shield pressure with mario?

[red stone]

what are my shield pressure options?

if I get a F-air on a shield, do I get a free grab or will their shield grab get to me first?
what about a N-air on a shield, do I at least get a free down smash to push them away?

I just want to know what kind of lag his aerial moves have in relation to their shield stun ability

 

[Strong Badam]

If you aren't Fox, Falco, or Peach, you have no shield pressure.
The best you have is spacing outside of their grab range.

 

[R2_GP]

Jab-jab-jab/jab dsmash is the only shield pressure that i come up with lol

 

[j3ly]

Tons. It may not be actual shield pressure, but I will try to go into a little depth.

Slow:
Slow stuff won't work against a fast opponent, or an opponent who knows mario well.

Bair waveland (spaced) either side of the shield, and waveland through the shield. Once you are good at this you will find with a perfect waveland, mario can cancel the momentum of the waveland by jumping and doing an aerial. I like to bair waveland the front of the shield, waveland behind them but cancel that momentum with a SH uair as soon as I am behind them. This autocancels, so you can do alot of stuff afterwards. Jab jab -> dsmash, jab utilt.. anything. A nair will go through the shield on larger opponents after landing these 2 hits.

My favorite - you uair (autocancel always) through the shield, so you are now behind the opponent, and then bair waveland back infront of them. Now you do a tiny dash forwards and nair back through the shield with full forwards momentum. This will poke the shield.

Janky - wavedash, jab, utilt. If you space the utilt well, the opponent may try to grab you and miss. This allows you a free fsmash.

Medium:

Fair has enough shield stun and range to allow free late hits on the shield. Unfortunaly it's difficult to follow up - the options are jab, another spaced fair, or buffer a full hop and dair above them. You can follow this dair up with a late uair either infront or behind the shield, or bair or nair or whatever. Don't forget running away after hitting the shield is always an option. It's good to dash dance just outside of their SHFFL range, especially against marth.

Autocancel a bair/uair on their shield. Follow up with jab -> dsmash or something fancy like x2 jab -> fair -> buffer fullhop dair

Spacing a SH dair on the edge of the shield is a very good and underused mario technique. Often the floor hit will spike the shield. There is too much shield stun for the opponent to attack until the move has finished in it's entirety.

Full hops open some cool options to mario. By doing a rising uair on a shielding opponent, mario can fastfall back downwards and get a very late nair on the front of the shield, or a very late bair on the back of the shield.

Fast:

Fullhop fireball waveland -> jab/grab/dash -> pivot grab. This is sexy.. tough to get the hang of but extremely useful. Often the opponent will shield to block the fireball, and has no idea mario can waveland out of this fireball. Get the perfect waveland down, and you will find mario can easily get behind the opponent/infront and grab just as the fireball hits. This is legitimate shield pressure if it's timed properly.

This stuff isn't practical, but it exists as mario's other true shield pressure so I'll include it.

Mario can get 2 moves out in a short hop. These moves are bair + nair, and uair + nair.
Bair + nair can always come out, whereas uair -> nair only works on a shield. If you land both hits of either combo you are i a strong position to get some free hits and strong momentum, but in the long run you will most likely end up losing more stocks from trying this than you will actually take.


To conclude, mario doesn't have any free shield pressure, but he can space against all the shields and he has a **** ton of options. To use the options effectively you must be creative and have finesse with the plumber.. he has great attack speed and good aerial movement. An understanding of sliding, perfect wavelanding and how momentum works is essential to pull alot of this off.

Just switch to falco instead.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mario does what every normal character does. He spaces outside shield grab (or behind shield, etc) and then uses a mix & mash of timings to try and catch OOS actions with his various pokes (bair, f-tilt, nair, fair, jabs, so forth). Usually aerial > ground poke is a pretty safe mix that can cover certain timings but eventually you want to mix up more to protect other options & other OOS timings. Fair > fair can even work if you train them to leave their shield at a convenient time.

One of the common issues that these kinds of characters face is the opponent just moving away ASAP (roll, etc). But as a result of some of some cute tricks and a decent movement speed overall, Mario's pretty mobile. A lot of his stuff is also fairly non-committal so it's not as bad as it sounds. At all. I actually like Mario's pressure game. Wavelanding after a bair to land next to the opponent (ideally in a spot you can't be attacked OOS or shield grabbed) can be frazzling to their defense. It feels like Mario can be at low FA if he calls these sorts of actions too, so you can probably get a fast punish / poke if you do it well.

Mario's kind of dependent on conditioning (like most underpowered, but cohesive characters) because his grab range is tiny. You have to catch people moving out of shield a few times to convince them to hold it, then go in for grabs. This is the core of his mixup. Ultimately, Mario's goal is the same as most character's... he wants to get a grab. By poking at their timings and encouraging held shields, pauses before OOS actions, etc. you work towards this goal. Eventually they catch on and the cycle starts again but alas such is the life of a mid or low tier.

 

[j3ly]

holy heck that post count has grown since I last logged in!

What does 'Low FA' mean??

 

[KirbyKaze]

Low amounts of frame advantage

 

[a rookie]

I like to do the standard shield pressure(fair to sidestep/jab/dash away/dash through).

But yes, been finding different ways to catch them off guard.(i.e. - snipe their jump oos w/ a back air)

 

[Vkrm]

Cape that **** son. Fair > cape on shield.

 

[a rookie]

I don't understand your post^ You said Cape that, then said fair > cape???? o__O

 

[The Master of Mario]

Shield Pressure Fireballs
Dash attack shield poke
U-air/Bair->Up-smash shield pressure landing behind them.
The approach would be SHFFL fireballs so they shield then SH bair/U-air timing your attack late and land behind them or WD. then U-smash/Utilt/Punches

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Shield Pressure Fireballs
Dash attack shield poke
U-air/Bair->Up-smash shield pressure landing behind them.
The approach would be jumping with fireballs so they shield and land behind them or WD then bair/U-air timing your attack late. then U-smash/Utilt/Punches

Uhh i wouldnt say any of those would make for an effective shield "pressure". Like others have said all he has is spacing outside grab range with long range attacks like fsmash dsmash ftilt and fair, the latter of which shield pokes and has good pushback, jab mixups, and uair/bair crossups. Fireballs have 0 pressure abd can be slashed or avoided, usmash behind the opponent will get punished by bair, and shield poke dash attack will get you punished regardless if you land it because his dash attack ia so gatbage.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Uhh i wouldnt say any of those would make for an effective shield "pressure". Like others have said all he has is spacing outside grab range with long range attacks like fsmash dsmash ftilt and fair, the latter of which shield pokes and has good pushback, jab mixups, and uair/bair crossups. Fireballs have 0 pressure abd can be slashed or avoided, usmash behind the opponent will get punished by bair, and shield poke dash attack will get you punished regardless if you land it because his dash attack ia so gatbage.

F-smash will get you punished with real long range attacks like Samus's charge shot Marth's WD F-smash.
Dash attack's effectiveness depends on their floatiness and should try to hit with the end of the attack where is has highest priority.
D-smash and F-smash are not safe on the shield. This is especially evident if they have good range/WD skill/range.
F-air is good for shield poke but loses to Up-smash/Up-angled F-tilt often.
Up-smash damages the shield a lot and can be used to break.
SHFFLWD Fireballs are great for pressure making your opponent's movment slow and shield into grabs or smashes.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

F-smash will get you punished with real long range attacks like Samus's charge shot Marth's WD F-smash.
Dash attack's effectiveness depends on their floatiness and should try to hit with the end of the attack where is has highest priority.
D-smash and F-smash are not safe on the shield. This is especially evident if they have good range/WD skill/range.
F-air is good for shield poke but loses to Up-smash/Up-angled F-tilt often.
Up-smash damages the shield a lot and can be used to break.
SHFFWL Fireballs are great for pressure making your opponent's movment slow and shield into grabs or smashes.

Lol okay let me point out a few things for you.
1. Samus charge shot is exclusive to one character and is highly situational anyway. Just because one character has an option that can punish you it does not rule it out afainst other characters. Though i will give you that laggy smash attacks are not usually the safest things to do on shield.
2. While docs dash attack is good, marios is weaker, slower, has a worse hit box, and has 7 additional frames of endlag. If your goal is to get an easy 8 or so percent without any follow up or punish, and leaving yourself open to potential attacks then you can go ahead and use it. Mario will never be able to follow up a dash attack on any player unless they are bad.
3. Fair has a huge hitbox and shield pokes, along with good pushback on shield. I never said it was a reliable option but it can be very useful if not expected
4. Fireball is slow, laggy, with little hitstun. If you do it too close you will be stuck in lag and hit oos. If you do it too far they can avoid it, and fireball is easily avoidable with no penalties. There is no range where you can use fireball with resulting in either of these problems. Plus you should not shffl your fireballs, full hop makes fireballs bounce more and you can act out of it or waveland.
5. The only reliable options mario has on shield are jab mixups, spacing tilts or other attacks outside of grab range, and quick aerials crossups through the opponents shield and cape. None of these constitute shield pressure and apply to every other character in the game. Mario like most characters has no shield pressure. He just has decent tools to catch an opponents options out of shield

 

[The Master of Mario]

F-smash will get you punished with real long range attacks like Samus's charge shot Marth's WD F-smash.
Dash attack's effectiveness depends on their floatiness and should try to hit with the end of the attack where is has highest priority.
D-smash and F-smash are not safe on the shield. This is especially evident if they have good range/WD skill/range.
F-air is good for shield poke but loses to Up-smash/Up-angled F-tilt often.
Up-smash damages the shield a lot and can be used to break.
SHFFLWD Fireballs are great for pressure making your opponent's movment slow and shield into grabs or smashes.

If you use your first floating cape in air you can LCancel your second non floaty cape and Lcancel it into punches to apply shield pressure. Basically by using cape when you touch the ground it doesn't refresh with landing lag.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

If you use your first floating cape in air you can LCancel your second non floaty cape and Lcancel it into punches to apply shield pressure.

You cant lcancel specials, only aerials. And if you turn him around twice hed be facing you again. Plus the opponent can buffer roll or roll anyway get away from the second cape before punches. You use punches to catch the roll or grab oos, not just to simply hit their shield with more attacks.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Lol okay let me point out a few things for you.
1. Samus charge shot is exclusive to one character and is highly situational anyway. Just because one character has an option that can punish you it does not rule it out afainst other characters. Though i will give you that laggy smash attacks are not usually the safest things to do on shield.
2. While docs dash attack is good, marios is weaker, slower, has a worse hit box, and has 7 additional frames of endlag. If your goal is to get an easy 8 or so percent without any follow up or punish, and leaving yourself open to potential attacks then you can go ahead and use it. Mario will never be able to follow up a dash attack on any player unless they are bad.
3. Fair has a huge hitbox and shield pokes, along with good pushback on shield. I never said it was a reliable option but it can be very useful if not expected
4. Fireball is slow, laggy, with little hitstun. If you do it too close you will be stuck in lag and hit oos. If you do it too far they can avoid it, and fireball is easily avoidable with no penalties. There is no range where you can use fireball with resulting in either of these problems. Plus you should not shffl your fireballs, full hop makes fireballs bounce more and you can act out of it or waveland.
5. The only reliable options mario has on shield are jab mixups, spacing tilts or other attacks outside of grab range, and quick aerials crossups through the opponents shield and cape. None of these constitute shield pressure and apply to every other character in the game. Mario like most characters has no shield pressure. He just has decent tools to catch an opponents options out of shield

You cant lcancel specials, only aerials. And if you turn him around twice hed be facing you again. Plus the opponent can buffer roll or roll anyway get away from the second cape before punches. You use punches to catch the roll or grab oos, not just to simply hit their shield with more attacks.

You can cancel them as cape takes on landing lag. when you land it acts like an aerial.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Im sorry it doesnt work like that. Ask anyone and they will give you the same answer. When lcanceling was put in the game it was made to only apply to awrial attacks, just because you hit the ground doesnt mean you can cancel your lag. Otherwise you could lcancel empty shorthops which is ********

 

[The Master of Mario]

Waveland cancels short hop landing lag

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Waveland cancels short hop landing lag

No wavelanding shorthops makes you take waveland lag

 

[The Master of Mario]

No wavelanding shorthops makes you take waveland lag

exactly and that's less than cape's

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

exactly and that's less than cape's

You literally cant land while caping it floats you in the air. You fall after youve gone through the cape lag. Yes its faster and its a shame you cant use waveland to cancel cape lag i agree. If you could airdodge out of cape then maybe mario wiuld have some legitmate shield pressure

 

[The Master of Mario]

Your Second cape Doesn't float practice with that. You can set up Mario so that cape is the one that comes out without cape refresh on a one time basis.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Your Second cape Doesn't float practice with that. You can set up Mario so that cape is the one that comes out without cape refresh on a one time basis.

Yes it does all of marios capes float, only doc gets a one time cape. He may fall but he wont get to land while swinging his cape, and if you cape close to the ground youll have too little time to waveland. I know youre trying to help but im currently the best and most knowledgable mario player there is currently. Plus caping the opponemt twice does nothing but make them face you and its even worse since you have no way to cancel the lag and will get punished.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Yes it does all of marios capes float, only doc gets a one time cape. He may fall but he wont get to land while swinging his cape, and if you cape close to the ground youll have too little time to waveland. I know youre trying to help but im currently the best and most knowledgable mario player there is currently. Plus caping the opponemt twice does nothing but make them face you and its even worse since you have no way to cancel the lag and will get punished.

Jump and press Side B rapidly notice how Mario eventually comes to the ground after about 2-3 capes. On his second cape he doesn't float like the first one otherwise he would hover like jiggs.

 

[The Master of Mario]

Yes it does all of marios capes float, only doc gets a one time cape. He may fall but he wont get to land while swinging his cape, and if you cape close to the ground youll have too little time to waveland. I know youre trying to help but im currently the best and most knowledgable mario player there is currently. Plus caping the opponemt twice does nothing but make them face you and its even worse since you have no way to cancel the lag and will get punished.

The cape isn't as useful because of the startup lag kinda like F-air not because of the waveland timing or ability to punish The problem is you'd have to get close enough to followup with punches and the cancelling into ground with waveland. if you wavedash you waste six frames starting up the jump so fox trot may be preferred although slower depending on the stage. You'd Probably want to stutter step F-tilt into punches as an alternative.

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

Jump and press Side B rapidly notice how Mario eventually comes to the ground after about 2-3 capes. On his second cape he doesn't float like the first one otherwise he would hover like jiggs.

He loses elevation but it keeps him in the air, he wont drop until the cape finishes

 

[USUX_LEGEND]

The cape isn't as useful because of the startup lag kinda like F-air not because of the waveland timing or ability to punish The problem is you'd have to get close enough to followup with punches and the cancelling into ground with waveland. if you wavedash you waste six frames starting up the jump so fox trot may be preferred although slower depending on the stage. You'd Probably want to stutter step F-tilt into punches as an alternative.

Yes cape blows thats what i was saying. Wavedash is lagging too yes. Fox trot is also laggy and worse than wavedash. I said spacing ftilt on shield would be useful earlier. Pretty sure stutter step is a barwl thing

 

[a rookie]

I think just regular 50/50's are good. Jab --> Grab/Dsmash. Just hit that shield and add a jab? Lol. There's no true shield pressure, except maybe dair(cross their shield up)