Shovel Knight ~ Steel Thy Shovel! Amiibo CONFIRMED!

[BluePikmin11]

I'll ask again, which of you are real SK supporters? There's an unhealthy amount of negativity for a support thread.

 

[LancerStaff]

**** it. Joining the thread here
Need a source that Little Mac was even considered playable before Sm4sh, not to mention that he only got to be a character when they thought that. If anything, Puff is a reverse Mac yet that didn't stop Puff
Ike was made playable because Sakurai wanted a brutish heavy swordsman
Shovel Knight could still have unique moves

Sakurai has talked about Little Mac's popularity a few times and his status as an AT back in the Brawl days, and then in the Smash Bros. Nintendo Direct he talked about how it was difficult to come up with a moveset that wasn't just punches. A simple deduction... He's also talked about how Miamoto wanted Pac-Man in Brawl but decided against it because he couldn't come up with a moveset.

Chrom didn't (and won't) get in because he'd just be the in-between Marth and Ike. Either SK's going to end up like Marth/Ike and just use the shovel or like the Links because of the projectiles. Considering Sakurai turned down Pac because of moveset problems, I don't think he'd even consider a comparative zero like SK with how vanilla he'd be.

 

[Megadoomer]

Sakurai has talked about Little Mac's popularity a few times and his status as an AT back in the Brawl days, and then in the Smash Bros. Nintendo Direct he talked about how it was difficult to come up with a moveset that wasn't just punches. A simple deduction... He's also talked about how Miamoto wanted Pac-Man in Brawl but decided against it because he couldn't come up with a moveset.

Chrom didn't (and won't) get in because he'd just be the in-between Marth and Ike. Either SK's going to end up like Marth/Ike and just use the shovel or like the Links because of the projectiles. Considering Sakurai turned down Pac because of moveset problems, I don't think he'd even consider a comparative zero like SK with how vanilla he'd be.

That doesn't make any sense. Saying that Shovel Knight would play exactly like Marth is like saying that Shulk, Bandanna Waddle Dee, Isaac from Golden Sun, or the Mii Swordsman would play exactly like Marth. The developers would be far more creative than that, especially when the character has a decent amount of material to work with.

 

[FunAtParties]

That doesn't make any sense. Saying that Shovel Knight would play exactly like Marth is like saying that Shulk, Bandanna Waddle Dee, Isaac from Golden Sun, or the Mii Swordsman would play exactly like Marth. The developers would be far more creative than that, especially when the character has a decent amount of material to work with.

Yeah I've been trying to figure out what he's getting at with that. I think he's been saying that the animations/effects of the shovel will be the same as the sword, but that's simply not true. Anyone that's played Shovel Knight knows that the only thing that'd be similar would be Link's dair. Outside of that, SK scoops and jabs with his shovel which isn't really present in any other character's kits, and he has many specials to help further differentiate himself from the rest of the cast. I'm 100% sure that if SK was introduced that he's be very unique.

 

[Munomario777]

Inkdeed, Mega and Zesty. I'm glad that Lancer brought up Pac-Man, because it brings to mind another point. Pac-Man, in his original appearances, doesn't have much potential. He eats stuff, and does a few kicks (from what I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong). But Sakurai shows us that a little creativity goes a long way, as he gives Pac-Man other objects from his game as moves, such as the fruit, the fire hydrant, the pellets, and even the trampoline from Mappy, none of which he ever really used as attacks. But does it still fit the character? Well, yeah. Pac-Man still feels like Pac-Man. Is it unique? You bet!

Similarly, while it may not be required here, Sakurai could take a similar route with Shovel Knight. Aside from the shovel and relics, he could also potentially use the gem bags that appear when he dies. Dig up gems, use them to make sacks, and use the sacks to bounce opponents off of for combos, bounce off of with the pogo for recovery and mobility, as a shield, et cetera. Would it still feel like Shovel Knight? Yes. Bouncing off of things is one of his signature abilities, and the gem bags are a natural extension of that concept, giving him stuff to bounce on. Is it unique? Yes, no other character makes structures like that.

As for other unique things, the relics come to mind, they could be used for some unique moves. Plus, having a fighter focused around digging things could be adapted into some interesting move ideas. Digging opponents into the ground being a focus (in order to then pogo bounce them, which is his bread and butter), digging up boulders for laggy attacks or even stage constructs, making holes to change the shape of the battlefield, digging up gems as projectiles and perhaps a manageable resource (for use with gem bags), and stuff like that. Fill out the gaps with shovel swing attacks that both fit aesthetically with digging motions and tie into the other moves, and gosh darn, it looks like we've just made a unique moveset for Shovel Knight!

 

[LancerStaff]

That doesn't make any sense. Saying that Shovel Knight would play exactly like Marth is like saying that Shulk, Bandanna Waddle Dee, Isaac from Golden Sun, or the Mii Swordsman would play exactly like Marth. The developers would be far more creative than that, especially when the character has a decent amount of material to work with.

So why is Chrom the only one this applies to? Shulk has his Monado Arts... If he didn't, he'd just be a worse Ike. No doubts he wouldn't even be in the game. The Miis in general are very stitched together, being a collection of different aspects of different characters rather then having a true gameplay niche. The point is that they're custom characters, and their gameplans change significantly depending on how you build them with their moves and size. Everybody else... I don't see them being especially suited for Smash either.

We have weapon wielders already. Unless they bring something special they're not going to be playable. Like I said, SK's either going to be a Marth style character or a Link style one. He doesn't have any big gimmicks that translate over to Smash well, and we have every real character "class" that benefits from having a sword. He'd actually be just another swordsman.

Yeah I've been trying to figure out what he's getting at with that. I think he's been saying that the animations/effects of the shovel will be the same as the sword, but that's simply not true. Anyone that's played Shovel Knight knows that the only thing that'd be similar would be Link's dair. Outside of that, SK scoops and jabs with his shovel which isn't really present in any other character's kits, and he has many specials to help further differentiate himself from the rest of the cast. I'm 100% sure that if SK was introduced that he's be very unique.

The gameplay of using the shovel is the same as a sword. Does it actually make a real difference if he swings up or down? If the weapon is utilized like what we've already got, it's not worth including by itself.

If you were paying attention to the topic you'd know I've 100%ed Shovel Knight mode. And have since 100%ed Plague Knight's campaign and the challenge mode. I know how the character works... SK isn't known for fast grounded movement. So, you have to make him powerful to compensate. So he'd end up somewhere between Ike and Link depending on how many projectiles you give him. Am I wrong?

Inkdeed, Mega and Zesty. I'm glad that Lancer brought up Pac-Man, because it brings to mind another point. Pac-Man, in his original appearances, doesn't have much potential. He eats stuff, and does a few kicks (from what I can tell, correct me if I'm wrong). But Sakurai shows us that a little creativity goes a long way, as he gives Pac-Man other objects from his game as moves, such as the fruit, the fire hydrant, the pellets, and even the trampoline from Mappy, none of which he ever really used as attacks. But does it still fit the character? Well, yeah. Pac-Man still feels like Pac-Man. Is it unique? You bet!

Similarly, while it may not be required here, Sakurai could take a similar route with Shovel Knight. Aside from the shovel and relics, he could also potentially use the gem bags that appear when he dies. Dig up gems, use them to make sacks, and use the sacks to bounce opponents off of for combos, bounce off of with the pogo for recovery and mobility, as a shield, et cetera. Would it still feel like Shovel Knight? Yes. Bouncing off of things is one of his signature abilities, and the gem bags are a natural extension of that concept, giving him stuff to bounce on. Is it unique? Yes, no other character makes structures like that.

As for other unique things, the relics come to mind, they could be used for some unique moves. Plus, having a fighter focused around digging things could be adapted into some interesting move ideas. Digging opponents into the ground being a focus (in order to then pogo bounce them, which is his bread and butter), digging up boulders for laggy attacks or even stage constructs, making holes to change the shape of the battlefield, digging up gems as projectiles and perhaps a manageable resource (for use with gem bags), and stuff like that. Fill out the gaps with shovel swing attacks that both fit aesthetically with digging motions and tie into the other moves, and gosh darn, it looks like we've just made a unique moveset for Shovel Knight!

Like I've said before, your ideas for a gameplan for SK makes it easy to be broken, in both senses. And even then the whole idea is remarkably similar to Pac-Man if you want to include reshaping the stage... Although I don't think reshaping the stage would work for balance reasons and system reasons. You'd have to build the stages with being altered in mind, and even if you did I don't know if the 3DS could handle the collision of four SKs and their constructs.

 

[FunAtParties]

The gameplay of using the shovel is the same as a sword. Does it actually make a real difference if he swings up or down? If the weapon is utilized like what we've already got, it's not worth including by itself.

If you were paying attention to the topic you'd know I've 100%ed Shovel Knight mode. And have since 100%ed Plague Knight's campaign and the challenge mode. I know how the character works... SK isn't known for fast grounded movement. So, you have to make him powerful to compensate. So he'd end up somewhere between Ike and Link depending on how many projectiles you give him. Am I wrong?

But he doesn't swing up or down, he pokes forward like, you know, digging with a shovel. Whether or not you feel that's worthy of implementation doesn't mean that him having a shovel is in and of itself like a sword. Like I said, out of Link's dair, no attacks even really remotely resemble how Shovel Knight attacks.

Speed and Power aren't the only two options. Jump height, weight, projectiles, traps, and range are all things that can be taken into account. I see SK as a slow character with middling power, terrible speed, heavy, with good jump height, decent range, and a strong projectile/trap game. I think a balanced character can come from that.

As for your question, I guess the best way to describe him would be a Link, but even that would be stretching it as his projectiles would be very different in effect, and he should jump much higher.

 

[Munomario777]

Everybody else... I don't see them being especially suited for Smash either.

I beg to differ:

Bandana Dee fights using his signature spear, giving him impressive range for such a small stature.

• Has only one midair jump, which looks just like in Return to Dream Land.
• Neutral Special is Spear Throw, where he throws his spear in an arc as another one appears in his hand. Charge to throw multiple spears.
• Side Special has his spear grow a parasol-like metal dish that replaces the spearhead, in reference to the Parasol Waddle Dees from the Kirby games. On the ground, he holds it in front of him and charges forwards, as it blocks attacks. In midair, it functions as a pseudo-glide similar to the Parasol ability from Kirby.
• Up Special is Spear Copter, where he twirls the spear to ascend like a helicopter.
• Down Special is the Megaton Punch, where correct timing leads to a devastating blow that damages opponents in the general area immensely! It is rather slow, though, and tricky to time right. In midair, it's the most powerful spike in the game by far if done properly.
• Jab has him spin his spear.
• Forward Tilt, Up Tilt, and Down Tilt are spear pokes.
• Dash Attack is a pole vault with the spear. Knocks opponents up into the air and sends Dee up with them, good for starting combos.
• Forward Smash is a long-ranged spear poke.
• Up Smash is a spear spin above him.
• Down Smash is the Miniton Punch, a mini version of Down Special that causes a smaller shockwave but is quicker and easier to execute -- just hold the button like any other smash attack.
• Nair is a spear spin like Pit's.
• Fair and Uair are similar to their tilt counterparts.
• Bair is a thrust backwards with the spear, hitting with the non-pointy end. Good knockback but slow to start up.
• Dair is a stall-then-fall with the spear held below him.

Isaac from Golden Sun fights using Psynergy, essentially magic attacks and such.

• Has a defense-oriented, zone-y/camp-y playstyle, able to keep foes at a distance with his multiple ranged attacks.
• Isaac has slightly below-average mobility, but has a good weight stat.
• Neutral Special is Psynergy Hand. Hold the button to cause a giant hand to appear in front of Isaac, like his Brawl AT appearance but stationary. It'll block almost any attack, but can be rolled behind. Isaac can exit the pose by letting go of the button, and while he can't control the hand after this, it'll last for two seconds afterwards, and follow through with any action he inputted beforehand. (haha hand puns) He can't make a new hand until the current one disappears, however. Pressing a direction while holding the button activates a different action with the hand, which Isaac mirrors with his own:
  • Hold sideways for Move, which moves the hand forwards like in Brawl, except it can also go backwards. Let go of the button to make the hand stop wherever it is. Great for positioning the hand, as well as advancing on opponents and pressuring them.
  • Hold up for Catch, which serves a few different purposes. The hand moves upwards a distance equivalent to its own height, and enters a "catching" pose. The hand can catch projectiles during this, throwing them back after up is released. It also acts as a command grab. Once it catches an opponent, Isaac has a few options: let go of up to release the opponent and enter the normal hand state, let go of the B button to control Isaac again and leave the foe in the hand's grasp for a potential follow-up attack if the opponent doesn't break free, press A for a pummel-like squeeze, or press a direction to throw the opponent. To throw upwards, just release up and then quickly press it again.
  • Press down for Pound, where the hand turns into a fist and slams the ground. It deals good damage, but is rather slow. Midair opponents are spiked, making it a great KO option. If it misses, just end the move and get away from the recovering opponent -- just be aware that he won't be able to use the hand until the current one disappears, eliminating some of Isaac's more useful options.
• Side Special is Stone Spire, which has Isaac create earth spires that hover in front of him as long as the button is held. Has quite a bit of starting lag, but Isaac can move around and jump while the spire is being held, and letting go to shoot it forwards is super-fast. A good projectile for zoning, and has the added benefit of blocking an attack, although doing so will cause it to break apart and disappear.
• Up Special is Quake. Tap the button to cause a single square-shaped spire of rock to emerge out of the ground below Isaac, lifting him up one SBB. Hold the button to charge the move, which both doubles the height of the main spire and creates shockwaves to either side, with rubble coming up off of the ground to damage opponents. The charge lasts for up to a second, and the move is great for getting the upper ground on opponents. The spire will disappear either after five seconds or when the move is used again, and can be pushed by Psynergy Hand's Move technique or pushed lower into the ground with the hand's Pound. In midair above the stage, it has the same function. Over a pit, however, the move has no charge, and creates a spire right under Isaac's feet for him to stand on, emerging from the bottomless pit. It disappears after two seconds, and while Isaac gets his double jump back, he won't be able to use the move again until he lands on solid ground or gets hit.
• Down Special is Rockfall. Hold the button to charge, and when the charge is released, boulders will fall down from the skies. More charge = more boulders, and at no charge, the boulder is 5 SBB away from Isaac. Additional boulders then move closer to Isaac, covering a wider range.
• Standards and aerials use Isaac's sword, which is fast with good range but lacks in damage.
• Forward Smash is Ragnarok, where a giant psynergy sword appears above Isaac and, when the charge is released, stabs down at the ground in front of him at an angle a bit more horizontal than 45 degrees. Has a huge hitbox and is pretty powerful, but is also super slow both to start and to end. (Yay accidental alliterations!)
• Up Smash is Growth, where Isaac causes spiny plants to grow out of the ground and hit above him. They'll hide Isaac entirely, and while he's not protected from attacks, the plants will linger for about a second after the attack ends, concealing Isaac's next move.
• Down Smash is Quake, where Isaac creates two small earthquakes to either side. Has great range, and knocks opponents upwards for an aerial combo.
• Grab is a standard grab, and the pummel has him transfer psynergy from his hand to damage the opponent.
• Up Throw is an upwards toss followed by a rock from Down Special falling on the opponent. Can be acted out of before the rock hits, allowing for follow-up opportunity.
• Forward Throw is a simple toss forwards. Has high base knockback, getting opponents a good distance away from Isaac, but low knockback scaling. It won't KO opponents anytime soon.
• Down Throw is Thorn. Super-spiky plants grow on the ground beside Isaac as he slams the opponent down, knocking them upwards. A good combo throw, and can be acted out of super-early.
• Back Throw has the hand appear and pick up the opponent. Isaac then turns around, swings his arm with his fist clenched as the hand mirrors the motion (like Sonic's side smash's charging animation), and throws the opponent backwards. A great KO throw.
• Final Smash is Gaia, where rocks come out from the ground and rise up at high speeds, dealing immense knockback. Like PK Starstorm from Brawl, but reversed.

But I digress.

We have weapon wielders already. Unless they bring something special they're not going to be playable. Like I said, SK's either going to be a Marth style character or a Link style one. He doesn't have any big gimmicks that translate over to Smash well, and we have every real character "class" that benefits from having a sword. He'd actually be just another swordsman.

I see you missed a major focus of my post, then. Also, "weapon wielders" is a rather broad term to define a character by.

The gameplay of using the shovel is the same as a sword. Does it actually make a real difference if he swings up or down? If the weapon is utilized like what we've already got, it's not worth including by itself.

The shovel itself isn't supposed to be the sole incentive to inklude him. That's what the other, more unique stuff is for. Although the shovel swings would at the very least lead to different animations and hitbox placements, and also some unique effects like pitfalling (for certain moves).

If you were paying attention to the topic you'd know I've 100%ed Shovel Knight mode. And have since 100%ed Plague Knight's campaign and the challenge mode. I know how the character works... SK isn't known for fast grounded movement. So, you have to make him powerful to compensate. So he'd end up somewhere between Ike and Link depending on how many projectiles you give him. Am I wrong?

He's known for being agile in the air, though. That could compensate for it, as could the unique gameplay presented by the gem bags. Also, as Zesty pointed out, speed and power are far from the only ways to compensate for weaknesses.

Like I've said before, your ideas for a gameplan for SK makes it easy to be broken, in both senses.

I'm sure that Sakurai and his team of professionals could make it balanced.

And even then the whole idea is remarkably similar to Pac-Man if you want to include reshaping the stage...

When does Pac-Man reshape the stage?

Although I don't think reshaping the stage would work for balance reasons and system reasons. You'd have to build the stages with being altered in mind, and even if you did I don't know if the 3DS could handle the collision of four SKs and their constructs.

Fair enough. The sacks could still work though, although they might have to have a lower frame rate or something.

Anyway, I may as well go over some of the more unique relics and how they could be used.

The Throwing Anchor is a powerful upwards projectile, something that hasn't really been seen in Smash. It could also latch onto ledges for a recovery, dealing damage as the anchor travels. Rather than regular tether grabs, which automatically lock onto nearby ledges, the anchor would have to be aimed so that it hits the ledge in its throwing arc. Probably an Up Special.

The Mobile Gear is essentially a platform that moves along the ground. This hasn't been done before in Smash, and could open up powerful approach options, similarly to how wavedashing did in Melee. It also goes up walls, making it useful for recovering on certain stages. Probably a Down Special.

The Propeller Dagger grants a small amount of horizontal movement while attacking, and is rather quick. Not many moves do this in Smash with such short range and quick activation, and it'd open up a lot of mobility, follow-up, comboing, and recovery options. Either a Side Special or possibly a fair/bair like Villager's slingshot.

The Fishing Rod (with a mini anchor for a hook) could have multiple uses. Normally, it could be cast forwards as a long-range projectile before being reeled in to deal damage on the way back, and knock opponents towards SK for combos. Next to a ledge, it'd be dangled below said ledge and then be reeled up, great for edgeguarding. Possibly a smash attack.

And then you've got stuff like the Chaos Sphere, Dust Knuckles, Flare Wand, War Horn, etc that, while being similar to other moves, could be used to fill out the moveset (as if we haven't already done that, between the relics, gem bag concept, digging, and shovel attacks).

 

[Cutie Gwen]

So why is Chrom the only one this applies to? Shulk has his Monado Arts... If he didn't, he'd just be a worse Ike.

Because Chrom has the same body build as Ike yet a similar sword style to Marth.
Don't ****ing say that. I main both Ike and Shulk, rarely use the Arts and both feel nothing alike. Now I remember why I had you on ignore. Gonna go Kamiya on you again then

 

[FunAtParties]

Everyone needs to chill. This is a discussion not a war.

 

[Munomario777]

Everyone needs to chill. This is a discussion not a war.

But this is the internet, no discussion can last for more than five seconds before turning into a heated, anger-filled debate!

(Not to say that I'm really angry at anyone or anything, just aiming to convey my points.)

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Everyone needs to chill. This is a discussion not a war.

But...Muh shovelry...
*hasn't actually bought the game yet but will buy the physical release*

 

[LancerStaff]

But he doesn't swing up or down, he pokes forward like, you know, digging with a shovel. Whether or not you feel that's worthy of implementation doesn't mean that him having a shovel is in and of itself like a sword. Like I said, out of Link's dair, no attacks even really remotely resemble how Shovel Knight attacks.

Speed and Power aren't the only two options. Jump height, weight, projectiles, traps, and range are all things that can be taken into account. I see SK as a slow character with middling power, terrible speed, heavy, with good jump height, decent range, and a strong projectile/trap game. I think a balanced character can come from that.

As for your question, I guess the best way to describe him would be a Link, but even that would be stretching it as his projectiles would be very different in effect, and he should jump much higher.

Still makes the same hitboxes. Especially when you look at the actual hitboxes for things like Marth's jab... The actual gameplay function is 100% the same.

You don't see any other newcomers described as "like X but with Y," where Y is a basic attribute instead of a major gimmick. You don't see any character like that besides the clones, really.

I beg to differ:


But I digress.

I see you missed a major focus of my post, then. Also, "weapon wielders" is a rather broad term to define a character by.

The shovel itself isn't supposed to be the sole incentive to inklude him. That's what the other, more unique stuff is for. Although the shovel swings would at the very least lead to different animations and hitbox placements, and also some unique effects like pitfalling (for certain moves).

He's known for being agile in the air, though. That could compensate for it, as could the unique gameplay presented by the gem bags. Also, as Zesty pointed out, speed and power are far from the only ways to compensate for weaknesses.

I'm sure that Sakurai and his team of professionals could make it balanced.

When does Pac-Man reshape the stage?

Fair enough. The sacks could still work though, although they might have to have a lower frame rate or something.

Anyway, I may as well go over some of the more unique relics and how they could be used.

The Throwing Anchor is a powerful upwards projectile, something that hasn't really been seen in Smash. It could also latch onto ledges for a recovery, dealing damage as the anchor travels. Rather than regular tether grabs, which automatically lock onto nearby ledges, the anchor would have to be aimed so that it hits the ledge in its throwing arc. Probably an Up Special.

The Mobile Gear is essentially a platform that moves along the ground. This hasn't been done before in Smash, and could open up powerful approach options, similarly to how wavedashing did in Melee. It also goes up walls, making it useful for recovering on certain stages. Probably a Down Special.

The Propeller Dagger grants a small amount of horizontal movement while attacking, and is rather quick. Not many moves do this in Smash with such short range and quick activation, and it'd open up a lot of mobility, follow-up, comboing, and recovery options. Either a Side Special or possibly a fair/bair like Villager's slingshot.

The Fishing Rod (with a mini anchor for a hook) could have multiple uses. Normally, it could be cast forwards as a long-range projectile before being reeled in to deal damage on the way back, and knock opponents towards SK for combos. Next to a ledge, it'd be dangled below said ledge and then be reeled up, great for edgeguarding. Possibly a smash attack.

And then you've got stuff like the Chaos Sphere, Dust Knuckles, Flare Wand, War Horn, etc that, while being similar to other moves, could be used to fill out the moveset (as if we haven't already done that, between the relics, gem bag concept, digging, and shovel attacks).

Bandana Dee is probably the most possible out of everybody mentioned, but it'd be hard to balance the extreme range between FFAs and 1v1s. Not really impossible like your SK idea, but hard.

Not really, no. Disjointed hitbox A is disjointed hitbox A. Physical hitbox A is also physical hitbox A, hence Sakurai not wanting to include Little Mac just because he's a boxer. Very little difference between a punch, a kick, a chop, a poke, or anything else like that.

No, but the others were implying that they would include SK just because he has a shovel and not a sword. Again, zero practical difference.

They couldn't even fix Samus and ZSS, Zelda and Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer without splitting them appart. Not every idea will work.

How do you deal with holes and boulders? Jumping over them or attacking them. How do you deal with trampolines and fire hydrants? Jumping over or attacking them. Add in the whole "charging up for something" thing and what you've ended up with is Pac-Man with a sword.

We have powerful upwards and downwards hitboxes. Stitching two other moves together doesn't make something new or creative.

Mobile gear is probably the best thing SK's got, but even then it's not a notable aspect of the character and there'd most likely have to be serious restrictions on what can be done while riding it. Otherwise it'd be a better spindash, and that's a move that'd bump anybody up a tier or two.

Propeller Dagger would be pretty overpowered even if it moved even half as far as it does in the game. There's a good reason we don't have a fast move with a hitbox that really moves the character...

Because Chrom has the same body build as Ike yet a similar sword style to Marth.
Don't ****ing say that. I main both Ike and Shulk, rarely use the Arts and both feel nothing alike. Now I remember why I had you on ignore. Gonna go Kamiya on you again then

They're fundamentally similar characters, sans Arts. Long range, powerful, and slow. The character competitive impressions thread is convinced that Ike is largely a better Shulk even considering the Arts... No need to make him literally a worse Ike.

 

[Munomario777]

You don't see any other newcomers described as "like X but with Y," where Y is a basic attribute instead of a major gimmick. You don't see any character like that besides the clones, really.

Right. Shovel Knight wouldn't really fill the same role as any other fighter; not far beyond "he has a sword-like weapon," anyways. As for unique features, see my previous posts.

Bandana Dee is probably the most possible out of everybody mentioned, but it'd be hard to balance the extreme range between FFAs and 1v1s. Not really impossible like your SK idea, but hard.

It can be done, if Shulk and other swordfighters are any indication.

Not really, no. Disjointed hitbox A is disjointed hitbox A. Physical hitbox A is also physical hitbox A, hence Sakurai not wanting to include Little Mac just because he's a boxer. Very little difference between a punch, a kick, a chop, a poke, or anything else like that.

Yes, but the hitboxes being low to the ground -- like shovel swings -- could tie well into other aspects of the moveset. For instance, if Shovel Knight has moves that bury foes, then low-to-the-ground hitboxes -- like tilts where he swings the shovel in a digging motion -- could be helped greatly by the foe being lower from the pitfall effect. Or a shovel swing could knock the gem bags and such up into the air. That sorta thing.

No, but the others were implying that they would include SK just because he has a shovel and not a sword. Again, zero practical difference.

Then I suppose this isn't my discussion.

They couldn't even fix Samus and ZSS, Zelda and Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer without splitting them appart. Not every idea will work.

Technical limitations =/= balance issues.

How do you deal with holes and boulders? Jumping over them or attacking them. How do you deal with trampolines and fire hydrants? Jumping over or attacking them.

I can see where you're coming from, although they'd allow Shovel Knight to do different things; boulders would provide a reliable platform to stand on and attack (the fire hydrant's water and time limit prevents this from being the case), and pits in the ground would allow him to evade projectiles, as well as attacking in unique ways using the terrain.

Add in the whole "charging up for something" thing and what you've ended up with is Pac-Man with a sword.

I don't see how a charging move makes one character similar to another. Heck, every character has chargeable smashes.

We have powerful upwards and downwards hitboxes.

Yes, but none with this sort of upwards reach. It'd be a potent combo extender, anti-air move, et cetera.

Stitching two other moves together doesn't make something new or creative.

That's why I made it a unique recovery, as a tether that doesn't auto-snap to the ledge (and thus takes some skill to use) as well as a powerful upwards projectile, which hasn't been seen in Smash before.

Mobile gear is probably the best thing SK's got, but even then it's not a notable aspect of the character and there'd most likely have to be serious restrictions on what can be done while riding it. Otherwise it'd be a better spindash, and that's a move that'd bump anybody up a tier or two.

Or it could be slowed down a bit.

Propeller Dagger would be pretty overpowered even if it moved even half as far as it does in the game. There's a good reason we don't have a fast move with a hitbox that really moves the character...

I don't see how it'd be overpowered, especially when fighters like Jigglypuff can accomplish a similar feat by using an aerial in combination with insane aerial control.

They're fundamentally similar characters, sans Arts. Long range, powerful, and slow. The character competitive impressions thread is convinced that Ike is largely a better Shulk even considering the Arts... No need to make him literally a worse Ike.

Shulk has longer range and is faster than Ike, at the cost of less power. I'm beginning to doubt that you've played either one of these characters... they're very different to play as. Ike's a heavy hitter with super-laggy moves, and Shulk has amazing reach and adaptability. They feel different, they play different, they strategize different, and they are different.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Right. Shovel Knight wouldn't really fill the same role as any other fighter; not far beyond "he has a sword-like weapon," anyways. As for unique features, see my previous posts.

It can be done, if Shulk and other swordfighters are any indication.

Yes, but the hitboxes being low to the ground -- like shovel swings -- could tie well into other aspects of the moveset. For instance, if Shovel Knight has moves that bury foes, then low-to-the-ground hitboxes -- like tilts where he swings the shovel in a digging motion -- could be helped greatly by the foe being lower from the pitfall effect. Or a shovel swing could knock the gem bags and such up into the air. That sorta thing.

Then I suppose this isn't my discussion.

Technical limitations =/= balance issues.

I can see where you're coming from, although they'd allow Shovel Knight to do different things; boulders would provide a reliable platform to stand on and attack (the fire hydrant's water and time limit prevents this from being the case), and pits in the ground would allow him to evade projectiles, as well as attacking in unique ways using the terrain.

I don't see how a charging move makes one character similar to another. Heck, every character has chargeable smashes.

Yes, but none with this sort of upwards reach. It'd be a potent combo extender, anti-air move, et cetera.

That's why I made it a unique recovery, as a tether that doesn't auto-snap to the ledge (and thus takes some skill to use) as well as a powerful upwards projectile, which hasn't been seen in Smash before.

Or it could be slowed down a bit.

I don't see how it'd be overpowered, especially when fighters like Jigglypuff can accomplish a similar feat by using an aerial in combination with insane aerial control.

Shulk has longer range and is faster than Ike, at the cost of less power. I'm beginning to doubt that you've played either one of these characters... they're very different to play as. Ike's a heavy hitter with super-laggy moves, and Shulk has amazing reach and adaptability. They feel different, they play different, they strategize different, and they are different.

This guy said we should give up because only some Sonic characters will make it through the ballot and he started bashing every character possible for being slightly similar or not unique, I recommend ignoring his arguments

 

[FunAtParties]

Still makes the same hitboxes. Especially when you look at the actual hitboxes for things like Marth's jab... The actual gameplay function is 100% the same.

Not really... The hitboxes for SK's jab would probably be shorter, kinda straight forward, repetitive, and it wouldn't extend to the handle, while the knockback would most likely send the opponent directly back. Marth's swooshes on funny angles in opposing directions, and sends the opponent on weird angles, as well. From even the most unimaginative standpoint, they're very little alike.

You don't see any other newcomers described as "like X but with Y," where Y is a basic attribute instead of a major gimmick. You don't see any character like that besides the clones, really.

Not true at all; in fact, when in fan discussions, that's almost exclusively how they are described. It comes from an uncertainty standpoint, and how humans naturally tend to make patterns. Go on any fan thread and you'll see at least a couple moves/statistics that say "like __", it's more shocking when they're not seen this way, as it's easier to describe your intentions with something that can actually be visualized or felt. Even then "I guess the best way to describe him would be a Link, but even that would be stretching it as his projectiles would be very different in effect, and he should jump much higher" is only describing the basic understanding of SK's supposed balance of stats and not much else.

What's funny is we all want characters completely original and ect... but we ignore the fact that no character is completely, 100% unique. Most characters share statistics, basic playstyles, and one or two attacks (how many characters features a drill kick, sex kick, roundhouse, backflip kick?), I see no reason why Shovel Knight should be discriminated against for doing the same. What I have to ask is: How many heavy, slow characters have great air mobility with solid projectiles and traps? If the answer is 1 or none, I feel like that more than justifies the character's inclusion.

 

[Manic Rykker]

I see you missed a major focus of my post, then. Also, "weapon wielders" is a rather broad term to define a character by.

Hm.. Going slightly off topic from what was going on, lets look and see just how many characters technically wield/use a weapon.

Spoiler

- Uses a mechanized hammer

- Two-handed sword wielded with a single hand

- The Master sword

- Sword

- Buster gun

- Wouldn't pikmin count as a weapon? I mean he is hitting people with em XD (Not to mention the fact he is nearly WORTHLESS without them.)

- Uses her arm cannon

- The master sword again

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword


And if you want to get technical.. (the following characters technically use weapons in their attacks/an attack)

- Peanut gun

- Blaster, and reflector device

- Uses the weapons of several "weapon wielders" in his copy abilities, and uses a hammer of his own in an attack

- golf club, frying pan, or a tennis racket. Also throws veggies as a weapon.

- Palutena's bow. This thing fires arrows, AND can be broken up into two swords..

- Same case as Pit

- Fights using various items and objects as weapons

- Paralyser

- Blaster and reflector device.

- Uses weapons in his attacks, provided by his Junior Clown Car. (Wouldn't that be a weapon as well?..)

Oh. would you look at that. That's 22 characters.. Weapon wielder really is a broad term XD. It's kinda funny how many characters use some form of weapon either in all, or in some of their attacks.

 

[Morbi]

Hm.. Going slightly off topic from what was going on, lets look and see just how many characters technically wield/use a weapon.

Spoiler

- Uses a mechanized hammer

- Two-handed sword wielded with a single hand

- The Master sword

- Sword

- Buster gun

- Wouldn't pikmin count as a weapon? I mean he is hitting people with em XD (Not to mention the fact he is nearly WORTHLESS without them.)

- Uses her arm cannon

- The master sword again

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword


And if you want to get technical.. (the following characters technically use weapons in their attacks/an attack)

- Peanut gun

- Blaster, and reflector device

- Uses the weapons of several "weapon wielders" in his copy abilities, and uses a hammer of his own in an attack

- golf club, frying pan, or a tennis racket. Also throws veggies as a weapon.

- Palutena's bow. This thing fires arrows, AND can be broken up into two swords..

- Same case as Pit

- Fights using various items and objects as weapons

- Paralyser

- Blaster and reflector device.

- Uses weapons in his attacks, provided by his Junior Clown Car. (Wouldn't that be a weapon as well?..)

Oh. would you look at that. That's 22 characters.. Weapon wielder really is a broad term XD. It's kinda funny how many characters use some form of weapon either in all, or in some of their attacks.

Despite it being a broad term, I am surprised that there are only 22 weapon wielders. That is not even half of the characters in the game.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

I really wonder what would happen if shovel knight got in.Like i really would like to see what sakurai would do with him.Especially the reactions.I wonder how people would feel about that

 

[RosaPeach]

I want Shovel Knight so I could hit Ganondorf and Ryu with my shovel.

 

[IceBreakerXY]

BTW has sakurai ever added a newcomer from a new franchise to the game who was a clone of anybody?Like i don't think any new franchises has ever had a clone get in to rep them

 

[LancerStaff]

Right. Shovel Knight wouldn't really fill the same role as any other fighter; not far beyond "he has a sword-like weapon," anyways. As for unique features, see my previous posts.

It can be done, if Shulk and other swordfighters are any indication.

Yes, but the hitboxes being low to the ground -- like shovel swings -- could tie well into other aspects of the moveset. For instance, if Shovel Knight has moves that bury foes, then low-to-the-ground hitboxes -- like tilts where he swings the shovel in a digging motion -- could be helped greatly by the foe being lower from the pitfall effect. Or a shovel swing could knock the gem bags and such up into the air. That sorta thing.

Then I suppose this isn't my discussion.

Technical limitations =/= balance issues.

I can see where you're coming from, although they'd allow Shovel Knight to do different things; boulders would provide a reliable platform to stand on and attack (the fire hydrant's water and time limit prevents this from being the case), and pits in the ground would allow him to evade projectiles, as well as attacking in unique ways using the terrain.

I don't see how a charging move makes one character similar to another. Heck, every character has chargeable smashes.

Yes, but none with this sort of upwards reach. It'd be a potent combo extender, anti-air move, et cetera.

That's why I made it a unique recovery, as a tether that doesn't auto-snap to the ledge (and thus takes some skill to use) as well as a powerful upwards projectile, which hasn't been seen in Smash before.

Or it could be slowed down a bit.

I don't see how it'd be overpowered, especially when fighters like Jigglypuff can accomplish a similar feat by using an aerial in combination with insane aerial control.

Shulk has longer range and is faster than Ike, at the cost of less power. I'm beginning to doubt that you've played either one of these characters... they're very different to play as. Ike's a heavy hitter with super-laggy moves, and Shulk has amazing reach and adaptability. They feel different, they play different, they strategize different, and they are different.

To go off on a tangent, Bandana Dee suffers from the same problem the Ridley mod does, although not as much. It'd be hard to make the character accurate and balanced... I mean, basically every attack would be as big as Shulk's Fsmash. Not something you can work out without seeing it in action, yaknow? He'd be by design an extreme character. Small, light, but the longest range normals of any character.

Basically the only moves that can't hit a buried opponent are Utilts and Usmashes. Heck, even Marth's Usmash has hitboxes on the ground. There's really no point.

Sakurai then said that transformations were highly flawed to begin with, and that it's a good thing they had to be scrapped.

Hiding in the ground would be overpowered... Completely ruins most character's projectile game and it'd be laughably easy to just camp in there. The platform would work if not for the limitations, but unless SK had a really good way to deal with projectiles up top he'd have to just hide behind it like Pac does with the hydrant.

Pac puts traps down to stall for keys, SK puts down traps to stall for money bags. Surely you see the resemblance? Especially with the traps being similar.

Palutena Usmash (although it's not a projectile), Pikachu Thunder, and Megaman's Air Shooter are all upwards moving and powerful projectiles. Then we have Thunder again, Villager's bowling balls, and Megaman's Hard Knuckle for downwards. Can't be fast and powerful without a severe limitation...

If mobile gear were slower, then it'd just be a highly telegraphed walk with a weak/no hitbox.

It's quite the opposite. Jigglypuff is bottom five because she outright lacks any way to deal with retreating opponents. Even dashes have a commitment... You can't just make an attack with no commitment, that's why Sheik's Fair is OP. Don't need another attack like that.

Shulk may move faster then Ike, but his relevant frame data is worse. The range doesn't mean much the vast majority of the time... Without Arts Shulk doesn't have anything over Ike. Without Arts Shulk would not be playable, because he'd just be another Ike with slightly more reach.

Not really... The hitboxes for SK's jab would probably be shorter, kinda straight forward, repetitive, and it wouldn't extend to the handle, while the knockback would most likely send the opponent directly back. Marth's swooshes on funny angles in opposing directions, and sends the opponent on weird angles, as well. From even the most unimaginative standpoint, they're very little alike.


Not true at all; in fact, when in fan discussions, that's almost exclusively how they are described. It comes from an uncertainty standpoint, and how humans naturally tend to make patterns. Go on any fan thread and you'll see at least a couple moves/statistics that say "like __", it's more shocking when they're not seen this way, as it's easier to describe your intentions with something that can actually be visualized or felt. Even then "I guess the best way to describe him would be a Link, but even that would be stretching it as his projectiles would be very different in effect, and he should jump much higher" is only describing the basic understanding of SK's supposed balance of stats and not much else.

What's funny is we all want characters completely original and ect... but we ignore the fact that no character is completely, 100% unique. Most characters share statistics, basic playstyles, and one or two attacks (how many characters features a drill kick, sex kick, roundhouse, backflip kick?), I see no reason why Shovel Knight should be discriminated against for doing the same. What I have to ask is: How many heavy, slow characters have great air mobility with solid projectiles and traps? If the answer is 1 or none, I feel like that more than justifies the character's inclusion.

Not really, no. Marth's jab 1 does exactly that... Combos into a bunch of moves, including Fsmash with the right spacing. Also has no hitboxes above his waist.

Not even close. Jump height doesn't mean much of anything unless it's as bad as Dorfs... Different projectiles, whee. He has not one, but two incredibly generic projectiles that travel forward. It's not like the boomerangs where they come back, and the arrows on each Link have both raw power and combo power covered. Still a carbon copy of Link. Might as well make it aLBW Link and get it over with.

Okay, so? I don't think anybody wants a bunch of lame and uninspired characters... People want more Megamans and Pac-Mans and Little Macs, not just another swordsman.

Robin, Megaman. That's two.

 

[Kenith]

Hm.. Going slightly off topic from what was going on, lets look and see just how many characters technically wield/use a weapon.

Spoiler

- Uses a mechanized hammer

- Two-handed sword wielded with a single hand

- The Master sword

- Sword

- Buster gun

- Wouldn't pikmin count as a weapon? I mean he is hitting people with em XD (Not to mention the fact he is nearly WORTHLESS without them.)

- Uses her arm cannon

- The master sword again

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword

- Sword


And if you want to get technical.. (the following characters technically use weapons in their attacks/an attack)

- Peanut gun

- Blaster, and reflector device

- Uses the weapons of several "weapon wielders" in his copy abilities, and uses a hammer of his own in an attack

- golf club, frying pan, or a tennis racket. Also throws veggies as a weapon.

- Palutena's bow. This thing fires arrows, AND can be broken up into two swords..

- Same case as Pit

- Fights using various items and objects as weapons

- Paralyser

- Blaster and reflector device.

- Uses weapons in his attacks, provided by his Junior Clown Car. (Wouldn't that be a weapon as well?..)

Oh. would you look at that. That's 22 characters.. Weapon wielder really is a broad term XD. It's kinda funny how many characters use some form of weapon either in all, or in some of their attacks.

My god, look at all those Marth and Link clones!

Seriously...

 

[Munomario777]

To go off on a tangent, Bandana Dee suffers from the same problem the Ridley mod does, although not as much. It'd be hard to make the character accurate and balanced... I mean, basically every attack would be as big as Shulk's Fsmash. Not something you can work out without seeing it in action, yaknow? He'd be by design an extreme character. Small, light, but the longest range normals of any character.

The spear isn't that long...

Basically the only moves that can't hit a buried opponent are Utilts and Usmashes. Heck, even Marth's Usmash has hitboxes on the ground. There's really no point.

Fair enough. Perhaps a unique mechanic could be that scooping moves are better on pitfalled opponents, since shovels are good at digging stuff. I dunno. .-.

Sakurai then said that transformations were highly flawed to begin with, and that it's a good thing they had to be scrapped.

How does this pertain to balance, precisely?

Hiding in the ground would be overpowered... Completely ruins most character's projectile game and it'd be laughably easy to just camp in there. The platform would work if not for the limitations, but unless SK had a really good way to deal with projectiles up top he'd have to just hide behind it like Pac does with the hydrant.

The way I'm picturing it is creating some sort of crater, with gentle slopes at either side. These aren't my favorite ideas of the bunch; I was just throwing potential mechanics around.

Pac puts traps down to stall for keys, SK puts down traps to stall for money bags. Surely you see the resemblance? Especially with the traps being similar.

Except gem bags (which are the only sort of "trap" I'd implement into a moveset, for clarification) don't do anything like the trampoline or the hydrant. The hydrant spits water at you, the trampoline bounces you, the gem bag just kinda sits there.

Palutena Usmash (although it's not a projectile), Pikachu Thunder, and Megaman's Air Shooter are all upwards moving and powerful projectiles. Then we have Thunder again, Villager's bowling balls, and Megaman's Hard Knuckle for downwards. Can't be fast and powerful without a severe limitation...

Mega Man's uair isn't powerful, first off. Palutena's up smash is hard to land due to its limited reach, small hitbox, and extremely short duration, and isn't a projectile. Thunder travels from the top instead of the bottom, and isn't really the same as an upwards projectile that can also cover opponents who are coming down at you. The anchor would be different from them in a few ways. Firstly, it's powerful and travels upwards. It's quick enough to throw, but rather slow to travel. Additionally, it'd be a good general anti-air move, whereas Thunder comes from the top down and has a laggy start. Its large hitbox makes it easier to land than Thunder and Palutena's beam. It's a powerful vertical finisher too, especially at the end of an upwards combo. Its sole weakness? If it whiffs, Shovel Knight can't move until the anchor lands. It's like a long-ranged Rest in that sense, but not quite as strong for obvious reasons. Show me another character with that tool.

As for the downwards ones, the fishing rod has the unique property of retracting. You wait with your hook below the ledge, and then reel it in with great force to knock opponents upwards, bringing them to you for a follow-up attack.

If mobile gear were slower, then it'd just be a highly telegraphed walk with a weak/no hitbox.

The Mobile Gear also has the advantages of being above the ground (ergo, he can evade attacks more easily), you can charge moves during it, you can approach with attacks without stopping, et cetera.

It's quite the opposite. Jigglypuff is bottom five because she outright lacks any way to deal with retreating opponents. Even dashes have a commitment... You can't just make an attack with no commitment, that's why Sheik's Fair is OP. Don't need another attack like that.

I never said that it wouldn't have any commitment; only that it'd be rather quick. Here's a thought; the move can be canceled into another aerial at the end of the travel, but otherwise, he suffers a bit of ending lag. So you can still extend combos, but you can't retreat instantly after using the move.

Shulk may move faster then Ike, but his relevant frame data is worse. The range doesn't mean much the vast majority of the time... Without Arts Shulk doesn't have anything over Ike. Without Arts Shulk would not be playable, because he'd just be another Ike with slightly more reach.

I wouldn't say that having a lightsaber beam on top of a regular-sized sword is "slightly" more reach. Anyway, Shulk without Arts is rather irrelevant, as he does have the Arts, making him really stand out. Kinda like how Shovel Knight would have mechanics like the gem sacks.

Not even close. Jump height doesn't mean much of anything unless it's as bad as Dorfs... Different projectiles, whee. He has not one, but two incredibly generic projectiles that travel forward. It's not like the boomerangs where they come back, and the arrows on each Link have both raw power and combo power covered. Still a carbon copy of Link. Might as well make it aLBW Link and get it over with.

And now you've completely forgotten about unique mechanics, such as the gem sacks, improved (and thus more central to the gameplay) pogo bounce, Throwing Anchor, Mobile Gear, Propeller Dagger, Fishing Glove, and literally everything that I've brought up during this discussion.

Okay, so? I don't think anybody wants a bunch of lame and uninspired characters... People want more Megamans and Pac-Mans and Little Macs, not just another swordsman.

Pac-Man's standards are essentially all generic kicks and punches, aside from a few where he goes into his pie form (and still just creates normal hitboxes). Little Mac's are all generic punches, but they're super powerful (on the ground, anyways) to help make him stand out as a fighter. You bring up these unique fighters, but fail to see that they also have generic moves, both functionally and aesthetically. No fighter completely lacks generic moves. It's what's built around them that makes fighters unique.

Robin, Megaman. That's two.

I don't see any traps here, let alone ones closely resembling Shovel Knight's.

 

[FunAtParties]

Not really, no. Marth's jab 1 does exactly that... Combos into a bunch of moves, including Fsmash with the right spacing. Also has no hitboxes above his waist.

MArth's jab one doesn't do exactly that, and the rest of the things you're describing doesn't have anything to do with SK or the rest of what I said. I really don't know what you're going on about anymore.

Not even close. Jump height doesn't mean much of anything unless it's as bad as Dorfs... Different projectiles, whee. He has not one, but two incredibly generic projectiles that travel forward. It's not like the boomerangs where they come back, and the arrows on each Link have both raw power and combo power covered. Still a carbon copy of Link. Might as well make it aLBW Link and get it over with.

Tell that to characters that use high jumps and quick aerial mobility for combos. Different speeds, angles, effects can make those projectiles original/different and there's also creative liberty, but you're clearly going off your own narrative.

Okay, so? I don't think anybody wants a bunch of lame and uninspired characters... People want more Megamans and Pac-Mans and Little Macs, not just another swordsman.

The point was all characters borrow attacks from others, but that doesn't make them clones/unoriginal. Yoshi is one of the most original characters in the game, but shares attacks with Mario, Fox, and Link. I don't think that's hurt his originality one bit.

Robin, Megaman. That's two.

That's not two. Robins a middleweight, and I wouldn't call his aerial movement a plus seeing that they're in the middle of both of those rankings too. MegaMan counts for weight and air speed, but his jump height is middle tier. So you still don't have one.

He's different, you don't have to like the idea of him being in the game, but to think that he's not different is foolish. You can go on and carry out the ten conversations you still currently have, but I think it'd be easier to just admit that a heavy, hi-jumping, shovel-wielder, with multiple projectiles is a unique character as anyone.

 

[Megadoomer]

So why is Chrom the only one this applies to? Shulk has his Monado Arts... If he didn't, he'd just be a worse Ike. No doubts he wouldn't even be in the game. The Miis in general are very stitched together, being a collection of different aspects of different characters rather then having a true gameplay niche. The point is that they're custom characters, and their gameplans change significantly depending on how you build them with their moves and size. Everybody else... I don't see them being especially suited for Smash either.

We have weapon wielders already. Unless they bring something special they're not going to be playable. Like I said, SK's either going to be a Marth style character or a Link style one. He doesn't have any big gimmicks that translate over to Smash well, and we have every real character "class" that benefits from having a sword. He'd actually be just another swordsman.

If you seriously think that every character who uses a weapon would be a Marth or a Link clone, that's just sad. Chrom was excluded because he's extremely similar to Marth in terms of appearance, weapon, fighting style, abilities, etc., while Robin brings something new to the table as far as Fire Emblem is concerned.

That's not really comparable to characters like Shulk (who represents an entire series that's fairly popular and has a weapon that works considerably differently from an ordinary sword), Isaac (who is a mage that uses a different type of magic from what Robin uses), Bandanna Dee (who doesn't even use a sword), or Shovel Knight (who, as this topic has demonstrated, has a lot to work with thanks to his various shovel attacks and his relics)

 

[LancerStaff]

My god, look at all those Marth and Link clones! View attachment 78149
Seriously...

Not how it works. Weapon =/= moveset. A weapon is merely a visual... Characters don't get in over visuals, they get in because of movesets. Shulk isn't playable because he uses a sword, Robin isn't playable because he uses tomes, and Little Mac isn't playable because he's a boxer. Shulk's playable because of Monado Arts, Robin's playable because tomes run out, and Little Mac's playable because "ain't no air fighter." Otherwise, where's the "unique" weapons? Why do FE swordsmen get to be playable when there's plenty of other weapons to use?

The spear isn't that long...

Fair enough. Perhaps a unique mechanic could be that scooping moves are better on pitfalled opponents, since shovels are good at digging stuff. I dunno. .-.

How does this pertain to balance, precisely?

The way I'm picturing it is creating some sort of crater, with gentle slopes at either side. These aren't my favorite ideas of the bunch; I was just throwing potential mechanics around.

Except gem bags (which are the only sort of "trap" I'd implement into a moveset, for clarification) don't do anything like the trampoline or the hydrant. The hydrant spits water at you, the trampoline bounces you, the gem bag just kinda sits there.

Mega Man's uair isn't powerful, first off. Palutena's up smash is hard to land due to its limited reach, small hitbox, and extremely short duration, and isn't a projectile. Thunder travels from the top instead of the bottom, and isn't really the same as an upwards projectile that can also cover opponents who are coming down at you. The anchor would be different from them in a few ways. Firstly, it's powerful and travels upwards. It's quick enough to throw, but rather slow to travel. Additionally, it'd be a good general anti-air move, whereas Thunder comes from the top down and has a laggy start. Its large hitbox makes it easier to land than Thunder and Palutena's beam. It's a powerful vertical finisher too, especially at the end of an upwards combo. Its sole weakness? If it whiffs, Shovel Knight can't move until the anchor lands. It's like a long-ranged Rest in that sense, but not quite as strong for obvious reasons. Show me another character with that tool.

As for the downwards ones, the fishing rod has the unique property of retracting. You wait with your hook below the ledge, and then reel it in with great force to knock opponents upwards, bringing them to you for a follow-up attack.

The Mobile Gear also has the advantages of being above the ground (ergo, he can evade attacks more easily), you can charge moves during it, you can approach with attacks without stopping, et cetera.

I never said that it wouldn't have any commitment; only that it'd be rather quick. Here's a thought; the move can be canceled into another aerial at the end of the travel, but otherwise, he suffers a bit of ending lag. So you can still extend combos, but you can't retreat instantly after using the move.

I wouldn't say that having a lightsaber beam on top of a regular-sized sword is "slightly" more reach. Anyway, Shulk without Arts is rather irrelevant, as he does have the Arts, making him really stand out. Kinda like how Shovel Knight would have mechanics like the gem sacks.

And now you've completely forgotten about unique mechanics, such as the gem sacks, improved (and thus more central to the gameplay) pogo bounce, Throwing Anchor, Mobile Gear, Propeller Dagger, Fishing Glove, and literally everything that I've brought up during this discussion.

Pac-Man's standards are essentially all generic kicks and punches, aside from a few where he goes into his pie form (and still just creates normal hitboxes). Little Mac's are all generic punches, but they're super powerful (on the ground, anyways) to help make him stand out as a fighter. You bring up these unique fighters, but fail to see that they also have generic moves, both functionally and aesthetically. No fighter completely lacks generic moves. It's what's built around them that makes fighters unique.

I don't see any traps here, let alone ones closely resembling Shovel Knight's.

It changes size when he uses it. It's twice as long when he uses even his shortest ranged attack. Actually, I think there's only the two sizes.

Transformations were flawed gameplay and balance wise. Not only did they require you to learn two or three characters to use effectively (outside of Zelda technically) one was often just better for the situation almost every time rather then being a real team. ZSS couldn't really use Final Smashes or she'd be stuck with two lengthy transformation animations... Pokemon Trainer just didn't work, and Zelda and Sheik together doesn't add anything to either of them.

When I was talking about the traps I was referring to the hole and the boulder.

Good anti-airs are safe. This is not... If it can be combo'd into, then we have plenty of killing Uspecials that can be combo'd into already. Actually, the only difference from those is that there's an attack downwards and SK stays in place. Those are minor differences at best. You're trying to force a bunch of little gimmicks rather then come up with something coherent.

We have quick punish only moves already. This one combos instead of dealing a bunch of damage... Not a big difference.

The size of the beam changes depending on the attack, and Shulk has a tendency to hold it much closer to his body then needed. The range doesn't matter anyway thanks to the endlag. He's still just a worse Ike without Arts.

No, most of these mechanics aren't unique. They're just slightly different versions of things we already have, and aren't coherent. Most of them are just overpowered.

These characters have unique movesets. When put all together they add up to something more, to a central gameplan. Here with SK his moves don't actually work with each other. You're making them all combo, for some reason, but it doesn't add up to something only SK can really do. Who else has to manage Pikmin or usage? Who else can change their base attributes? Who else can pressure the opponent like Wario can with the Waft? How many characters have only one advantage, that advantage being pure power? One of each. How many characters have disjoints? How many characters have traps? How many characters have low ground speed and high air speed? Plenty.

Trapping an opponent doesn't just mean placing down an object, it means controlling how they close the game.

MArth's jab one doesn't do exactly that, and the rest of the things you're describing doesn't have anything to do with SK or the rest of what I said. I really don't know what you're going on about anymore.


Tell that to characters that use high jumps and quick aerial mobility for combos. Different speeds, angles, effects can make those projectiles original/different and there's also creative liberty, but you're clearly going off your own narrative.


The point was all characters borrow attacks from others, but that doesn't make them clones/unoriginal. Yoshi is one of the most original characters in the game, but shares attacks with Mario, Fox, and Link. I don't think that's hurt his originality one bit.

That's not two. Robins a middleweight, and I wouldn't call his aerial movement a plus seeing that they're in the middle of both of those rankings too. MegaMan counts for weight and air speed, but his jump height is middle tier. So you still don't have one.

He's different, you don't have to like the idea of him being in the game, but to think that he's not different is foolish. You can go on and carry out the ten conversations you still currently have, but I think it'd be easier to just admit that a heavy, hi-jumping, shovel-wielder, with multiple projectiles is a unique character as anyone.

It's exactly the same move besides the animation, what are you talking about? How isn't it the same?

Not many characters besides those with multiple jumps would actually gain combos with more jump height... SK doesn't even jump that high in his own game. Jumps almost exactly like Megaman.

And people described playing as Yoshi as playing as the eggs he throws... He has a real gimmick.

Robin actually has something unique to make up for it, though. He's very much the same style. We have nearly every trapping character that could be made, we don't need yet another.

I don't hate SK, that's not my point. I'm saying he's not unique enough for Smash.

 

[FunAtParties]

It's exactly the same move besides the animation, what are you talking about? How isn't it the same?

I can't find a SK dig gif, but you played the game so you get the idea. I don't recall SK fully swiping over his head, in fact I'm pretty sure he doesn't go over his waist line. The effect would almost certainly be much different as well, with SK's almost directly knocking the character back (as said earlier), while Marth's sets up for combos. Honestly, I still don't get how you think they'd be the same.

Not many characters besides those with multiple jumps would actually gain combos with more jump height... SK doesn't even jump that high in his own game. Jumps almost exactly like Megaman.

Not many=/= none, Shovel Knight could be one of the few.
He jumps fairly high, maybe similar to Mega Man, but creative liberties can be made. This is all for balancing remember, if he was to be include him in the game he could be made stupid power, stupid heavy, whatever... It happens for the sake of balance, it's why Mewtwo is lighter than Pikachu, and is as slow as ****, to "balance" him. I see no reason SK can't have the same treatment if brought to the game.

And people described playing as Yoshi as playing as the eggs he throws... He has a real gimmick.

And Shovel Knight has a shovel. You can make a whole frickin' kit based on burying opponents if you so pleased. Sounds like a solid gimmick to me.

Robin actually has something unique to make up for it, though. He's very much the same style. We have nearly every trapping character that could be made, we don't need yet another.

I don't know how this turned into a Robin analysis, I thought he was only brought up in attempt to prove me wrong when I mentioned there are no heavies with great aerial movement. I don't think he's anywhere near the same style as SK if that's what you were trying to get at, and I don't believe we've even scratched the surface for trap characters yet, but that's a discussion for a different thread.

I don't hate SK, that's not my point. I'm saying he's not unique enough for Smash.

Never said you hate him, said that you don't like the idea of him being in the game, because he's not unique enough. Thing is, he could be, really any character can, but Shovel Knight already has a really interesting repertoire which is why I think so many have flocked to his side in the first place. You don't have to agree with those that think this, but then again doing so at a Shovel Knight support thread may not be the right place.

 

[LancerStaff]

I can't find a SK dig gif, but you played the game so you get the idea. I don't recall SK fully swiping over his head, in fact I'm pretty sure he doesn't go over his waist line. The effect would almost certainly be much different as well, with SK's almost directly knocking the character back (as said earlier), while Marth's sets up for combos. Honestly, I still don't get how you think they'd be the same.


Not many=/= none, Shovel Knight could be one of the few.
He jumps fairly high, maybe similar to Mega Man, but creative liberties can be made. This is all for balancing remember, if he was to be include him in the game he could be made stupid power, stupid heavy, whatever... It happens for the sake of balance, it's why Mewtwo is lighter than Pikachu, and is as slow as ****, to "balance" him. I see no reason SK can't have the same treatment if brought to the game.


And Shovel Knight has a shovel. You can make a whole frickin' kit based on burying opponents if you so pleased. Sounds like a solid gimmick to me.


I don't know how this turned into a Robin analysis, I thought he was only brought up in attempt to prove me wrong when I mentioned there are no heavies with great aerial movement. I don't think he's anywhere near the same style as SK if that's what you were trying to get at, and I don't believe we've even scratched the surface for trap characters yet, but that's a discussion for a different thread.


Never said you hate him, said that you don't like the idea of him being in the game, because he's not unique enough. Thing is, he could be, really any character can, but Shovel Knight already has a really interesting repertoire which is why I think so many have flocked to his side in the first place. You don't have to agree with those that think this, but then again doing so at a Shovel Knight support thread may not be the right place.

Dunno about you, but when I played the game I'd usually get two or three slashes at once. Not one and done.

Don't see it. Sword characters in Smash 4 don't lend themselves to having good combo games. Even Roy's is just okay...

We have characters with "stupid" power, speed, and the like. Yeah, you can just "come up" with a moveset but some designs are just more flexible then others. Simply having a sword dictates what the character can be like, and that requires the character to have and make use of it's range. We have every real overarching design that can be done with a sword that doesn't involve something big like tomes and Arts. Which is why all of our new sword users have had these gimmicks.

We have like ten characters who can bury opponents. It's literally a Little Mac situation all over again.

There's a difference between supporting a character and claiming they're a shoe-in because he uses a totally not sword thing.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

Can we all agree that arguing that every single character needs to be 100% unique with a roster that already has more than 50 characters is stupid? Tired of seeing this here

 

[FunAtParties]

Can we all agree that arguing that every single character needs to be 100% unique with a roster that already has more than 50 characters is stupid? Tired of seeing this here

That's what I've been trying to explain, but apparently it's not getting through. The only characters that I can think of that's even 90% unique is Peach and Mega Man. Outside of that there are a lot of patterns, which is not a bad thing by any means.

Dunno about you, but when I played the game I'd usually get two or three slashes at once. Not one and done.

It was the first jab which is what we were talking about, I don't know why you're being so difficult.

Don't see it. Sword characters in Smash 4 don't lend themselves to having good combo games. Even Roy's is just okay...

All the more reason SK has a serious opportunity to be unique.

We have characters with "stupid" power, speed, and the like. Yeah, you can just "come up" with a moveset but some designs are just more flexible then others. Simply having a sword dictates what the character can be like, and that requires the character to have and make use of it's range. We have every real overarching design that can be done with a sword that doesn't involve something big like tomes and Arts. Which is why all of our new sword users have had these gimmicks.

We'll just never agree that shovels and swords don't have to work anything alike, and until then the rest of the points aren't worth arguing, so let's just agree to disagree.

We have like ten characters who can bury opponents. It's literally a Little Mac situation all over again.

No one has a move set based around burying opponents, and that's the point I was trying make. SK could have that gimmick, not that he should, but if you wanted a gimmick then there ya go.

There's a difference between supporting a character and claiming they're a shoe-in because he uses a totally not sword thing.

I don't think anyone claimed he was a shoe-in, even ones that did would probably point at popularity and not the shovel. Uniqueness is what was argued here, not DLC probability based on weapons. I'm not even supporting the character and I had to say something because most of the stuff I'm hearing is highly suspect to say the least.

 

[LancerStaff]

Can we all agree that arguing that every single character needs to be 100% unique with a roster that already has more than 50 characters is stupid? Tired of seeing this here

I'd expect the new characters to be just as unique as the rest. Especially if it's a third party character, they need something big to get in.

All the more reason SK has a serious opportunity to be unique.


We'll just never agree that shovels and swords don't have to work anything alike, and until then the rest of the points aren't worth arguing, so let's just agree to disagree.


No one has a move set based around burying opponents, and that's the point I was trying make. SK could have that gimmick, not that he should, but if you wanted a gimmick then there ya go.



I don't think anyone claimed he was a shoe-in, even ones that did would probably point at popularity and not the shovel. Uniqueness is what was argued here, not DLC probability based on weapons. I'm not even supporting the character and I had to say something because most of the stuff I'm hearing is highly suspect to say the least.

Sword characters don't lend themselves to be combo heavy without being overpowered, as they've learned from previous games. MK has a sword and a great combo game, but the sword's stubby and his neutral is terrible. SK isn't going to have a bunch of projectiles and a great combo game, balance doesn't work that way.

Peel away the visual and look at the hitboxes. Can you tell the difference between a shovel and a sword?

Nobody has a moveset based around burying opponents because that doesn't make a moveset. It works as an extra quirk on certain moves and nothing more. It's like saying White Pikmin are unique because they deal poison damage.

...We just had multiple people come in and say that. Where have you been?

 

[FunAtParties]

Sword characters don't lend themselves to be combo heavy without being overpowered, as they've learned from previous games. MK has a sword and a great combo game, but the sword's stubby and his neutral is terrible. SK isn't going to have a bunch of projectiles and a great combo game, balance doesn't work that way.

Balance isn't simple, if it was characters that are strong/fast would always be the best. It doesn't work that way. With obvious flaws like being one of the slowest characters in the game, only middling power, strong aerial ability and projectiles can balance him out. Once again, this is speculative and in no way definitive, it was a suggestion to how SK could be balanced, changes can be made. I think it's also worth mentioning that his jump height could be solely for recovery, or only for kill set-ups and not zero-to-deaths or anything crazy like that.

Peel away the visual and look at the hitboxes. Can you tell the difference between a shovel and a sword?

Uh... yeah. I mean maybe if it stopped midway through, or the active hitboxes were on the lower half you'd have a point, but they aren't and you don't.

Nobody has a moveset based around burying opponents because that doesn't make a moveset. It works as an extra quirk on certain moves and nothing more. It's like saying White Pikmin are unique because they deal poison damage.

It's possible though because the character has a ****in shovel. With a little imagination, SK can have a bury-heavy move set. Although I personally think that'd be stupid, the point is I never said he even needed a gimmick, you did, and thus I made a very real possibility for one. I'd be totally cool with a character that jabs people with his shovel, lets chaos spheres loose, and drops anchors on people's heads, but apparently that's not enough so here we are.

...We just had multiple people come in and say that. Where have you been?

Admittedly I don't pay much attention to this thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were just misinterpreting what they were saying.

 

[Cutie Gwen]

'Peel away the visual and look at the hitboxes. Can you tell the difference between a shovel and a sword?' Aren't hitboxes just bubbles on literally everything? Besides, shovels are more similar to lances than swords because of the spade part on the end being bigger than the tip of a sword. How do you guys deal with these arguments? This guy is literally saying having similar moves means that the character can't be playable despite other third parties in Smash having literally the same thing. Sonic: Bair, Fair, Nair, Dair, jabs, Utilt, dtilt, Dsmash. Mega Man: Utilt, Up B, Dtilt (if hitboxes are any indication then Dedede), Fair. PacMan: Uair, Dair Bair,Dthrow, Ftilt, jabs...Why is Shovel Knight possibly getting a similar move such a crime yet these examples aren't

 

[FunAtParties]

'Peel away the visual and look at the hitboxes. Can you tell the difference between a shovel and a sword?' Aren't hitboxes just bubbles on literally everything? Besides, shovels are more similar to lances than swords because of the spade part on the end being bigger than the tip of a sword. How do you guys deal with these arguments? This guy is literally saying having similar moves means that the character can't be playable despite other third parties in Smash having literally the same thing. Sonic: Bair, Fair, Nair, Dair, jabs, Utilt, dtilt, Dsmash. Mega Man: Utilt, Up B, Dtilt (if hitboxes are any indication then Dedede), Fair. PacMan: Uair, Dair Bair,Dthrow, Ftilt, jabs...Why is Shovel Knight possibly getting a similar move such a crime yet these examples aren't

I've been putting up with it because I genuinely felt that they just weren't getting it, and I thought I might be able to clear up some of their misconceptions, but now I feel a little trolled. Some of the stuff that's being said is just so nonsensical, or blatantly ignoring of previous answers that I've given, that there's no way they could be serious about it. The hitboxes thing really cemented it for me.

 

[Munomario777]

LancerStaff

I gave you a coherent playstyle. You said the moves were too "generic." I gave you unique moves. And now you're back to saying that there isn't a coherent playstyle. I give you unique moves and mechanics to create a playstyle around, and then you go and say that he'd be just like Link. You say that you want Shovel Knight to be as unique as any other newcomer, when literally every other newcomer has multiple moves from other fighters. We give you unique things, like being a combo-y "sword" user, or a focus on pitfalls, and you say that since no one else does it, Shovel Knight shouldn't either. You say that hitboxes should be the only thing that's looked at to determine uniqueness, when most every move in Smash Bros. shares hitboxes with another. I give you the gem sack mechanic, and you say that it's "impossible to balance" and that he'd just play like Pac-Man. We give you examples of multiple sword users that play distinctly from one another, and yet you say that Shovel Knight would just be a Marth clone.

I'm not 100% sure that I follow, to put it lightly.

Now then, rather than replying to all your points individually, I'll simply make one large post, and then ask a simple question at the end.

SHOVEL KNIGHT'S MOVESET

Shovel Knight is rather slow on the ground and heavy, with slow but heavy-hitting attacks. In the air, he's a rather different beast, being agile and combo-ready with his quicker attacks. He has good jumping abilities, but his mediocre ground movement hinders him quite a bit. He has ways to make up for it, though.

Neutral and Down Special are similar to my moveset, linked above. Dig gems, use them to make sacks to bounce on. Perhaps with the change that gems are automatically added to SK's inventory when they hit the ground or an opponent.

Up Special is the Throwing Anchor. He throws it upwards in an arc, being a bit slow to start up. The anchor travels high into the air, albeit a bit slowly, and it's powerful if its large hitbox connects, but leaves SK wide open if it whiffs since the anchor is still traveling. It falls much more quickly than it ascends, and gets pulled back to Shovel Knight with surprisingly little lag upon hitting the ground or an opponent. A great follow-up to a vertically-launching attack, if you can land it right! For recovery, if the anchor connects with a ledge, it can pull SK up like other tethers. However, this one doesn't auto-snap to ledges, making it more skill-based. Bouncing on a gem sack is a more reliable option for recovering, but the Throwing Anchor is a viable backup.

Side Special is the Mobile Gear. It's placed on the ground in front of SK, and it's a platform about as wide as his helmet horns. He can stand on it, and it'll keep going, allowing him to approach while using attacks, something that's never been seen in Smash before. Barring wavedashing, that is, but that's not in Smash 4. Anyway, this is better than a walk because Shovel Knight is off the ground and thus protected from attacks, and can also move whilst using or charging moves, but it's got that pesky animation at the start. Gem sacks can be placed on this too, making for a mobile tool for Shovel Knight to use. For balancing, the platform keeps going after it's jumped off of, and Shovel Knight can't use another one until it disappears by getting its stamina depleted or falling off of a ledge. The platform can also scale walls, making for a situational recovery option. In midair, though, it falls straight down. It can deal damage to cover landings, but not that great for recovery, as can be imagined.

Forward and Down Smash are similar to my moveset; the Charge Handle and a dig to either side. The Charge Handle now shoots a projectile without being charged, albeit a weaker one.

Up Smash is similar to my moveset too -- the boulder dig -- but it has new interactions. They can bounce off of gem sacks, still dealing the same damage, making for some deadly traps with some setup. It can also go on top of the Mobile Gear, and depending on the size of the boulder, it'll either destroy the gear -- thus refreshing the move for SK to use again -- or it'll simply stay on top, making the mobile wall the gear provides even taller.

Dair is the signature pogo bounce, like in my moveset.

Fair and Bair are the Propeller Dagger, which sends Shovel Knight a short distance in either direction rather quickly. It can be canceled into an aerial attack at the end, but if it's not, Shovel Knight has a good bit of ending lag. That way, the move is still good for comboing and approaching, but isn't void of commitment either.

Uair is the Chaos Sphere. Shovel Knight throws a sphere upwards, which acts as a long-ranged upwards attack. If it misses, it'll fall to the ground, bouncing once and then disappearing, still able to hit foes. If Shovel Knight is moving sideways when he uses this move, it'll keep that horizontal momentum, allowing it more horizontal range.

Nair is a simple shovel stab forwards, perhaps functioning as a sex kick. Knocks opponents at an upwards angle.

Jab is a shovel swing, but a bit above the ground so it doesn't actually dig anything. It'll deal damage though, and scoop opponents up for upwards knockback.

Forward Tilt is the Dust Knuckles. Shovel Knight punches forwards with one fist, which is rather laggy but deals good damage for a tilt. If the button is pressed repeatedly like a jab combo, he can alternate fists for a bit less lag between uses. Good for getting opponents away, the main and obvious drawback being lag.

Down Tilt is the Flare Wand. It's a long-ranged tilt, as Shovel Knight crouches down and uses the Flare Wand to make a fireball close to the ground. It travels a decent distance albeit not very quickly, and can go over ledges too for edgeguarding. Useful for starting a combo from a distance, since it can get foes into hitstun effectively.

Up Tilt is similar to my moveset, a hop upwards that hits with the horns on his head.

Dash Attack is similar to the Side Special from my moveset.

Final Smash is the War Horn, an AOE move that deals a ton of damage to opponents within the radius.

Alright, unique moves? Check. Now for that "coherent playstyle" bit:

SHOVEL KNIGHT'S PLAYSTYLE

Shovel Knight plays rather similarly to how he does in my other moveset, with some differences. Dair is still a staple, his bread and butter. It's a great combo tool and a solid approach option, but it's also got some new uses when combined with other moves. For inkstance, the new aerials are all solid out of a pogo combo, with Fair and Bair being highlights of SK's aerial combo game. Down Smash is also great for setting up a Dair, as the small, jointed hitbox can make it hard to land otherwise. Shovel Knight's variety of ranged options give him a great keep-away game, which is great since he can use that distance to harvest gems, which in turn gives him one of his most powerful options, that being the gem sacks. They're great for recovery, comboing, approaching, or playing keep-away again.

As for other ranged options, Down Tilt is great against grounded foes, with little lag and good reach. Fsmash is a bit laggier, but now puts out a solid projectile, making it even more potent. Uair can deal some good damage and lead to comboing and approaching setups, especially with a bit of momentum. Speaking of comboing, SK is pretty dang good at it. Fair and Bair allow him to extend combos that might be out of reach for other fighters. For inkstance, Nair's upwards-forwards knockback is just begging for a Fair-to-Uair follow-up! Uair is also good for following up on combos such as a triple Dair above a gem sack. The meteor smash hits opponents downwards into the sack, they bounce up a long distance, and the Uair catches them on the way up. If you wanna be really daring, though, Up Special's got ya covered! Its high risk, high reward makes it great for finishing off those upwards combos. Side Special helps compensate for SK's bad ground mobility, as while it's only as fast as walking, he can move along the ground while attacking, an invaluable ability. Just use it sparingly, since it can't be used over and over again.

Overall, Shovel Knight is a zoner that also excels at up-close comboing, but needs to zone to enhance his up-close game. Gems are an invaluable resource, and must be managed well. Gem sacks open up options unprecedented by any other fighter, and his variety of relics all bring something different to the table for a variety of situations. His weaknesses are his recovery without gems, getting opponents off of him, and the fact that he must carefully balance up-close and long-range play to fight effectively. With that said, Shovel Knight is more than ready to steel thy shovel in the world of Smash!

I might actually go back and change my actual moveset now. But anyway, Lancer, that simple question I mentioned at the top:

Which Smash Bros. character plays like this?

 

[King Sonnn DeDeDoo]

Y'know theres a multitude of reasons I don't think shovel Knight will get into smash but move set potential is not one of them at all. You don't even have to get all fancy either with new mechanics either. Strait forward characters can be just as fun as the technical. either way, a boring ass moveset for a 3rd party didn't stop sonic.

Also I really like your moveset munomario777, I'd love him in smash if he played as you described. It's refreshing to see people post move sets again, it's one of my favorite parts of character speculation.

I'm not really a shovel knight supporter either, don't dislike him or anything, just haven't played his game and don't feel like he's that likely, but he screams moveset potential. Might pick up his game someday....

 

[Opossum]

Can I just address what seems to be a glaring misconception people seem to have?

There was more to Chrom's exclusion than just "too similar." A lot more. Sakurai was well aware of his popularity, and in his original, before-anything-was-finalized plans, Chrom was on the roster. When it came down to finally creating the characters/having a concrete roster to develop, he was dropped. Why? Time, from what we can assume. Marth and Ike were always intended to be playable in 4. That much is obvious. But Sakurai has been on record saying he wanted to add "an Awakening character." That makes the reason for his cut a lot more apparent. This is coming from someone who, mind you, is likely the biggest fan of Chrom on this site: Robin had more obvious potential than Chrom. To the average Joe, Chrom wouldn't be as mind-blowing as a mage with an electric sword and spells. The thing to also remember is that Sakurai outright said he made a moveset for Chrom: one that acted as a sort of middle-of-the-road between Marth and Ike. Could that have been better? Yeah. Weapon switching and self-healing and such, I could go on. But ultimately it seems like he had time for "an Awakening character" and chose Robin. Lucina was an afterthought for extra time. Hell, I'm willing to bet that if Chrom hadn't been in Robin's Final Smash, he'd have been used as DLC. And I mean, with the ballot, who knows, right? Let me dream with that part.



Saying that Shovel Knight is in Chrom's situation when their situations couldn't be more different is asinine. If anything Shovel Knight would be in a better position uniqueness-wise. Because yes, even at the very least, uniqueness via aesthetic is a form of uniqueness (not that a shovel is used anything like a sword, mind you).

 

[Munomario777]

Y'know theres a multitude of reasons I don't think shovel Knight will get into smash but move set potential is not one of them at all. You don't even have to get all fancy either with new mechanics either. Strait forward characters can be just as fun as the technical. either way, a boring *** moveset for a 3rd party didn't stop sonic.

Also I really like your moveset munomario777, I'd love him in smash if he played as you described. It's refreshing to see people post move sets again, it's one of my favorite parts of character speculation.

I'm not really a shovel knight supporter either, don't dislike him or anything, just haven't played his game and don't feel like he's that likely, but he screams moveset potential. Might pick up his game someday....

Glad to hear you liked it! If you're into reading and/or writing movesets, I'd recommend you come check out Make Your Move. It's a contest where we make movesets for all kinds of characters, from Nintendo to third parties all the way to stuff like anime or real life stuff. They're quite a bit more in-depth than what I posted here, come check it out! Even if you don't feel like writing any, there's years' worth of movesets ripe for the readin'!

I hear ya about Sonic's moveset, by the way. That's part of the reason why I made my own over at that Make Your Move thing. It's got more references to the games in both animation and mechanics, and also captures the classic theme of momentum and maintaining speed rather well if I do say so myself. Give it a read, I think you might enjoy it.

 

[LancerStaff]

Balance isn't simple, if it was characters that are strong/fast would always be the best. It doesn't work that way. With obvious flaws like being one of the slowest characters in the game, only middling power, strong aerial ability and projectiles can balance him out. Once again, this is speculative and in no way definitive, it was a suggestion to how SK could be balanced, changes can be made. I think it's also worth mentioning that his jump height could be solely for recovery, or only for kill set-ups and not zero-to-deaths or anything crazy like that.


Uh... yeah. I mean maybe if it stopped midway through, or the active hitboxes were on the lower half you'd have a point, but they aren't and you don't.


It's possible though because the character has a ****in shovel. With a little imagination, SK can have a bury-heavy move set. Although I personally think that'd be stupid, the point is I never said he even needed a gimmick, you did, and thus I made a very real possibility for one. I'd be totally cool with a character that jabs people with his shovel, lets chaos spheres loose, and drops anchors on people's heads, but apparently that's not enough so here we are.


Admittedly I don't pay much attention to this thread, but I wouldn't be surprised if you were just misinterpreting what they were saying.

You know who else has a great combo game and projectiles? Sheik. Don't need another, even just from a balance standpoint.

...Marth's hitboxes on his jab do stop midway through.

How many full characters lack gimmicks? None. He needs one.

Nope, somebody literally said that a shovel would be more interesting then a sword.

'Peel away the visual and look at the hitboxes. Can you tell the difference between a shovel and a sword?' Aren't hitboxes just bubbles on literally everything? Besides, shovels are more similar to lances than swords because of the spade part on the end being bigger than the tip of a sword. How do you guys deal with these arguments? This guy is literally saying having similar moves means that the character can't be playable despite other third parties in Smash having literally the same thing. Sonic: Bair, Fair, Nair, Dair, jabs, Utilt, dtilt, Dsmash. Mega Man: Utilt, Up B, Dtilt (if hitboxes are any indication then Dedede), Fair. PacMan: Uair, Dair Bair,Dthrow, Ftilt, jabs...Why is Shovel Knight possibly getting a similar move such a crime yet these examples aren't

Hitboxes, hitboxes relative to the character... How specific do I have to be with you people?

Because he absolutely lacks a new and coherent moveset. I've been saying the entire time that having a shovel =/= having a unique moveset.

-snip-

The gems idea doesn't work because of balance, and (previously) SK lacked a way to get the opponent to the gem bags. That's not coherent.

You know why we're going around in circles? You're looking at what I say separately instead of the whole. Character uniqueness is very important, but one or two moves doesn't instantly make a character unique. They need to have a completely different gameplan from everybody else. Not MK with poor ground movement, not Marth with a lame projectile, not Link but jumps higher. Some ideas can legitimately be too hard to balance... Look at Ridley.

It's interesting... Actually, it's looking much better then before. I like the idea of keeping his projectiles limited to certain situations, although you still need to keep things somewhat conservative. Mobile Gear + Flare Wand would probably be too good unless Flare Wand had a bunch of endlag, but then if it had the endlag then it wouldn't be safe anymore. Perhaps if SK's crouch was that one pixel squat and he still held the wand at a normal height then it wouldn't be a problem.

But now the gem bags are the problem again. Now that SK has good projectiles, he can camp all too easily below it. It needs to be easily removed somehow, to the point where even Little Mac can actually get in. Either that or his up-close game needs to suffer, and that'd put him back in the Link/Duck Hunt territory. So then if they're easily removed, then grabbing gems becomes too much effort for not much reward. Which then puts him somewhere around Pit, but from the sounds of it he'd just be better because he can force approaches more strongly and up close he's much more potent. Something's gotta give, but if it does then he's going to end up like somebody else.

Y'know theres a multitude of reasons I don't think shovel Knight will get into smash but move set potential is not one of them at all. You don't even have to get all fancy either with new mechanics either. Strait forward characters can be just as fun as the technical. either way, a boring *** moveset for a 3rd party didn't stop sonic.

Also I really like your moveset munomario777, I'd love him in smash if he played as you described. It's refreshing to see people post move sets again, it's one of my favorite parts of character speculation.

I'm not really a shovel knight supporter either, don't dislike him or anything, just haven't played his game and don't feel like he's that likely, but he screams moveset potential. Might pick up his game someday....

Not many characters can camp without projectiles... Sonic's the only one that can on a decent stage.

Can I just address what seems to be a glaring misconception people seem to have?

There was more to Chrom's exclusion than just "too similar." A lot more. Sakurai was well aware of his popularity, and in his original, before-anything-was-finalized plans, Chrom was on the roster. When it came down to finally creating the characters/having a concrete roster to develop, he was dropped. Why? Time, from what we can assume. Marth and Ike were always intended to be playable in 4. That much is obvious. But Sakurai has been on record saying he wanted to add "an Awakening character." That makes the reason for his cut a lot more apparent. This is coming from someone who, mind you, is likely the biggest fan of Chrom on this site: Robin had more obvious potential than Chrom. To the average Joe, Chrom wouldn't be as mind-blowing as a mage with an electric sword and spells. The thing to also remember is that Sakurai outright said he made a moveset for Chrom: one that acted as a sort of middle-of-the-road between Marth and Ike. Could that have been better? Yeah. Weapon switching and self-healing and such, I could go on. But ultimately it seems like he had time for "an Awakening character" and chose Robin. Lucina was an afterthought for extra time. Hell, I'm willing to bet that if Chrom hadn't been in Robin's Final Smash, he'd have been used as DLC. And I mean, with the ballot, who knows, right? Let me dream with that part.



Saying that Shovel Knight is in Chrom's situation when their situations couldn't be more different is asinine. If anything Shovel Knight would be in a better position uniqueness-wise. Because yes, even at the very least, uniqueness via aesthetic is a form of uniqueness (not that a shovel is used anything like a sword, mind you).

No. Chrom was in the exact same camp as Alph and Dark Pit. He would of been filler. Yes, he would of been playable if things went differently, but as an in-between of Marth and Ike like you said. I have no reason to believe that he was going to be anything more then a faster Ike with Marth's specials... Probably the only reasons he didn't make him playable was because Lucina was easier (matching Marth's frame) and more popular. I have no reason to believe Sakurai consider a unique moveset for him. Had he been playable he'd be just another swordsman like Lucina, and absolutely nothing more.