Multiple characters per third-party *franchise* is now a thing!

[Xebenkeck]

I disagree. Final Fantasy is an important gaming franchise, and Cloud is the most recognizable. Honestly Cloud deserved his spot as FF’s rep due to his legacy in the series, and FF deserved a character thanks to its influence and impact on gaming as a whole.

I don't disagree Cloud is the most important and recognizable FF character. I'm just saying that from Nintendo's history with the franchise, Cloud really has no Nintendo affiliation. FF1-6 were on Nintendo consoles.(NES, Famicon, SNES) Where 7 onwards were not. Thats why to me he seems the most odd out of all third party characters because his game literally was never on a Nintendo console.

Everyone else has been, Sonic, Snake, Megaman, Ryu, Pac-man and even Bayonetta 2 was ported to a Nintendo console.

 

[Captain Shades]

I don't disagree Cloud is the most important and recognizable FF character. I'm just saying that from Nintendo's history with the franchise, Cloud really has no Nintendo affiliation. FF1-6 were on Nintendo consoles.(NES, Famicon, SNES) Where 7 onwards were not. Thats why to me he seems the most odd out of all third party characters because his game literally was never on a Nintendo console.

Everyone else has been, Sonic, Snake, Megaman, Ryu, Pac-man and even Bayonetta 2 was ported to a Nintendo console.

I see your point, but I’m pretty sure Sakurai said something about how he wanted characters from 3rd parties to be historical to gaming as a whole, not just Nintendo. This seems to fit every character’s reasoning.

Cloud - Main protagonist of FF7, the most beloved entry in the biggest RPG franchise. FF is basically the most known RPG franchise outside of Pokémon, and many pull influence from it, and since 7 was the pinnacle of the series to many, I feel he fits.

Sonic - Mascot of the second biggest gaming company in the 90s, creating the ultimate rivalry between Sega and Nintendo. Sonic not only introduced more ‘organic’ level design in 2D platformers, having loops and hills instead of straight paths, but Sonic also introduced personality in a big way, being one of the first game characters to have idle animations, and a real identity.

Ryu - From one of the most influential fighting game franchises, Street Fighter. The game fighting game as notable as SF is Mortal Kombat, but Street Fighter had one of the biggest influences on fighting games, mainly of the cartoony variety.

Snake - Metal Gear Solid 4 was considered one of the best games ever made. It took full advantage of cutscenes, portraying a story that gripped players in. If anything, Metal Gear really helped in pushing more cinematic and story driven games up.

Mega Man - a platforming legend from the NES. Many take influence on the style of Mega Man for 2D platformers.

Pac-Man - It’s Pac-Man, the biggest arcade franchise ever. He really doesn’t need an explanation.

Bayonetta - She’s a rule breaker, as Bayonetta was yet to really leave an impact on the industry even though most see her as the perfection of the action genre, being better than Devil May Cry. She mainly got in due to Nintendo buying out her sequel’s productions, making her a somewhat defacto Nintendo character. She has clearly become Nintendo’s M-Rated title.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

Also in Cloud and Final Fantasy's case, while FF7 is not on a Nintendo console, Cloud made several appearances such as in Theatrhythm or FF Explorers. Even some handled Kingdom Hearts games if I recall well.

All in all, he is still the face of a franchise with long history with Nintendo, although he appeared after that "Nintendo Golden Age" of FF. He was also the most requested FF character!

 

[DarthEnderX]

The solution here is obvious.

Nintendo has to buy Capcom, Konami and SquareEnix!

 

[Captain Shades]

The solution here is obvious.

Nintendo has to buy Capcom, Konami and SquareEnix!

Looking at Capcom’s financial standing, they probably could. Heck, why not take Sega as well, they are obviously needing help.

 

[EricTheGamerman]

I'm fine with multiple characters from third parties, and from specific third party franchises. I think they just need to be evaluated on an individual basis as opposed to following a set "rule." Mainly, they need to be iconic and *real characters* to even earn a spot as a third party rep in the first place. Using that criteria, someone like Tails can easily make his way into the game while choosing Roll from Mega Man feels off (I'm not trying to say Roll isn't entirely un-important, but she's of a considerably less notable level than Tails is to Sonic for example).

*Real Characters: I'm defining real characters as characters that have their own personality attributes and do more than just act as the vehicle/playable avatar/silent protagonist for their games. I believe NIntendo can get away with this, but I'm of the opinion that third parties should be oozing with personality and flair to be included. They should be a big deal each time they're included, and inclusions shouldn't be done likely. As much as I may individually love Skyrim, Doom, or Minecraft, their respective playable leads don't scream charm to me in the same way that Snake, Sonic, or the others do. Those games are either more focused on their gameplay or the worlds your using the character to explore, and as such, using their characters as representation doesn't feel entirely right to me.

 

[Captain Shades]

I'm fine with multiple characters from third parties, and from specific third party franchises. I think they just need to be evaluated on an individual basis as opposed to following a set "rule." Mainly, they need to be iconic and *real characters* to even earn a spot as a third party rep in the first place. Using that criteria, someone like Tails can easily make his way into the game while choosing Roll from Mega Man feels off (I'm not trying to say Roll isn't entirely un-important, but she's of a considerably less notable level than Tails is to Sonic for example).

*Real Characters: I'm defining real characters as characters that have their own personality attributes and do more than just act as the vehicle/playable avatar/silent protagonist for their games. I believe NIntendo can get away with this, but I'm of the opinion that third parties should be oozing with personality and flair to be included. They should be a big deal each time they're included, and inclusions shouldn't be done likely. As much as I may individually love Skyrim, Doom, or Minecraft, their respective playable leads don't scream charm to me in the same way that Snake, Sonic, or the others do. Those games are either more focused on their gameplay or the worlds your using the character to explore, and as such, using their characters as representation doesn't feel entirely right to me.

Yo, how do you feel about my boy Rayman? He is the peak of charm in terms of platforming mascots.

 

[Teeb147]

Why not have 2 from each company. Some already have more with ATs, so yeah.
I think SquareEnix could def have more reps. I like a lot of characters from FF, and while I'd love to see Tifa in there, I think a moogle would just make the most sense
Sora would be fine too I guess ..

 

[Skyblade12]

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/slippery-slope

A per-company or per-franchise limit wouldn't hurt, but don't pretend that we'll suddenly get SpongeBob or Goku in Smash just because they're allowing multiple characters per franchise.

Snake gets in.
“Add Sonic!”

Sonic gets in.
“Add Mega Man!”

Mega Man gets in.
“Add Cloud!”

Cloud gets in.
“Add Shadow the Hedgehog!”

No. It’s not a slippery slope, it’s exactly what we’ve seen happening with the fan base and the games. It’s not a road I want to travel down. Right now, we have gaming icons who have had a huge impact. There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu. Letting in a much more minor character would fundamentally change the balance of the roster. One per series. Because if there is no limit, it’s no longer Smash.

 

[DarthEnderX]

It’s not a road I want to travel down.

I do.

There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu.

Well...that's nonsense. Ryu might not even be the most iconic SF character.

 

[Captain Shades]

Isn’t Chun-Li one of the most recognizable characters from Street Fighter, up there with Ryu. She honestly has around the same popularity if not more by now.

Plus Shadow could easily be an echo. He is the second most popular Sonic character for a reason, and the fact that he has his own game helps his case in how he can break off from Sonic. I believe Shadow deserves a roster slot, and no, the slippery slope wouldn’t happen.

 

[Erotic&Heretic]

There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu. Letting in a much more minor character would fundamentally change the balance of the roster. One per series. Because if there is no limit, it’s no longer Smash.

Well, I'm probably biased, but considering how Chun-Li is always the second pick after Ryu when it comes to crossovers. Ryu appeared more, but she is close to him.
To me, Chun-Li and Shadow are the safest pick when it comes to adding more characters. And while I want Chun-Li I don't believe it will happen. On the other hand, I don't really want Shadow but I believe in his inclusion as an echo.

 

[Brindor]

I'm down for more 3rd Parties just so long as isn't Minions Rabbids, jesus christ I hate those things.

 

[Teeb147]

I'm down for more 3rd Parties just so long as isn't Minions Rabbids, jesus christ I hate those things.

They're whacky. so why not. But tbh, they wouldnt add them before Rayman. I mean, they could, and they could even have mario and peach outfits lol. But I I think it'd be weird when rayman is more ubisoft...

 

[True Blue Warrior]

There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu.

Nah, that's not true. Ken and Chun Li are also really iconic Street Fighter characters.

 

[Kirby Dragons]

If we did get one, it should be a Sonic character IMO. The series' supporting cast is more iconic than other supporting casts. I think a character like Tails, Knuckles, or Shadow would fit in well.

 

[Blue_Sword_Edge]

Snake gets in.
“Add Sonic!”

Sonic gets in.
“Add Mega Man!”

Mega Man gets in.
“Add Cloud!”

Cloud gets in.
“Add Shadow the Hedgehog!”

No. It’s not a slippery slope, it’s exactly what we’ve seen happening with the fan base and the games. It’s not a road I want to travel down. Right now, we have gaming icons who have had a huge impact. There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu. Letting in a much more minor character would fundamentally change the balance of the roster. One per series. Because if there is no limit, it’s no longer Smash.

I think you're partially right. While I think the fanbase has demonstrated that they would start thinking certain requests are now reasonable if lesser third party characters get added, where I think you're wrong is where Street Fighter has no character considered as iconic as Ryu. I also agree with you with having limits.

For the part I agree with, we already hear people think Kakarot (Dragon Ball's Goku) is legitimate thanks to Cloud Strife. Cloud did appear on Nintendo platforms, which seems to be the actual requirement, and not "debut game must be on Nintendo platforms" argument. This does appear to many people's eyes excuse Kakarot, when it actually doesn't. There's a fallacy that disregards the truth value strictly on the base of someone committing a fallacy and not analyzing the truth value and/or not offering counter arguments called "fallacy fallacy" or another name would be "appeal to logic". Although I do like the idea of bringing in third-party character with an already present franchise or company, I am aware of what could happens afterwards.

Another part where I agree with you on is limits. Yeah, I think there should be limits, however, I would make said limits described clearly and without ambiguous meaning. Some people disregard or don't even know about certain limits that keep some events relating to Smash from happening, say the budget or self imposed. Hence, it might be wise (not all the time) for a developer not to listen to fan suggestions. As for the actual limits themselves, I cannot say what exact limits I would propose myself.

Here's where I disagree with you. Street Fighter has more than just Ryu for iconic characters. Chun Li is often brought up in similar vain as Ryu and appear in almost as many games as he did. Some people has even dubbed Chun Li as one of the "First ladies of gaming" to which that term could also apply to the likes of Samus Aran. I think Chun Li can be a reasonable character for Smash, but I can't see her being an instant lock in.

 

[Quillion]

Snake gets in.
“Add Sonic!”

Sonic gets in.
“Add Mega Man!”

Mega Man gets in.
“Add Cloud!”

Cloud gets in.
“Add Shadow the Hedgehog!”

No. It’s not a slippery slope, it’s exactly what we’ve seen happening with the fan base and the games. It’s not a road I want to travel down. Right now, we have gaming icons who have had a huge impact. There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu. Letting in a much more minor character would fundamentally change the balance of the roster. One per series. Because if there is no limit, it’s no longer Smash.

You think too much of the destination and too little about the path.

I think their gradual approach to introducing more and more third party characters is just fine. Like I said, Echoes would be a good initial step towards giving us multiple third party characters per franchise. They can make unique ones in a later game.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Right now, I consider "the bar" to be Bayonetta.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bayonetta as a character, and I enjoy her games, but she is WAY less iconic than any of the other 3P characters. So for me, that's my bar for how low on the totem pole a 3P character can be.

And, frankly, there are a lot of secondary characters in the 3P franchises we have already that are more iconic than Bayonetta. Zero, Wily, Chun Li, Guile, several FF characters. All deserving of a slot more than Bayo, and don't have to be excluded because of some arbitrary fan rule.

 

[Putuk]

I think while they sound prioritize newcomers for Nintendo-owned properties, I really don't see any issue whatsoever if they manage to cramp in some Echo Fighters at the end, such as Ken or Shadow.

At this point the Smash roster already features the majority of the big Nintendo characters (with only a few key figures missing, such as Inkling and Ridley that are both being added), so I'm thinking adding 3rd parties isn't really as huge a deal.

Another thing that sorta bugs me is that people seem way too worried about the "purity" of Smash as a Nintendo crossover fighter, instead of just thinking if adding a 3rd party character would make people happy.

 

[Quillion]

Right now, I consider "the bar" to be Bayonetta.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bayonetta as a character, and I enjoy her games, but she is WAY less iconic than any of the other 3P characters. So for me, that's my bar for how low on the totem pole a 3P character can be.

And, frankly, there are a lot of secondary characters in the 3P franchises we have already that are more iconic than Bayonetta. Zero, Wily, Chun Li, Guile, several FF characters. All deserving of a slot more than Bayo, and don't have to be excluded because of some arbitrary fan rule.

Say we get a very iconic character that hasn't made a Nintendo console appearance, not even in spinoffs. (e.g. Tracer from Overwatch)

What happens then?

 

[Oddball]

Snake gets in.
“Add Sonic!”

Sonic gets in.
“Add Mega Man!”

Where you not around back in the day? People wanted Sonic and Megaman as far back as melee, way before Snake.

There is no Street Fighter character that is even close to as iconic as Ryu.

Chun-li got her own movie.

 

[Captain Shades]

Right now, I consider "the bar" to be Bayonetta.

Don't get me wrong, I like Bayonetta as a character, and I enjoy her games, but she is WAY less iconic than any of the other 3P characters. So for me, that's my bar for how low on the totem pole a 3P character can be.

And, frankly, there are a lot of secondary characters in the 3P franchises we have already that are more iconic than Bayonetta. Zero, Wily, Chun Li, Guile, several FF characters. All deserving of a slot more than Bayo, and don't have to be excluded because of some arbitrary fan rule.

Is Bayonetta even a third party at this point? Nintendo practically bought her out, or else the second installment wouldn’t have happened. Even at E3, when people were looking at props, the only ‘third party’ character to get anything for Smash was Bayonetta. Nintendo seems to have consumed her franchise for the purpose of having an M-Rated exclusive. Bayonetta is more Nintendo than 3rd party at this point.

As for ‘the bar’, I would say that this game will probably break that, since I personally believe an indie rep will get in. Whether it’s Shovel Knight for how much Nintendo supports him and his popularity, Commander Video for his Smash trophy, Shantae for her popularity, or even f@#&ing Sans as Sakurai has taken in interest in Undertale. I feel some smaller indie will make their splash in Smash.

 

[Teeb147]

Say we get a very iconic character that hasn't made a Nintendo console appearance, not even in spinoffs. (e.g. Tracer from Overwatch)

What happens then?

frankly, it was nintendo's rule that they had to have shown up on a nintendo console.
Some people think nintendo broke that rule for Cloud, but:
"Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (GBA)
Kingdom Hearts: reCoded (DS)
Theatrhythm Final Fantasy (3DS)
Final Fantasy Explorers (3DS)"

That said, there's no reason why nintendo can't break it. But people latch onto it, partly for good reason. But yeah it's weird for fans to get upset over characters that some people might like getting in, regardless. I do think that over 3 from a 3rd party franchise would be too much, personally, but so long as it's liked characters, I say the more the merrier. I find 2 is a good number, just feeling it out.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Is Bayonetta even a third party at this point?

Nintendo does not own Platinum, and doesn't own Bayonetta. If they wanted to pay for it themselves, there is nothing keeping Platinum from putting the next Bayonetta game on whatever platforms it wants.

 

[Quillion]

frankly, it was nintendo's rule that they had to have shown up on a nintendo console.
Some people think nintendo broke that rule for Cloud, but:
"Kingdom Hearts: Chain of Memories (GBA)
Kingdom Hearts: reCoded (DS)
Theatrhythm Final Fantasy (3DS)
Final Fantasy Explorers (3DS)"

That said, there's no reason why nintendo can't break it. But people latch onto it, partly for good reason. But yeah it's weird for fans to get upset over characters that some people might like getting in, regardless. I do think that over 3 from a 3rd party franchise would be too much, personally, but so long as it's liked characters, I say the more the merrier. I find 2 is a good number, just feeling it out.

That's not even a rule. Sakurai himself called it a "courtesy" in his enumeration of his rules for third party characters.

 

[Teeb147]

That's not even a rule. Sakurai himself called it a "courtesy" in his enumeration of his rules for third party characters.

Fair enough, I haven't kept up with the actual quotes. One of the things I meant to say is that it's on nintendo's end for how far they're willing to go. I do think it'd look weird if a non-nintendo francise had more than 2 characters in smash, but I don't see a real good reason to be against it in whatever case. Smash bros would just be even more known as a game mashup, not just a nintendo mashup with exceptions

 

[Captain Shades]

Nintendo does not own Platinum, and doesn't own Bayonetta. If they wanted to pay for it themselves, there is nothing keeping Platinum from putting the next Bayonetta game on whatever platforms it wants.

Sorry, I kind of meant it as a joke, since Nintendo pushes her franchise hard, its almost like she is an official Nintendo character at this point.

Fair enough, I haven't kept up with the actual quotes. One of the things I meant to say is that it's on nintendo's end for how far they're willing to go. I do think it'd look weird if a non-nintendo francise had more than 2 characters in smash, but I don't see a real good reason to be against it in whatever case. Smash bros would just be even more known as a game mashup, not just a nintendo mashup with exceptions

Smash has always been a Nintendo centered mashup, so moving away from that would feel unnatural. I do agree that some franchises do deserve a second rep, but I want Nintendo to be the priority first and foremost, which is why I personally didn’t like all the emphasis on 3rd parties during Wii U’s DLC. It felt....Wrong.

 

[Uffe]

No. If Captain Falcon hasn't gotten his rival, Samurai Goroh, or the main protagonist of F-Zero, Black Shadow, despite being in every Smash game, then an extra 3rd party character from the same franchise needs to get in line.

 

[DarthEnderX]

No. If Captain Falcon hasn't gotten his rival, Samurai Goroh, or the main protagonist of F-Zero, Black Shadow, despite being in every Smash game, then an extra 3rd party character from the same franchise needs to get in line.

Fully declone Ganondorf. Add Black Shadow that plays like old Ganondorf.

 

[Idon]

Fully declone Ganondorf. Add Black Shadow that plays like old Ganondorf.

I wish, but 17 years paints a pure picture on what Sakurai wants.

Anyway, for the topic on hand,
There are an ocean of characters to choose from each company alone and you want another fish from the same small pond?
That's a hell no for me. I have tons of characters I'd rather choose than a series as already represented.

 

[Uffe]

Fully declone Ganondorf. Add Black Shadow that plays like old Ganondorf.

I don't know how Black Shadow was portrayed in the F-Zero anime, but in F-Zero GX, he had a projectile that binded Captain Falcon. I would hope they would at least make an effort on the character if he was added. Of course for some reason, Melee Ganondorf was given the exact same moves as Captain Falcon. I'll never understand why. They could have used OoT Ganondorf as a reference. At least now he appears to play different in Ultimate.

 

[Captain Shades]

I wish, but 17 years paints a pure picture on what Sakurai wants.

Anyway, for the topic on hand,
There are an ocean of characters to choose from each company alone and you want another fish from the same small pond?
That's a hell no for me. I have tons of characters I'd rather choose than a series as already represented.

Not all ponds are small you know.

Sonic has a cast that rivals the likes of Mario in recognizability and diversity, so I wouldn’t mind seeing another member of the Sonic crew join Smash.

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Honestly, I would like it if the third-party franchises we got have more fighters. I really want Tails. Raiden making an appearance in both Playstation All-Stars and Smash would be pretty awesome. Blinky would be a unique character with the other ghosts as alts. I've read a leak about Chun-Li appearing in the game (though that leak said Smash 5 would be a port). And besides, the roster will still be mostly Nintendo because of all the veterans, only seven are third-party. There's still over 60 Nintendo characters. The three confirmed newcomers for Ultimate are Nintendo. It should be okay to give new reps to the third-parties since they are a minority. It will still be considered a Nintendo all-star game.

 

[Capybara Gaming]

Really, the only one I'd be ok with is Tails, simply because he's the Luigi to Sonic's Mario, and the two companies had a long-standing rivalry that's now a distant, faded memory.

But generally speaking, I'd rather it JUST be one per franchise. Celebration of gaming or not, it is primarily a Nintendo brawler. It's why I hate the idea of Shadow (whom I'm already not particularly fond of) making it in, Echo Fighter or not.

 

[GalactaKnight4545]

#shadow4smash

 

[Sean Wheeler]

Really, the only one I'd be ok with is Tails, simply because he's the Luigi to Sonic's Mario, and the two companies had a long-standing rivalry that's now a distant, faded memory.

But generally speaking, I'd rather it JUST be one per franchise. Celebration of gaming or not, it is primarily a Nintendo brawler. It's why I hate the idea of Shadow (whom I'm already not particularly fond of) making it in, Echo Fighter or not.

Yep, I want Tails over Shadow. Shadow should remain as an Assist Trophy even when we have Knuckles. That April Fool's Joke from Melee could come true for Ultimate. And besides, why should both Sonic characters be hedgehogs?

 

[Idon]

Not all ponds are small you know.

Sonic has a cast that rivals the likes of Mario in recognizability and diversity, so I wouldn’t mind seeing another member of the Sonic crew join Smash.

Yes, but what about an ENTIRELY different pond with ENTIRELY different fish?
I'd rather be resources be put into that (if it's a franchise I like anyways).

 

[GalactaKnight4545]

Was shadow spotted in green hill zone at e3?

 

[Putuk]

Was shadow spotted in green hill zone at e3?

Shadow never was in Green Hill Zone, he was always an AT.
And since this AT is now mysteriously absent, people speculate he's being promoted to Echo Fighter.