She isn't very good...

[haxfactory]

Well you have Witch time and bat within which are arguablely broken as f

To be fair, if you catch someone with Witch Time at 50% they probably aren't going to die.

And the bat isn't broken, essentially it is a second window for Witch Time, where you get no benefit other than reduced damage and no knockback, though you do move away so you lose positioning.

Hell, that whole thing could be active frames on Witch Time if you want, there are some counters that do last exceptionally long in this game.

I suspect due to Witch Time having Bat Within at the end, the active frames of Witch Time are much shorter than other counters but honestly, I'm at work and even if I wasn't I wouldn't feel like capturing footage and counting frames.

I figure if anything Bat Within probably makes Witch Time worse in the long run.

 

[Parisienne]

She is different than the trailer made her look, I'll give you that. Also I will agree that Corrin seems good from the get go but let's be real here, Bayo has some serious potential.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Initially, I thought the same thing. I'm not sure if this is a long time to spend with a character you don't like but I spent like 5 hours on her (giggity) after first getting her and at the end, I was so frustrated. She's such a difficult character and it doesn't help that I'm a very..... simple minded person who doesn't put much thought into how to play. I'm very fundimental. Not good for Bayonetta who you need to be creative in order to be successful. Eventually, though I did manage some things with her. Combo's, fun things to do with her (Giggity). Even then though...... well, how I said it in a skype chat I'm in says the most:

Bayonetta character review: Hopelessly banging your head against the brick wall of a tower you think is big because everyone says it is so you begin to crack way at that brick but in the process, you give yourself a concussion and have to go to the hospital and when you finally get treated, you go back to said wall and find you've only made a small crack at it so you start banging at it again AND THE PROCESS JUST REPEATS! WHY IS THIS CHARACTER SO HARD!?!

 

[Bayonettaismynewmain]

Bayonetta is amazing

 

[Shin Oni]

Bay is Bae. Her combo potential is beautiful when applied in the right fashion. Her kill options are near limitless, but this IS Day 1 discovery/ thoughts. After a couple of For Glory fights, I can closely say that her mix-up potential is frighteningly similar to Melee and plays like Project-M Lucario thanks to her cancels despite the A-cancels that Ryu has in Smash. She really plays close to the original game as Sakurai mentioned which is wonderful, meaning she can get very creative. Fair leads to kills and can be cancelled just timing the A-Tap and hopping across the (but has to hit), Bair is wonderful for kills and satisfying when used as RAR or after After Burner Kick, U-Air is a must when it comes to punishing airborne enemies above, D-Air meteors at the heel of her foot and you have recovery time to jump & Up-B if it hits which is crazy (Marth mains wish they had this) and can kill if not teched and high damage just on regular hit when the opponent is on the ground or platform. Witch Time is a jail-free card in most cases due to avoiding not just physical and projectile attacks but grabs as well (I wanna experiment if it avoids tether grabs as well and other goofy situations).

All in all, she's great.

 

[haxfactory]

After playing her again yesterday, I'm not sure I will pick her up at least for now. Online is full of Corrin's and that match up feels horrible from the Bayonetta side.

 

[Solaris_Noid]

Bayonetta just requires a different mindset than 90% of the cast, particularly with her recovery. Don't forget that if you AfterBurnerKick a ledge she can bounce off and grab it. I personally think her combos are easy(but I've played the hell out of Bayo 1/2 and I play traditional FG's more so that's just me), she feels so freeform with her combos.

Alot of people say her neutral game sucks and you just have to do a ton of spacing with tilts and Nair. You can roll/shield cancel her charged Bullet Arts so there's that. I think the only real pet peeve I have is that she doesn't have a pseudo-air dash like Ryu does with his air Focus Attack, all you can do out of that is dodge.


Bayo vs Corrin seems like it's in the latter's favor because he's alot easier to pick up and play and his Nair/Uair is stupid good. Add in the fact that he can do a bit of spacing with his Smash attacks since they have a tipper and Dragon Lunge mindgames and it's definitely a rough time, but I don't think it's unwinnable. It's only what, day 2 of both characters being released?

 

[haxfactory]

Unless Bayonetta is able to win the game without ever approaching or we find an efficient way in that Corrin can't deal with easily. Corrin will continue to set the pace of the game. The character setting the pace is typically going to have the advantage. We'll probably discover something eventually, but as of right now it feels like a 35/65 in Corrin's favor, maybe even 30/70. You just have to work so much harder as Bayonetta against Corrin. I don't doubt that will all change in the future. It's just not worth putting in the time now when about 80% of my match ups lately have put me against Corrin's. I get no practice with other match ups and losing so much isn't great for moral.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Unless Bayonetta is able to win the game without ever approaching or we find an efficient way in that Corrin can't deal with easily. Corrin will continue to set the pace of the game. The character setting the pace is typically going to have the advantage. We'll probably discover something eventually, but as of right now it feels like a 35/65 in Corrin's favor, maybe even 30/70. You just have to work so much harder as Bayonetta against Corrin. I don't doubt that will all change in the future. It's just not worth putting in the time now when about 80% of my match ups lately have put me against Corrin's. I get no practice with other match ups and losing so much isn't great for moral.

You can just shoot and jump all over the place just to force your opponent to approach.
If the opponent lets us, the only time we need to approach is for the kill.
bAir is safe on shield by the way.

 

[onehundredhitz]

Yes, I was waiting for this thread and these type of comments. You delivered with no disappointment. Of course Corrin seems "beast", that's because Corrin is pick up and play easy. Baeonetta has a very deep and complex meta to her that most people really don't wanna take time to figure out. They just either wanna hop on FG or play with friends and win. That's why everybody's flocking to Corrin at the moment.

 

[LEGOfan12]

You just need to practice with her more. She can be deadly once you've gotten used to her.

 

[BlackCephie]

People have a tendancy to gravitate towards ease of use, but of course people have different minds.

I think that one of the main issues people have with her is that she has SO many options that you are not used to. She isnt a traditional smash character. Her translation is awesome, but she isnt straigh forward. Get some more practice and change your general approach. Using bayonetta is the first time ive ever had to change my contol scheme btw.

 

[blackghost]

Unless Bayonetta is able to win the game without ever approaching or we find an efficient way in that Corrin can't deal with easily. Corrin will continue to set the pace of the game. The character setting the pace is typically going to have the advantage. We'll probably discover something eventually, but as of right now it feels like a 35/65 in Corrin's favor, maybe even 30/70. You just have to work so much harder as Bayonetta against Corrin. I don't doubt that will all change in the future. It's just not worth putting in the time now when about 80% of my match ups lately have put me against Corrin's. I get no practice with other match ups and losing so much isn't great for moral.

that match won't stay on corrin's favor. offstage bayo gets so much off his recovery. plus free damage from bullet arts if he wants to space. corrin can stay way over there and i'll sh nair and fox laser him for free. plus once i get a hit the entire match goes in my favor.

 

[TyDye]

Yea like most people here I can't agree with this.

1- She is essentially ZSS with lasers.

2- She has gaurenteed combos with up throw (or d tilt), up b, side b, side b, and (up air, bair, fair, or dair) all the way up until opponent is over 100%. She can also use that second side b to retreat from the combo.

3- Her off stage game is insane giving her easy kill options at any %. Her d smash is a good ledge guard but if you counter your opponents recovery first, free spike and stock. Also her dair can spike and she can drop almost to the bottom blast zone with it and still recover, making her the queen of gimps.

All in all. I'm pretty sure she is going to be a very high top teir character.

 

[MysteriousSilver]

How can we seriously talk about the matchups of two characters who aren't even a week old? We don't know anything about them yet. No one is playing these character's optimally.

 

[LieSander]

It's definitely too early to tell, but I believe that at their most optimal play, bayonetta is a lot more frightening than corrin due to their skill caps. It might be a little hard to pull off, but if you land a d tilt or a hold side b at around 50% they're pretty much dead if you pull off the rest of the combo. Bae's advantage state is so overwhelming, but it requires a lot of knowledge and practice because of how flexible and complicated it is. Her reward for knowing how to truly play the character just dwarfs corrin's by comparison imo, so give it some time.

 

[Skyfox2000]

After playing her again yesterday, I'm not sure I will pick her up at least for now. Online is full of Corrin's and that match up feels horrible from the Bayonetta side.

Honestly, I'm scared to see what For Glory looks like now.

 

[haxfactory]

I picked her back up yesterday the standard combo is brain dead simple and good for 40%. It's kind of gross. I lost to a Bayonetta then decided to ditto them and was able to replicate the combo on my first attempt. I went on a run just destroying people in for glory. Even got a jv3 (it was against a Mac but still).

I've recently started to beat the Corrins just by playing extra safe but I'm a bit worried they will adapt and grab more often. Some are definitely better than others though. There are some especially bad ones actually that do nothing but try to hit the counter because of how ridiculously powerful it is.

Also how much do the bullets do on your aerials because I see a bunch of ticks hit the opponent with no change in percent? It looks like it's like 1/3 of a percent.

I'm not a huge fan of playing her actually it feels dirty that I can basically get 40% on a single side b hit confirm or throw. I've been playing her anyway because I've been winning but I'm the kind of guy that likes to work for it a bit.

 

[HeavyLobster]

Yes, I was waiting for this thread and these type of comments. You delivered with no disappointment. Of course Corrin seems "beast", that's because Corrin is pick up and play easy. Baeonetta has a very deep and complex meta to her that most people really don't wanna take time to figure out. They just either wanna hop on FG or play with friends and win. That's why everybody's flocking to Corrin at the moment.

Exactly. Corrin is a really easy character to play, while Bayonetta is hard and forces you to relearn your Smash habits. Corrin is very average overall, with a fairly lacking combo game, but has a cheesy Fsmash and Counter and Side-b. Corrin's the new Roy in that s/he's an easy flavor of the month that'll fall off once people adapt. Bayo will take time to develop but clearly has high tier tools. There might be a few bad MUs that keep her from being top, but I feel she's going to wind up somewhere in top 15 at least.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Excuse me, Bayonetta is ridiculous.

 

[Glicnak]

I picked her back up yesterday the standard combo is brain dead simple and good for 40%. It's kind of gross. I lost to a Bayonetta then decided to ditto them and was able to replicate the combo on my first attempt. I went on a run just destroying people in for glory. Even got a jv3 (it was against a Mac but still).

I've recently started to beat the Corrins just by playing extra safe but I'm a bit worried they will adapt and grab more often. Some are definitely better than others though. There are some especially bad ones actually that do nothing but try to hit the counter because of how ridiculously powerful it is.

Also how much do the bullets do on your aerials because I see a bunch of ticks hit the opponent with no change in percent? It looks like it's like 1/3 of a percent.

I'm not a huge fan of playing her actually it feels dirty that I can basically get 40% on a single side b hit confirm or throw. I've been playing her anyway because I've been winning but I'm the kind of guy that likes to work for it a bit.

Get off for glory. Let me promise you bayonetta is probably one of the hardest characters ive ever tried to play.. Which includes my old main bowser jr. Yeah she can get 40-50% off of one setup, but first of all most of her moves are so slow a good player can react to them on sight, which means you can only throw out moves when the opponent puts themself in a bad situation. Then, most of her moves are slow and have no disjoint, meaning its ridiculously hard to get her spacing right. She also has a terrible grab.

I think she has the potential to be amazing but right now she has 0 neutral game. Of course playing ppl on for glory will be easy. Theyre usually just playing for fun and nothing thinking about the matchup. Go play on anthers and see how far that initial 40% gets you when you cant land another hit after that haha

 

[Ghidorah14]

I'm just going to repost what I said in the bayo social, as I believe it's relevant:


I think people having trouble with learning bayonetta ("how does she neutral??") should watch this cutscene very carefully.

https://youtu.be/o_BZ8XUXdms?t=1h

Notice how she goads the angels into attacking her? And how she doesnt make the first move? This is reflective of how she plays in the actual game; bait, dodge, punish. Sure, she can jump in and start throwing punches, but most enemies can parry or super armor through some of her attacks.

And whats her most iconic technique? Witch Time, a mechanic that requires you to wait for an attack so that you can dodge it. Plus, those taunts we all love so much? In the games, taunting an angel makes it absolutely livid. They get stronger, sure, but they also start attacking more often and more recklessly.

So why would you want to taunt? Because aggro'd enemies give a bonus to your combo score and drop more halos. The whole "bait and punish" playstyle is literally built into the game, and it has translated to smash very well.

"She has no neutral game and her frame data isnt very good." Well yeah, thats intentional. She isnt a rushdown character. And unlike say, meta knight, you cant outcamp her thanks to her bullet arts. You are forced to approach her. Why do you think her bullet arts are unable to stagger? Besides the fact that it'd be broken, they give people the illusion of "oh well, I can just run through these and hit her while she's shooting me." Nope! You shield or dodge, and then punish!

I truly believe that this is why so many people are having trouble "getting" bayonetta; she needs to be played HER way, not like a poor man's ZSS. The same thing happened with meta knight in the transition from brawl to smash4; MK wasnt the rushdown god of infinite reach anymore, and people didnt adapt until much, much later.

I hope this has made sense to some of y'all. This is just how I see things.

 

[Darklink2nd]

And whats her most iconic technique? Witch Time, a mechanic that requires you to wait for an attack so that you can dodge it. Plus, those taunts we all love so much? In the games, taunting an angel makes it absolutely livid. They get stronger, sure, but they also start attacking more often and more recklessly.

So why would you want to taunt? Because aggro'd enemies give a bonus to your combo score and drop more halos. The whole "bait and punish" playstyle is literally built into the game, and it has translated to smash very well.

"She has no neutral game and her frame data isnt very good." Well yeah, thats intentional. She isnt a rushdown character. And unlike say, meta knight, you cant outcamp her thanks to her bullet arts. You are forced to approach her. Why do you think her bullet arts are unable to stagger? Besides the fact that it'd be broken, they give people the illusion of "oh well, I can just run through these and hit her while she's shooting me." Nope! You shield or dodge, and then punish!

^ Pretty much this. Her neutral's not glorious in fact it's probably as bad as ZSS. But she can definitley out camp you with bullet arts like the whole game if need be and poke around with Nairs and Bairs. Eventually you'll need to come to her and once you do, if you mess up she'll gladly remove a stock for you.
It's very bait and punish...just a very flashy bait and punish, just like her original game.

 

[Bayonettaismynewmain]

After playing her again yesterday, I'm not sure I will pick her up at least for now. Online is full of Corrin's and that match up feels horrible from the Bayonetta side.

use witch time and you will be able to destroy corrin.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Glad to see several people get it. Bayo isnt flippin Mario or Cloud. She is not pick up and play. She takes time and dedication.

If you want easy wins with a simple and straight forward character, then Bayo isnt for you.

You should probably move on.

 

[TTTTTsd]

From experience she gets better once you start understanding how to divekick in neutral and Witch Twist stuff on reaction as an option. Then she just becomes amazing and you feel totally in control. Witch Twist is a crazy good move as is her divekicks.

She takes a lot of of effort and dedication (probably on the level of Ryu, comparable IMO) because she doesn't have stuff that she can just throw out in neutral all the time, and she has to play really smart.

It's why I like her as this really strong character, she's very execution based and it's awesome to see that kind of thing. I loved it with Ryu and I love it here.

 

[ThatStrangeDoll]

I'm just going to repost what I said in the bayo social, as I believe it's relevant:


I think people having trouble with learning bayonetta ("how does she neutral??") should watch this cutscene very carefully.

https://youtu.be/o_BZ8XUXdms?t=1h

Notice how she goads the angels into attacking her? And how she doesnt make the first move? This is reflective of how she plays in the actual game; bait, dodge, punish. Sure, she can jump in and start throwing punches, but most enemies can parry or super armor through some of her attacks.

And whats her most iconic technique? Witch Time, a mechanic that requires you to wait for an attack so that you can dodge it. Plus, those taunts we all love so much? In the games, taunting an angel makes it absolutely livid. They get stronger, sure, but they also start attacking more often and more recklessly.

So why would you want to taunt? Because aggro'd enemies give a bonus to your combo score and drop more halos. The whole "bait and punish" playstyle is literally built into the game, and it has translated to smash very well.

"She has no neutral game and her frame data isnt very good." Well yeah, thats intentional. She isnt a rushdown character. And unlike say, meta knight, you cant outcamp her thanks to her bullet arts. You are forced to approach her. Why do you think her bullet arts are unable to stagger? Besides the fact that it'd be broken, they give people the illusion of "oh well, I can just run through these and hit her while she's shooting me." Nope! You shield or dodge, and then punish!

I truly believe that this is why so many people are having trouble "getting" bayonetta; she needs to be played HER way, not like a poor man's ZSS. The same thing happened with meta knight in the transition from brawl to smash4; MK wasnt the rushdown god of infinite reach anymore, and people didnt adapt until much, much later.

I hope this has made sense to some of y'all. This is just how I see things.

someone that gets it.

 

[Stromp]

Not as good as I was expecting but she has pretty nice combo and and aerials

 

[BlackCephie]

I think her nair, bair, bullet arts and bullet climax are actually really good in neutral. In fact ive been having huge success with dash pivot ftilt bullet arts. Its pretty fantastic.

 

[KirbCider]

To be honest I think Bayonetta is more than decent. She can certainly be dangerous in the correct hands.

Bayonetta does seem like a character that takes time to get used to though, meaning you need to put at least a considerable amount of effort into her. She has quite a few cons you need to watch out for, but at the same time she also has some pretty big pros as well (Witch Time being one of them). I've been playing as her non-stop since she has came out and have been learning more about her as I play.

Once I became aware of those cons my use of her has gotten a lot better that's for sure.

I actually think I may have found another new Main in fact....

 

[BlackCephie]

To be honest I think Bayonetta is more than decent. She can certainly be dangerous in the correct hands.

Bayonetta does seem like a character that takes time to get used to though, meaning you need to put at least a considerable amount of effort into her. She has quite a few cons you need to watch out for, but at the same time she also has some pretty big pros as well (Witch Time being one of them). I've been playing as her non-stop since she has came out and have been learning more about her as I play.

Once I became aware of those cons my use of her has gotten a lot better that's for sure.

I actually think I may have found another new Main in fact....

She certainly has cons, but honestly they dont seem enumerous. Her frame data of her grounded normals are not stellar, but they are fast enough to punish with, plus they can convert into big damage and ko's. Here smash attacks are slow and punishable, but powerful and should be reserved for witch time and great reads. All of her aerials are good and, when used correctly her bullet arts can provide a strategic advantage in neutral. Also bullet climax has amazing potential for defense. So far I havnt seen a single projectile that beats it.

All in all she is a defensive character that can instantly switch into an offensive powerhouse with any move in her arsenal.

 

[Mjolnir/Hunter101]

im mostly just having a lot of trouble with her recovery. usually im managing ok in a online match until i get knocked off fairly far down or very close to the edge of the screen. Then i jump and then up b, then i try to jump again and it doesn't work. im not sure if im being too slow or something.
my one gripe with her is how elaborate her recovery seems to be. I think it's good that her offensive tools are a challenge to grasp against opponents. i just wish the recovery wasn't one of those elaborate things. my normal mains can usually recover well with just a jump and an up b, or side b. (ike and zard)

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

im mostly just having a lot of trouble with her recovery. usually im managing ok in a online match until i get knocked off fairly far down or very close to the edge of the screen. Then i jump and then up b, then i try to jump again and it doesn't work. im not sure if im being too slow or something.
my one gripe with her is how elaborate her recovery seems to be. I think it's good that her offensive tools are a challenge to grasp against opponents. i just wish the recovery wasn't one of those elaborate things. my normal mains can usually recover well with just a jump and an up b, or side b. (ike and zard)

It's uSpecial jump uSpecial, not jump uSpecial jump

 

[The Puffer]

I don't think she is bad at ALL, it has been like just 5 days since her release and Saj already won a tournament with her.

im mostly just having a lot of trouble with her recovery. usually im managing ok in a online match until i get knocked off fairly far down or very close to the edge of the screen. Then i jump and then up b, then i try to jump again and it doesn't work. im not sure if im being too slow or something.
my one gripe with her is how elaborate her recovery seems to be. I think it's good that her offensive tools are a challenge to grasp against opponents. i just wish the recovery wasn't one of those elaborate things. my normal mains can usually recover well with just a jump and an up b, or side b. (ike and zard)

You also want to do use of the with twist bug to gain 1-2 more jumps, clinging walls is also very helpful if possible.

 

[BlackCephie]

im mostly just having a lot of trouble with her recovery. usually im managing ok in a online match until i get knocked off fairly far down or very close to the edge of the screen. Then i jump and then up b, then i try to jump again and it doesn't work. im not sure if im being too slow or something.
my one gripe with her is how elaborate her recovery seems to be. I think it's good that her offensive tools are a challenge to grasp against opponents. i just wish the recovery wasn't one of those elaborate things. my normal mains can usually recover well with just a jump and an up b, or side b. (ike and zard)

Wrong order. Up b comes first, then your second jump. I think its also worth noting that ABK and upb can be used for serious mindgames on stages, especially in terms of mobility and feinting landings. Makes it nearly impossible to punish her landings.

 

[SleuthMechanism]

I have to agree that she feels rather underwhelming. Her low ground speed and subpar neutral game make approaching rather difficult and her projectile is rather subpar at forcing approaches from my experience.

 

[Ghidorah14]

I have to agree that she feels rather underwhelming. Her low ground speed and subpar neutral game make approaching rather difficult and her projectile is rather subpar at forcing approaches from my experience.

She really isnt supposed to approach, anyway. Use the bullet arts (holding A) to force approaches.

Bullet Climax is better for taller characters and ledge guarding people who recover mid-to-high.

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

She really isnt supposed to approach, anyway. Use the bullet arts (holding A) to force approaches.

Bullet Climax is better for taller characters and ledge guarding people who recover mid-to-high.

This. Shoot everywhere, make them approach, punish bad approaches with facekick, dTilt and OOS uSpecial.
If we ever need to apply shield pressure we can do so though with bAir and facekick.
And yes I will call dABK facekick from now on, because that's what it is. A kick to the face.

 

[Ghidorah14]

This. Shoot everywhere, make them approach, punish bad approaches with facekick, dTilt and OOS uSpecial.
If we ever need to apply shield pressure we can do so though with bAir and facekick.
And yes I will call dABK facekick from now on, because that's what it is. A kick to the face.

Why not a boot to the head, instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfMcxmOBmpk

 

[Tobi_Whatever]

Why not a boot to the head, instead?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tfMcxmOBmpk

because facekick sounds nice and is short to both read and write