Shields: Everything you need to know about them

[The Star King]

Spacebar is B? Haha

My keyboard setup is way too good. Best ever.

 

[asianaussie]

lol, C = B, spacebar is a c-button

 

[Sangoku]

Maddy doesn't use macro. He wouldn't sometimes fail his shieldbreaks otherwise. And dandan heard him do it. Well I guess we don't have much evidence in favour of both arguments so free to anyone to think what they want. But I don't think it's too unbelievable that he can pull them off often.

 

[smakis]

didn't read all of it and have certainly not read the entire thread but theoretically wouldn't shield > jc shine > shield recover hp faster than simply waiting if every shieldrelease gives you 1 hp? Haven't checked any frame data, just guessing

start practicing everyone, should this work it shall be called jcshineshieldrecoveryfasterthanwaitingdashingsmakis.

 

[Sangoku]

Hello smakis, long time no see!

That is one really good point, I will try that tomorrow and share the result!

Thanks for pointing that out. If that work we will definitely include smakis in the name of the tech, but the name you're suggesting is still a bit too long. Smakis shine recover should be alright I guess. If that works that is.

 

[smakis]

impossible, since it's such a game altering new tech it need to have the name specified in my last post, otherwise it would simply be too confusing.

 

[The Star King]

Maddy doesn't use macro. He wouldn't sometimes fail his shieldbreaks otherwise. And dandan heard him do it. Well I guess we don't have much evidence in favour of both arguments so free to anyone to think what they want. But I don't think it's too unbelievable that he can pull them off often.

Maybe not for shine shieldbreaks, but he definitely cheats :/

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=283210

Lol I actually thought of the shield recovering thing (not with shine though), but I thought it sounded too silly to work.

 

[Sangoku]

lol at taking that seriously. Just before he posted that, I was talking with him about macro and stuff and he said it could be possible to have tilt-button with macros. Then he said "oh that's good, I'm gonna try it" but he actually never used it. There again, free to you not to believe him I guess.

Edit: ok I tested it, looks like I made a mistake. I first apologise for this mistake it was noobish from me to make it. So letting off the shield doesn't make it recover from one HP, but the 8 frames of dropping animation contribute to the first 10 frames to make it recover from the first HP. I'll change that in the OP after further testing to be sure not to make another mistake.

 

[The Star King]

"lol at taking that seriously"? How the **** was I supposed to know? Besides, he tried to justify using that macro in the thread, so he clearly thought that using that macro would be fair and square. So unless we convinced him, it wouldn't surprise me if he did end up using it, and doesn't tell anyone to avoid controversy (how do you know he doesn't use it?). The fact that you talked to him about it right before he posted that seems a little too convenient to me.

 

[Sangoku]

Come on, calm down -_-. As I said, everyone is free to have their opinion. I won't go back to that debate again so if you want to do so, please don't do it here and don't do it with me. Just go ask him directly if you want and if you don't because you think it's obvious enough that he cheats then everything is fine. Don't get me wrong, I don't care what he does nor what any kb players do. Using kb is already not playing the initial game...

 

[smakis]

I don't think that using tilt macros is cheating really, sure keyboard still has better/easier DI but you can come pretty close to keyboardDI if you utilize slideDI. If I had to choose I would probably play with someone who can tilt at will (not that it matters what so ever lol).

 

[Dr_Strangelove]

edit: disregard this: I just read the whole thread.

 

[The Star King]

Come on, calm down -_-. As I said, everyone is free to have their opinion. I won't go back to that debate again so if you want to do so, please don't do it here and don't do it with me. Just go ask him directly if you want and if you don't because you think it's obvious enough that he cheats then everything is fine. Don't get me wrong, I don't care what he does nor what any kb players do. Using kb is already not playing the initial game...

I'm always calm.

OK I guess.

 

[Incendia]

I was testing some stuff out and i decided it might be handy (those of you talking about shine cancels) . I usually slide my right hand from c-button(jump) to down-B for a cancel, usually while tech chasing so im in and out, but for shield ****** I was holding down and sliding my fingers from left-c(jump) to the B button and you can actually get a rhythm down. I was able to do about half a dozen earlier in a row, it'd be kickass if i could get them down solid.

Let me know what you guys think of this

 

[Sangoku]

^ That's exactly how I do, I let down tilted and just slide from left-c to b. Other people don't do that? Oo

So concerning the first HP recovered I'm really confused... Sometimes it gets recovered 11 frames after dropping the shield, sometimes 8, etc. I can find a reasonable pattern but I'll continue to look at it.

Another fun thing: it takes 8 frames for the shield dropping animation right? (see blue yoshi's post). But if you normally shield for some time then drop, the shield will disappear before the shield drop animation. However if you let go the shield during the "shield coming out animation", then the shield stays for the drop out animation. This means you can't shield for 1 or 2 frames for example which was obvious (except if you jump, platform drop or anything). There are other cases where the shield stays during the dropping animation, like when you hit it (again, see blue yoshi's post).

 

[Chariot9999]

Wait, what game are you talking about: melee, or smash?

I wanna know if this' true or not.
There are different time limit for every character's shield. But when the shield's attacked, it gets decreased significantly. Can you still recover your shield by rolling or sidestepping?

What I've also found out is that shields rebound projectiles. Could you tell me more about that? I don't know how to work it effectively!
=="

 

[asianaussie]

The prefix Smash 64 in the threadlist up top and the mother forum Smash 64 Discussion should imply something.

Rolling (and sidestepping in melee) just stall - the shield will probably recover ever so slightly, but not enough to make up for good shield pressure.

 

[Sangoku]

There are different time limit for every character's shield.

What do you mean by that? If you're saying that every character have a different time when their shields are draining then it's wrong. If you're saying shieldstun differs between characters I seriously doubt it but I could check it out since I haven't yet.

Can you still recover your shield by rolling or sidestepping?

While rolling I believe the 10 frames rule applies, but I haven't checked either. There is no such thing as sidestepping in this game.

What I've also found out is that shields rebound projectiles. Could you tell me more about that? I don't know how to work it effectively!

Projectiles getting rebounds from shield (like link's boomerang) don't attack the opponent. If you're talking about power shielding, that's a melee thing and you basically have to shield a few frames before getting hit. More details in the melee board I guess since I don't play melee.

Concerning the thread in itself I know a lot of things aren't finished (or not even started), but I have my exam soon, so I promise I'll get back to this in a few weeks.

 

[Battlecow]

I'd like to know a bit more about shield deflection as well (you know, like when Samus' Charge Shot bounces off at an angle). When does that happen? Does it still do full shield damage?

 

[Sangoku]

Hmm that's indeed an interesting thing to look at. I'll be sure to do so... in two weeks =P.

 

[Linkshot]

It does full shield damage. It just has to graze the shield. There's a TAS for SDI that uses such a tactic.
This tactic was introduced in Kirby Superstar (shoot a star at the edge of the enemy's hurtbox, it hits them but bounces at an angle), and carried on throughout the entire Smash series.

 

[Sangoku]

What do you mean by SDI? How could you DI an attack occuring on your shield?

 

[Linkshot]

The Fox's shield broke because another Fox reflected Samus' charge beam (doubling its power), and the increased power meant increased stun, giving him double time to SDI to initial shield break.

 

[The Star King]

Question: If you shield grab right after shield stun ends, the throw does half damage. Within how many frames must the attacker be shield grabbed for this to occur?

Surprised I haven't thought of this yet >.>

 

[Sangoku]

Linkshot: I still don't understand what you're SDIing. I don't know which vid you're talking about btw.

Star King: I will search that too.

Thanks everyone for throwing ideas btw and I apologize not to have time to look at everything now =(.

 

[Linkshot]

This video

On the last scene, Samus fires the charge beam. Fox reflects it, the other Fox angles it down at the final Fox. The Fox that angled it got a broken shield, and the Fox that got hit SDI's around the tower and gets uSmashed by the Fox that reflected it.

So I was wrong about the Shield Break SDI, but right that the angling of the Charge Beam broke his shield.

 

[Sangoku]

Oh yes that makes sense. I don't think you can DI from your shield and you definitely can't DI a shieldbreak. However this video showed that rebound doesn't make the attack weaker.

 

[TANK64]

I want wondering about deflection also, and if you could angle your shield while being hit to cause this.


...and half damaged shield grabs.
two weeks is so long *sigh*

 

[The Star King]

Another request lol: I want to confirm how getting a "shieldbreak" out of Fox's shine works. After a bit of testing, a 60% red shell breaks, so I'm willing to bet that it needs to deal at least 55% damage in one hit; so like a shield that is always at max HP (also found out that the shine that is broken by the projectile doesn't increase the power of a projectile).

 

[Sangoku]

Added a requests section .

Don't hesitate if anything else comes to mind.

 

[Thomas.]

Great thread. Very informative. I think that many people don't understand Fox's shine, so perhaps you could explain? Just a suggestion. All in all great job.

 

[Sangoku]

Glad you like it

Yeah I added the shine in the request section, so I'll make a section dedicated to it. I'll try to explain a bit everything about it, like how are the projectiles' power amplified after having been shined or when the shine breaks and so on.

 

[Linkshot]

Projectiles are doubled in power when the Shine/Ness Bat reflects them.

The Red Shell gets "infinitely" stronger because its hitbox refreshes and it can hit the owner, effectively letting you double it to the point the reflect breaks.

 

[clubbadubba]

From section 4.2 of the OP:
This amount of time (546 frames) is reduced when you already have damages. In fact the number of frame is reduced by the exact percentage you have. Imagine you have 95 % when your shield is broken. Then it will take 546-95=450 frames to recover. This rule applies until you have 400 %. Beyond that point, the reduction is always 400 frames.

But 546-400=146...
Did you mean 400 frames is the minimum time to recover, meaning at 146% damage it stops counting? Or did you mean at 400% damage it takes 146 frames to recover? Or am I understanding this completely wrong?

 

[Sangoku]

Did you mean 400 frames is the minimum time to recover, meaning at 146% damage it stops counting? Or did you mean at 400% damage it takes 146 frames to recover? Or am I understanding this completely wrong?

If you have 400%, the time needed is 546 (classical number) minus 400, which is 146. So it will take 146 frames to recover. 146 is therefore the minimum number of frames to recover. By "reduction is always 400 frames" I meant reduction from the initial 546. Was it unclear? Should I try to rephrase that part? Or maybe just add more details?

Projectiles are doubled in power when the Shine/Ness Bat reflects them.

The Red Shell gets "infinitely" stronger because its hitbox refreshes and it can hit the owner, effectively letting you double it to the point the reflect breaks.

Yeah I thought it would double. Didn't know Ness' bat doubled it though. For the "shine break" you mean it automatically recovers after each hit and only the red shell can break it due to its huge power one-hit attack? So I can have two samuses with the always charged shot cheat shooting at both side continuously without it breaking? Hmm sounds funny lol I should try it.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

Yeah I thought it would double. Didn't know Ness' bat doubled it though. For the "shine break" you mean it automatically recovers after each hit and only the red shell can break it due to its huge power one-hit attack? So I can have two samuses with the always charged shot cheat shooting at both side continuously without it breaking? Hmm sounds funny lol I should try.

I guess it is the same reason why even if a a laser is reflected back and forth between 2 fox's shine's, it will eventually break one of them.

I guess Fox's shine is similar to a shield but instead of gradually losing strength per it, it auto-regenerates unless the weapon does more than "x" damage.

 

[clubbadubba]

If you have 400%, the time needed is 546 (classical number) minus 400, which is 146. So it will take 146 frames to recover. 146 is therefore the minimum number of frames to recover. By "reduction is always 400 frames" I meant reduction from the initial 546. Was it unclear? Should I try to rephrase that part? Or maybe just add more details?

Ok I'm an idiot. Misread, thought you said "recovery is always 400 frames." My mistake, I never should have doubted you.

 

[Sangoku]

Ok I'm an idiot. Misread, thought you said "recovery is always 400 frames." My mistake, I never should have doubted you.

LOL don't be so harsh with yourself, it is always highly probable that I made mistakes, so I'm glad if I get corrected ^^.

Koro: yeah, that must be it. I just need to determine the strength of the attack needed. It's going to be empirical though, unless firo or another cool guy can find the memory address =P.

 

[The Star King]

Projectiles are doubled in power when the Shine/Ness Bat reflects them.

It's *1.8, rounded up. If you're reflecting something multiple times, the % damage is rounded up after EACH step, rather than just once at the end.

I guess Fox's shine is similar to a shield but instead of gradually losing strength per it, it auto-regenerates unless the weapon does more than "x" damage.

That's pretty much what I've already said >____>

 

[LayinPipe]

That escaping shieldbreak section looks rather useful, gotta test it out next time I boot up SSB64.