SH FAir out of shield

[Flayl]

I wanted to develop Bowser's shield game toward well spaced long range moves and against aerials followed by a double jump. The times when fortress won't hurt your opponents.

Turns out Bowser's jumping animation SUCKS, more than I even imagined.

It takes Bowser 17 frames to SH Rising FAir OoS. This means, from inside your shield, 17 frames for the hitbox to come out.

I didn't bother to count the frames for FJ Rising NAir, but it should be close, either you're locked in the full jump animation before you can NAir or you aren't, so I estimate between 17 to 20 frames, I'll test later when I'm done with SH Rising FAir.

To give you an idea, Jab after shield drop takes 13 frames (7 for shield drop, 6 for jab).

The plus side is that the FAir can hit targets further away than Bowser's jab, but will not hit people at FTilt range. Also since it's a Rising FAir, there is no aerial lag so you can follow up with any ground move.

For now the following list is made of attacks that have a -17 frame advantage against shields, I will later on edit out those that can't outrange Bowser's jab.

SH FAir OoS against the following if they're outside of Jab range and inside of FTilt range:
Bowser

• 2nd Jab
  Dash Attack
  DTilt
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  NAir
  DAir
  FAir
  BAir
  UAir
  UpB
  DownB

Donkey Kong

• 
  2nd Jab
  Dash Attack
  FTilt
  Utilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  BAir
  UAir
  DAir
  FAir
  NAir
  B
  OverB
  UpB

Falco

• FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  FAir
  UpB
  DownB

Game & Watch

• Dash Attack
  DTilt
  FTilt
  FSmash
  B

Ganondorf

• Jab
  Dash Attack
  DTilt
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  B
  DownB

Jigglypuff

• 
  Dash Attack
  DTilt
  FTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  B
  DownB
  OverB

Lucas

• 3rd Jab
  Dash Attack
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  DAir
  OverB
  UpB
  DownB

Luigi

• 3rd Jab
  DTilt
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  USmash
  FAir
  B
  UpB
  DownB
  OverB

Mario

• 3rd Jab
  Dash Attack
  DTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  DAir
  FAir
  B
  UpB
  OverB

Marth

• 1st and 2nd Jab
  Dash Attack
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  DAir
  B
  DownB
  UpB

Meta Knight

• B (Ending)
  DownB
  OverB

Ness

• 3rd Jab
  Dash Attack
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DAir
  FAir
  UAir
  BAir
  FAir???
  UpB

Peach

• 2nd Jab
  Dash Attack
  UTilt
  FTilt
  USmash
  FSmash
  DSmash
  UpB
  OverB

Toon Link

• 3rd Jab
  Dash Attack
  FTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash

Wario

• 2nd Jab
  Dash Attack
  DTilt
  FTilt
  UTilt
  DSmash
  FSmash
  USmash
  DAir
  BAir
  OverB
  UpB
  DownB

Currently editing

 

[Flayl]

From best to worst option OoS:

Grab -> Fortress -> Jab -> UTilt -> FAir-> FTilt -> Jump away

Go further to the right until you get the range you need.

You can bait a klaw when jumping away, for example.

 

[B!squick]

Nice. Didn't know SH FAir OoS might be actually good. :3 Then again though, I'm bad with Bowser, lol.

 

[salaboB]

Turns out Bowser's jumping animation SUCKS, more than I even imagined.

I believe that the jump animation is a large part of why people think Bowser is slow.

 

[MrEh]

He has a 9 frame jump. That usually means most jumping options are terrible.

 

[Flayl]

Funny how it's in the frame data thread and I didn't even bother to look it up. 9 frames is TERRIBLE.

What does Sakurai have against Bowser seriously.

 

[MrEh]

Well, Bowser is fat after all. Bowser's Fair OoS comes out in 17 frames.

Squirtles Nair OoS comes out in 9 frames.


Bowser fails.

 

[B!squick]

Well, Bowser is fat after all. Bowser's Fair OoS comes out in 17 frames.

Squirtles Nair OoS comes out in 9 frames.


Bowser fails.

What's up with that? Squirtle's more of a turtle than Bowser. :/

 

[MrEh]

Squirtle is just faster. His jump comes out nearly twice as fast as ours, and the same goes for his aerials.


In any case, there's no reason to jump OoS unless your opponent is wide open. Remember that in order for Bowser to even jump from the ground, it takes 9 frames. While a Fortress takes only 6. (provided you jump cancel it)

 

[Flayl]

The main uses for this will be against attacks like Marth's FSmash or Ike's spaced FAir, which fortress is bad against.

Unfortunately this is too slow to punish G&W's BAir.

Once I've finished the list this will seem a lot more useful.

 

[B!squick]

Unfortunately this is too slow to punish G&W's BAir.

Isn't everything though? It shield pokes like nobodies business. x_x

 

[MrEh]

There is no reason to try and shield Ike's Fair. You have fire, use it.

As for Marth, don't bother. Just Fsmash instead.

 

[Flayl]

This is depressing, grounded Meta Knight is too short to punish with a Rising FAir. Feel free to punish the last FTilt with a walking FTilt of your own (MK's FTilt pushes you barely out of distance but you have the frame advantage to punish him anyway).

With that I can say MK is done, not that it was any help. UTilt against DAirs and FTilt against FTilts.

 

[Riddle]

Wow Bowser's jump is THAT terrible. Hmmm, how much can you punish if you powershield? I imagine quite a bit more. Well keep working on this, it could be quite useful.

That being said, AARGH more stuff to memorize, as if the grab release thread wasn't enough.

 

[Flayl]

You should develop a feel for it. If something long range and laggy hits your shield, estimate if you can Jab back. If not, either don't try to punish or or do this.

 

[Cassius.]

Hmmm...this was updated quite a bit since I last saw it. Yay :>

And I might be delusional, but weren't also working on Full Jump NAir or something like that...what happened? Lol if you actually weren't, and I'm going crazy, lemme know

 

[MrEh]

Fair OoS works against a MK who shuttle loops you when you're on a ledge.

 

[Flayl]

Hmmm...this was updated quite a bit since I last saw it. Yay :>

And I might be delusional, but weren't also working on Full Jump NAir or something like that...what happened? Lol if you actually weren't, and I'm going crazy, lemme know

Since UTilt's hitbox is pretty big, you're much better off UTilting after letting shield drop than doing a full jump and NAir'ing, specially because it takes less frames (15 rather than 17 or 18)

But for now the only character that is finished is Meta Knight, I'm trying to figure out how to determine which of Snake's attacks have enough lag to test this against. Snakes don't have frame advantage in their frame data thread.

 

[Flayl]

Characters that are below Mario's standing height cannot be Rising FAired (reliably). That includes characters in crouching animations, of course. FAir (standing) Mario all you want though.