggy.
• As she has average stats all around, she can be seen as a jack-of-all traits, master of none.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed - B-
Traction - A
Jump Height - B-
Air Acceleration - B-
Fall Speed - C
Weight - B-

Ground Moves:
Jab - Flail - A trio of mace swings, ending with an overhead slam that deals good damage.
Forward Tilt - Wide Swing - A wide mace swing that offers more horizontal range in exchange for vertical range compared to the jab. The swing is also able to negate weak projectiles.
Up Tilt -
Down Tilt -
Back Tilt -
Dash Attack -

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge -
Up Charge -
Down Charge -

Aerials:
Neutral Air -
Forward Air -
Up Air -
Down Air -
Back Air -

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw -
Down Throw -
Back Throw -
Up Throw -

Specials:
Neutral Special - Chained Flail - A more heavy projectile, not having the longest range or fasted speed, but a deals a powerful hit when it connects. Charge up the move to let it travel back and forth across a longer distance, the longer the travel, the more damage it deals. When it comes back it deals a much weaker hit with small knock back, but in some scenarios it can lead into combos.

• Neutral Hyper - Bouncing Iron - The mace's ball is twice as big and now bounces in an arc. Charge the move to let it be tossed higher, therefore allowing it to bounce more times.

Side Special - Throwing Knives - Throwing a sharp shard of metal, Kip tosses one of the fastest projectiles in the game. This projectile also has the unique trait of sticking to opponents, and successive knives will deal increased damage and hitstun.

• Side Hyper - Knife Curve - A curved arch of long throwing knives will get shot out, each deals as much damage as a max damage base Throwing Knife and will cover a wider area due to one knife being shot in 5 different angles.

Down Special - Iron Head - A potent headbutt, the angle Kip bonks her head with is both a potent spike and a move instantly capable of breaking shields. It even has super-armor, which combined with the attack's quick speed makes it one of her most safe options, just brought down by its short range.

• Down Hyper - Beast Charge - Kip rams into the opponent with her helmet's large horns, glowing hot orange, if she snags her opponent with her helmet's horns she will fling them straight upwards.

Up Special - Eagle Rider - Calling an Urukai Eagle, a black reptilian raptor, Kip hangs on to recover. A very flexible recovery move since you can press the Special button at any time to flap continuously, all the while you can use the Neutral button to perform a slashing attack. However, Kip is left vulnerable as any strong attack can scare away the bird, meaning you have to use the slash attack as a get off me tool. Be mindful of stamina too, as if used for too long the eagle will get tired and fly away, causing Kip to fall.

• Up Hyper - Eagle Leap - A rarer Urukai Warbird appears to give Kip a lift. This bird has increased speed and power compared to the Urukai Eagle, making it a stark improvement for Kip's recovery.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Brutal Pummel - Kip dives forward and grabs the opponent, before she pummels them into submission. Rapidly tap the special button to punch continuously until the opponent pushed her off.
Level 2 - Barrel Bomb - Kip heaves a giant explosive barrel in an arc, which then crashes down and explodes, a powerful but hard to aim move that gives great reward.
Level 3 - Ogre Rush - Calling the aid of an Ocram Ogre, Kip rides on its back as it swings wildly with its club, at any time Kip can jump off and allow the massive Ocram to push the foe off the stage.

Hey Kirbeh I've been trying to make this kit for a few days, but I have been getting some trouble with making it. I noticed we don't have any jack-of-all trades characters aside from Aremi, so I was trying to conceptualize an idea for one while also making someone to better work with the story mode I had in mind. I have the specials for her, but can't think of good neutrals and grabs, so some input would be nice. We can discuss this matter over discord if you want.

Honestly, based on the moves you have so far, she strikes me as more of a mid range spacer/zoner. The weapon of choice gives her range comparable to a swordie and she's got two fairly unique and strong projectiles that feel like they'd be the central focus of her game plan.

 

[Kirbeh]

I'll also add that in combination with her small size, the keep away plan makes even more sense.

In regards to story/stats, I get that the idea here is that she comes from a pretty powerful species while among them being "average," but if she's only average among her species while being incredibly strong compared to other life forms in the universe shouldn't she actually be pretty strong/broken compared to the rest of the cast?

 

[Glubbfubb]

The thing with being below average by the standards of her species despite her species being quite strong compared to other species is that it allows her to be more approachable compared to her fellow Ocrams, with the help of Weevle and the gang she can gain more respect to her people and therefore convince the rest of said people to fight with them.

As for her moveset, since she has a unique weapon, I don't know how one could use that weapon for neutrals and aerials. I image her chain let's her have a tether grab, and being that it's a chain being used to choke the opponent she will among the strongest pummels in the game, but her throws are surprsengly weak knockback wise, meaning to meaning to her grabs are use to rack up damage quickly, a unique take on throws imo.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Honestly, been looking at the rolling mechanic of SNK vs Capcom, and I feel like for a game like this, taking inspiration from that mechanic would actually sort of work. Would you agree, Kirbeh . I feel being able to cancel a roll into an attack while keeping the dodge frames would be a cool thing to implement, while I can also the mechanic of turning around if you roll and then press the opposite direction while rolling. Considering there is still the stamina system you need to worry about, it can't be spammed, meaning there is some flaws to using this maneuver. Would that be a cool idea to implement?

 

[Kirbeh]

Honestly, been looking at the rolling mechanic of SNK vs Capcom, and I feel like for a game like this, taking inspiration from that mechanic would actually sort of work. Would you agree, Kirbeh . I feel being able to cancel a roll into an attack while keeping the dodge frames would be a cool thing to implement, while I can also the mechanic of turning around if you roll and then press the opposite direction while rolling. Considering there is still the stamina system you need to worry about, it can't be spammed, meaning there is some flaws to using this maneuver. Would that be a cool idea to implement?

You mean like, CvS2 roll canceling? That's more of an exploit than an intended mechanic. That and it's pretty divisive since it allows for invincible special moves. Even with a stamina system, it could still wind up pretty volatile if not balanced very carefully. Even then it's inherently an incredibly strong tool, so I think you'd need to add some other drawback.

Also, if you can carry i-frames from a roll to make your approach invincible, then that makes Hyper Specials a lot less viable compared to a roll canceled special.

 

[Glubbfubb]

You mean like, CvS2 roll canceling? That's more of an exploit than an intended mechanic. That and it's pretty divisive since it allows for invincible special moves. Even with a stamina system, it could still wind up pretty volatile if not balanced very carefully. Even then it's inherently an incredibly strong tool, so I think you'd need to add some other drawback.

Also, if you can carry i-frames from a roll to make your approach invincible, then that makes Hyper Specials a lot less viable compared to a roll canceled special.

Good point, just an idea, also glad your here, what's your status like?

 

[Glubbfubb]

You mean like, CvS2 roll canceling? That's more of an exploit than an intended mechanic. That and it's pretty divisive since it allows for invincible special moves. Even with a stamina system, it could still wind up pretty volatile if not balanced very carefully. Even then it's inherently an incredibly strong tool, so I think you'd need to add some other drawback.

Also, if you can carry i-frames from a roll to make your approach invincible, then that makes Hyper Specials a lot less viable compared to a roll canceled special.

I was going to still implement a mechanic with rolling where tilting the stick to the opposite direction while rolling will have the character end the roll while turned around, allowing for easy pivoting.

 

[Kirbeh]

Good point, just an idea, also glad your here, what's your status like?

One more week of weird scheduling and easing into the new position. I should finally return to having some free time for SB during the 2nd week of September.

 

[Glubbfubb]

One more week of weird scheduling and easing into the new position. I should finally return to having some free time for SB during the 2nd week of September.

That's cool to know, I just started my next school, so I just work here and there on the game. I am attempting to work on the stamina system for the game, so a major mechanic.

Hey I have a question, what's your preferred way of referring pop culture, like I want to include a bunch of references but in a nice subtle way, any ideas?

 

[FlexTape467]

I think I have ideas on how to do that but I'd like an example of a game that does that well bc idk you really mean by that.
Although one thing I can say for certain is that you probably shouldn't jam them into voice lines (unless there's a good reason or you can do it well/subtly). You're probably better off putting them in descriptions/flavor text.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Kirbeh been thinking of Vespa and how much she has changed from her core concept. I feel for a bee-based race, the whole thing with her producing a special solution to allow her species to grow sounds odd in retrospect. However, there is an animal where that would make perfect sense for a character like her... Cicadas. Cicadas are insects that burrow in the ground each generation and dig out en mass in massive swarms. If there were a sentient species with this trait, one individual might stand behind to be the caretaker to these inert beings. Vespa would be such a caretaker, the queen of the dormant race and the one looking after and nourishing them to grow during their hibernation phase. To stick to her large, girthy physice, alongside her gimmick of being strong in the front weak in the back, Cicadas are also known for their hard shells, so I imagine Vespa's large girth to be covered in a thick carapace, making her quite durable despite her massive physice. Would that be a good idea to base a rework on, I know it's an enormous rework idea but it could work with the changes we are making to her.

 

[Kirbeh]

Kirbeh been thinking of Vespa and how much she has changed from her core concept. I feel for a bee-based race, the whole thing with her producing a special solution to allow her species to grow sounds odd in retrospect. However, there is an animal where that would make perfect sense for a character like her... Cicadas. Cicadas are insects that burrow in the ground each generation and dig out en mass in massive swarms. If there were a sentient species with this trait, one individual might stand behind to be the caretaker to these inert beings. Vespa would be such a caretaker, the queen of the dormant race and the one looking after and nourishing them to grow during their hibernation phase. To stick to her large, girthy physice, alongside her gimmick of being strong in the front weak in the back, Cicadas are also known for their hard shells, so I imagine Vespa's large girth to be covered in a thick carapace, making her quite durable despite her massive physice. Would that be a good idea to base a rework on, I know it's an enormous rework idea but it could work with the changes we are making to her.

I feel like you're better off making the two concepts separate characters at that point.

Vespa as she is now is a big round bee/ honey pot ant hybrid. She'd need a significant redesign to add a carapace and design elements from cicadas.

I do think you could probably drop the Bowser shell style mechanic from Vespa and apply it to this new concept.

That also gives you more wiggle room for what else you want to do with them. Given the emphasis on the protective shell/carapace mechanic, I think you could also look into potentially mixing the cicada with some beetle species.

Perhaps you could weave both story concepts together as well to create a dynamic between the two races. Queens of symbiotic neighboring kingdoms/colonies. The cicadas provide the bulk of soldiers to protect both colonies, with the bees focusing on producing honey to feed the colonies and care for the young.

 

[Glubbfubb]

I feel like you're better off making the two concepts separate characters at that point.

Vespa as she is now is a big round bee/ honey pot ant hybrid. She'd need a significant redesign to add a carapace and design elements from cicadas.

I do think you could probably drop the Bowser shell style mechanic from Vespa and apply it to this new concept.

That also gives you more wiggle room for what else you want to do with them. Given the emphasis on the protective shell/carapace mechanic, I think you could also look into potentially mixing the cicada with some beetle species.

Perhaps you could weave both story concepts together as well to create a dynamic between the two races. Queens of symbiotic neighboring kingdoms/colonies. The cicadas provide the bulk of soldiers to protect both colonies, with the bees focusing on producing honey to feed the colonies and care for the young.

Hmm, maybe a queen of the bee kingdom and king of the cicada kingdom situation, I like that

 

[Kirbeh]

Hmm, maybe a queen of the bee kingdom and king of the cicada kingdom situation, I like that

If you're good with a king cicada/beetle hybrid, I could start looking into some horned beetles to use for the design.

 

[Glubbfubb]

If you're good with a king cicada/beetle hybrid, I could start looking into some horned beetles to use for the design.

Maybe, just an idea, I am up to a complete rework of Vespa as well, since her original concept has strayed a bit from her initial pitch as queen bee sumo, I just suggested the cicada idea since her current role would synergize better if her species had traits of that animal. If I were to have a beetle-inspired character, I wanted to save that concept since a DLC idea was a beetle character based on tokusatsu characters from Super Sentai/Power Rangers and Kamen Rider with a whole stance changer system between a beam katana and laser rifle.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Getting back to work on the game today after a brief break Kirbeh , may also rework Vespa's kit if I have time.

 

[Kirbeh]

Getting back to work on the game today after a brief break Kirbeh , may also rework Vespa's kit if I have time.

What's the preferred plan for Vespa btw? Another redesign or are you holding off on the burrowing cicada idea?

 

[Glubbfubb]

What's the preferred plan for Vespa btw? Another redesign or are you holding off on the burrowing cicada idea?

TBH I'm still considering her rework, I feel a cicada would be more fitting for her role, being a caretaker for a whole race of hibernating insects, plus her earth-based abilities fits with the cicada more than a wasp/bee.

 

[Kirbeh]

TBH I'm still considering her rework, I feel a cicada would be more fitting for her role, being a caretaker for a whole race of hibernating insects, plus her earth-based abilities fits with the cicada more than a wasp/bee.

It's been a while since I looked at her kit. Did she even have all that much to do with earth based abilities? If I recall correctly she just had 2-3 moves with the bury effect.

That said, if you do intend on going for the cicada angle, I do think a greater emphasis could be placed on earth related powers/abilities.

I would have to ask though, whether a move where Vespa herself burrows underground is something you'd have in mind. Also, whether or not this redesign is intended to be just a couple of things or a more involved, complete overhaul.

 

[Glubbfubb]

It's been a while since I looked at her kit. Did she even have all that much to do with earth based abilities? If I recall correctly she just had 2-3 moves with the bury effect.

That said, if you do intend on going for the cicada angle, I do think a greater emphasis could be placed on earth related powers/abilities.

I would have to ask though, whether a move where Vespa herself burrows underground is something you'd have in mind. Also, whether or not this redesign is intended to be just a couple of things or a more involved, complete overhaul.

Spoiler: Vespa's Kit

Name - Vespa
Gender - Female
Species - Apidon Hornet
Origin - Vespa is not some slovenly despot or uncaring tyrant, she self-describes herself as a diplomat and kindly monarch. Born to be the ruler of the Apidon, a planet noted for their fertility, Vespa is not technically the mother of all her subjects, however, she produces a special honey-like substance called Ambrosium that fertilizes the eggs of her people, creating a new generation. Such a process is energy consuming and so Vespa requires the most nutritious food in order to produce more Ambrosium, often coming from the large herbivores populating the planet. Currently, its winter, a time when all the herbivores are hibernating, so the colony has formed a stockpile of meat for them to feed on... Or that would be the case if a raid of G'nat pirates stole the meat to feed their blood cravings. Lacking food of their own and the methods of making a new generation, Vespa takes it onto herself to... diplomatically talk to the G'nats on the Double Sigma, even if it means she has to pull her weight around.

Appearance - Vespa is overtly based off both Sumo Wrestlers and Asian Giant Hornets. She has a massively rotund body with a pronounced gut, and muscular arms and thighs with a color scheme comprising earthy oranges and deep blacks. Around her waistline is a series of orbs resembling a championship belt, but in actuality, they are glands that produce Ambrosium. On her head in a crown indicating her royalty, and she has embroidered black rubber gloves and boots. She wears a cape-like cloak that has some ornate trimming, with the logo of her planet's flag on her backside. She has large, black, compound eyes, though they are gentle-looking, to emphasize the fact she is also a kindly ruler. She usually has a small mouth, but when hungry grows into a multi-fanged maw or serrated teeth, though she controls herself in combat.

Archetype - Bruiser/Grappler
Gimmick - Large and In Charge

• Vespa's massive size and weight, combined with her being in a defensive pose most of the time means she takes reduced knockback and damage from the front, but more damage when attacked from behind. She is also immune to tripping from the front. Some attacks also give her minor armor when attacked from the front.

Intended Strengths -

• A character designed with impeccably strong defense in the front, allowing Vespa to deal some massive damage, espeically when mixed with her super armor.
• Excellent ground speed for her size and weight, letting her run great distances.
• While lacking in range, Vespa's attacks tend to be high in power or can produce secondary effects like burying and tripping.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Her gimmick can cause some harm to her as well, as a mobile opponent can go over her defenses and attack her weak points.
• Attacks, while strong, lack range, and her Back Air and Tilts are legitimately the worst in the game.
• Vespa has subpar aerial stats.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed - B+
Traction - B+
Jump Height - C-
Air Acceleration - C-
Fall Speed - B-
Weight - A+

Ground Moves:
Jab - Palm Strike - A strike from the palm, a strong singular jab with good speed but very short range.
Forward Tilt - Twin Strike - Vespa makes a forceful twin palm strike, dealing more damage but being slower than the jab.
Up Tilt - Upwards Palm - A palm strike from above, quick and easy to use, good for juggling combos.
Down Tilt - Leg Sweep - A leg sweep is performed, having a chance to trip the opponet if Vespa hits with her heel.
Back Tilt - Heel Slap - Vespa awkwardly attacks with her heel backwards, laggy and weak, so not a good attack.
Dash Attack - Stomach Lunge - Dashing forward, Vespa performs a leaping body slam, good power but high end lag.

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge - Palm Slam - Vespa performs an extremely forceful open palm strike with quick start-up but high end-lag.
Up Charge - Elbow Leap - Vespa leaps up and performs an elbow jab, good for sniping opponents in the air due to a wide hitbox.
Down Charge - Down Crash - A downwards body slam, takes a while to charge but when fully charged the force can bury opponents.

Aerials:
Neutral Air - Stomach Slam - Extending her stomach, Vespa performs a full body slam downwards, the center attack can spike.
Forward Air - Royale Swing - A downward elbow strike that sends opponents forward, due to her size it has good range.
Up Air - Royal Header - A head swing upwards, dealing great knockback and can even KO.
Down Air - Pile Diver - A stall and fall, but a very powerful one that has Vespa perform a body slam downwards and deal massive damage when she crashes on the ground.
Back Air - Elbow Slap - A weak slap from behind with her elbow, easily Vespa's worst attack.

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw - Underarm Throw - Perfroms a Shutate nage, or underarm throw, and throws the opponent forward, good kill throw.
Down Throw - Burying Throw - Vespa burries the opponent into the dirt, weak but allows you to start some combos.
Back Throw - Overarm Throw - Performs a Uwate nage, or overarm throw, and throws the opponent over her shoulder, good kill throw.
Up Throw - Scoop Throw - Performs a Sukui nage, or scoop throw, and scoops them upwards, her weakest throw.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Rebound Spinner - Spinning like a ball, Vespa rolls along the ground, the distance of the move traveled being determined by Vespa's current momentum, a good burst movement option. When used in the air, Vespa spins in midair and bounces off any opponent she lands on, she can also dash forward as a recovery tool.

• Neutral Hyper - Earth Spinner - Putting more weight into her attack, Vespa performs a shorter range but more powerful roll that buries or spikes opponents, depending on their position.

Side Special - Push-out - Vespa performs an Oshi Dashi, or push-out, which launches foes back a great distance. Despite the high knockback, it has low damage, so its best used as a finishing move.

• Side Hyper - Trip-out - Performing a Ke Kaeshi, Vespa uses her own leg to trip the opponent's leg, giving her the opportunity to start a combo

Down Special - Counter-throw - A counterattack that only affects attacks directed at the front. If the counter succeeds, Vespa dashes forward and performs a powerful Judo throw, the attack itself has set damage, rather the knockback of the original move is multiplied by 1.5x.

• Down Hyper - Earth Slammer - Vespa dashes forward, and performs a leaping command grab resembling a flying slam, deals massive damage and can be used as a kill move.

Up Special - Leaping Hornet - Vespa jumps in the air and then performs a ground pound below, solid enough recovery option.

• Up Hyper - Earth Comet - Vespa's ground pound now burries the opponent.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Bee Blocker - Summoning a battalion of Apidon Wasp drones, Vespa has them block off the opponent to prevent them from attacking her from behind, they can be killed if given enough damage.
Level 2 - Thunder Quake - A powerful leg slam causes a fault line to occur, creating a zone where the enemy gets endlessly tripped.
Level 3 - Great Queen - Vespa eats some royal jelly and grows three time her size, gaining armor on all of her attacks, effect lasts 10 seconds.

I used this series of videos for the more obvert sumo inspirations. May be my most fleshed out kit yet, tell me how much you like it Kirbeh . I don't know if I should have more moves based off bees and wasps, I don't know if thats necessary.

This was her original kit, I was going to give her mostly a complete overhaul, play more like a huge girthy tank, though unlike LAMBDA Vespa has better mobility in exchange for the whole weak from behind gimmick.

Cicadas are also a more girthy bug, so they match with Vespa's overall body type and fighting style.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Before I make her rework, are there aspects of Vespa's original kit you think I should keep Kirbeh , if not from an aesthetic concept but from a mechanical concept.

 

[Glubbfubb]

Spoiler: Moveset Template

Name - Vespa
Gender - Female
Species - Alpha Geodine Cicada
Origin - Vepsa is highly important figure for her species, the Geodine Cicada... for you see, she is the only one awake. The Geodine Cicada live in well... Geodine, a crystalline world that gets ravaged by cosmic storms for over 1000 years, before a year of respite is given to allow the Geodine Cicadas to mate and form a new generation. To preserve themselves, the current generation of Geodine Cicadas stay in crystalized cocoons to sleep through the storm. However, there needs to be a caretaker available to protect the current generation, so a single Geodine Cicada is made into an alpha to protect and look after the other dormant members of their species. Vespa has been doing her job as alpha for over 20 years, looking after her fellow kin until they wake up. Vespa is a gentle giant at heart, motherly and pleasant, but like the storms on the surface, she can have a temper if angered. So you can imagine what would happen when an illegal mining operation landed on her planet and harvested her kind, like precious gemstones. There will be chaos.

Appearance - Based on the Cicada, Vespa is quite a girthy individual, fitting her rock-hard sturdiness. Living underneath the ground has caused her appearance to be stained with earthy tones while causing her exoskeleton to be as hard as rock despite her appearance. Vespa has a pair of black compound eyes and a fanged mouth, though when angry, her mouth becomes much more serrated and her eyes are nearly missing. She mainly wears black clothing, stained with dirt and other substances, with her chest carrying a symbol of her people, representing how she is alpha. She also wears gloves and boots, embroidered with geodes to both make them more stylish and make her limbs hit harder(imagine iron knuckles but made of amethyst).

Archetype -
Gimmick - Stone Gut -

• Vespa's massive size and weight, combined with her being in a defensive pose most of the time means she takes reduced knockback and damage from the front, but more damage when attacked from behind. She is also immune to tripping from the front. Some attacks also give her minor armor when attacked from the front.

Intended Strengths -

• A character designed with impeccably strong defense in the front, allowing Vespa to deal some massive damage, especially when mixed with her super armor.
• Excellent ground speed for her size and weight, letting her run great distances.
• While lacking in range, Vespa's attacks tend to be high in power or can produce secondary effects like burying and stunning.

Intended Weaknesses -

• Her gimmick can cause some harm to her as well, as a mobile opponent can go over her defenses and attack her weak points.
• Attacks, while strong, lack range, and her Back Air and Tilts are legitimately the worst in the game.
• Vespa has subpar aerial stats and recovery.

Planned Stats: (Give a letter grade from E- to A+)
Walk Speed - B-
Running Speed - B+
Traction - B+
Jump Height - C-
Air Acceleration - C-
Fall Speed - B-
Weight - A+

Ground Moves:
Jab -
Forward Tilt -
Up Tilt -
Down Tilt -
Back Tilt -
Dash Attack -

Charge Attacks:
Side Charge -
Up Charge -
Down Charge -

Aerials:
Neutral Air -
Forward Air -
Up Air -
Down Air -
Back Air -

Grabs:
Pummel -
Forward Throw -
Down Throw -
Back Throw -
Up Throw -

Specials:
Neutral Special - Buzzing Bash - Dashing slightly forward, Vespa performs a clapping attack while creating a buzzing ring similar to a cicada call. On top of being a potent shield break, the signals the clap creates can reflect projectiles at 1.5x power back at the opponent. The period of reflection is quite short, so be careful if it whiffs.

• Neutral Hyper - Buzz Bomber - Summoning echoing energy Vespa creates small invisible bombs in front of her that float in the air and explode just after casting. The lack of visibility on this attack makes it a good sneak attack.

Side Special - Cicada Drill - Vespa will dig forward feet first and spin like a drill, performing a deadly ramming attack. The attack has a tipper mechanic where landing the final hit on the tip deals massive damage. The distance this move travels is dependent on the current ground speed of Vespa, the higher her speed the farther the drill travels, and therefore the more hits it performs. When used in the air she will fly diagonally downward, comparable to a comet, and will instead perform a powerful single hit.

• Side Hyper - Geode Drill - Vespa performs a round-house kick, sending her a bit forward while also creating a ground-hugging crystalline drill as a projectile, with the same properties as a Cicada Drill but without the risk of Vespa herself being put into danger, making it safer.

Down Special - Earth Swimmer - Vespa will dig into a spiral formation and create an earth tornado. This multi-hit, while weak, is a good shield buster and get-off-me tool. When used in the air, there will be fewer multi-hits, but it will allow her to drift horizontally for recovery.

• Down Hyper - Seismic Wave - With a slam to the ground, Vespa creates a wave of seismic activity, stunning anyone on the ground. This move is comparable to Potemkin's Slide Head in that it does no damage but has a nasty stun effect, giving it good combo-starting potential. When used in the air it becomes a devastating ground-pound with a stunning aftershock.

Up Special - Throwing Stone - Vespa wraps herself in stone and becomes a boulder; in the air, this will leap her in a similar motion to a stone being lobbed, giving her a recovery option with a unique angle. However, it is short-range and can be exploited despite also being invincible during the attack. On the ground, she will just jump slightly upwards and ground pound, burying anyone underneath.

• Up Hyper - Stone Comet - Vespa's boulder form is tossed higher and then can come down at an angle you can manipulate, making this a better recovery option.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Orbiting Stones - 3 stones are spawned that circle around Vespa, similar to Mega Man 5's Power Stone. The stones are good for both offense and defense as they allow her protection against projectiles and can be launched as good projectiles.
Level 2 - Stone Spike Drop - With a slam from her leg, a row of rocky spikes fall from the sky, creating a great danger from above that can spike those unfortunate that fall underneath.
Level 3 - Slate Smash - Vespa jumps back and dashes forward while wrapping herself in burning rocks, creating a powerful kill move in the process. The aftermath of such a deadly attack leaves behind a row of spikes rocks to act as a trap.

Kirbeh here is my rework so far, haven't made any neutral attacks yet but I quite like the direction for her kit rework. We can discuss this over Discord if that's fine.

 

[Kirbeh]

Appearance -
earthy tones

- Ok, makes sense. Fitting choice for a color palette.

while causing her exoskeleton to be as hard as rock despite her appearance.

- So, her overall appearance doesn't necessarily reflect the new direction aside from the cicada inspiration.

Vespa has a pair of black compound eyes and a fanged mouth,

- So, actual big bug eyes this time then?

though when angry, her mouth becomes much more serrated, and her eyes are nearly missing.

- How does the latter work exactly? Especially if their proper compound eyes, what happens to them?

She mainly wears black clothing, stained with dirt and other substances, with her chest carrying a symbol of her people, representing how she is alpha.

- What's their symbol?

She also wears gloves and boots, embroidered with geodes to both make them more stylish and make her limbs hit harder(imagine iron knuckles but made of amethyst).

- In that case, she's not really embroidering with the geodes themselves but the minerals she gathers from them. Would've been easier to just say she embroiders stuff with gems. Though I don't know if gemstones are something you can actually embroider? Stuff like rhinestones are typically glued on using heat.

Archetype -
Gimmick - Stone Gut -

• Vespa's massive size and weight, combined with her being in a defensive pose most of the time means she takes reduced knockback and damage from the front, but more damage when attacked from behind. She is also immune to tripping from the front. Some attacks also give her minor armor when attacked from the front.

- It's basically Belly Armor, right? Except that it doesn't break.

Specials:
Neutral Special - Buzzing Bash - Dashing slightly forward, Vespa performs a clapping attack while creating a buzzing ring similar to a cicada call. On top of being a potent shield break, the signals the clap creates can reflect projectiles at 1.5x power back at the opponent. The period of reflection is quite short, so be careful if it whiffs.

• Neutral Hyper - Buzz Bomber - Summoning echoing energy Vespa creates small invisible bombs in front of her that float in the air and explode just after casting. The lack of visibility on this attack makes it a good sneak attack.

- Love the base special move, but the hyper version feels kind of random in relation to her new theming.

Side Special - Cicada Drill - Vespa will dig forward feet first and spin like a drill, performing a deadly ramming attack. The attack has a tipper mechanic where landing the final hit on the tip deals massive damage. The distance this move travels is dependent on the current ground speed of Vespa, the higher her speed the farther the drill travels, and therefore the more hits it performs. When used in the air she will fly diagonally downward, comparable to a comet, and will instead perform a powerful single hit.

Is this supposed to be like a Drill Rush aimed at the ground? Need more details on how it's supposed to look. Otherwise, I don't really like tying it to whatever current ground speed she has. For one, it makes the move, less useful out of shield or from a standstill. Second, if she already has good ground speed, wouldn't you be able to just start a dash and cancel into the special to get the tipper version anyway?

• Side Hyper - Geode Drill - Vespa performs a round-house kick, sending her a bit forward while also creating a ground-hugging crystalline drill as a projectile, with the same properties as a Cicada Drill but without the risk of Vespa herself being put into danger, making it safer.

I can kinda see what you were going for here, but like the previous hyper, this feels a bit off. Though, less out of place and more just in relation to the base move. I feel this sort of projectile could have been its own move in the first place or paired as the hyper to a more basic projectile.

Down Special - Earth Swimmer - Vespa will dig into a spiral formation and create an earth tornado. This multi-hit, while weak, is a good shield buster and get-off-me tool. When used in the air, there will be fewer multi-hits, but it will allow her to drift horizontally for recovery.

Her associated element is earth. You gave her a tornado. This also just feels like side special but with a bigger hitbox.

• Down Hyper - Seismic Wave - With a slam to the ground, Vespa creates a wave of seismic activity, stunning anyone on the ground. This move is comparable to Potemkin's Slide Head in that it does no damage but has a nasty stun effect, giving it good combo-starting potential. When used in the air it becomes a devastating ground-pound with a stunning aftershock.

This choice makes more sense but I'm honestly surprised you didn't make this a trip move. Slide Head causes a knockdown, so translating that to tripping in a platform fighter would make perfect sense. The one time I would've actually agreed on tripping and you ironically didn't go for it.

Up Special - Throwing Stone - Vespa wraps herself in stone and becomes a boulder; in the air, this will leap her in a similar motion to a stone being lobbed, giving her a recovery option with a unique angle. However, it is short-range and can be exploited despite also being invincible during the attack. On the ground, she will just jump slightly upwards and ground pound, burying anyone underneath.

Aremi's Headshot but large? Turning into a heavy boulder for a recovery move feels a bit unintuitive tbh.

• Up Hyper - Stone Comet - Vespa's boulder form is tossed higher and then can come down at an angle you can manipulate, making this a better recovery option.

This option I like a lot more but feel like it might be better suited on a character more closely associated with space stuff as opposed to the now more literally grounded/ground-based Vespa.

Hypermax Attacks -
Level 1 - Orbiting Stones - 3 stones are spawned that circle around Vespa, similar to Mega Man 5's Power Stone. The stones are good for both offense and defense as they allow her protection against projectiles and can be launched as good projectiles.

Ditto to the above comment. Well, sort of, if it's exactly like MM5 Power Stone or maybe an SF3 Oro Tengu Stone then I guess it works, but the idea of creating stuff to orbit around you feels like prime material for a more "celestial" type of character. (Did something similar for one of my characters actually.)

Level 2 - Stone Spike Drop - With a slam from her leg, a row of rocky spikes fall from the sky, creating a great danger from above that can spike those unfortunate that fall underneath.

If this is supposed to be an earth/seismic thing, shouldn't she have spikes/pillars erupt from the ground rather than randomly materialize out of the sky?

Level 3 - Slate Smash - Vespa jumps back and dashes forward while wrapping herself in burning rocks, creating a powerful kill move in the process. The aftermath of such a deadly attack leaves behind a row of spikes rocks to act as a trap.

So, she turns into a meteor and sets up Stealth Rock? Once again, I feel like these two ideas could be made into separate moves, with the former being better suited for someone with fire-based abilities maybe?

This feels a bit less cohesive than the original sumo inspired moveset and a bit like it's also sort of noncommittal to the earth theming. A big example imo is the lack of a burrowing move despite that being a major aspect of her species.

I think it'd be best to lay down some core elements before going back into the actual move making since it feels like Vespa's concept has sort of gotten a bit messy.

Going back to the very basics.

She's based on cicadas. Cicadas burrow and fly. They're poorly suited for walking/running. The males produce the calls we hear.

Obviously, we don't need to follow these traits exactly, so shell gain and lose a few things here. You want her to be big and ground focused so her wings may not be very useful, meanwhile she actually does have good speed and can produce cicada calls.

On the subject of her size. Where does she stand now? Are we sticking to the very round build or are you making some alterations?

Then the "earth theming." Drills are used for digging and excavation, but I feel basing a chunk of her moveset off of drills directly counters her story of being against the invading mining operation. While her species does burrow, they would likely do so with their own claws and such.

You also brought up geodes and gem decorations, perhaps leaning into that angle a bit could provide more moveset inspiration. You made mention of "brass" knuckles, but made from amethyst. I think that's a good start too. In this case, her gloves could be studded with amethysts, the knuckles in particular in this instance. They can be designed in a similar fashion to the gloves used by some hand-to-hand Final Fantasy characters like Tifa or Zell. Vespa could then have a punch oriented, heavy bruiser fighting style to match.

 

[Glubbfubb]

- Ok, makes sense. Fitting choice for a color palette.




- So, her overall appearance doesn't necessarily reflect the new direction aside from the cicada inspiration.




- So, actual big bug eyes this time then?




- How does the latter work exactly? Especially if their proper compound eyes, what happens to them?



- What's their symbol?



- In that case, she's not really embroidering with the geodes themselves but the minerals she gathers from them. Would've been easier to just say she embroiders stuff with gems. Though I don't know if gemstones are something you can actually embroider? Stuff like rhinestones are typically glued on using heat.

- It's basically Belly Armor, right? Except that it doesn't break.

- Love the base special move, but the hyper version feels kind of random in relation to her new theming.




Is this supposed to be like a Drill Rush aimed at the ground? Need more details on how it's supposed to look. Otherwise, I don't really like tying it to whatever current ground speed she has. For one, it makes the move, less useful out of shield or from a standstill. Second, if she already has good ground speed, wouldn't you be able to just start a dash and cancel into the special to get the tipper version anyway?

I can kinda see what you were going for here, but like the previous hyper, this feels a bit off. Though, less out of place and more just in relation to the base move. I feel this sort of projectile could have been its own move in the first place or paired as the hyper to a more basic projectile.



Her associated element is earth. You gave her a tornado. This also just feels like side special but with a bigger hitbox.

This choice makes more sense but I'm honestly surprised you didn't make this a trip move. Slide Head causes a knockdown, so translating that to tripping in a platform fighter would make perfect sense. The one time I would've actually agreed on tripping and you ironically didn't go for it.



Aremi's Headshot but large? Turning into a heavy boulder for a recovery move feels a bit unintuitive tbh.


This option I like a lot more but feel like it might be better suited on a character more closely associated with space stuff as opposed to the now more literally grounded/ground-based Vespa.


Ditto to the above comment. Well, sort of, if it's exactly like MM5 Power Stone or maybe an SF3 Oro Tengu Stone then I guess it works, but the idea of creating stuff to orbit around you feels like prime material for a more "celestial" type of character. (Did something similar for one of my characters actually.)


If this is supposed to be an earth/seismic thing, shouldn't she have spikes/pillars erupt from the ground rather than randomly materialize out of the sky?


So, she turns into a meteor and sets up Stealth Rock? Once again, I feel like these two ideas could be made into separate moves, with the former being better suited for someone with fire-based abilities maybe?

This feels a bit less cohesive than the original sumo inspired moveset and a bit like it's also sort of noncommittal to the earth theming. A big example imo is the lack of a burrowing move despite that being a major aspect of her species.

I think it'd be best to lay down some core elements before going back into the actual move making since it feels like Vespa's concept has sort of gotten a bit messy.

Going back to the very basics.

She's based on cicadas. Cicadas burrow and fly. They're poorly suited for walking/running. The males produce the calls we hear.

Obviously, we don't need to follow these traits exactly, so shell gain and lose a few things here. You want her to be big and ground focused so her wings may not be very useful, meanwhile she actually does have good speed and can produce cicada calls.

On the subject of her size. Where does she stand now? Are we sticking to the very round build or are you making some alterations?

Then the "earth theming." Drills are used for digging and excavation, but I feel basing a chunk of her moveset off of drills directly counters her story of being against the invading mining operation. While her species does burrow, they would likely do so with their own claws and such.

You also brought up geodes and gem decorations, perhaps leaning into that angle a bit could provide more moveset inspiration. You made mention of "brass" knuckles, but made from amethyst. I think that's a good start too. In this case, her gloves could be studded with amethysts, the knuckles in particular in this instance. They can be designed in a similar fashion to the gloves used by some hand-to-hand Final Fantasy characters like Tifa or Zell. Vespa could then have a punch oriented, heavy bruiser fighting style to match.

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I see, good advice, finding female heavyweights is surprisingly difficult, so I have a hard time conceptualizing a cohesive kit. My overall goals for her is to be this large tank, hard as diamonds since Diamonds are Unbreakable, that can hit hard and takes hit hard, but for this great defense and offense she has a crippling weak-point compared to other characters.

 

[Glubbfubb]

You know I was thinking of implementing more crystalline inspiration to Vespa's design, why not instead of making her round like a sphere she instead has angular parts, like a geode or gemstone?

Imagine you would for her to be comparable in size and weight to a boulder... because she is a living boulder, or more accurately, a species of large crystalline insect. We can have gem-encrusted iron knuckles and boots, crystalline horns resembling a crown to showcase her alpha status and have her front have hard crystal clusters carving out of her gut (maybe cubic zircona, as seen from the third image, which is one of the densest and hardest gemstones to naturally occur in nature.), while her backside is softer soil, visually showcasing her gimmick. Crystals are known for their powerful echoing abilities, which allow her to give her sound and seismic abilities alongside her cicada inspiration. And maybe if we change her backstory a bit, how about giving her a giant pickaxe as a weapon, something that is as heavy as a club, but cuts as sharp as a katana, since the blade is also infused with sharp crystals. May be a large distance from the current concept, but I think this would be really cool, how about you Kirbeh ? I may make a new rework that implements these ideas tomorrow.