Shield Pressure

[S.D]

Hey guys,

One of the most frustrating things I'm finding with Pit is a lack of frame safe options against shields. Late fairs > jab (gentleman style) or DD away grab seem to work every now and then, but mostly fair on shield is just getting shield grabbed for me. Hitting the back of shields with crossup dairs seems fine, but doesn't result in much in terms of advantage. What are you guys relying on against shields? Are there frame safe options to avoid grabs?

 

[Liquid Brick]

I'm going to be honest here: no. Pit has little to no options against a shielding opponent. Pit isn't meant to apply shield pressure like a spacie, and his disjoints aren't long enough to safely poke shields.

The best I've found are SH F-Air > Jab 1, SH F-Air > Waveland Away, SH D-Air (spike hitbox), crossup SH D-Air, and VERY well-spaced F-Tilts with a plain horizontal angle. Sometimes I just DD Grab them if they get too shield-happy or the last option I can think of his using his Multi-Jab 3 (the one where he spins his blades around him) just to hit their shield fast enough to prevent action. On the bright side, most opponents can't camp shield forever against Pit as he can just back off and spam arrows from a safe distance. But really, no fastfaller is going to spam shield on Pit if they have watched Armada v M2K @ Apex 2014 Just be very weary if they're shielding on the ground and you're in the air.

I truly think that this is Pit's greatest weakness, as even being a lightweight floaty can help him escape from combos. If you are that scared of being grabbed though, use Pit's spotdodge as it's one of the game's best. Good luck to you.

 

[S.D]

Thanks for the reply. It's not a huge issue for me, just something I need to adjust to coming from space animal main syndrome in melee. Shield camping is not really the issue, it's just the occasional unexpected shield catching me out.
I take it the Dair (spike) has the most shield stun then?

 

[Liquid Brick]

I'm not too sure if the spike box has more shield stun or not, I'll have to check. If anything, I recommended it because of the spacing necessary to even have a chance of hitting with it. Having that sense of spacing will probably give you a greater sense of people's grab-ranges. Getting the spike hitbox on d-air is one of the few things I'm able to do well, but I'm going to assume that it's pretty hard to get consistently for most people.
I main Marth in Melee, so I'm a bit more lenient on people stuck in shield because I'm used to people using WD OoS off of my F-Smash to punish lol. It's not a horrible problem, as I'm sure Pit has some of the lowest landing lag average in the game, it's just that none of the moves are positive or neutral on block. But If you enjoy punishing people for shielding, the spacies, lucas, and Mewtwo are decent options, as they have either a shine or air moves with frame advantage on block. Pit's game is more about punishing people for acting OUT of shield with his arrows, fast ground speed, and decent grab range, and is less about raw shield trapping potential. On a lighter note, grounded Up-B has invincibility on the first 6 frames, so I think it bypasses grabs (not too sure on that).

 

[moogle]

Pit's f-air shield stun = 7 frames (according to this)
Pit's L-canceled f-air landing lag = 8 frames (according to this)
advantage on block = -1 frames

So, the opponent has one frame of advantage on you if he blocks your f-air. This assumes that you do Pit's f-air as close to the ground as possible, and it also assumes that Pit's f-air is not stale and would do 13 damage (otherwise you might inflict 1-2 fewer frames of shield stun). And for my last assumption/guess, I'm assuming that no grab in PM is faster than 7 frames. So theoretically, to trade with your opponent's 7 frame grab, you would need a 7+(-1) = 6 frame option. But... grabs outprioritize other attacks on the same frame (the super-armor effect on grabs), so you actually need a 5 frame option.

Pit's ground options that are 5 frames or faster (according to this and this):
1 frame: begin to dash away or dash through your opponent
1 frame: up-b (invincible 1-6, hits frame 5)
2 frames: spot dodge (invincible 2-15)
3 frames: usmash
4 frames: dsmash
4 frames: roll away or roll through your opponent (invincible 4-19)
5 frames: jab
5 frames: fsmash

Apparently Pit's jump has 5 frames of startup (according to this), so any of Pit's aerial options are likely too slow to outspeed a shield grab. Wavedashing might work, but I think dashing away is just better. Crouch is another option for some characters, but I don't think Pit crouches low enough to duck any grabs.

Personally, I use dash away and jab the most. I like using dtilt too (6 frames), since it combos to almost anything, but that relies on your opponent not being frame-perfect on their shield grab.

Now, all of this is assuming your opponent goes for a shield grab. There are plenty of other options out there faster than frame 7, like continuing to hold shield, spot dodging, rolling, wavedashing OoS, Samus/G&W/Bowser/Pit/etc up-b OoS, some up-smashes OoS, etc. But now you know how to beat a shield grab!

 

[S.D]

Wow fantastic response @ moogle exactly what I was hoping for.

Watching back my most recent set jabs and DD through or away from shield ala melee Marth seemed to be the options that worked with the most consistency, which seems to be backed by your data. If a player is shield grab happy I can see fair > spotdodge being a useful option, it's an effective fox mixup in melee I can see working well here too.

I wonder if using the first hit of f smash could have some utility? Gives the option of a second hit to either punish a grab or push shield away...

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

So basically, hit the shield, DD punish the whiff? Stealing that tech as @ S.D stealing your font, as soon as I figure out the hex.

 

[Vixen]

Hey guys,

One of the most frustrating things I'm finding with Pit is a lack of frame safe options against shields. Late fairs > jab (gentleman style) or DD away grab seem to work every now and then, but mostly fair on shield is just getting shield grabbed for me. Hitting the back of shields with crossup dairs seems fine, but doesn't result in much in terms of advantage. What are you guys relying on against shields? Are there frame safe options to avoid grabs?

Um, I posted ALL of his shield pressure data in the general boards months ago. Way to search function, bro,

 

[Vixen]

Also seriously **** shield pressuring with pit. Like, seriously, don't do it. He can't. Just cross up, or fade back and DD away. Those are your only legit options. It sucks ass.

 

[S.D]

Well I couldn't find it 'bro' hence the post...
Link to post?

 

[TSM ZeRo]

You mostly want to space F-Air, then bait their reaction.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I dunno the spacing of fair .- .

 

[TSM ZeRo]

v

I dunno the spacing of fair .- .

very tip of it

 

[Ethireal]

I've found F-Smash to be a great option right after nair or fair on shield. Just the first hit opens up a lot. If it hits shield you grab cause they'll expect the second hit, and if they dropped the shield for the F-smash just hit'em again.

 

[Angrycuban]

wave landing a fair backwards to bait a shield grab is god like. Also if they spam shield a lot just shoot them with an arrow and run in and grab lol. PIt doesnt really need to apply huge shield pressure cause his grab is so god like. Also ive seen Zero use arrows to whittle down a shield then shield stab with upsmash when people are at high % and constantly hiding in shield. Haven't used this myself but it seems good in theory