Sheik: man or woman?

[Raustblackdragon]

I am not talking about in The smash series, it's pretty clear sheik's a girl there. I mean in ocarina of time. I was wondering about any theories or proof anybody has for either side, man or woman, that does not come from smash brothers.

What I think happened is that in ocarina of time, Sheik was a man, and to avoid issues in melee, concerning the subject of gender shifting, they made sheik a woman.

I know it isn't exactly a crucial bit of information, but every time I look for a man or woman sheik debate, every argument for sheik being a woman uses smash brothers, a non-canon appearance, as evidence.

Example:

Man argument: Sheik's official character art in OOT has a clearly masculine and muscular build, shorter hair, different eye color from Zelda, and various other traits that clearly aren't simply a costume change, as many Sheik female arguers have said, but rather a shape-shift.

Woman argument:

(A quote from the DOJO with the word HER capitalized, bolded, underlined, in big print, and italicized.) Debate closed.


I think you can see how this might be annoying, since Smash brothers is by no means canon. Olimar never made his pikmin into a living chain, and ROB doesn't come packaged with fully functional jet-thrusters.

Anyone like to bring any points up?

 

[Tristan_win]

Let It Die

And Use The Search Option.

 

[Cobra]

My last post on a long debating thread...

(My last post on the thread "Sheik confirmed...to be a girl!"...it's still on the same page of this thread if you wanna see.)

I can't believe this was ever a debate...did anyone who ever said that Sheik was a man finish Ocarina?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vjIaokM--Pk

...I mean c'mon people, it's right there!

She holds up her hand and shows us that she has the Triforce of Wisdom. Sheik = Zelda.

She also clearly states that she is Sheik and that she was just disguising herself. Even with magic, disguising yourself to be a guy, does not make you a guy.


Zelda is a girl ... Sheik is Zelda ... Sheik = a Girl.


...Sheik's identity is clearly shown in the video linked above. Like Rat said ..."Occam's Razor" people! She's Zelda, it was a disguise to fool Ganon, she's a Female. END OF STORY!

 

[Brawler9477]

*claps for Cobra*

 

[Nymphetamine]

Sheik is a girl end of story.

 

[Lord_Naomasa]

I know she is a girl but on defense of the other side, IF a lady transformed into a dog, does that mean she is still human? OK, so Sheik is Zelda, well when she transformed maybe she transformed into a guy. Only way we can truly know is if the creator told us himself. I personally see Sheik as a girl since there would be little reason to become a guy. What I am saying is it still can be Zelda, just in guy form. Im saying its a possibility that Sheik could be a guy who would still be Zelda but I find that just kinda dumb. I personally think(know) that sheik is a girl. The defense that Sheik is Zelda thus Sheik is a girl is dumb because its magic we are talking about, anything is possible. Maybe by turning into a guy Zelda would offset Gannons suspicion. This also has its problems because I doubt Gannon would be any less suspicious of a Ninja than he would be of Zelda. Its a possibility that Sheik can be a guy, but the thing that really kills it in a way is------There is no point of Zelda changing genders. Why would she?

 

[Slifer-san]

I know she is a girl but on defense of the other side, IF a lady transformed into a dog, does that mean she is still human?

Just like to point out that gender and species are two different things

 

[Lord_Naomasa]

Just like to point out that gender and species are two different things

Well, if you want to get in all these dumb specifics and for the sake of arguement, the only way to know is from the creator themselves. The wolf in Twilight princess did not have a ***** so does that mean that Link was a female wolf? We could argue forever but the only way to know is from the creator of the creation.

 

[TheLake]

Who cares zelds better anyways ^_^

 

[Cobra]

Its a possibility that Sheik can be a guy, but the thing that really kills it in a way is------There is no point of Zelda changing genders. Why would she?

Exactly, that's the whole freakin point. There's no reason to, she could dress up as a guy, change hair color and appearance and still trick Ganon. Therefore using a principle called 'Occams Razor' (the theory which states that "All other things being equal, the simplest solution is the best.") ...Sheik is a girl.

...just because it CAN be done with magic, doesn't mean it WAS done. I will admit that the possibility was THERE, but for it to be carried through is just silly as it would be completely unnecessary for her to do so.

Characters in video games such as the wolf not having male genitalia is not meant to create ambiguity, it's to avoid vulgarity in a video game. Here's my take on your the only way to know is from the creator comments :

The creator wrote the storyline, int he story Zelda disguises herself as Sheik with hair and eye color changes, and costumes herself as a ninja. She then reveals herself for her true identity of Zelda.

Boom, simple...and I'm sure that's his intent and I'm almost positive he never would have debated whether Zelda was a guy or not in Sheik form, he probably would have just said, the magic made her look different and sound different so she could fool people with her outward appearance. The whole problem is that this entire ******** debate was started by a piece of NON-CANON manga that stated that Sheik was a man.

 

[SheikahKun]

In my eyes, Sheik will always be a girl. However there will be countless evidences whereas someone will state that in OOT they say "he". To me it's just how one sees her as.

 

[Luthien]

Oh, dear lord. Another one?

First of all, as much as this thread seems destined to descend into vulgarity, I applaud its creator for attempting to end a longstanding and completely ridiculous debate.

Secondly, the entire arguement for Sheik supposedly being male is based on ONE single, in-game quote. When you encounter Ruto as an "adult" (is 17 really an adult?) in OoT, she explains why she isn't frozen like the rest of the Zoras; she was saved by a Sheikah, refered to as male. However, it is important to note two things about this; 1) This is the first time Ruto met Sheik, and from Sheik's previous behavior we can infer that it probably consisted of Sheik helping Ruto out, then disappearing before any questions can be asked about who she is (like she does with Link) and 2) It wouldn't be a very convincing disguise if Ruto, who isn't the brightest star in the sky, didn't fall for it. Sheik is SUPPOSED to look like a dude. The other characters are SUPPOSED to think she's a dude. Why? Because, contrary to what some people would have us believe, gamers aren't stupid. If Zelda disguised herself as a Sheikah GIRL, any idiot in their right mind would have put two and two together the first time she showed up. So Nintendo disguised her as a guy, which takes neither no ammount of magic or surgery, just watch movies like Some Like It Hot or She's the Man or any number of other movies.

And while some people regard Sheik's appearances in the Smash Bros. series non-cannon, her classic trophy from Melee (which refers to her as female) IS cannon, by virtue of the fact that its sole purpose is to breifly summarize Sheik's cannonical history.

Ladies and gentlemen, Sheik is no longer a potato.

For every time a "Sheik: Male or Female?" thread is created, 57 billion braincells die.

 

[Ninjack]

 

[S2]

Sheik was a girl in OOT, they simply made her look masculine to try and hide the fact that she was Zelda.

Seriously, anyone who argues otherwise doesn't understand common sense or trolling for no good reason.


As for Sheik's TP design (Her Brawl model is based on a design for TP, even though she ended up not being used) probably reflects the fact that Sheik's identity is no longer a mistery. That is, Sheik having the ponytail and chest. The only reason Sheik was so masculine in OOT was to fool the player. Since they don't have to anymore, they changed the design to be more feminine.

 

[Kricu]

Thank you Luthien for shutting down another one of these pointless threads. People just don't use the search function.

 

[Brawler9477]

Sorry if i keep putting fuel on the fire here for posting some more info on Sheik because I dont know if this thread is dead or not. Anyway...

Ive never ever played the full OoT (Yes i admit it). But Sheik was a disguise so Ganon couldnt capture Princess Zelda. You'd probably be surprised from how much info you get from reading trophies in Melee and in Brawl . And remember, Zelda appeared to Link as Sheik when hes an adult.

 

[hippochinfat!!]

"If you simply press the special-move button once, Sheik will just produce a floppy stringlike object and then quickly put it away."

Straight from the dojo.

 

[AuraMarth]

Sheik was always a woman...

 

[Nymphetamine]

Shes a girl!
read the trophy in melee ( i havnt read the brawl ones )
she has boobs
case closed

 

[ShadowRegulus]

People who bring Occam's Razor to this argument clearly do not understand the principle's application.

It's just as much of an assumption that Zelda merely dresses up as a man as it is one that she uses magic to transform into a man (she already uses magic to change her skintone and eye color, among other things). As far as I can tell, neither idea is more in tune with Occam's Razor than the other.

 

[Cobra]

People who bring Occam's Razor to this argument clearly do not understand the principle's application.

It's just as much of an assumption that Zelda merely dresses up as a man as it is one that she uses magic to transform into a man (she already uses magic to change her skintone and eye color, among other things). As far as I can tell, neither idea is more in tune with Occam's Razor than the other.

Occam's principle fits easily into the situation if you step back and look at the situation. First off, you would have to assume that magically changing your hair color and eyes only is infinitely easier then changing your entire sex and body structure. Also look at it from this perspective :

Sheik's costume kept her covered from head to toe, except for an open space on her face where her hair and eyes could be seen and small portions of her fingers...wouldn't it make sense then to alter ONLY those two features that could most easily be seen by people?

Why drastically alter your entire gender, when you could just as easily hide yourself behind a costume and alter only those parts people could notice in a chance encounter. I would think that most of the time she was in Sheik form, Zelda was not allowing anyone close enough to her to start wondering anything else. As a Sheikah, most people should barely even know of her existence at all, let alone the person behind the mask, their gender, or anything else about them.

 

[ShadowRegulus]

Assuming that it's harder to change one's entire gender when magic is involved is already a huge assumption, and is just as much of an assumption as is assuming that she has clothing that visibly alters the musculature of her limbs.. And regardless, Occam's Razor is a starting point, it is not a be-all-end-all guide to a solution.

 

[Cobra]

Assuming that it's harder to change one's entire gender when magic is involved is already a huge assumption, and is just as much of an assumption as is assuming that she has clothing that visibly alters the musculature of her limbs.. And regardless, Occam's Razor is a starting point, it is not a be-all-end-all guide to a solution.

...from what we know of magic (which is what is presented to us in the OoT world), we know a few thing:

- Magic for every individual person is limited.

- Certain abilities cost more magic then others.

...from these two simple facts, we can easily say using more magic, costs more energy. with this in mind, one can gather that a technique involving changing only someone's eye/hair color would most likely be easier then changing your entire musculature, anatomy and features, since doing more costs more. Now granted, in OoT, Zelda seems to be able to pretty easily dispel her Sheik costume to return to the full garb of her princess wear, but, we've never seen her transform back into Sheik from Zelda, so we have no real way of knowing if one would take longer then the other. (though we could assume that it doesn't).

, Magic is one thing, but the actual situation, no matter how fantastical it seems...is another. Zelda had no reason to ANATOMICALLY change her gender. Regardless of magically changed outward physical attributes, changing the internal organs to be re-arranged and re-formatted to be male rather then female would be INSANE. The hormone levels alone and anatomical connections would be so complex within a change that I can't even list them without going past a character limit for this post. keeping this in mind, let's go on...

At the base of the argument there is this question. Is Sheik a Man or a Woman?

Well, we know Sheik has the Triforce of Wisdom and that Zelda is the Keeper of the Triforce of Wisdom, so that would mean Sheik = Zelda. Also, we all know Zelda is a female.

...all other things remaining equal, The amount of change that would be required to CHANGE someone into a man rather then just making them LOOK like a man is insurmountable, even with magic. It cannot be said that using magic all things are equally simple, that argument is just ridiculous when it comes down to DRASTICALLY altering a persons anatomy to the degree of difference between male and female. That point is also refuted by the fact that magic in OoT has been shown to have differing degrees of difficulty and energy consumed for each technique in the game that we know of.

..as such, you MUST assume that making yourself look like a man is easier then becoming a man... and by Occam's razor, at this point, we must assume that she went with the easier solution of making herself simply LOOK like man. Therefore it is most easily assumed that Sheik is female, going with the easier/simpler argument that she was just disguising herself as a man to fool Ganondorf and everyone else...which is what EVERY piece of OoT evidence would lead us to believe.

 

[Nymphetamine]

...from what we know of magic (which is what is presented to us in the OoT world), we know a few thing:

- Magic for every individual person is limited.

- Certain abilities cost more magic then others.

...from these two simple facts, we can easily say that a technique involving changing only someone's eye/hair color is much easier then changing your entire musculature, anatomy and features. Now granted, in OoT, Zelda seems to be able to pretty easily dispel her Sheik costume to return to the full garb of her princess wear, but, we've never seen her transform back into Sheik from Zelda, so we have no real way of knowing if one would take longer then the other. (though we could assume that it doesn't).

,basically all I'm trying to say here is this : Magic is one thing, but the actual situation, no matter how fantastical it seems...is another. Zelda had no reason to ANATOMICALLY change her gender. Regardless of magically changed physical attributes, changing the internal organs to be re-arranged and re-formatted to be male rather then female would be INSANE. The hormone levels alone and anatomical connections would be so complex within a change that I can't even list them without going past a character limit for this post.

At the base of the argument there is this question. Is Sheik a Man or a Woman?

Well, we know Sheik has the Triforce of Wisdom and that Zelda is the Keeper of the Triforce of Wisdom, so that would mean Sheik = Zelda. Since we all know Zelda is a female, If Sheik = Zelda and Zelda = female ... Sheik = female.

...all other things remaining equal, The amount of change that would be required to CHANGE someone into a man rather then just making them LOOK like a man is insurmountable, even with magic. It cannot be said that using magic all things are equally simple, that argument is just ridiculous when it comes down to DRASTICALLY altering a persons anatomy to the degree of difference between male and female. This is also supported by the fact that magic has differing degrees of difficulty and energy to use as shown by the different techniques in the game.

..as such, you MUST assume that making yourself look like a man is easier then becoming a man. By Occam's razor, at this point, we must assume that she went with the easier solution of making herself look like man...therefore it is most easily assumed that Sheik is female, and not male and has simply disguised herself which is what EVERY piece of OoT evidence leads us to believe.

im sure this will make things clear to people

 

[lilaznkitty]

She is obviously a girl because 1.)She has breasts yea we all know that 2.)Zelda is a girl, and Sheik is her ALTER EGO. If your alter ego is not the same gender as you we got a problem 3.) Well I kinda forgot this reason =P

 

[Waddle]

Woman .

 

[Kricu]

Cobra I salute you for your theoretical analysis of this. I'm sure you didn't need to go so in depth with the theory behind it but I applaud you for doing so.

 

[RedMage8BT]

Sheik's a woman, and pretty hot one at that.

 

[Jammo]

 

[SheikahBlood]

Sheik is a Woman

 

[rampant_apart]

Let.
It.
Die.
Please.