Data Shulk patch thread

[Masonomace]

Oh damndify Back Slash's Startup isn't Frame 25 but Frame 22? Hotness. Make that change berserker

Also I've been testing the horizontal range of U-air. . .and wow the difference between the front & back hitbox for U-air is huge when considering the move's appearance being long & thin. Backward-facing 2nd hit of U-air ftw now. Btw this applies to both the 10% Blade & 7.5% Beam hitboxes to U-air's 2nd hit. Wow!

EDIT: Oh jeez I forgot to notice the 1st hit getting a range increase, & I did a brief horizontal test for that too. Backward-facing 1st hit of U-air ftw.

 

[erico9001]

So apparently the Back Slash buff was better than we thought!




Frame 22. With the jump it's basically a ranged smash attack that we can use in the air at this point.

Aw, why did I trust Doom's mate. I totally knew that but doubted myself

So it's as I thought. The frame modifier is .7. .7 x 31 = 21.7. I guess they rounded up.

Found the evidence for shulk's dash attack. I'm quite puzzled. I'm doing the same thing here and the dash attacks end at the same point for me. There are many undocumented changes to character IASA frames in all previous patches, so maybe the 3DS in this gif is older than 1.08? Maybe he failed to hold the shield button at the same time as the wii u version? If anybody knows the creator of this, let me know.

I tried to measure it too, and found them to be about the same. However, I noticed my gamepad has latency compared to the 3ds. This is why I'm even more puzzled, because the gif appears to be using the gamepad and a 3ds as well.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I tried to measure it too, and found them to be about the same. However, I noticed my gamepad has latency compared to the 3ds. This is why I'm even more puzzled, because the gif appears to be using the gamepad and a 3ds as well.

Here is the explanation for that gif:

The Lucario, Shulk and Toon Link differences were annoying me so I've managed to track down a 1.0.5 3DS and I'm getting results more in-line with what others have said. Before I was using a 1.0.0 3DS.

Lucario's forward-smash and down-smash cool down increases. Shulk's dash-attack buff and Toon Link's neutral-aerial landing decrease are actually 1.0.4 / Wii U release patch changes that were somehow missed. I'm consistently able to recreate these differences with a 3DS 1.0.0 copy of the game.

So apologies for confusing people.

 

[WindHero]

Has anyone confirmed that shield regen is slower for sure? I think Shulk's shield-damaging game could become quite viable if so... Especially with Buster.

 

[Seb9k+]

I am loving the faster Back Slash. I've been practicing landing Back Slashes ever since the game released, so I was already getting them quite often; but now, it's crazy. I landed three in a row before on a good Falcon with some mindreading, too satisfying haha.

 

[Berserker.]

Has anyone confirmed that shield regen is slower for sure? I think Shulk's shield-damaging game could become quite viable if so... Especially with Buster.

Didn't see anything about the changes on shield regen. I only heard that rolls and side steps were nerfed

 

[Berserker.]

This thread is relevant

But it will be updated once this other thread is fully updated

 

[Schilt]

I'm maybe totally imagining things here, but in my brief testing, Shulk's nair and fair both look faster, and fair and dair appears to autocancel now.

Similarly, upsmash appears to have less endlag, downsmash and fsmash appear unchanged.

Edit: Forget the autocancels, doesn't look like they do.

 

[Berserker.]

Try to minimize on the placebo guys

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

We've just confirmed all of Shulk's aerials to have reduced landing lag. Progress on community patch notes is still slow, please be patient.

 

[Nammy12]

I'm maybe totally imagining things here, but in my brief testing, Shulk's nair and fair both look faster, and fair and dair appears to autocancel now.

Similarly, upsmash appears to have less endlag, downsmash and fsmash appear unchanged.

Edit: Forget the autocancels, doesn't look like they do.

Aerials are confirmed.

Tested usmash, its still the same as previous patch.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I thought I was going nuts with how fast Nair was recovering. And of course the damage boost will put the opponent in shield stun for just a SMIDGE longer...It won't turn Shulk's world upside down but this patch has certainly been helpful. Wonder if there's any new combos to be developed.

 

[WindHero]

@TrueSapphire, looks like you finally got something hoped for. I for one take this as having at least a few prayers answered. It may not be a lot (2 frames across all aerials... eh), but it adds up, methinks.

Also nice that my other main, Robin, got some range and frame buffs.

Cloud is a blast to play, but takes some management. His recovery is.............. Situational? At least I found out he wall jumps.

 

[Berserker.]

Cloud's recovery sucks without limit break but this is not the thread for this discussion

 

[gridatttack]

I knew it. I was playing Shulk and I felt something was off!

Even if they are just 2 frames less, I'm grateful!

Plus with the more damage output. this has been a good patch for us.

I wonder if the february one will bring more buffs. I still wonder why no autocancel for some aerials. I mean, they are other aerials from other fighters which are just as good and they autocancel...

 

[Seb9k+]

Holy **** can we all just cry for joy together over these land lag buffs

Nair spamming will be safer now

Good Guy Sakurai God bless

 

[Sol0ke]

Uair got more than 2 frames reduction if I recall correctly.

 

[ghsrkm]

Uair got more than 2 frames reduction if I recall correctly.

Apparently it got a whopping 12 frame reduction. Now you can use the first (weak) hitbox of uair to combo into something else (like u-tilt) more reliably.

 

[Sonicninja115]

Apparently it got a whopping 12 frame reduction. Now you can use the first (weak) hitbox of uair to combo into something else (like u-tilt) more reliably.

The 12 was a typo.

Masonomace Have you been able to test anything yet?

 

[Masonomace]

Just for some assurance:

• Monado Shield's damage dealt multiplier is still 0.70x
• Monado Shield's shield strength is still ~63 HP
• Monado Shield's damage taken multiplier says 0.67x, but after some testing, it's closer to being 0.66999x. . .Eh no big deal
• Monado Shield Shulk still walks slower than Jigglypuff & runs slower than Robin
• The usual Monado art techniques are still there
• Hyper Buster Dair first hit does not deal enough shield stun to lock their shield into the second hit. RIP
• Monado Jump's damage taken multiplier is the same (1.22x)
• Monado Jump seems unchanged otherwise
• Monado Speed's damage dealt multiplier is still 0.80x
• Monado Speed seems unchanged otherwise
• Monado Buster's damage dealt multiplier is still 1.4x
• Monado Buster's damage taken multiplier is still 1.13x
• Monado Smash's damage dealt multiplier is still 0.5x
• I'm not doing Customs special Monado art multipliers today

G'day.

EDIT: Oh & based off the damage values I was changing for the damage tables in the Metagame OP, Monado art damage multipliers went like this. For Shulk's tilts & aerials getting that +0.5% buff spread besides the +1% damage buff to the aerial-targeted only hitbox of Down air's first hit in Training Mode:

• Monado Speed's damages went up +0.4% (Example: Old Blade Ftilt's 13% was 10.4%. Now, new Ftilt's 13.5% is 10.8%)
  
• Monado Shield's damages went up +0.35% (Example: Old Blade Dtilt's 9% was 6.3%. Now, new Dtilt's 9.5% is 6.65%)
  
• Monado Buster's damages went up +0.7% (Example: Old Blade Bair's 12% was 16.8%. Now, new Bair's 12.5% is 17.5%)
  
• Monado Smash's damages went up +0.25% (Example: Old Blade Utilt's 8% was 4%. Now, new Utilt's 8.5% is 4.25%)

EDIT:

• Decisive Buster's damages went up +0.77% (Example: Old Blade Ftilt's 13% was 20.02%. Now, new Ftilt's 13.5% would be 20.79%)
• Hyper Speed's damages went up +0.32% (Example: Old Blade Nair's 7% was 4.48. Now, new Nair's 7.5% would be 4.8%)
• Hyper Shield's damages went up +0.28% (Example: Old Dash Attack's 11% was 6.16%. Now new Dash Attack's 11.5% would be 6.44)
• Hyper Buster's damages went up +0.84% (Example: Old Blade Bair's 12% was 20.16%. Now, new Bair's 12.5% would be 21%)
• Hyper Smash's damages went up +0.2% (Example: Old Blade Utilt's 8% was 3.2%. Now, new Utilt's 8.5% would be 3.4%)

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I like how Sakurai doesn't see a need to change Shulk's garbage dash attack

EDIT:

However, it's nice to see buffs on his aerials and tilts.
Maybe 1.1.4 will see a nice buff on his dash attack... and maybe his jab and n-air.

EDIT 2:

I'm thinking N-Air out on frame 11, (and go through the loop quickly (like Cloud's N-Air)?) but reduce the damage back to pre- 1.1.3.
and jab start up on frame 3 but deal 2% less damage total. (so it goes from 12% to 10%)

And dash attack deal 1% less damage, but start up on frame 10 and have less ending lag. (maybe less KO power to "balance" it out?)

 

[Masonomace]

Lots of things could use a change. I want a duration buff to the Hyper arts, increasing it to 480 frames (8 seconds) from its current 360 frames (6 seconds). Many other things about his custom specials could use buffs, such as his Back Slash Leap, Back Slash Charge, & Mighty Air Slash.

I really wonder if Shulk's frame data will be affected. If anything, perhaps the art's multipliers may change or have already changed without our knowing. And that's kinda likely.

 

[gridatttack]

While it may not happen, a general buff around the frame data start of all attacks in general (Mainly his aerials).
I was playing as Pit only in a past tournament due to not really feeling playing as Shulk, and the next day I was training with Shulk, I could feel that I desperately needed a faster move so I could reach my opponent when he was unable to act (like how I did with Pit)

But can't really complain now. Shulk has been the most buffed character since the release of the 3DS, so I'm not complaining.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

But can't really complain now. Shulk has been the most buffed character since the release of the 3DS, so I'm not complaining.

True, but that's because he desperately needed them. If only Sakurai would let us unlock the secret of auto-canceling...

+Masonomace, Are custom changes really important? I didn't think that customs were used a lot in "official" tournaments and stuff. But I would like to see SMASH! arts (in all 3 customs) boost his KO power just a teensy bit. Right now the risk is not worth it, except for a salty jab KO

 

[Seb9k+]

I most desperately want his aerials to come out faster. The worst part about playing Shulk is being a punching bag when in a combo. Nothing to interrupt with...

 

[Masonomace]

+Masonomace, Are custom changes really important? I didn't think that customs were used a lot in "official" tournaments and stuff. But I would like to see SMASH! arts (in all 3 customs) boost his KO power just a teensy bit. Right now the risk is not worth it, except for a salty jab KO

Well no. It would just be nice for them to get something, since now Back Slash kind of makes BSL & BSC irrelevant. Mighty Air Slash is also rare to be heard used from Shulk players who attend tournaments that allow Customs.

Some Monado art slight changes could happen but I won't count on it.

 

[Sha-Shulk]

Well no. It would just be nice for them to get something, since now Back Slash kind of makes BSL & BSC irrelevant. Mighty Air Slash is also rare to be heard used from Shulk players who attend tournaments that allow Customs.

Some Monado art slight changes could happen but I won't count on it.

True, Back Slash's buff has made BSL irrelevant. But maybe a damage buff could help out? or less lag... and as for BSC, make it have more damage or less lag or something, so really the same for the two i guess.

What could make MAS better, do you think?

I still think a general aerial frame-data buff would help out a lot. But then maybe Shulk would have to receive a nerf?

 

[Masonomace]

True, Back Slash's buff has made BSL irrelevant. But maybe a damage buff could help out? or less lag... and as for BSC, make it have more damage or less lag or something, so really the same for the two i guess.

What could make MAS better, do you think?

I still think a general aerial frame-data buff would help out a lot. But then maybe Shulk would have to receive a nerf?

BSC's endlag reduction would be fitting for one, but it needs to be a lot endlag shaved because the endlag currently for the move while considering the traits about it just doesn't cut it. BSL doing more damage & a longer-lasting Landing phase hitbox window would also be great, since that's what the move's best focus is around. It can keep the endlag since your startup is faster & you fall significantly faster than any BS variant.

MAS would be excellent if many things got changed about it. Currently right now, it's looked at as the worst AS variant simply because:

1. Range is terrible
2. Proper DI against the first hit's sweetspot makes them fly away too far from the second hit
3. You have to use the scooping first hit so that an opponent cannot DI out of the second hit
4. The sourspot rising first hit despite going higher, the hitbox itself doesn't last as long as AS or AAS rising up

This is all very difficult to get around with what you have using MAS. The vertical height traveled is great sure, but things to help make it more safe & not so much as a commitment would be the following (IMO):

1. Slightly more disjointed range somewhere within the startup or the rising sourspot (Think about the last time you used Ftilt. Ftilt's Blade hitbox is a lot more dominant & larger in comparison to the Beam)
2. Having a patch fix on the move's set knockback so that the move properly connects better for when you read the opponent's air movement from above
3. Not have awful horizontal drifting during the attack & freefalling after the move finishes
4. Allow MAS to act with fastfall more quickly after the second hit's hitbox ends & starts the endlag freefall animation

But yeah, while it would be great to have faster startup & understandable endlag / FAF animation fixes to Shulk's aerials, I could really be fine with just frame speed buffs to the second hit of Uair & Dair. Right now, what I hear & notice myself with Shulk's aerials that get disappointed with the most is that when players use Uthrow > Uair while Monado Jump is active or they buffer the art's deactivation, they drift too far to a side reading the opponent's DI that the first hit lobs them up but then drift-by too soon before the second hit of Uair comes out. While that is kind of on them, Shulk does possess terrible air acceleration so it's understandable for that. My own issue with the second hit of Dair is that when I use Dair on-stage to pressure shields with Monado Enchant active, it doesn't lock them into forcefully holding shield so a perfect shield drop to whatever can punish Shulk before the second hit even appears. Even then, not perfect shielding & just shield dropping into a fast-frame oos option stops my Dair attempt. . .

 

[Sonicninja115]

Masonomace has the patch boosted or weakend Shulk's combo potential?

 

[Sha-Shulk]

I think Shulk's Nair is fine, (a faster startup, balanced with reduced damage would be nice IMO) but his Fair needs work and his Uair should connect a lot better. Maybe even give him a wider hitbox on the first hit of Uair?

The patch has given the Nair more shield pressure in buster, more safety in jump, and speed is about the same for me

 

[Masonomace]

Because today is a day of DLC incoming, there may or may not be a patch. It is likely that there can be one though. Anyway, bumping this in preparation for what may come.

 

[erico9001]

Hey, looks like we may have had a graphical update on our beam animations? Some extra lightning and stuff?

Otherwise... doesn't look like anything.

 

[ExcaliburGuy]

Wait, what happened to the Air Slash range buff? I haven't been able to test anything out, but Mace said that that AS got a massive horizontal range buff in the Discord group.

 

[gridatttack]

Well, I dunno either, but the patch notes list Shulk as "No changes".

Would be nice if we got a buff in any area though.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Too lazy to fish up his quote wherever it is, but Masonomace mentioned that he was wrong about the AS range buff.

Sounded like a weird buff anyways, honestly. However helpful it might of been, ASOOS works fine as is for the most part. Invincibility somewhere around its startup would be significantly handier.

 

[WindHero]

Oh well, it was nice to hope while it lasted.

If it's any consolation, I played a 4 player FFA yesterday with 2 stocks, and I 2stocked everyone while nabbing every KO. At least we know Shulk isn't bad!

 

[MaxRevenge]

So a lot of people have been saying that Corrin has the most powerful counter now. As a Shulk main, I really wanted to see if this was actually true or not.

First of all, I think it's quite obvious that Power Vision is a lot stronger than counter surge. But I want to compare it to Shulk's standard forward vision.

According to Kuroganehammer, Shulk's grounded counter has a KBG of 94 and a BKG of 70. Corrin's counter has a KBG of 74 and a BKG of 90. Is KBG a lot more important than BKG in the case with counters?

I know Corrin's counter is more flexible and versatile, but I just want see how powerful (knockback wise) it is compared to Shulk's.

 

[MeatOfJustice]

So a lot of people have been saying that Corrin has the most powerful counter now. As a Shulk main, I really wanted to see if this was actually true or not.

First of all, I think it's quite obvious that Power Vision is a lot stronger than counter surge. But I want to compare it to Shulk's standard forward vision.

According to Kuroganehammer, Shulk's grounded counter has a KBG of 94 and a BKG of 70. Corrin's counter has a KBG of 74 and a BKG of 90. Is KBG a lot more important than BKG in the case with counters?

I know Corrin's counter is more flexible and versatile, but I just want see how powerful (knockback wise) it is compared to Shulk's.

It means Corrin's Counter Surge kills earlier (And it also has a 90° angle for vertical KOs, making it even more broken) while Shulk's Vision is better for later kills. And both have a x1.3 damage increase, while Roy's has x1.35.

 

[Masonomace]

Okay so a few things to check / change / edit Berserker. :

• In 1.0.4, Fair's landing lag was actually reduced to 18 frames, not 17.
• In 1.0.4, Jab3's sourspot late hitbox was 3.2%, but was buffed to 4.2%. So this would look like 3.2% → 4.2%
• You have the Dash Attack endlag reduction in 1.0.0 patch notes, but I'd move it to the 1.0.4 quote box.
• In 1.0.4, edit the Dsmash line & say "all hitbox damages increased by 1%", then add the numbers~
  (Hit 1) 13%/11% → 14%/12%
  (Hit 2) 11%/9% → 12%/10%
  (Hit 3) 9%/7% → 10%/8%
  (Hit 4) 7%/5% → 8%/6%
  (Hit 5) 5%/3% → 6%/4%
• In 1.0.4, Forward tilt's sourspot damage was 10.5%, not 10%. So it should look like 10.5% → 11%
• In 1.0.4, Up tilt is missing. It should look like 7%/6% → 8%/7%
• In 1.0.4, it's fine to have Forward smash & Up smash's 1% damage buff change, but it doesn't specifically mention the math buff behind it. So I'd add the numbers like so~
  
  Forward smash
  (Hit 1) 5% → 5.5%
  (Hit 2) 12.5%/11% → 13%/11.5%
  
  Up smash
  (Hit 1) 4% → 4.5%
  (Hit 2) 13% → 13.5%
  
  
• In 1.0.4, Up air & Down air share the same thing as Fsmash & Usmash. So I'd have the numbers out to look like this:
  
  Up air
  (Hit 1) 4%? → 5%
  (Hit 2) 9%/6.5%? → 10%/7.5%
  
  Down air
  (Hit 1) 6%/4% → 7%/5%
  (Hit 2) 10%/9% → 11%/10%
  
  
• In 1.0.4, Back Slash has always dealt the same damage. It doesn't need to be green, but rather yellow.
• In 1.0.4, Air Slash had these math damage buffs
  
  Air Slash
  (Hit 1) 5%/4% → 6%/5%

More patches gotta be updated, like 1.1.1 & 1.1.3

 

[Berserker.]

Decided to just remove the numbers/data indicating no changes entirely. No point of putting 'em if there were no changes anyway

Thread has been updated