Shield Grab vs. Aerials

[Xygonn]

We all know shield grab is bad, but there are moves we can shield grab. Here is a table for the original cast using 1.1.1 frame data.

Please check for errors.

No means it isn't safe at all, high on shield means you can grab if they hit you basically above mid height of the shield (13 to 16 frames) and isn't totally safe, tight is 17 to 19 frames so you need to act quickly for it to be totally safe, lenient is 20 or more frames.

I've changed the method a little bit, so I'll work on the high on shield table some more later. The raw frame advantage doesn't cover the time required to spot dodge. The Yes/No table still includes those frames.

Yes or No table

Spoiler: 1.0.4

Character|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair
Captain Falcon|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
King Dedede|No|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Diddy Kong|No|Yes|No|Yes|Yes
Donkey Kong|No|Yes|No|Yes|Yes
Duck Hunt|Yes|No|Yes|Yes|Yes
Falco|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
Fox|No|Yes|No|Yes|Yes
Mr. Game & Watch|No|No|Yes|No|Yes
Ganondorf|No|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Greninja|No|No|No|No|Yes
Ike|No|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Kirby|No|No|No|No|Yes
Bowser|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Bowser Jr.|Yes|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Link|No|No|No|Yes|Yes
Little Mac|No|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Charizard|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Lucario|No|Yes|No|Yes|No
Lucina|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Luigi|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
Mario|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
Dr. Mario|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
Marth|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Meta Knight|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Villager|No|Yes|Yes|No|No
Ness|Yes|Yes|No|No|Yes
Pac-Man|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Palutena|Yes|No|No|Yes|Yes
Peach|No|Yes|No|No|No
Pikachu|Yes|No|Yes|Yes|Yes
Olimar|No|No|No|Yes|Yes
Pit|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Dark Pit|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Jigglypuff|No|No|No|No|Yes
Robin|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
R.O.B.|No|No|Yes|Yes|Yes
Mega Man|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Rosalina|No|Yes|No|Yes|Yes
Samus|No|Yes|No|No|Yes
Sheik|No|No|No|Yes|Yes
Shulk|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Sonic|No|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes
Zero Suit Samus|No|No|No|No|Yes
Toon Link|No|No|Yes|Yes|Yes
Wario|No|Yes|Yes|No|Yes
Wii Fit Trainer|No|No|Yes|No|Yes
Yoshi|No|No|Yes|No|Yes
Zelda|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes|Yes

Spoiler: 1.1.1

Character | Nair | Fair | Bair | Uair | Dair
Captain Falcon | No | Yes | No | No | No
King Dedede | No | Yes | No | No | Yes
Diddy Kong | No | Yes | No | Yes | Yes
Donkey Kong | No | Yes | No | Yes | No
Duck Hunt | No | No | Yes | No | Yes
Falco | No | Yes | No | No | Yes
Fox | No | Yes | No | No | Yes
Mr. Game & Watch | No | No | Yes | No | Yes
Ganondorf | No | No | No | No | Yes
Greninja | No | No | No | No | Yes
Ike | No | No | No | No | Yes
Kirby | No | No | No | No | No
Bowser | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
Bowser Jr. | No | Yes | No | No | No
Link | No | No | No | No | Yes
Little Mac | No | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes
Charizard | Yes | Yes | Yes | No | Yes
Lucario | No | No | No | No | No
Lucina | No | No | No | No | Yes
Luigi | No | Yes | No | No | No
Mario | No | Yes | No | No | No
Dr. Mario | No | Yes | No | No | No
Marth | No | No | No | No | Yes
Meta Knight | No | No | No | No | Yes
Villager | No | Yes | Yes | No | No
Ness | No | Yes | No | No | Yes
Pac-Man | No | No | No | No | No
Palutena | No | No | No | Yes | No
Peach | No | No | No | No | No
Pikachu | Yes | No | Yes | Yes | Yes
Olimar | No | No | No | Yes | Yes
Pit | Yes | No | No | Yes | Yes
Dark Pit | Yes | No | No | Yes | Yes
Jigglypuff | No | No | No | No | Yes
Robin | No | No | No | No | Yes
R.O.B. | No | No | No | Yes | No
Mega Man | No | No | No | No | No
Rosalina | No | No | No | No | No
Samus | No | Yes | No | No | No
Sheik | No | No | No | Yes | Yes
Shulk | No | Yes | No | No | No
Sonic | No | Yes | Yes | No | Yes
Zero Suit Samus | No | No | No | No | Yes
Toon Link | No | No | No | No | Yes
Wario | No | No | Yes | No | No
Wii Fit Trainer | No | No | No | No | No
Yoshi | No | No | No | No | No
Zelda | No | No | No | No | No

No/High on Shield/Tight/Lenient Table

Spoiler: 1.0.4

Character|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair
Captain Falcon|No|Lenient|No|No|Tight
King Dedede|High On Shield|Lenient|Tight|Lenient|Lenient
Diddy Kong|High On Shield|Lenient|No|Lenient|Lenient
Donkey Kong|High On Shield|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient
Duck Hunt|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient|Tight|Lenient
Falco|High On Shield|Lenient|No|High On Shield|Lenient
Fox|No|Lenient|No|Tight|Lenient
Mr. Game & Watch|No|High On Shield|Lenient|No|Lenient
Ganondorf|High On Shield|Lenient|Tight|Tight|Lenient
Greninja|No|High On Shield|High On Shield|High On Shield|Lenient
Ike|High On Shield|Tight|Tight|Tight|Lenient
Kirby|No|No|High On Shield|No|Tight
Bowser|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Bowser Jr.|Tight|Lenient|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient
Link|No|No|No|Lenient|Lenient
Little Mac|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Charizard|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Lucario|No|Tight|High On Shield|Lenient|No
Lucina|High On Shield|Tight|Tight|High On Shield|Lenient
Luigi|No|Lenient|High On Shield|No|Tight
Mario|No|Lenient|No|No|Tight
Dr. Mario|No|Lenient|High On Shield|High On Shield|Tight
Marth|High On Shield|Tight|Tight|High On Shield|Lenient
Meta Knight|Lenient|Lenient|Tight|Tight|Lenient
Villager|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient|High On Shield|High On Shield
Ness|Tight|Lenient|High On Shield|No|Lenient
Pac-Man|No|Tight|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient
Palutena|Tight|High On Shield|High On Shield|Lenient|Tight
Peach|No|Tight|High On Shield|No|No
Pikachu|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Olimar|High On Shield|No|No|Lenient|Lenient
Pit|Lenient|Lenient|Tight|Lenient|Lenient
Dark Pit|Lenient|Lenient|Tight|Lenient|Lenient
Jigglypuff|High On Shield|High On Shield|High On Shield|High On Shield|Lenient
Robin|Tight|Tight|Tight|Tight|Lenient
R.O.B.|No|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Mega Man|No|Tight|Tight|High On Shield|Lenient
Rosalina|No|Lenient|High On Shield|Tight|Lenient
Samus|High On Shield|Lenient|High On Shield|No|Tight
Sheik|No|No|No|Lenient|Lenient
Shulk|No|Lenient|Lenient|High On Shield|Lenient
Sonic|High On Shield|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient|Lenient
Zero Suit Samus|No|High On Shield|No|No|Lenient
Toon Link|High On Shield|High On Shield|Lenient|Tight|Lenient
Wario|No|Tight|Lenient|No|Tight
Wii Fit Trainer|No|High On Shield|Tight|High On Shield|Tight
Yoshi|No|High On Shield|Tight|High On Shield|Tight
Zelda|Lenient|Tight|Lenient|Lenient|Tight

Raw minimum frame advantage (held by samus) on shield hit:

Spoiler: 1.0.4

Character|Nair|Fair|Bair|Uair|Dair
Captain Falcon|12|25|10|7|19
King Dedede|14|29|18|21|28
Diddy Kong|14|25|12|21|26
Donkey Kong|16|26|16|23|21
Duck Hunt|21|15|23|17|32
Falco|13|31|12|13|23
Fox|10|27|12|18|23
Mr. Game & Watch|9|14|24|9|27
Ganondorf|13|20|17|18|23
Greninja|11|16|16|15|32
Ike|16|18|17|17|24
Kirby|10|12|15|12|18
Bowser|25|22|35|26|37
Bowser Jr.|19|26|22|15|20
Link|9|7|10|21|27
Little Mac|16|21|25|21|29
Charizard|22|31|34|20|33
Lucario|7|19|13|21|8
Lucina|15|18|19|16|26
Luigi|12|21|13|10|19
Mario|9|23|11|12|18
Dr. Mario|11|25|13|14|18
Marth|14|18|18|15|26
Meta Knight|20|21|18|19|23
Villager|14|24|23|13|13
Ness|17|27|15|12|27
Pac-Man|12|17|21|16|20
Palutena|19|13|15|24|18
Peach|8|19|16|11|11
Pikachu|24|14|29|24|38
Olimar|15|10|10|25|25
Pit|24|21|19|24|24
Dark Pit|24|21|19|24|24
Jigglypuff|14|15|16|15|28
Robin|18|19|19|18|27
R.O.B.|12|16|21|24|20
Mega Man|1|18|18|13|21
Rosalina|12|21|15|18|20
Samus|14|29|16|11|18
Sheik|9|10|10|21|29
Shulk|12|22|20|15|20
Sonic|15|27|28|21|38
Zero Suit Samus|8|13|8|7|29
Toon Link|13|16|21|19|37
Wario|12|17|26|10|18
Wii Fit Trainer|12|15|18|15|18
Yoshi|11|15|19|13|19
Zelda|21|18|20|20|18

Spoiler: 1.1.1

Character | Nair | Fair | Bair | Uair | Dair | Total
Captain Falcon | 5 | 17 | 2 | 1 | 11 | 36
King Dedede | 7 | 22 | 10 | 14 | 20 | 73
Diddy Kong | 8 | 18 | 5 | 15 | 19 | 65
Donkey Kong | 9 | 18 | 9 | 16 | 13 | 65
Duck Hunt | 14 | 8 | 16 | 10 | 24 | 72
Falco | 7 | 26 | 6 | 7 | 17 | 63
Fox | 4 | 21 | 6 | 11 | 17 | 59
Mr. Game & Watch | 8 | 7 | 17 | 1 | 20 | 53
Ganondorf | 10 | 12 | 9 | 11 | 15 | 57
Greninja | 4 | 8 | 9 | 8 | 26 | 55
Ike | 9 | 11 | 9 | 10 | 16 | 55
Kirby | 3 | 5 | 8 | 5 | 11 | 32
Bowser | 20 | 15 | 27 | 18 | 29 | 109
Bowser Jr. | 13 | 19 | 14 | 8 | 10 | 64
Link | 2 | 0 | 4 | 13 | 20 | 39
Little Mac | 13 | 18 | 21 | 18 | 26 | 96
Charizard | 15 | 24 | 26 | 13 | 25 | 103
Lucario | 3 | 13 | 5 | 14 | 1 | 36
Lucina | 8 | 12 | 12 | 9 | 19 | 60
Luigi | 6 | 15 | 6 | 4 | 13 | 44
Mario | 4 | 16 | 5 | 6 | 12 | 43
Dr. Mario | 6 | 18 | 7 | 8 | 9 | 48
Marth | 7 | 11 | 11 | 8 | 18 | 55
Meta Knight | 13 | 14 | 12 | 14 | 17 | 70
Villager | 7 | 17 | 16 | 6 | 6 | 52
Ness | 10 | 20 | 7 | 5 | 20 | 62
Pac-Man | 5 | 12 | 14 | 9 | 13 | 53
Palutena | 12 | 6 | 8 | 17 | 11 | 54
Peach | 2 | 12 | 10 | 5 | 5 | 34
Pikachu | 19 | 8 | 24 | 20 | 32 | 103
Olimar | 11 | 9 | 9 | 24 | 24 | 77
Pit | 18 | 14 | 12 | 17 | 17 | 78
Dark Pit | 18 | 14 | 12 | 17 | 17 | 78
Jigglypuff | 7 | 8 | 9 | 8 | 20 | 52
Robin | 14 | 12 | 11 | 11 | 20 | 68
R.O.B. | 6 | 9 | 14 | 18 | 13 | 60
Mega Man | -3 | 13 | 12 | 5 | 14 | 41
Rosalina | 5 | 14 | 8 | 11 | 14 | 52
Samus | 10 | 22 | 8 | 4 | 10 | 54
Sheik | 4 | 6 | 4 | 15 | 24 | 53
Shulk | 6 | 15 | 13 | 7 | 13 | 54
Sonic | 8 | 20 | 20 | 14 | 32 | 94
Zero Suit Samus | 3 | 8 | 3 | 3 | 25 | 42
Toon Link | 8 | 9 | 14 | 11 | 29 | 71
Wario | 5 | 10 | 19 | 3 | 11 | 48
Wii Fit Trainer | 8 | 8 | 11 | 8 | 10 | 45
Yoshi | 4 | 7 | 12 | 6 | 3 | 32
Zelda | 14 | 10 | 12 | 12 | 10 | 58

 

[DungeonMaster]

This is FANTASTIC. I've been wanting to get this data for some time! Have you factored shield stun? Can you describe your math please?

 

[Xygonn]

This is FANTASTIC. I've been wanting to get this data for some time! Have you factored shield stun? Can you describe your math please?

Using the 1.0.4 data (so some stuff will change a bit), I calculated the minimum frame disadvantage each character puts themselves at for each aerial move when they land it on shield (hits on the last possible frame right before landing, so no autocancel). I calculated it by adding the aerial move landing lag to the character's fastest option (basic ground move - usually jab, or spot dodge) then subtracted the shield stun based on the damage done by the aerial. There are probably big errors for multihit moves as the damage is the max damage for the moves rather than the single strongest frame.

Notably, Ike got reduced landing lag on some moves and I think that actually pushed several into the "no" category.

 

[Fancykong]

Thanks, I normally just OOS up B instead of shield grab, but this matchup specific data can really help me incorporate it more into my playstyle. Great work!

Edit: Can we sticky this?

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks, I normally just OOS up B instead of shield grab, but this matchup specific data can really help me incorporate it more into my playstyle. Great work!

Edit: Can we sticky this?

I appreciate the thought, but I don't think this post is any more important than many other basic topic threads. I'd rather just get it linked in the knowledge compendium.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Definitely gets a link in compendium. No question there.
The other one I've been wanting for a bit is dash-attack. It REALLY boils my blood when someone dash-attacks, I shield grab and they can get a spot dodge in.
@ Fancykong If you can get the grab it's always more damage than up-B. Samus can get 30-40+ damage out of a grab combo at some percents.

 

[Xygonn]

Definitely gets a link in compendium. No question there.
The other one I've been wanting for a bit is dash-attack. It REALLY boils my blood when someone dash-attacks, I shield grab and they can get a spot dodge in.
@ Fancykong If you can get the grab it's always more damage than up-B. Samus can get 30-40+ damage out of a grab combo at some percents.

I'll look at dash attack IASA and hitboxes next.

 

[Fancykong]

Definitely gets a link in compendium. No question there.
The other one I've been wanting for a bit is dash-attack. It REALLY boils my blood when someone dash-attacks, I shield grab and they can get a spot dodge in.
@ Fancykong If you can get the grab it's always more damage than up-B. Samus can get 30-40+ damage out of a grab combo at some percents.

The problem is that obvious grab situations that should work on paper still fail, and then I get combo'd instead. Like I said before, now that I actually have quantitative data to help me with judging when to do it, I'll definitely use it more often when I get the chance.

 

[Afro Smash]

I reckon diddy can sh Ff fair to spot dodge before we can grab

 

[Xygonn]

I reckon diddy can sh Ff fair to spot dodge before we can grab

This doesn't include autocancel windows. According to the data diddy's fair is kinda laggy if it doesn't cancel. It has ten frames to reach the autocancel frame plus 4 frames for landing, 3 frames for jab or spot dodge, minus 3 for shield stun gives 14. So if they are frame perfect hitting you with the last hitbox and autocancelling then it can't be grabbed. They could even dtilt or usmashusmash. If they hit three frames too early or suffer landing lag you can grab.

EDIT: Updated OP to be more descriptive than YES/NO, this may be more or less useful than it was before.

 

[Xygonn]

Check OP for updates from 1.1.1

 

[DungeonMaster]

Wow, that's really a massive change.
A lot of characters are going to move away from shield grabs. It's almost like everyone has inherited our previous disadvantage!

 

[DungeonMaster]

Do I read the table correctly that up-air is completely safe on shield?
We can do up-air to spot dodge and that's 4 frames spot dodge starts intangibility at frame 6 and grabs begin frame 6?
n-air now competes with d-air in relative safety!

 

[FullMoon]

How do you shield grab Greninja's D-Air when he bounces off your shield after hitting?

 

[Xygonn]

Do I read the table correctly that up-air is completely safe on shield?
We can do up-air to spot dodge and that's 4 frames spot dodge starts intangibility at frame 6 and grabs begin frame 6?
n-air now competes with d-air in relative safety!

That's an error. I messed up some multihit moves. Uair is 10 frames on a weak hit 8 frames on the last hit.

 

[Horseketchup]

Here's the way I understand the shield lock changes:

Shield lock frames now overlap with shieldstun frames. Meaning if you barely miss the powershield window, the shieldstun frames now "eat up" some of the shield lock frames that previously used to be stacked on top of shieldstun.

• So say you hit someone on frame 5 of their shield with an attack that does 3 frames of shieldstun. The 3 frames of shieldstun would be subtracted from the 7 remaining frames of shield lock, and you'd incur 4 frames of extra shield lock after shieldstun ends (which only affects the time it takes to drop shield). Before this patch, shieldstun wouldn't have lowered it at all, and you would've received the full 7 frames of extra shield lock after shieldstun ended (though the overall shieldstun would've been lower).

(Posted this is the wrong thread lol, don't know how to delete posts could someone help me out?)

 

[GreenApple]

Thank you so much for this. I really hate dealing with Mario's aerials, so annoying!