shiek should be her own character

[Iris]

I just think it's disrepectful to the individual series when crossover games do a poor job to represent specific games and characters. I know things wouldn't be as fun if they worked perfectly, but franchises don't want their creations to be misinterpritted and confuse players. Little additions and tweaks to things like attacks and such aren't going to offend anyone, but changes in personality and specifically defined character abilities are unacceptable.

I think continuity in SSB has the most difficulties when you bring Zelda characters into the mix because they aren't constant between games. I know SSB can't revamp their characters completely just to accomodate a new game, but simple things like replacing a move, changing the appearance or adding a new effect aren't just within their grasp (because they've obviously already incorporated them), but it's also something I'm sure the specific game franchises appreciate.

 

[SiD]

I suppose, but Zelda transformed into Shiek using the triforce of Wisdom, which she still has in TP. So I don't think it's that out of the park.

 

[DH_Ninja]

one of the things is that they are using the characters most current form. *fox in his ds game, twilight princess link and zelda.* if you go by this logic, then sheik won't be appearing since she wasn't in twilight princess. but persoanlly, im still thinking its too early to say.

 

[Iris]

It's not about being able to transform, it's about being able to transform into a disguise that hasn't been used since OoT.

Personally, I wouldn't be angry is Sheik was a separate playable character. I'm just concerned with how Zelda plays, and I really don't think transforming into a completely different character at the expense of a full move set is a wise decision to make again. Not because they were an unbalanced team, but because both Zelda and Sheik had fairly unimpressive specials, and suffered because special moves brought so much more to the game than simple kicks and jabs. Even if Zelda's specials improved, she would still be missing that one cool attack that can make Zelda by herself a much more interesting player to use.

The only reason I don't want Sheik as a playable character either is because I'd like to conserve SSBB player slots and see them filled with much more deserving characters first. If the game happens to have like, 50 spaces for characters then sure, I'd be glad to see her again as a separate character.

 

[SiD]

Totally understand Iris, I always thought that special moves were what gave characters some personality. But In my personal opinion. I think it's be better to have the transformation than one more move if they were able to make them both worth using in the same fight, switching between them often. But I totally get where you're coming from. I definitely think Shiek should return, but I'd be fine with her as a separate character if it comes to that.

 

[Iris]

I don't think Sheik is a bad character. She's not. There's just plenty more significant characters that should have more priority when getting onto the roster.

The main reason I don't want transform though is because I like individual playing styles. We both know Zelda and Sheik are polar opposites in terms of how you play them. I'd rather see 2 full movesets of different playing styles than 2 playing styles crammed into one at the expense of two major specials.

 

[SiD]

Like I said, I totally understand your opinion and it's very viable.

I think Shiek has alot of priority of getting on the roster simply because she was in Melee and wasn't a clone.

 

[Your Hero]

Sakurai can still make Sheik look as if she was in TP. He made his own link and his own zelda, getting motivation from Tp.

Brawl Link:

TP Link:

Differences between TP and brawl:
-Diff hair colour
-Bangs face opposite directions
-Sword/Shield carrier faces the opposite direction

Brawl Zelda:

TP Zelda:

Differences between TP and brawl:
-Eye colour
Lol the zelda's are pretty similar other wise. Then again.. I was only comparing their faces, since I can't find a pic of her whole body.

Therefore, since he didn't actually copy the template from TP, he can make his own sheik. :]

 

[SiD]

Um, you know TP was mirrored for the Wii right?

 

[Your Hero]

Um, you know TP was mirrored for the Wii right?

Yea I knew that, but I assumed that just the map was mirrored lol

 

[Iris]

Maybe I'm expecting too many fresh faces.

Anyways, I think half the reason why the Zelda/Sheik combo didn't work out as planned was because people always had a preference on fighting style. I don't play Zelda because I like for competitive play to be harder than it should be, or because I like the character so much, or because I want to be a minority. I play her because I love how she handles. Even if they make them more balanced, they're still very different, and people will still have a favorite. All or nothing.

Differences between TP and brawl:
-Diff hair colour
-Bangs face opposite directions
-Sword/Shield carrier faces the opposite direction

between TP and brawl:
-Eye colour
Lol the zelda's are pretty similar other wise. Then again.. I was only comparing their faces, since I can't find a pic of her whole body.

Link: Him and Zelda have colors that are slightly off, but he's still a rip right out of TP. Also, like SiD said, everything was mirrored for use with the Wii remote and Nunchuck, because most people are right handed. Since Brawl doesn't play like TP, everything's normal there.

Zelda: Her colors are slightly off too, but not her eyes. That's just a bad screenshot. Her face seems more narrow in Brawl too, but that's just the deisgn. They can't exactly copy the character into Brawl. Just like Link though, she's right out of TP. Only difference is that in SSB, her armor magically detaches itself and her legs can pass through her dress!

 

[Drake3]

Simply put, Sheik should be taken away from Zelda because as they are right now, the two halves are supposed to create 1 character. Including Sheik means that you have to purposely handicap Zelda which I think is ridiculous. It wouldn't be so bad if the Transformation skill was actually feasible, but I see no way of improving the method in which it works.

..Maybe if it were instantaneous.

 

[Rane]

Sakurai can still make Sheik look as if she was in TP. He made his own link and his own zelda, getting motivation from Tp.

Brawl Link:

TP Link:

Differences between TP and brawl:
-Diff hair colour
-Bangs face opposite directions
-Sword/Shield carrier faces the opposite direction

Brawl Zelda:

TP Zelda:

Differences between TP and brawl:
-Eye colour
Lol the zelda's are pretty similar other wise. Then again.. I was only comparing their faces, since I can't find a pic of her whole body.

Therefore, since he didn't actually copy the template from TP, he can make his own sheik. :]

There's a pic of her full body from TP.

 

[Your Hero]

There's a pic of her full body from TP.

I meant screenshot sorry.

 

[omfgomfg]

sheik should be part of zelda as she was in melee.

 

[heypancho]

I don't really see why it's a problem for Shiek to be her/his own character o_o. If anything, it would only improve Zelda and Shiek separately. When playing a match I think most people go in planning to be either Zelda or Shiek.. so really, what's the point of a down B if it's only to be one of the two. Would rather see a down B that had more.. attack?? ~_~

Didn't play TP but I heard of Zelda using a sword. I wanna see her whip it out and use it. I find that more unique than a Zelda/Shiek transformation.

 

[Luthien]

For those of you who want Zelda's down-b free, I'm sorry to say I mainly disagree with you (I'm fine with Sheik as long as s/he's in the game). There are two main reasons.

First off, there is a pattern to Zelda's moveset. Her up moves and side moves are okay, and have magic power, but her down moves have NO magic backup, and therefore, suck (despite addition speed. But the fact that they have no range cancels this out). Any other down-specials they could have come up with probably wouldn't have made her enemies quake in their booties either. There are far worse ways they could have mutilated Zelda's down-b than Transform.

Second, my not-as-valid point, her three specials were based on the powers of the godesses. Seeing as how there are three of them, not four, one could come to understand the dilema her moveset was in with a spare move. I don't think they'd be able to make up an extra goddess just for Zelda's moveset (the continuity arguements THAT would've started...).

I'm assuming this is what would've happened in melee without Transform (first paragraph, not second). Really, what suggestions do anyone have for an alternate down-b that makes sense?

P.S. : Assuming they somehow keep Sheik as Zelda's down-b, I hope they make the transformation shorter.

P.S.S. : I can be pursuaded on this topic, whether it be with logic or bribery...

 

[Your Hero]

For those of you who want Zelda's down-b free, I'm sorry to say I mainly disagree with you (I'm fine with Sheik as long as s/he's in the game). There are two main reasons.

First off, there is a pattern to Zelda's moveset. Her up moves and side moves are okay, and have magic power, but her down moves have NO magic backup, and therefore, suck (despite addition speed. But the fact that they have no range cancels this out). Any other down-specials they could have come up with probably wouldn't have made her enemies quake in their booties either. There are far worse ways they could have mutilated Zelda's down-b than Transform.

Second, my not-as-valid point, her three specials were based on the powers of the godesses. Seeing as how there are three of them, not four, one could come to understand the dilema her moveset was in with a spare move. I don't think they'd be able to make up an extra goddess just for Zelda's moveset (the continuity arguements THAT would've started...).

I'm assuming this is what would've happened in melee without Transform (first paragraph, not second). Really, what suggestions do anyone have for an alternate down-b that makes sense?

P.S. : Assuming they somehow keep Sheik as Zelda's down-b, I hope they make the transformation shorter.

P.S.S. : I can be pursuaded on this topic, whether it be with logic or bribery...

Sakurai could always make her standard b move (her attack that sends projectiles going the opposite way) to b down and make her standard b move the light arrows (although the dilemma is that the arrows would copy link).

 

[Luthien]

Sakurai could always make her standard b move (her attack that sends projectiles going the opposite way) to b down and make her standard b move the light arrows (although the dilemma is that the arrows would copy link).

Darn. I was thinking the exact same thing as I was typing and was hoping no one would notice...

At any rate, I think that a bow would be pretty useless too, unless she draws faster than Link in Melee, and that they do WAY more damage = knockback. Those things aren't likely.

...so, whats being proposed is instead of massacaring her down-b, we massacre her neutral-b...

...makes sense...

 

[Your Hero]

Darn. I was thinking the exact same thing as I was typing and was hoping no one would notice...

At any rate, I think that a bow would be pretty useless too, unless she draws faster than Link in Melee, and that they do WAY more damage = knockback. Those things aren't likely.

...so, whats being proposed is instead of massacaring her down-b, we massacre her neutral-b...

...makes sense...

lol :] Beat you to it :D

Anyways yea.. In ssbb, the counter attack would either be b-down or b-side. It would make sense to change it into one of those two areas, but since the b-side is already taken (The fireball attack she had before is in brawl), you'd might as well make it her b-down , and then replace her standard-b with another attack. The problem is what the attack should be, since the arrows is basically copying Link's arrows or young link's fire arrow :S

 

[Iris]

She actually does have some moves. She's used light arrows on multiple occasions, in OoT she shot a huge beam of light at Ganon, paralyzing him, and in TP she had a rapier and could use multiple original attacks while possessed (Triforce glyph, lunging with her sword, and shooting big balls of light).

As for her down moves having no magic, you're wrong. Down special was magic based. It's really just coincidence. Look at the list above for possible moves she could've used.

Also, I don't think her magic arsenal was meant to be derived from the three goddesses, she just happened to get them because they fit her fighting style. She was supposed to be a spell-casting type, and since the spells from OoT weren't used for Link, what better spells were there to use for Zelda? They were free moves that made perfect sense with Zelda. So that give her 3 specials. What's left for the third one? Well, since OoT was the most recent game with Zelda, they had either a choice of transforming into Sheik or shooting a huge laser at enemies. Well, they chose Sheik because I guess it'd make Zelda more original. But now Zelda's got enough moves from her own games to have a new arsenal, so why not put one of those in instead since the whole Zelda/Sheik interdependency idea flopped?

Edit: I can see Nayru being moved to down B as well, simply to make the goddess moves non-neutral and leave the neutral for a more original Zelda move.

 

[Your Hero]

She actually does have some moves. She's used light arrows on multiple occasions, in OoT she shot a huge beam of light at Ganon, paralyzing him, and in TP she had a rapier and could use multiple original attacks while possessed (Triforce glyph, lunging with her sword, and shooting big balls of light).

If the beam was added for her standard-b, then it would have to be charged. I'm not sure if the paralyzed thing would be added as an effect that happens once attacked by the beam, unless if the beam was an "easy to dodge" type attack.

The rapier thing kind of doesn't make sense to add, unless if she had the rapier equipped the whole time, since it's kind of strange to have a rapier appear from no where and attack her enemies. :|

 

[Luthien]

She actually does have some moves. She's used light arrows on multiple occasions, in OoT she shot a huge beam of light at Ganon, paralyzing him, and in TP she had a rapier and could use multiple original attacks while possessed (Triforce glyph, lunging with her sword, and shooting big balls of light).

As for her down moves having no magic, you're wrong. Down special was magic based. It's really just coincidence. Look at the list above for possible moves she could've used.

Also, I don't think her magic arsenal was meant to be derived from the three goddesses, she just happened to get them because they fit her fighting style. She was supposed to be a spell-casting type, and since the spells from OoT weren't used for Link, what better spells were there to use for Zelda? They were free moves that made perfect sense with Zelda. So that give her 3 specials. What's left for the third one? Well, since OoT was the most recent game with Zelda, they had either a choice of transforming into Sheik or shooting a huge laser at enemies. Well, they chose Sheik because I guess it'd make Zelda more original. But now Zelda's got enough moves from her own games to have a new arsenal, so why not put one of those in instead since the whole Zelda/Sheik interdependency idea flopped?

Edit: I can see Nayru being moved to down B as well, simply to make the goddess moves non-neutral and leave the neutral for a more original Zelda move.

Heheh... oops. >.> I wasn't really including Transform when I was talking about her down moves. I guess you're right about her other specials though. My opinion of how Sheik should be in Brawl changes everyday. I think it depends on whether or not I'm hungry or something...

Still, if they keep Transform, they should decrease the time it takes. Not to mention speed up Zelda's attacks so that she can actually hit someone with them...

I wonder why people want Sheik nerfed so that she can't KO. I think they both should be able to KO, just have it harder to do with Sheik than with Zelda. It was way too easy to KO with Sheik in Melee. That's also why (I think) Zelda was practically never chosen over Sheik either: it took way too much effort to actually hit someone. I think that if they keep the two together, ignoring the contiutity issues, that Zelda should be easier to attack with, and Sheik harder to KO with.

Of course, if they separate the two, I forgot about Zelda's palm-light-paralyzer thing from OoT. Maybe that could be her neutral-b: the farther the light travels, the more it fades. The more it fades, the less time the enemy is left paralyzed. Or... you know, something completely different.

Let's see how I think tomorrow... or after a snack...

 

[Luthien]

If the beam was added for her standard-b, then it would have to be charged. I'm not sure if the paralyzed thing would be added as an effect that happens once attacked by the beam, unless if the beam was an "easy to dodge" type attack.

The rapier thing kind of doesn't make sense to add, unless if she had the rapier equipped the whole time, since it's kind of strange to have a rapier appear from no where and attack her enemies. :|

When the heck did YOU post again?!

Anyway, I agree with you. Funny how no one notice how quickly Link's able to put away his sheild and draw his bow/boomerang/bombs, huh?

 

[EPX2]

Entire franchise? Yes. Does new games include entire franchise? Yes. That's what I was getting at. Mario never shot fireballs in Sunshine, but he has Fludd. I never said the moveset is going to be derived completely from new games, but as evidenced multiple times already, many moves are. I win.

Your entire argument gives me the impression that you're implying that the TP-influence on SSB Zelda will go a bit more deeper than simply her appearance (that is, it seems that you are subtly suggesting that Sheik will leave because of this).

 

[Your Hero]

When the heck did YOU post again?!

Anyway, I agree with you. Funny how no one notice how quickly Link's able to put away his sheild and draw his bow/boomerang/bombs, huh?

If zelda had a light beam attack for her standard-b, it would need to be charged up like samus's attack, if not then it would be cheap. Unless if it was like falco's gun shots where he fired small amounts at a time, but I don't think that would make sense.
Also if, as said by iris, the beam were to paralyze another character, then it would be really easy for her to win, because she would paralyze and attack them and win just like that. But if the beam was easy to dodge, then it would be perfectly fine to add the paralyzation to the beam.

EDIT: sorry I thought you said What did I post again not when did I post again lol S:

 

[Iris]

I'd rather see something from TP instead of the beam though. I think OoT has gotten enough representation that we can start using stuff from newer games as well. They could make the Triforce glyph appear underneath her to hurt enemies close by, they could use light arrows that paralyze on impact, or orbs of light like the ones in the puppet Zelda battle that can be charged up like Mewtwo or Samus's neutral B. Regardless, I just hope Zelda finally gets a special that can actually KO.

Your entire argument gives me the impression that you're implying that the TP-influence on SSB Zelda will go a bit more deeper than simply her appearance (that is, it seems that you are subtly suggesting that Sheik will leave because of this).

My argument is that if a more recent game supplies ideas for a new attack, then it's entirely possible that they'll incorporate it into one or more of the moves. Since Farore's Wind, Din's Fire, and most likely, Nayru's Love are going to be in, the move would have to be Transform, which wouldn't have fit as well in the first place.

 

[Luthien]

I'd rather see something from TP instead of the beam though. I think OoT has gotten enough representation that we can start using stuff from newer games as well. They could make the Triforce glyph appear underneath her to hurt enemies close by, they could use light arrows that paralyze on impact, or orbs of light like the ones in the puppet Zelda battle that can be charged up like Mewtwo or Samus's neutral B. Regardless, I just hope Zelda finally gets a special that can actually KO.

Wouldn't the glyph be a little too easy to dodge, though (not to mention hard to aim/time)? The light arrows would be too easy to dodge, or would take to long to draw (probably), and doesn't Zelda use her sword for the light orbs (which she doesn't have in Brawl)? I think they're fine ideas (well, maybe not the arrows), and Zelda definitely needs better ranged moves, but those just don't seem right to me.

 

[Iris]

The orbs are magic, I guess, so I figure she can probably make them without a sword. The glyph wouldn't be too easy to dodge if it was activated quickly. As for the light arrows, I guess they'd be as easy to dodge as Link's, but with a paralyzing effect that made it more worthwhile to use.

I wouldn't be offended if they created an enitrely new magic-based special, but it's not as if they don't have options.

 

[Drake3]

I wouldn't be offended if they created an enitrely new magic-based special, but it's not as if they don't have options.

My God we think alike. I was actually going to suggest that. However, seeing as how they took spells from another game and reconstructed them for Melee, who's to say they can't do the same. Take the light orbs for instance. Why not Press B to "charge" and while charging, Zelda can create a maximum of three orbs that circle her. Pressing B again will release one of the orbs that homes in on the enemy. Similar to TP but different.

Again, I wouldn't mind if they created an entirely new moved based on TP Light magic.

 

[kin3tic-c4jun-3]

why not put one of those in instead since the whole Zelda/Sheik interdependency idea flopped?

The characters were not made to be interdependent, and people do swap between the two regardless. Each character has their strengths during certain situation. A perfect example is switching to Zelda to get the huge distance with Up-B when Shiek is too far away to get back.

Light arrows do not suit the character. All other moves are magic based (including smashes), and she doesn't really use physical attacks. While light arrows are magical it is still a physical object that she'd have to pull out and manipulate requiring more physical movement from Zelda, and to me it would seem inconsistent.

I think a Shiek transformation is cool. Shiek is Zelda; you're still playing as Zelda, just dressed differently and more battleworthy. Why do people keep insisting that a magical princess has to be an amazing fighter?