Sheik F-tilt / Jab Cancel trouble with Marth

[Flamingo777]

Recently one of my opponents has taken up Marth as a main, so during our matches I took the action that any fellow Sheik main would, dtilt -> ftilt lock to around 50 and from there try some needles, and Jab Cancel combos, but I cant seem to get a second f-tilt off nor follow up a jab cancel with anything because Marth's counter nullifies that, and so does the Dolphin Slash.

But the point is that I would like to know some strategies that maybe some fellow Sheik players have developed to counter Marth. As we all know, Sheik has a general disadvantage against Marth because of out-ranged and out-prioritized aerials that he posesses.

Despite my greivances against this Martha scum, I beat my friend most of the time on all stages excluding battlefield (Maybe because of more experience with my character). But all I've got is to use flurry of jabs and needles to a decent %:

1. Then try to pressure f-air off the screen far enough so he cant get back -> tether recovery -> use invincibility frames to gimp and escape stage spike.

2. Zelda swap after a knockback. (And don't tell me I should have started the match with her, this is under Sheik discussion ya know .

3. Dominate with up+B

All help is much appreciated!

 

[Lore]

To be honest, I'm having a little trouble against Martha as well.

I always try to mix up all sorts of crap with f-tilts and jabs. If he counters a lot, just start using dash attacks for a bit. Then when he keeps thinking you are going to do dash attack, use a sliding, charged up smash. Works really well against Marth.

 

[Villi]

Wow, if he's getting dolphin slash out on your first ftilt, that's pretty rough. Try to catch him off guard or just shield after ftilting and punish his dolphin slash. If you manage to catch him off guard, finish it off quickly with a nair so at least you're racking up decent damage.

Use more grabs and if he's wise to your usual follow-ups, switch it up.

 

[Flamingo777]

Wow, if he's getting dolphin slash out on your first ftilt, that's pretty rough. Try to catch him off guard or just shield after ftilting and punish his dolphin slash. If you manage to catch him off guard, finish it off quickly with a nair so at least you're racking up decent damage.

Use more grabs and if he's wise to your usual follow-ups, switch it up.

Thank you guys, keep the strats coming =D. And I like the 1-2 f-tilt to shield -> nair, sexxxy!

 

[__V]

Grab him when he Counters.

 

[-Mars-]

Apparently, he can't technically DS out of your ftilt. Ryoko mentioned this but to be honest I haven't mastered it yet.

 

[Zankoku]

It's a very small threshold that I wouldn't risk for racking damage with but is too good to ignore for leading straight into usmash at KO %s with.

 

[-Mars-]

It's a very small threshold that I wouldn't risk for racking damage with but is too good to ignore for leading straight into usmash at KO %s with.

I think I understand the concept now. Ftilt hits on frame 4 and DS hits on frame 5. Since DS has invincibility frames on frame 1 of the move, that is why Marth is able to escape it at times. The timing for it has to be precise but since ftilt comes out faster, it technically can't break him out.........am I wrong?

 

[Villi]

It's usually not a problem for me to get two ftilts off and finish it off with a fair or nair then repeat and back off or do something else entirely. Finishing tilt combos off with fairs/nairs that lead into more tilts to aerials can get Marth into up smash tipper kill percents rapetastically quickly.

There's really no way someone can react to an ftilt with a dolphin slash outside of pure reflex as quickly as the first try. I feel safe doing two. If I see them reacting too quickly, I know that they're doing something I can easily exploit.

 

[Zankoku]

I think I understand the concept now. Ftilt hits on frame 4 and DS hits on frame 5. Since DS has invincibility frames on frame 1 of the move, that is why Marth is able to escape it at times. The timing for it has to be precise but since ftilt comes out faster, it technically can't break him out.........am I wrong?

....what? No, the lack of hitstun at certain %'s/decays is what allows Marth to escape with DS. It has nothing to do with reflexes or timing.

 

[-Mars-]

....what? No, the lack of hitstun at certain %'s/decays is what allows Marth to escape with DS. It has nothing to do with reflexes or timing.

Wow, and I was pleased with myself for supposedly figuring it out.

 

[Flamingo777]

....what? No, the lack of hitstun at certain %'s/decays is what allows Marth to escape with DS. It has nothing to do with reflexes or timing.

But after ftilting this guy when using characters such as fox (muhuahaha! ) where I can get huge quantities of damage easily without him being able to do anything about it, he now thinks that counter/DS is the correct answer to Sheik's ftilt, so Ankoku, would the correct approach be to do a shield grab after the first ftilt to safely predict? And this method being true to the other characters who have instantaneous special attacks (B attacks) that might cancel the lock?

Also, I know I started this topic for the reason of anti-Marth tactics, but someone used an interesting tactic with an Olimar against me recently, and tried to escape the ftilt with an Olimar Down+B Whistle that grants him Super Armor. Have any of you encountered this approach by Olimar, and if so, could he escape it? In my case, the Olimar failed and got trapped in the lock even further *hehe*. Was this failure of my opponent because of inexperience with Olimar, or can Whistle maybe escape ftilt?

PS btw I played my first official tourney today and I am proud to say that I shut out someone that I rarely could beat before, it's amazing how the tournament setting really alter's one's gameplay, it sure affected me!

 

[Zankoku]

I don't normally go for ftilt lock unless it's a character I know it locks (space animals, Ganon, MK), and otherwise I just do ftilt nair or ftilt dsmash for a quick 20% or so damage. Getting proper decay lets you even tiltlock characters like Yoshi, though, but you'll have to get a feel for it before you can figure out how to set that stuff up.

Against Marth, either dsmash before he realizes you hit him with an ftilt or shield and pay attention to his reaction. If he DS's out, that earns you a free nair/uair/fair/bair/usmash/grab/whatever the hell you want. If he fairs, then it's a shieldgrab. If he gets used to it and punishes you, that's when you either ftilt more or dsmash to just end it early.

 

[Blistering Speed]

I think I understand the concept now. Ftilt hits on frame 4 and DS hits on frame 5. Since DS has invincibility frames on frame 1 of the move, that is why Marth is able to escape it at times. The timing for it has to be precise but since ftilt comes out faster, it technically can't break him out.........am I wrong?

For the record, he is invincible frame 1-4.

 

[-Mars-]

For the record, he is invincible frame 1-4.

I'm aware of that. I was just mentioning that he has invinciblity on the very first possible frame.

 

[Flamingo777]

I'm aware of that. I was just mentioning that he has invinciblity on the very first possible frame.

Yeah, and its not that bad of ftilt punishment, I can endure it because if I am at a low %, it usually gives me time to punish, with an even stranger atk than DS at that.

 

[Ominous]

if you ever vs a Marth who love's to Counter... then use slid grab's or you're nide's... both way's after the Counter has finished there's a lag for Marth to do anythink...

 

[Flamingo777]

if you ever vs a Marth who love's to Counter... then use slid grab's or you're nide's... both way's after the Counter has finished there's a lag for Marth to do anythink...

True, I guess I should needlecamp and make the Martha pest approach.

 

[~Train Heartnet~]

you can do that or sd then do like f tilt or somethink

 

[Blistering Speed]

you can do that or sd then do like f tilt or somethink

Im really close to sigging this. Seriously, too good.

But to be on topic, F Tilt to D Smash or bait the DS.

 

[Rawr_]

I hate getting c-c-c-combo breakered by up b, it's my main problem vs martha. I have to try some of these though, they sound pretty effective.