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Sheik's Matchup Discussion: Fox

ArikadoSD

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Fox is another matchup for Sheik that should be slightly in her favour or at worst even, but if the Sheik player isn't used to it then it can be pretty problematic. The main thing here is that Fox has an amazing aerial game, his uair is amazing and we can't challenge it from above, mix that with his good up throw and we'll be in a disadvantage whenever we're in the air above him. Another amazing aerial is his bair which is pretty much identical to ZSS's bair, it has amazing kill power and autocancels from a shorthop, it's hard to challenge but it's not as bad as uair because we can challenge it with Sheik's fair.

Fox has a hell of a lot of good tools that are problematic to Sheik also. I mentioned bair and uair but his best tool might be utilt. Sheik's a fastfaller so she can get combod really hard by utilt at lower percents, and they lead to aerials at later percents. That's the one thing we have to always be on the lookout for. His utilt is amazing.

Lasers aren't a big thing in this MU because needles > lasers, and Sheik can also crouch under lasers which is convenient. Moving on to his recovery, it's pretty damn linear, but you have to know what you're doing to edgeguard Fox's Side B (which I'll refer to as Illusion from now on.) Fox's hurtbox is always ahead of Illusion and not behind it. The hitbox is behind where the hurtbox would be.



In this image, the blue part is the hitbox, Fox's position is the hurtbox. The gap between the hurtbox and the hitbox isn't always the same but I'm not sure about the measurements, I might need to test them more. But generally speaking try aiming your hits so that you hit in front of where Fox appears and not where he actually appears in the animation.

Fox's combos on Sheik besides utilt comboing to itself and utilt > aerials are all from down throw at low percents. Dthrow > Bair or Dthrow > Fair depending on your DI would be his main combo and that stops working rather early, so the only thing Fox gains from a grab is stage positioning. This might not sound intimidating but in practice it is absolutely scary because as I explaied, Fox's uair is just that good and you DON'T wanna be above him. Still, keep in mind that he has no combo throws or setups from his grab at all so sometimes shielding might be the best option. In general when Fox gets an up throw on you double jump and bouncing fish away, try to get the ledge or land back safely on a platform or whatever.

He basically only has 2 kill setups as far as I'm aware. Weak nair to Usmash, and fast fall dair to Usmash. If you avoid those or DI away from him and always tech then you should be fine.



So far I've only written what Fox can do, but what can Sheik do in the matchup?


Combos:


First of all, Fox is a fastfaller. That means he can be very easily combod. The most optimal combos that you can do are the following:

(FH = Full Hop | SH = Short Hop | FF = Fast fall | SHFF = Short Hop Fast Fall)

From 0%: Fair > Grab > Fthrow > FH Fair > FF Nair > Grab > Fthrow > Bouncing Fish
......................................................................OR
................Fair > Grab > Fthrow > FH Fair > FF Nair > Grab > Fthrow > FH Needles > FF Nair > Bouncing Fish


That's the most optimal combo you can get on Fox. Another good combo that does less damage but is more consistent is simply the following:

From 0%: Fair > Grab > Fthrow > SHFF Fair > SHFF Fair > (you might sneak in another SHFF fair here) Grab > Fthrow > Bouncing Fish

This should work every single time regardless of DI. If you don't get that to true combo then you're doing something wrong.

Fthrow > Bouncing Fish should work until at least 80% depending on Sheik's rage and if you do it correctly.

Falling Fair > Bouncing Fish is an amazing combo that starts from around 40% and lasts up until ~100% again depending on rage.

Nair > Bouncing Fish works the same way as Fair > Bouncing Fish.

Weak Nair > Bouncing Fish is a kill setup that starts working at high percents depending on rage, maybe around 110%.

Dthrow > Uair can be a good kill combo if the Fox player doesn't DI correctly (away from sheik).


Edgeguarding:

As I said before, you have to understand how Illusion works in order to edgeguard it optimally. I found that there are pretty much 3 ways to interrupt it: Vertical needles, falling nair, and fair. Out of the three, vertical needles is by far the easiest because the hitbox lasts a while if fully charged and it can lead to a needles > bouncing fish kill confirm if Fox is at kill percent. Very easy to do and efficient.

Interrupting it with Nair and Fair is a lot harder though. You have to pretty much commit to a read and hope that it works. Fair is especially hard because the hitbox doesn't linger the same way Nair does.

If Fox lacks a double jump and he's below stage height, then you can interrupt his Fire Fox (up b) charge, or grab the ledge and drop down Bair every time he tries to get the ledge. This should be easy enough that anyone can do it consistently. He'll eventually die unless you somehow mess up.

Additional Notes:

  • Needles are really good in this mu, you can punish all of Fox's landings and he can't do anything about it. You can also use them to interrupt Fire Fox while on stage which is also great. You shouldn't worry about Fox's reflector because they don't deflect needles in full range.
  • Don't throw out punishable moves such as Sheik's smash attacks or a random on-stage vanish; Fox can run up Usmash and you can do nothing about it. You don't want that.
  • Fox is light, so a Fair off-stage at maybe 120% can kill him. Use that to your advantage.
  • Shielding is pretty effective against Fox because all he gets from them is stage positioning and he can't kill you with a throw combo or anything.
  • Regarding stage choice, I generally dislike fighting Fox in Battlefield or Dreamland because he can pressure us from underneath the platforms with Sheik, and he could link Uairs thanks to the platforms. FD would be my favourite pick, followed by Smashville and T&C. There aren't really stages where either is dominant though.



That's all I have to say about the Fox MU. It's an MU I've struggled with for a while but I'm finally coming to terms with it. Feel free to comment if you want to add anything else.
 
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Skarfelt

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Honestly, Fox's recovery is so bad that you should literally never use a Smash attack. This MU has kind of a stalemate where neither character can commit to a kill option on-stage and has to combo into it - the difference is that Fox's are all either juggles or unsafe and Sheik's are edgeguards.

I cannot emphasise enough how important it is to edgeguard Fox. Like if he loses his double jump off stage, he should be dead 100% of the time. Even with his double jump, you can cover every option but it is extremely difficult on platformed stages. I'd recommend banning BF and Dreamland against Fox just to take away his recovery options. I feel like FD is his second worst stage in this matchup for that reason - I can't mix up my recovery onto the stage. Smashville is extremely bad due to the small horizontal blastzones making it easy for off-stage Fair to kill Fox. I might be wrong on this though as I haven't played on SV against Sheik in a while.

The thing is that Sheik's neutral is just straight up better than Fox's and you can edgeguard better than nearly anyone in the cast. Fox is one of the only characters that can juggle Sheik extremely well though and while her neutral is better, you also have to be careful with it. You can't just run in and Fair blindly against Fox as his oos options are fast and he trades with it well. Sheik has to bait with needles and space with Fair - fadeaway Fair is really good as all my options to beat Fair are commits so when I whiff a Nair, you can get a dash attack/grab or whatever.

Really good writeup though, hit the nail on the head for where Fox wins. I still think off-stage Fair for Sheik is ridiculous because it even beats Fire Fox's travel but *shrug*
 

Absol

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Please give me the details on how fox is in true combo range at 90%-110% as well as other characters. Because thats huge for sheik

EDIT: I'm testing with now with a friend with 100% rage on sheik around where uair becomes a nasty kill move, and fox at 90%. I'm getting nothing. He can buffer air dodge and get out every time by DIing away. What do I need to do, put tap jump on to make it even more frame perfect? I dont get it.
 
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Danimal197

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are you buffering dash? Keep in mind all of that works better when you use di mixups.

Also, you can trade dair with firefox. ijs.
 

ArikadoSD

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Please give me the details on how fox is in true combo range at 90%-110% as well as other characters. Because thats huge for sheik

EDIT: I'm testing with now with a friend with 100% rage on sheik around where uair becomes a nasty kill move, and fox at 90%. I'm getting nothing. He can buffer air dodge and get out every time by DIing away. What do I need to do, put tap jump on to make it even more frame perfect? I dont get it.
Yeah I tested it a bit too and I ended up being wrong. I was under the impression that it worked because I often got it against another Fox I play against but it's probably him DIing wrong then. i'll fix it.
 

BlastHappyNinja

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I like ducking under fox's lazer spam and crawling towards him at the start of a match. Almost EVERY SINGLE fox player that I fight starts out spamming it and I'm just like, "lolnope, coming to get you." It immediately shuts down that option and forces him to approach.
 

M@v

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Before we keep this going, do Fox and Sheik have any changes from the patch? I haven't patched mine because I'm going to Big House so I can't test.
 

ArikadoSD

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Before we keep this going, do Fox and Sheik have any changes from the patch? I haven't patched mine because I'm going to Big House so I can't test.
So far neither seems to really have any changes besides the added shield stun thing.
 

DavemanCozy

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D-air -> U-smash, Illusion -> U-air, U-tilt -> U-air / B-air are also other KO setups you didn't mention from Fox. Failing to tech F-air spikes will also get you d-smashed or U-smashed, depending on stage positioning and % Fox will go for one or the other. However, your F-air alone walls out all of Fox's aerials, and Fox has a better time running and shielding (preferably perfect shielding) the F-air from the ground. I'm not sure how the patch with shields could affect this though.

U-tilt will kill Sheik at around 180%, and that % may very well be reached because both will be struggling to end each other.

Your f-tilt locks can be SDI-d down by Fox from 0% ~ 10% to put shield up.

I'll agree that Needles are really good in the mu and needles > lasers, but Fox also has a reflector, and if he knows you're going to use it to punish his landing then he will reflect. Because that is about the only thing he can do if you're away from each other.

Fox also uses SH Illusion as a mixup and punish tool, since at the right part of the hitbox it leads to U-air. You can punish this if you see it coming with a N-air, ez and it leads to bouncing fish for you.

When it comes to stage-list, it really depends on ruleset. Fox should be banning SV every time, if he doesn't then take him there for being a dummy. Battlefield and Dreamland are all good Fox stages, Lylat isn't bad but it depends on if the Fox is comfortable with it. All three of these could go either way, so it's really up to your comfort if you want to ban any of those stages. T&C and FD do limit our recovery options, like Skarfelt said.

I wouldn't call the mu even, I'd say slight advantage for Sheik 55:45
 
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Danimal197

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I think this mu is -2 for fox. On most stages, he should have an incredibly difficult time regaining stage control at all.

Phantasm is super easy to cover with Nair, and there are like 8 different ways you can punish firefox. (Untechable fair into stage, Dair trade, runoff reverse bfish, runoff bair, dtilt, etc. )
 

FatalVindicator

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I play against someone who uses custom Fox, with twisting fox, wolf flash and the Falco laser. I have no trouble racking up damage, but I struggle to edge guard. I can't seem to hit him out of wolf flash and every time I challenge twisting fox he chews right through me and I lose stage advantage.

Also, I have difficulty getting back on stage due to his dash attack covering every get up option except roll. If I roll and he reads me, I eat an up smash. I've tried ledge drop Fair, but I usually just trade and end up back in the same situation.

What are my best options to deal with this custom Fox? I appreciate any input.
 

ArikadoSD

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I play against someone who uses custom Fox, with twisting fox, wolf flash and the Falco laser. I have no trouble racking up damage, but I struggle to edge guard. I can't seem to hit him out of wolf flash and every time I challenge twisting fox he chews right through me and I lose stage advantage.

Also, I have difficulty getting back on stage due to his dash attack covering every get up option except roll. If I roll and he reads me, I eat an up smash. I've tried ledge drop Fair, but I usually just trade and end up back in the same situation.

What are my best options to deal with this custom Fox? I appreciate any input.
His Side B seems like it could be dealt with same way as regular side b, with vertical needles, so try that.

Against Twister Fox just don't challenge it or learn how to properly challenge it maybe with fair or bouncing fish if it's possible. Fair has a disjointed hitbox so it will most likely be guaranteed to work, and again there's aerial needles.

For the ledge options, wait out his dash attack then drop down > jump > fair for a punish. Or you could drop down > jump into stage > airdodge and you can then use bair before you hit the ground. Even ledge getup attack might work.
 

FatalVindicator

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I've tried fair against tw
His Side B seems like it could be dealt with same way as regular side b, with vertical needles, so try that.

Against Twister Fox just don't challenge it or learn how to properly challenge it maybe with fair or bouncing fish if it's possible. Fair has a disjointed hitbox so it will most likely be guaranteed to work, and again there's aerial needles.

For the ledge options, wait out his dash attack then drop down > jump > fair for a punish. Or you could drop down > jump into stage > airdodge and you can then use bair before you hit the ground. Even ledge getup attack might work.[/QUOT
Bouncing fish definitely loses to twisting fox, but I'll work on my needle angles for both of his recovery options. I forgot about drop down, jump, air dodge. I'll try these out. Thanks for the suggestions.
 

exnecross

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From 0%: Fair > Grab > Fthrow > SHFF Fair > SHFF Fair > Grab > Fthrow > Bouncing Fish

This should work every single time regardless of DI.
Are you 100% sure about this? I find that fox can sometimes avoid the second fair if they know what they are doing. I've seen it in top level play also.

Maybe the first fair needs to be delayed a few frames so the second one comes out sooner?

I never drop it against falcon, roy, etc, but

-------------------------------

Also, I don't have time to write a proper analysis right now, but I will say this about Fox: be very conservative about ftilt use at low percent, it is incredibly unsafe against the space animal at low %.
 
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ArikadoSD

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Are you 100% sure about this? I find that fox can sometimes avoid the second fair if they know what they are doing. I've seen it in top level play also.

Maybe the first fair needs to be delayed a few frames so the second one comes out sooner?

I never drop it against falcon, roy, etc, but
I'm sure. But I know what you're talking about, sometimes the combo doesn't work and I don't know why, haven't looked into it because I'm lazy. My first guess would be maybe it works slightly later than it usually should on other characters cuz he falls so fast. I might lab this soon.
 

exnecross

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I'm sure. But I know what you're talking about, sometimes the combo doesn't work and I don't know why, haven't looked into it because I'm lazy. My first guess would be maybe it works slightly later than it usually should on other characters cuz he falls so fast. I might lab this soon.
Well I say this because, again, I am like 99% consistent with fthrow > fair > fair > grab on characters like Falcon and Roy, but with Fox it does not always work, and there's not enough time to do a positioned falling fair after the throw, so I am not certain that it is inescapable for the Fox. At the very least, it is noticeably more precise. Would be interesting to know why it fails.
 
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Illuminose

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fox seems to get sent further (or just lower?) by fthrow. I've always had trouble getting more than bouncing fish on fox consistently.
 
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