That's SDI. Also, there are several moves that appear to be able to true pressure a shield with ICs. I've come up with a few ideas, I'm still thinking of ways to link them (as in to lead into it perfectly from this or that attack). And i don't think utilt is a legitimate option (due to hitbox). I hadn't looked at aerials yet though (because they didn't seem to be fast enough).
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Shield breaking with desynch?
- Thread starter Pasqual
- Start date
Pasqual
Smash Journeyman
With the utilt, are you saying the hitboxes cause it to fail because of shield poke or due to not being able to stack shield stun to an already stunned shield? If it's the former case I'll take your word, but for the latter I think there are still enough stun frames to allow for true pressure.
Regarding bair:
IC's bair autocancels after 19 and, with a perfect fastfall, the shorthop is 21. With landing lag, this bring the total frame count of the iteration to 25. A bair will give 14 frames of shield stun. Now, since ICs can start an attack again halfway through its iteration via desync, the formula to determine (theoretically) whether it could work would be
Shield stun must be >= (1/2)iteration {+ human error but disregard this for the sake of theory}
14 > 12.5
In reality, this is probably irrelevant because you'd need perfect desynced shff'd bairs that incorporate the 6 frame Nana delay, but yeah. Unless I missed something there I think that the bair is theoretically viable? I didn't check any other moves beyond utilt and bair.
Edit: okay, scotu-style. Green represents shield-stunned, red is non shield-stunned. I need to go back and add in notes for the actual frames you'd have to input Nana's commands in for it to be frame-perfect, but I've given myself a bit of a headache and can't be arsed to right now.
Popo
1 Start jump
2
3
4 Airborne, start bair
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Bair hits
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Land, Landlag
26 Landlag
27 Landlag
28 Landlag
29 Start jump
30
31
32 Airborne, start bair
33
34
35
36
37
38
39 Bair hits
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53 Land, Landlag
54 Landlag
55 Landlag
56 Landlag
Nana
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15 Start jump
16
17
18 Airborne, start bair
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Bair hits
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39 Land, Landlag
40 Landlag
41 Landlag
42 Landlag
43 Start jump
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
This represents frame-perfect iterations, and, if I've not screwed up anywhere along the way (someone please check for that), this is exactly perfect? Popo stuns from 11-24, Nana from 25-38, Popo from 39-52, etc.
Regarding bair:
IC's bair autocancels after 19 and, with a perfect fastfall, the shorthop is 21. With landing lag, this bring the total frame count of the iteration to 25. A bair will give 14 frames of shield stun. Now, since ICs can start an attack again halfway through its iteration via desync, the formula to determine (theoretically) whether it could work would be
Shield stun must be >= (1/2)iteration {+ human error but disregard this for the sake of theory}
14 > 12.5
In reality, this is probably irrelevant because you'd need perfect desynced shff'd bairs that incorporate the 6 frame Nana delay, but yeah. Unless I missed something there I think that the bair is theoretically viable? I didn't check any other moves beyond utilt and bair.
Edit: okay, scotu-style. Green represents shield-stunned, red is non shield-stunned. I need to go back and add in notes for the actual frames you'd have to input Nana's commands in for it to be frame-perfect, but I've given myself a bit of a headache and can't be arsed to right now.
Popo
1 Start jump
2
3
4 Airborne, start bair
5
6
7
8
9
10
11 Bair hits
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Land, Landlag
26 Landlag
27 Landlag
28 Landlag
29 Start jump
30
31
32 Airborne, start bair
33
34
35
36
37
38
39 Bair hits
40
41
42
43
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
51
52
53 Land, Landlag
54 Landlag
55 Landlag
56 Landlag
Nana
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15 Start jump
16
17
18 Airborne, start bair
19
20
21
22
23
24
25 Bair hits
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
35
36
37
38
39 Land, Landlag
40 Landlag
41 Landlag
42 Landlag
43 Start jump
44
45
46
47
48
49
50
This represents frame-perfect iterations, and, if I've not screwed up anywhere along the way (someone please check for that), this is exactly perfect? Popo stuns from 11-24, Nana from 25-38, Popo from 39-52, etc.
I was just gonna make one of those when i got home, except all in one (not individual ones for nana & popo, i think it'd be easier to make sure it's perfect). but you've convinced me that the bair doesn't work. Assuming your #s from SDM and phanna's stuff are right, then the bairs don't work. Because you're forgetting just one (heavily critical) thing. Hitlag. It makes this not be perfect pressure.
Pasqual
Smash Journeyman
The hitlag on the IC after hitting the bair effects how the amount of frames it takes them to return back to the ground? I'm afraid I don't really understand hitlag's effect on someone who has just launced their attack.
I was trying to make a single chart but wrapping my head around it was getting a bit iffy and I figured I'd do them seperately for now, giving me the option to combine them at a later point.
I was trying to make a single chart but wrapping my head around it was getting a bit iffy and I figured I'd do them seperately for now, giving me the option to combine them at a later point.
This may go kinda hard to read if you're unfamiliar with the topics, but here it is anyway. note that at the end, there are more green fames, but they don't matter, since the margin gets wider every itteration.
Lixivium
Smash Champion
- Joined
- Mar 26, 2006
- Messages
- 2,689
It sure does. To this day hitlag screws up me L-cancelling Falcon/Ganon's D-airs.
I fail to see the point of this discussion. IC's WANT people to shield as much as possible. Why would you ever try to discourage that?
choknater
Smash Obsessed
Lol, not even jc shines can break shields.
How to break a shield: grab.
Lixivium is right.
How to break a shield: grab.
Lixivium is right.
No reason not to discuss it's possibility though. Even if they do have the guaranteed ability to grab you if you hit their shield, and kill anyone off of one grab, doesn't mean that it's not worth discussing desynch theory. Sorry I've been kind of slackin on it, I've been trying to work out new tricks for the characters i use, cause i have a tourney on saturday.
Speedsk8er
Smash Champion
But sometimes the opposing player likes to sheild-grab desynched climbers. By applying sheild pressure, you can sheild **** without worrying about getting grabbing, look flashy and embarass your opponent.
not to mention anything else added to an IC's repetoire is good right?
Although you're right
SgtShock
Smash Rookie
i have desynched icys to do f-airs repetitively, but its not even that helpful. Of course you could break there shield.. but Icys live for grabbing.. id always grab before trying to break there shield.. Chainthrows Ftw. but on topic i would say forward smashing their shield then making nana wave dash forwards into another f-smash. they will be knocked back a bit from the original f-smash so wavedashing is needed. Thats what i would do it that situation, but it obviously wouldn't always work, depending on the character you are playing.