Short hop Dair out of shield

[brg]

Is it me or this is an incredibly helpful move, esp vs MK downsmash

(you have to start the dair AS SOON AS you leave the ground)

 

[Kiyosuki]

Down air in general is a really really good move I have a feeling a lot of people don't take advantage of.

What I do is roll my thumb from X(jump) to A while holding down. If you do it that way the attack comes out the moment you leave the ground and it catches even short characters. Also because it starts instantly, you always land with no lag unless you somehow fast fall in that short amount of time.

 

[brg]

Down air in general is a really really good move I have a feeling a lot of people don't take advantage of.

What I do is roll my thumb from X(jump) to A while holding down. If you do it that way the attack comes out the moment you leave the ground and it catches even short characters. Also because it starts instantly, you always land with no lag unless you somehow fast fall in that short amount of time.

I like the c stick, but whatever works!
yeah, if you autocancel it its pretty much a riskless move vs opponents who like to spam smashes or attacks that leave open for a few frames

Ive found this counters MK's downsmash especially well

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Short hop dair can autocancel? I can't get it to work at all

 

[whut?]

Short hop dair can autocancel? I can't get it to work at all

You cant normally. Doublejump the dair (tap jump twice + dair) you will do a shorthopped dair.
Its one of my most used moves, especially out of a shield..owns spotdodging.
beautiful at low percents, 'combos' into fAir real good, sometimes leading to multiple aerials.
Rising dAir and doublejumped dAir are both good (rising=full jumped)
both work the same, rising can miss though and puts you and your opponent higher in the air.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Okay, thanks for the info. I would've never thought of the doublejump

 

[Timbers]

You cant normally. Doublejump the dair (tap jump twice + dair) you will do a shorthopped dair.
Its one of my most used moves, especially out of a shield..owns spotdodging.
beautiful at low percents, 'combos' into fAir real good, sometimes leading to multiple aerials.
Rising dAir and doublejumped dAir are both good (rising=full jumped)
both work the same, rising can miss though and puts you and your opponent higher in the air.

Wouldn't doing the double jump be so pointless out of shield? Shorthopping it might have landing lag, but it starts more quickly.

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Wouldn't doing the double jump be so pointless out of shield

Not at all. You just jump twice rapidly, then dair. It comes out like a frame later than a normal shorthopped dair.

 

[whut?]

Wouldn't doing the double jump be so pointless out of shield? Shorthopping it might have landing lag, but it starts more quickly.

pointless? No, When i say doublejump its not "jump once, jump twice".
Its as if you are combining jumps to lagcancel, there is virtually no time difference.
There was a thread about this a long time ago, and discussion before that.
SH dair will get you killed, the last hit of dair provides knockback, but when shorthopping it is interrupted by landing.
So your opponent suffers no knockback, and is free to attack while you lag, truly pointless.
(Edit: if you do not fast fall you sometimes CAN get the knockback, but you cannot react after it)
if your opponent shields this, again they are free to attack you, doublejumped isnt so vulnerable.
SH dair only hurts, i know that too well >_<

 

[Timbers]

Not at all. You just jump twice rapidly, then dair. It comes out like a frame later than a normal shorthopped dair.

pointless? No, When i say doublejump its not "jump once, jump twice".
Its as if you are combining jumps to lagcancel, there is virtually no time difference.
There was a thread about this a long time ago, and discussion before that.
SH dair will get you killed, the last hit of dair provides knockback, but when shorthopping it is interrupted by landing.
So your opponent suffers no knockback, and is free to attack while you lag, truly pointless.
(Edit: if you do not fast fall you sometimes CAN get the knockback, but you cannot react after it)
if your opponent shields this, again they are free to attack you, doublejumped isnt so vulnerable.
SH dair only hurts, i know that too well >_<

I know what you meant. I don't use sh dair out of shield, I'm just saying it sounds more effective. I'm just not sure why you would use something such as this. Simply shieldgrabbing them I think is a much better idea, as it opens up a CG on so many characters; and even the ones that can't be CG'd can either be tech chased or just take the same damage the normally would from the dair anyways. Dair is also fairly easy to SDI out of, so you might not be getting the full 16-17% or whatever it is.

Double jump dair out of shield isn't going to punish most attacks either, unless they're just standing there. Lag on most moves isn't that bad lol. Reason why I mentioned shorthop dair over this is, at least you can catch some characters in afterlag. This is just too slow. It's not only an extra 1 frames. It's got to be at least 10 =\

Can someone explain to me why this is a better option than shieldgrabbing?

 

[Endless Nightmares]

Reason why I mentioned shorthop dair over this is, at least you can catch some characters in afterlag. This is just too slow. It's not only an extra 1 frames. It's got to be at least 10 =\

Can someone explain to me why this is a better option than shieldgrabbing?

I still don't think you understand what doublejump dair is. It takes the same time to start as a regular dair, and you land lagless! How good is that!

No one said it was a better option than shieldgrabbing, but with doublejump dair you can challenge an attack head-on and usually come out on top because of dair's amazing priority. Shieldgrabbing isn't always the best option from a shield, especially if they aren't directly attacking your shield. Think of this as a counter-attack. This is a good attack if someone is going for a high-priority finisher, or if some metaknight player is holding A

 

[Timbers]

I still don't think you understand what doublejump dair is. It takes the same time to start as a regular dair, and you land lagless! How good is that!

No one said it was a better option than shieldgrabbing, but with doublejump dair you can challenge an attack head-on and usually come out on top because of dair's amazing priority. Shieldgrabbing isn't always the best option from a shield, especially if they aren't directly attacking your shield. Think of this as a counter-attack. This is a good attack if someone is going for a high-priority finisher, or if some metaknight player is holding A

I know what it is. You land lagless, but the startup is longer. How many times can you press the jump button in a second? Instead of jump button+A, it's now jump button, jump button+A. There is additional frame lag. Not just 1 frame.

Wouldn't that be highly situational? How would you challenge an attack head on? Dair doesn't really have a great hitbox on the sides of DDD.

It's not a bad move, I just don't like the idea of using it out of shield. =\

 

[Tyser]

You wanna know how to do it fast? Jump using X/Y, then hit up on your joystick a nanosecond after the first jump then Dair (with the C-stick of course). That's how its properly done Im pretty sure.

 

[whut?]

I know what you meant. I don't use sh dair out of shield, I'm just saying it sounds more effective. I'm just not sure why you would use something such as this. Simply shieldgrabbing them I think is a much better idea, as it opens up a CG on so many characters; and even the ones that can't be CG'd can either be tech chased or just take the same damage the normally would from the dair anyways. Dair is also fairly easy to SDI out of, so you might not be getting the full 16-17% or whatever it is.

Double jump dair out of shield isn't going to punish most attacks either, unless they're just standing there. Lag on most moves isn't that bad lol. Reason why I mentioned shorthop dair over this is, at least you can catch some characters in afterlag. This is just too slow. It's not only an extra 1 frames. It's got to be at least 10 =\

Can someone explain to me why this is a better option than shieldgrabbing?

To answer your last question shieldgrabbing is great, this is already known, it guarantees %.
Shieldgrabs arent always possible though, It depends on the situiation, and your spacing.
Your opponent may be in a position to shieldgrab you, this is one situiation where dAir can be versitile when lag canceled,
also useful if your opponent attacks in most cases, depending on how well you space.
If you make a habit of grab attempts after shielding an attack, you can get predictable,
Lagless dair is just another option to help you control a match. Another reason i say this is not pointless,
is because spotdodging out of shield is very popular in brawl during ground game.
A lagless dair will interrupt spot dodging, and help set your opponent for followups.

Startup on this move is just the same as doing a basic aerial (G&W backair etc.) and shorthopping in general.
If your opponent manages to DI which is rare-you should know your momentum, see what side they DI to,
spotdodge/shield if you need to,(depends on DI) or even another dAir is possible. Since you...canceled the lag!
I wouldnt say its useful if it wasnt, if you really want to argue about usefulness lets talk about mechhammer..
that would draw some opinions..

(Edit without bump) When shieldgrab doesnt work: your back is facing the opponent, after shielding a fast aerial, {MKs fair}
facing spotdodge happy opponents(grab fails to spotdodge). Not necessarily out of grab range, just the situiation.
This is only one of many options, In the end we all have different styles which ive respected since the first post.
Oh yeah...i use X-X+Dair, as opposed to tapjump, but again everyones different.

 

[Timbers]

You wanna know how to do it fast? Jump using X/Y, then hit up on your joystick a nanosecond after the first jump then Dair (with the C-stick of course). That's how its properly done Im pretty sure.

I would never use this if it required tap jump on lol.

But even then, the transition between X/Y to C-stick is laggier than X/Y to A. How much laggier I don't know, I haven't tried.

To answer your last question shieldgrabbing is great, this is already known, it guarantees %.
Shieldgrabs arent always possible though, It depends on the situiation, and your spacing.
Your opponent may be in a position to shieldgrab you, this is one situiation where dAir can be versitile when lag canceled,
also useful if your opponent attacks in most cases, depending on how well you space.
If you make a habit of grab attempts after shielding an attack, you can get predictable,
Lagless dair is just another option to help you control a match. Another reason i say this is not pointless,
is because spotdodging out of shield is very popular in brawl during ground game.
A lagless dair will interrupt spot dodging, and help set your opponent for followups.

Startup on this move is just the same as doing a basic aerial (G&W backair etc.) and shorthopping in general.
If your opponent manages to DI which is rare-you should know your momentum, see what side they DI to,
spotdodge/shield if you need to,(depends on DI) or even another dAir is possible. Since you...canceled the lag!
I wouldnt say its useful if it wasnt, if you really want to argue about usefulness lets talk about mechhammer..
that would draw some opinions..

A good answer. I'm just not sure how this could substitute a shieldgrab, though. They're out of grab range? I don't think you can DI a dair far enough out of shield to actually extend beyond your grab range, and if you do it'd be the later frames..which is no good. If they DI behind you, I'd think a sh bair out of shield, or just a turn-around grab would work just as well, if not better? Am I wrong? I just don't know where this would ever be a good substitution =\

It doesn't matter if you're predictable with shieldgrabbing. If they're the ones in afterlag, predictability doesn't matter. You're punishing them, not the other way around. It's not like they can capitalize on you shieldgrabbing them. It's a near guaranteed chaingrab on over half the cast, and the other half just ate ~20% from a bthrow or dthrow->ftilt. I have no complaints about the dair catching spotdodgers, I like the idea. Wouldn't this be even better as an approach, though? Like I said, you're almost always guaranteed to be able to retaliate with a shieldgrab. Most, if not all moves, have more afterlag than the 6 or whatever frames DDD's grab has. They shouldn't be able to get out of their afterlag and buffer a spotdodge in that amount of time. I like the idea when approaching, or just in general, though. Anything that can punish spotdodgers is more than welcomed by me.

I definitely think it's useful, just not sure about how I feel about using it as an alternative to shieldgrabbing. My opinion obvious differs from everyone else though, so I'll respect that.

 

[Magus420]

Timbers, jumps have startup lag, so you can press jump once to start a jump, and then be able to press it a 2nd time to instant midair jump before the startup lag ends and you leave the ground. Likewise, if you're only shorthopping something and want to c-stick it, you can make the transition from a jump button to the c-stick during the same period.

 

[Tyser]

Timbers just wants to think he's right so there is no reason to go any further here.

 

[whut?]

Timbers just wants to think he's right so there is no reason to go any further here.

Well, even if thats true, timbers concluded that he "respects everyone elses opinion"
although the only posts were me and 56k, so many people might share his opinion.
Theres no need to be a d!ck about it, even if he has been a **** to you on a previous topic,
or came across as one in this discussion.

Whether this goes any further isnt important, theres not much to say.
This thread will be here to help explain for those who have interest.
If i find any vids with it ill edit them in, or if i post any matches myself- this will be present.

 

[brg]

If done fast enough, the sh dair out of shield (lets call it sh dair oos) is hard to get out of AND you get the last hit.

Practice this technique because if shield grabbing is not an option, this is the second best thing you can do.

Sh bair oos is very nice also.

 

[Timbers]

Timbers, jumps have startup lag, so you can press jump once to start a jump, and then be able to press it a 2nd time to instant midair jump before the startup lag ends and you leave the ground. Likewise, if you're only shorthopping something and want to c-stick it, you can make the transition from a jump button to the c-stick during the same period.

Does DDD's jump/midair jump(s) have the same startup lag? Or even close to it, the fact that you're still buffering an additional midair is frame relevant. If DDD's midair is say, 4 frames, and the time it takes you to buffer that jump into a c-stick'd dair takes half a second (30 frames) instead of the 15 or so it takes to joystick+A the aerial. I like C-stick for my aerials, but when you're trying to beat someone out of their afterlag, you kind of have to be speedy about it. I know I'm probably sounding overly technical about this, but trust me that this isn't the only reason I'm personally against the idea. I mentioned my full opinion about it in my previous post.

Timbers just wants to think he's right so there is no reason to go any further here.

Oh you're just butthurt because you recently found out DDD's upB can't be used as an offensive attack to grounded Ikes.

 

[rathy Aro]

Being in a shield isn't after lag and I guarantee you that if you're facing someone good who is in shield they will spot dodge your grab. Trust me. Good spot dodges have killed me because I rely way too much on shield grabs. Now if someone's in shield and I dair them then they could get poked or they may spot dodge and never get a chance to SDI before the last hit.

And even if the shield grab is better in all ways, its good to mix things up. Your opponents will find a way around you doing the same thing again and again if they're good.

 

[Timbers]

^what? Talking about shieldgrabbing, not approaching. They're not going to be the one in a shield if you're shielding an attack. If they run up to you and shield, then yeah go for it. But the example given was reacting to shielding MK's dsmash. Not them approaching in a shield. So clearly the topic is about shielding an attack, unless I've been wrong this entire time in which case forget I said anything.

If they hit your shield, they're in lag. You're not. You can issue a grab right out of shield while they're in cooldown frames. Why do people keep saying to mix it up. If DDD's fsmash only had 6 frames of startup, don't you think everyone would be using it out of shield (assuming there was no sweetspot) because they can't defend against it? They're the ones in afterlag. You don't have to mindgame an opponent that can't do anything in their current state. If they're using approaches to DI behind your shield, then I can possibly see the use for it, but it's not like a turnaround grab or sh bair is groundbreaking and difficult to do.