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Sheik isn't fun

rye_un

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
43
Location
Alexandria, Virginia
Well I am currently learning Doctor Mario and I was wondering until what percent is chain grabbing Sheik not effective?
Also at what percent can dsmash start being a good kill move?
These are just some questions that I have for the match up.
 
Last edited:

schmooblidon

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
496
NOTE: All of the percents listed here are the damage AFTER the throw. Since knockback is calculated by the damage after the hit it's more exact this way. To see the percents BEFORE the throw, subtract however much the throw will be doing (generally 4-6 for D-Throw and 6-8 for U-Throw).
'Overall Range' is the range(s) that you are able to regrab them regardless of DI so long as you time the grab correctly vertically, and position it correctly horizontally. The jump out damage used is when you can regrab as long as you are in the general area of horizontal positioning, and may be lower than the 'Best' jump out % which is when the very top of the circular grab boxes are what connects and can reach slightly higher.

'Stand-Grab' and 'JC-Grab' are the ranges you can regrab them off full away and full behind DI while standing still and ranges you can JC regrab them, respectively.

'Jump-Out % Best' is the highest possible damage you can get a regrab off no DI that is impossible to jump out of. Some of the ones with very small hurtboxes you're grabbing such as their leg requires very specific positioning for it to connect at this percent, so it's not always something that'd be possible to do reliably.

'Jump-Out % Wrong' is around the percent you'll be able to get a regrab off of no DI/near no DI that can't be jumped out of if you try to grab in the wrong direction and they come down slightly behind you. Its difference is more apparent when trying to grab small hurtboxes. For example if you normally grab them fine off no DI by grabbing while facing forward and they DI slightly behind you and you don't notice it a grab while facing forward might not be able to catch them until they fall a bit further down and may give them the time to jump out. Walking forwards slightly then turning and grabbing or dash pivot grabbing will help cover the weaker area of coverage in the middle shared by the 2 directions.

'Lag' is how many frames of lag you have after they're released. It's greater for the heavier characters because both the D/U-Throws are affected by their weight and increased weight slows down the throw animation.

D-Throw (6 Damage included)

Stun .Damage

------------
31 ... 0-1 (you can't have 0-1% after the throw but that's what it would be)

32 ... 2-12
33 .. 13-23
34 .. 24-34
35 .. 35-45
36 .. 46-57
37 .. 58-68
38 .. 69-79
39 .. 80-90
40 .. 91-101
41 . 102-112
42 . 113-123
43 . 125-135
etc...

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|

| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Bowser ..| 13-21 .| .2-21 13-21 | 24-64 . 35-60 .| .42 . 36 .| 25 |

|.........| 35-42 .| ............| ...............| ..........| ...|
|CF ......| 53-153 | .N/A . N/A .| 46-196 .53-196 | 154 .145 .| 23 |
|DK ......| 13-15 .| .N/A .13-15 | 13-51 . 24-30 .| .18 . 13 .| 25 |
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 35-39 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| .......| ............| ....... 46-47..| ..........| ...|
|Falco ...| 33-200+| .6-33 .N/A .| 21-200+ 33-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Fox .....| 55-200+| 26-39 .N/A .| 45-200+ 55-200+| 200+ 200+ | 17 |
|Ganon ...| 13-16 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-53 . 13-16 .| .36 ...7 .| 24 |
|.........| 24-31 .| ............| ....... 24-31 .| ..........| ...|
|.........| 35-36 .| ............| ....... 35-38 .| ..........| ...|
|Link ....| 13-40 .| .N/A . N/A .| .6-64 . 13-63 .| .40 . 25 .| 23 |
|Pichu ...| .0-27 .| .0-41 .N/A .| .0-43 .. 0-43 .| .27 .. 3 .| 13 |
|Pikachu .| .0-27 .| .0-25 .N/A .| .0-42 .. 0-42 .| .27 . 17 .| 17 |
|Roy .....| .0-50 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-76 .. 0-76 .| .52 . 38 .| 19 |
|Sheik ...| .0-65 .| .0-26 .N/A .| .0-83 .. 0-83 .| .67 . 50 .| 20 |
|Y Link ..| .0-39 .| .0-20 .N/A .| .0-60 .. 0-60 .| .39 . 33 .| 19 |
|Yoshi ...| 13-24 .| .N/A . 2-24 | 13-27 . 24-35 .| .24 . 24 .| 24 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

U-Throw (8 Damage included)

|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|Character| Overall| .Stand-Grab | ... JC-Grab ...| Jump-Out %| Lag|

| ........| Ranges.| Front Behind| Front . Behind | Best Wrong| ...|
|---------|--------|-------------|----------------|-----------|----|
|CF ......| 13-51 .| .N/A . N/A .| 10-66 . 13-66 .| .51 . 49 .| 23 |

|Falco ...| .0-73 .| .0-8 . N/A .| .0-89 .. 0-89 .| .74 . 66 .| 17 |
|Fox .....| .0-65 .| .N/A . N/A .| .0-78 .. 0-79 .| .65 . 60 .| 17 |
--------------------------------------------------------------------

Important stuff about them:

Ganon: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 7. You grab his leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Link: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 25.
Pichu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 3.
Pikachu: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 17.
Roy: Grab BEHIND you for no DI or else they can start jumping out after 38, and if you don't walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI they can start jumping out after 46.
Sheik: You grab her leg which is a small target so your horizontal aim with the grab is important. Very slight DI can mess it up if you grab in the wrong direction for it, so walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe.
Y Link: Though it looks like he's mostly behind you, grabbing behind for no DI will miss after 32 so either grab in front or walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to be safe which gets his head. Grab behind you, walk->turn or dash->pivot grab to grab his leg after 34.
Yoshi: Grab a bit early to get his head and not the body which doesn't dip down nearly as low during the tumble.

Falco (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 60 or so.
Fox (U-Throw): Walk->turn or dash->pivot grab for no DI after 50 or so.
tl;dr 65% after throw damage.

Smashmac says Dsmash "Tends to usually kill Sheik at 110% or so." But that's incredibly vague, so I'm gunna test it for you.

Sheik can tech a Dsmash and live until ridiculous percent if she does the correct stuff, but at like 200%+ she's gunna need to cancel momentum perfectly to survive and it will leave her vunerable.

At the edge of Final Destination
Hit at ~120% with Good DI
In the middle of FD
Hit at ~140% with Good DI

At the edge of Battlefield
Hit at ~115% with Good DI
In the middle of bf
Hit at ~140% with Good DI

At the edge of Dreamland
Hit at ~130% with Good DI
In the middle of dl
Hit at ~160% with Good DI

At the edge of Yoshis
Hit at ~95% with Good DI
In the middles of y's
Hit at ~125% with Good DI

At the edge of Fountain of Dreams
Hit at ~110% with Good DI
In the middle of FoD
Hit at ~135% with Good DI

At the edge of Pokemon Stadium
Hit at ~105% with Good DI
In the middle of ps
Hit at ~135% with Good DI

Lower percents won't kill straight up, but will put you in an edgeguarding situation that can be easily converted into a kill. If she DIs bad, you can - 30% or so on these values and she'll be dead.
 
Last edited:

rye_un

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2014
Messages
43
Location
Alexandria, Virginia
tl;dr 65% after throw damage.

Smashmac says Dsmash "Tends to usually kill Sheik at 110% or so." But that's incredibly vague, so I'm gunna test it for you.

Sheik can tech a Dsmash and live until ridiculous percent if she does the correct stuff, but at like 200%+ she's gunna need to cancel momentum perfectly to survive and it will leave her vunerable.

At the edge of Final Destination
Hit at ~120% with Good DI
In the middle of FD
Hit at ~140% with Good DI

At the edge of Battlefield
Hit at ~115% with Good DI
In the middle of bf
Hit at ~140% with Good DI

At the edge of Dreamland
Hit at ~130% with Good DI
In the middle of dl
Hit at ~160% with Good DI

At the edge of Yoshis
Hit at ~95% with Good DI
In the middles of y's
Hit at ~125% with Good DI

At the edge of Fountain of Dreams
Hit at ~110% with Good DI
In the middle of FoD
Hit at ~135% with Good DI

At the edge of Pokemon Stadium
Hit at ~105% with Good DI
In the middle of ps
Hit at ~135% with Good DI

Lower percents won't kill straight up, but will put you in an edgeguarding situation that can be easily converted into a kill. If she DIs bad, you can - 30% or so on these values and she'll be dead.
Thank you so much for collecting all of this data for me and I hope to become a better Doc now :nervous: :nervous: :nervous:
 

St. Viers

Smash Champion
Joined
May 15, 2006
Messages
2,409
Location
Boston MA
I enjoy playing against shiek, but they never camp enough to make it as frustrating as it could be. Some practical tips related to what you're asking though, @ rye_un rye_un :

1. Don't worry too, too much about killing shiek with D-smash. If you can get her off the ledge, her recovery is pretty easy to punish even if she doesn't die. Force her to recover on stage (by taking the edge and refreshing invincibility frames), and then just grab her, pummel, and throw her off again.

2. Memorize those percents linked earlier, and learn when you can actually kill with d-throw ->f-air. The game becomes much easier when you aren't guessing, and it makes your ability to punish players much more reliable (doc doesn't get many chances to be in the driver seat, so making the most of those opportunities is key).
 
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