Should Palutena get special treatment since she has pre unlocked customs?

[❤ Nikodemus05]

Just like mii fighters get the exception to use all of their customs in some tournaments, shouldn't Palutena also get this? Not only is it fair(er), but the ease of access is no problem.

 

[ぱみゅ]

She should not. No character should get special treatment, Miis included.

 

[Doruge]

Miis can use their alternate moves when customs are off. Palutena cannot. If you give her special treatment then you are basically running a customs-on tournament at that point.

 

[Raijinken]

Everyone should get special treatment.

 

[san.]

I think it's worth trying out in your local scene to see how it works out.

These problems will need to be addressed:

-Opponents being able to use customs if you choose Palutena
-If the above is true, what happens if you switch off Palutena (can the opposing player still use customs)
-If the above is true, what happens if you decide to use Palutena later on in the set. (player could've been able to use customs earlier)

I think opponents being able to use customs is more fair but it's a lot more complex than just allowing Palutena to use hers.

 

[FairyLip]

It should depend on the TO, but I think if Miis are allowed, Palutena should be as well. If nothing else, give her 1112 and only 1112, because she basically entirely relies on Lightweight.

 

[JipC]

I dont see why she would get special treatment just for that. Miis can use customs when customs are off, Palutena cant, so as much as I disagree with letting Miis use ANY customs at a non-customs tourney, she should be treated just like any other characer

 

[1FC0]

It should depend on the TO, but I think if Miis are allowed, Palutena should be as well. If nothing else, give her 1112 and only 1112, because she basically entirely relies on Lightweight.

In that case give R.O.B. 1131 because High Speed Burner is generally superior to Robo Burner and if we are going to make exceptions based on noncompetitive criteria then we might as well include R.O.B. too.

 

[Mario766]

The main problem with allowing Palutena customs compared to allowing Mii Brawler customs is you actually have to turn on custom characters to allow Palutena customs, which means that EVERYONE ELSE gets to use customs because you can't allow just one character to have customs in a tournament. That isn't fair.

 

[FairyLip]

In that case give R.O.B. 1131 because High Speed Burner is generally superior to Robo Burner and if we are going to make exceptions based on noncompetitive criteria then we might as well include R.O.B. too.

Sorry, I forgot to include that her customs seemed to have been balanced the most, and her defaults seemed to be the most randomly selected. Kirby even has quotes for her other Nspecs.

 

[PK Gaming]

Palutena should get special treatment because she's a goddess. and a hottie. goddess hottie.

 

[Goesasu]

Shulk and Palutena share horrible frame data, the worst of the entire cast actually. Why do you people think this is? Because both of them share the ability to become super fast mobile characters with their specials. Both characters were built keeping this in mind explaining the bad frame data.

This game was made taken custom moves into account but some people are too close minded too see it.

 

[Otterz]

I dont see why she would get special treatment just for that. Miis can use customs when customs are off, Palutena cant, so as much as I disagree with letting Miis use ANY customs at a non-customs tourney, she should be treated just like any other characer

The thing is, she isn't just any character. She was designed specifically with customs in mind, where as all the other characters, besides Miis, had customs as extras, as variations of their original specials. Palutena's customs are entirely different moves. I don't necessarily see it as special treatment when that's how she was designed to be used in the first place. The fact that her customs are not available with the custom switch off on the CSS is the biggest issue holding her back IMO.

 

[FairyLip]

Goseasu, I never actually heard that point before, and I have to say, that's genius. Seriously, I've been a huge advocate for custom Pally in tournaments for a long time, but I never, ever thought about Shulk. I'm pretty sure Shulk has better frame data, although I haven't played around with him as much as I have Palutena.

 

[Goesasu]

Goseasu, I never actually heard that point before, and I have to say, that's genius. Seriously, I've been a huge advocate for custom Pally in tournaments for a long time, but I never, ever thought about Shulk. I'm pretty sure Shulk has better frame data, although I haven't played around with him as much as I have Palutena.

Could anyone imagine what would happen if Shulk or Palutenas frame data was as good as ANY other character? Or from another point of view, what would happen if ANY other chaacter could have lightweight or monado speed?

Even bowser, DDD and ganon have a better frame data than those two and the ability to become super mobile is the reason.

Palutena was designed with the option to use lightweight into account. Not allowing her to use her customs is being short sighted and not understanding the built reason behind her.

 

[Raijinken]

Could anyone imagine what would happen if Shulk or Palutenas frame data was as good as ANY other character? Or from another point of view, what would happen if ANY other chaacter could have lightweight or monado speed?

Even bowser, DDD and ganon have a better frame data than those two and the ability to become super mobile is the reason.

Palutena was designed with the option to use lightweight into account. Not allowing her to use her customs is being short sighted and not understanding the built reason behind her.

To say nothing of most character trailers focusing on their unique properties, and hers being the (sole?) one that shows off customs.

 

[FairyLip]

Yeah, pretty much sole. It was advertised in her trailer and the website.

 

[1FC0]

To say nothing of most character trailers focusing on their unique properties, and hers being the (sole?) one that shows off customs.

They also showed off her FS and even made a story about Robin's FS in his trailer.

 

[Raijinken]

They also showed off her FS and even made a story about Robin's FS in his trailer.

There do exist people interested in re-evaluating Final Smashes as a possible item to use.

But unlike customs, Final Smashes still spawn randomly.

 

[1FC0]

There do exist people interested in re-evaluating Final Smashes as a possible item to use.

But unlike customs, Final Smashes still spawn randomly.

Yes but the argument that I was trying to discredit basically was "Palutena uses customs in her trailer indicating that she is balanced around her customs for competitive play". By mentioning that she and other characters used their FS in their trailers and since FSes are considered not competitive I showed by counter example that a trailer is not a good indication of what a character is balanced around for competitive play.

 

[Sodo]

I am all for allowing Palutena access to her Customs, even in a Customs Off environment.

However, I see where people are hesitant to allow it and I play devil's advocate all the time. If Palutena gets her customs, why can't I play Airbender Dong? If Palutena gets her customs, why can't I use 1122 Mii Brawler?

My point is, Customs On is the ideal. That way we don't have these issues. However, if the scene is adamantly Customs Off, issues occur and a number of different scenarios can happen:

- All characters (Miis and Palutena included) only get access to 1111. The standard at the moment.
- Miis have access to custom sets (available in Customs Off), but Palutena only gets access to 1111. For some reason I think this is the route many scenes will take in the future.
- Palutena gets access to customs, but Miis only get access to 1111. This one makes no sense and if anyone has an argument for this option I would like to hear it.
- Palutena and Miis both get access to custom sets. I sincerely doubt this will happen, even though this is ideal in my head for some reason.

 

[LightLV]

People still kneejerk over customs and Miis?

Even after Evo ended the way it did?

 

[Sodo]

People still kneejerk over customs and Miis?

Even after Evo ended the way it did?

What did you honestly expect?

 

[JayWon]

Wrote this awhile back on a related subject:

Some character's custom moves are indeed pretty questionable in terms of quality. Some moves really just feel half-assed changing some minor properties and slapping on some janky windbox with logic defying physics for sh*ts and giggles.

However,

Palutena's custom moves are exceptional. Her custom moves are delicate and the designs are intricately well thought out. She is under unique circumstance and is the only character with all her custom moves available. I beg the Smash community to at least consider to categorize/treat Palutena like the Mii fighters (regardless of the Custom ON switch).

Palutena's crappy normals were designed around Lightweight as the original foundation. For whatever arbitrarily reason, Sakurai ultimately decided with our current 1111 Palutena as the "default" available for online.

Seriously, it's not like Sheik got Lightweight. Lightweight rightfully does justice and characteristically fits Palutena... a GODDESS. But more importantly, Lightweight appropriately complements with her terrible normals harmoniously. There is no reason for Palutena to have a tiny 1 frame active hitbox D-air (voted Palutena's worst move among Palutena forums and that's saying A LOT considering how bad her tilts are) literally making this move way more mechanically impressive than landing the knee of justice and up there with Jiggly's rest (2 active frames). But all her crappy tilts, slow start/end smash attacks, huge end lag on dash grab/attack... all start to make sense when Lightweight is in consideration. In fact, it makes absolute sense and her crappy normals become more than acceptable/tolerable/understandable/balanced with Lightweight. F-tilt/U-tilt actually works well with Lightweight playstyle, and if her D-air was like Falcon-tier that would be absolutely nuts! She becomes super fast and essentially fly but any of these whiffed moves (all tilts, all smashes, landing with u-air, dash attack, dash grab, autoreticle/explosive flame) COMPLETELY ABSOLUTELY halts her momentum giving you ample time to punish HARD with a charged smash attack.

Yes, Lightweight is spectacular! Not only as a move, but for spectators and brings something completely unique to the competitive meta. Is it overpowered? That is impossible for you or me to objectively claim Lightweight is OP as fact. But I will say this. She receives more damage under Lightweight. Lightweight last for 10 seconds; try not to get grabbed for 10 seconds (especially around 45-55% for early downthrow n-air u-air, and again ~95%+ for practically guaranteed downthrow u-air kill (pretty much at the mercy of our reaction time and execution)). Then there is 5 seconds of half jump/speed. Then there is 10 second cooldown before she can use Lightweight again. However, yes, Lightweight is literally broken due to the platform glitch that allows Palutena to refresh her Lightweight infinitely. It's definitely fair to criticize Lightweight because of this infinite. Not much to say but If you are playing on a stage like Smashville, be wary of the platform location & punish her for trying to land on the platform. Easier said then done of course. I think Sakurai and his team are aware of the infinite Lightweight but I don't think they will patch it out unless Lightweight gets a big spotlight and becomes more of a mainstream issue.


As a Pikachu main, I am totally fine banning Pikachu's Heavyskull Bash. Frame 4, 32% max damage, kills Bowser (heaviest) at 37% is straight up overpowered, clearly deviates far from the norm, and is just absurd to give to a character like Pikachu even more so with his paralyzing jolts.

As as Palutena main, please don't kill her future guys. Palutena's future is honestly through her customs and because of that I just cannot let the Smash community to completely all or nothing ban customs. Sakurai particularly gave Palutena special treatment encouraging us to use her customs at the start. If anything she is in a greyer area of similar to whether or not Mii Fighters customizability should be legal. I am aware of the argument that at least for the Mii Fighter's they don't have to switch "Custom ON". And flipping "Custom ON" only for Palutena is indeed controversial. But some custom moves are simply just flat out ridiculous and heavily deserves questioning. Hence I am on the side of encouraging the smash community to find a system to ban certain custom moves, because completely eradicating 400+ moves, 3 full characters, and certain character's potential future/viability is more unacceptably ridiculous.

I beg the Smash community to not take the easy way out and do All or Nothing regardless of how "impossible" it seems. For the most part, I feel like the Smash community already has good instinctive intuition on which custom moves are too janky/stupid/OP that is beyond objective logic. When does a move become OP? If Sheik's F-air was frame 1 and did 45% each hit that's clearly OP. What if it did 18%? 14%? 11%? What if it was frame 4? Point is, the nature of balancing is never objective; when we discuss on banning certain custom moves saying what is fair/unfair will ALL be subjective but yet still for the most part the community will collectively intuitively/instinctively know what isn't "right". Balancing a fighting game is intrinsically from the mind of subjective human mind named Sakurai and his decisions are not protected from questioning! If he was an absolute objective God with perfect unquestionable balance and all these mere mortals are wanting customs because they do not know any better of the absolute truth then yeah we really should just play the default game how it is. We have the power to make Smash 4 better (Villager tree sapling does not make Smash 4 better). It requires work and lots of arguing but making things better and squeezing out the full potential in something when there's nothing to lose is always worth it.

For now, as a start, I think it's way easier to discuss which characters should totally be allowed to use customs rather than discuss banning. I hope we can all unanimously agree at least for sure Ganondorf/Bowser should totally be allowed to use customs! Yeah?​

 

[TobiasXK]

imo the point of argument would be that palutena's customs are unlocked by default presumably because they're considered in her design and balance relative to the rest of the cast by default. and if palutena with customs is intended to be on a level playing field with the rest of the default characters, then disallowing her customs by ruleset could be argued as community-ruled nerfing, which is something that generally smashers are ideologically opposed to.

i don't have a stake in it really, but it's interesting to me.

 

[Hippieslayer]

Why? the fact that her customs are unlocked from the get go is just random until sakurai says something about it, irregardless, who cares about what Sakurai thinks?I reckon Palutena is just a bad character, she's not supposed to have customs any more than anyone else. I also think this distracts from a more important issue, namely that mii's are beyond any doubt supposed to have all their moves available. Focus on that instead. That and enabling customs overall, who cares about Palutena in particular.

 

[FSLink]

She should not. No character should get special treatment, Miis included.

Miis should be allowed with all their alternate specials, they're allowed by the game in "Customs OFF" when you leave the toggle alone. Palutena can not use her alternate specials without toggling it to "Customs ON".

This is not giving them special treatment, the game provides an exception, and we should follow the game unless it's not competitively healthy (Time rules, Items, Sudden Death, certain stages, etc.).

 

[Hippieslayer]

Honestly, Palutena is just one character, there is a larger issue at hand here which needs focus. Jaywons post is very elaborate but it is all speculation, yeah her customs really fit her kit, but that doesn't mean she's supposed to have em. If Sakurai means for her to have her customs he could've made super speed and/or lightweight her defaults instead, he's had plenty of chances to do so.

 

[FSLink]

Honestly, Palutena is just one character, there is a larger issue at hand here which needs focus.Jaywons post is very elaborate but it is all speculation, yeah her customs really fit her kit, but that doesn't mean she's supposed to have em. If Sakurai means for her to have her customs he could've made super speed and/or lightweight her defaults instead, he's had plenty of chances to do so.

Agreed, or hard code an exception into the game to allow her to use all her specials in Customs OFF. If the Miis can have this exception, Palutena could have had it as well, but she does not.

 

[deepseadiva]

Why? the fact that her customs are unlocked from the get go is just random until sakurai says something about it, irregardless, who cares about what Sakurai thinks?I reckon Palutena is just a bad character, she's not supposed to have customs any more than anyone else. I also think this distracts from a more important issue, namely that mii's are beyond any doubt supposed to have all their moves available. Focus on that instead. That and enabling customs overall, who cares about Palutena in particular.

TOs commonly explain that customs are banned since they are too much of a hassle to unlock on every system. Palutena is a clear anomaly to that reasoning. Its a good point, and she's troublesome for it.

I wouldn't hope this is distracting from the Miis. Miis fortunately exist in Customs Off, and so they're spared argument for their own particular reasoning.

But Palutena definitely demands particular reasoning as well since banning her customs along with everyone else because "they're not worth unlocking" does not apply to her. Its not really a question about giving Palutena "special treatment", but really why is she being punished when she didn't even do anything.

 

[Hippieslayer]

TOs commonly explain that customs are banned since they are too much of a hassle to unlock on every system. Palutena is a clear anomaly to that reasoning. Its a good point, and she's troublesome for it.

I wouldn't hope this is distracting from the Miis. Miis fortunately exist in Customs Off, and so they're spared argument for their own particular reasoning.

But Palutena definitely demands particular reasoning as well since banning her customs along with everyone else because "they're not worth unlocking" does not apply to her. Its not really a question about giving Palutena "special treatment", but really why is she being punished when she didn't even do anything.

TBH I wouldn't personally mind her customs being unlocked, I use her myself quite a bit. The problem is people would argue that its unfair, the same they already do with the mii's, even though its even less so in their case. I don't think this is a battle worth fighting either, anti-custom bias is strong to keep mii's locked to 1111 default size in many places, thus its likely strong enough to keep Palutena in default, and irregardless, the mii issue's should take precedence.

 

[JayWon]

Logistics is fine so pretty much the question is:

Do we as a smash community just simply let Palutena use her customs or do we as a smash community want to kill her future?

That's pretty much it.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Logistics is fine so pretty much the question is:

Do we as a smash community just simply let Palutena use her customs or do we as a smash community want to kill her future?

That's pretty much it.

Do you mean we only need one sacrifice to have a non-complex, no-need-to-practice metagame?
Many people would buy that

 

[FairyLip]

Honestly, I would say yes. Palutena is a powerful, unique character who could certainly add elements to the metagame.

 

[Joaco]

If we give Palutena special treatment just because without customs she is really bad, then we should also give special treatment to other characters like Donkey Kong. It doesn't matter if Palutena was designed to use customs, the thing is that if we allow customs for her then we have to allow customs for everyone.

 

[Pyr]

Going to be blunt. Sorry for offending, as I know how I can be when I am blunt.

Main difference between the Miis and Palutena is that the Miis can use customs without customs being on, and aren't (nearly) as limited in applicable sets. If you want to use custom Palutena, there will be custom events. Non-custom events should leave that little option, in the upper-right, off. Else, how is it really a customs off event? Miis are an entirely separate matter altogether, anyway.

The only thing Miis and Palutena have in common is that Nintendo needed a character that gets custom moves more often when used. Miis get better chances at hats and suits from non-specific areas. Palu gets a wildcard for moves, and everyone else get's a higher chance at their own moves.

Wait, that's not the intention, you say? That's right. We have NO WAY to know the design intention of this character because there isn't an official statement. This is also the same thing for the "It's meant to be this way!" argument. We don't know. Stop pretending we do.

In reality, the only relation between Miis and Palutena is that their customs don't need to be unlocked and they change the respective moves much, much more then the rest of the cast. But only 1 of the 2 can use those moves with the option in the upper-right off.

Palutena doesn't deserve special treatment because it's just not possible in a customs-off tournament. The option is off for it. She can't select her customs because of this. End of story. There are customs on events you can go to, and there always will be. It's ignorant to think customs will die completely. If the future of your character is determined by the type of event you can go to, then you need to re-examine why you're playing this character. SOMEONE has to be at the bottom. This grasp at not being as crappy a character can't work on a fundamental level because, again:

In a customs off tournament, the option for customs is off. That's the point. She can't select custom sets due to this. She doesn't deserve to be select-able despite this because, literally, it's not possible. To do so is to change what the event is. If you want a custom Palutena, go play in a customs event.

 

[Sunswine]

As a Palutena main, I'm not going to demand of the use of her custom moveset in tournament play, but she deserves the same chance as the Miis do if they customs are to be allowed. I noticed their was an argument above on how she shouldn't be allowed to use her custom moves since she cannot use them online, but you guys forget that Miis aren't even allowed online to begin with. So the whole debate that the Miis are allowed simply because the custom off switch does not apply to the, while it does for Palutena, becomes obsolete since it comes down to the matter of opinion and perspective. Every tournament has their rules, but if the Miis are allowed why segregate Palutena from that category. Its all explained above how she improves drastically and has a chance on competitive play with her customs, yet she does not reach a level of unfairness like other custom moves. And even if she does become legal w/ customs, she isn't going to plague the meta considering how few people actually play her to begin with because of her skillcap compared to the majority of the cast in the spotlight as of now. I just want to see a healthy spot for her in the game where she can be enjoyed to watch and play without having to be crippled for having tools available to her outside her default moveset from the beginning. If a tourney wants 1111 average Miis then it should be default Palutena and I can agree with that, but if Miis are allowed whatever setup then so should Palutena.

 

[Sodo]

As a Palutena main, I'm not going to demand of the use of her custom moveset in tournament play, but she deserves the same chance as the Miis do if they customs are to be allowed. I noticed their was an argument above on how she shouldn't be allowed to use her custom moves since she cannot use them online, but you guys forget that Miis aren't even allowed online to begin with. So the whole debate that the Miis are allowed simply because the custom off switch does not apply to the, while it does for Palutena, becomes obsolete since it comes down to the matter of opinion and perspective. Every tournament has their rules, but if the Miis are allowed why segregate Palutena from that category. Its all explained above how she improves drastically and has a chance on competitive play with her customs, yet she does not reach a level of unfairness like other custom moves. And even if she does become legal w/ customs, she isn't going to plague the meta considering how few people actually play her to begin with because of her skillcap compared to the majority of the cast in the spotlight as of now. I just want to see a healthy spot for her in the game where she can be enjoyed to watch and play without having to be crippled for having tools available to her outside her default moveset from the beginning. If a tourney wants 1111 average Miis then it should be default Palutena and I can agree with that, but if Miis are allowed whatever setup then so should Palutena.

I agree that Miis and Palutena should get access to custom sets, but your reasoning why the opposing argument is invalid doesn't really make sense. You're not going to win people over by saying their stance comes down to a matter of opinion. It doesn't. The entire basis of their argument (and it is a good one), is that in Customs Off, Miis can still use whatever set they want. Palutena can't.

Palutena's gimmick is that her customs are not only available from the start, but are completely different moves from her defaults. That is the reason why I want her to be able to use them, but until she is able to access her sets like the Miis are from the Customs Off setting there is something to be said about that.

The easy way to fix this whole ordeal is to just have Customs On become the norm, of course.

 

[123outerme]

If Palutena is able to use lightweight in a customs-off tournament she should not gain any access to any other set other than 1112. Which as I understand is what everyone is asking for.

 

[Wintermelon43]

Only Miis should IMO. When you make a Mii, the game asks you what specials you want on. When you use Palutena, however, this is not the case. Thus, Palutena shoudn't the Mi should.