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Secondaries

LumpyGravy

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Sorry in advance if this topic belongs in the matchup thread or somewhere else.

I know that since the state of the metagame's development is still at a rudimentary level there's a lot we don't know and are in the process of learning about our character's matchups and matchups in general, but I was wondering if it wasn't too soon to begin discussing secondaries or "counterpick characters" i.e. characters we might use as opposed to Greninja for Greninja's unfavorable or disadvantageous matchups.

For the record, at least for right now, I don't think Greninja has any unwinnable matchups. So secondaries in a sense aren't particularly necessary, but some might prefer to use them in lieu of fighting uphill battles.

Do you think it is possible to achieve complete coverage of his disadvantageous matchups with 1-3 secondaries?
 

David Galanos

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Yeah doesn't really have a matchup that is all that bad for him. Even if he did I don't know anyone I would want to secondary. Captain Falcon? Fox? Kirby maybe, Mewtwo? Idk. My greninja is way better than I am with any of those characters so it just seems pointless
 

TTYK

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I use sheik, she is such a fantastic backup, and she fits with my playstyle, too.
 

Kite0692

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IMO Greninja loses to: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4sheik::4shulk::4tlink::4yoshi:

Either ties or beat everyone else.

The only one who goes toe to toe with everyone is :4sheik:. Obviously, she's the best in the game lol, so she's the best secundary.
 

Talazala

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I don't think he has any match up that is unplayable, I just don't like the idea of getting downloaded and then countered.

I've been thinking of playing Lucario as another main because he seems to have a really different rhythm from Greninja.
 

Funkermonster

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IMO Greninja loses to: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4sheik::4shulk::4tlink::4yoshi:

Either ties or beat everyone else.

The only one who goes toe to toe with everyone is :4sheik:. Obviously, she's the best in the game lol, so she's the best secundary.
I agree with the others, but I disagree that :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4luigi::4tlink::4megaman: beat him, and I ain't too sure about :4shulk: and :4mario:. I don't think Bowser Jr is that hard of a fight for him at all, and the others are closer to even IMO.

And while debatable, it can still be argued that :4diddy:is better than Sheik. While his offstage game is inferior, Diddy has a way easier time killing than Sheik does.
 

speedguy20

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I agree with the others, but I disagree that :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4luigi::4tlink::4megaman: beat him, and I ain't too sure about :4shulk: and :4mario:. I don't think Bowser Jr is that hard of a fight for him at all, and the others are closer to even IMO.

And while debatable, it can still be argued that :4diddy:is better than Sheik. While his offstage game is inferior, Diddy has a way easier time killing than Sheik does.
:4shulk: is a hard counter for Greninja due to Nair and Fair, killing :4greninja: air combos.
 

Kite0692

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I agree with the others, but I disagree that :4bowserjr::4duckhunt::4luigi::4tlink::4megaman: beat him, and I ain't too sure about :4shulk: and :4mario:. I don't think Bowser Jr is that hard of a fight for him at all, and the others are closer to even IMO.

And while debatable, it can still be argued that :4diddy:is better than Sheik. While his offstage game is inferior, Diddy has a way easier time killing than Sheik does.
Hard campers in general are a pain the butt.

For Bowser Jr, you can go and read the matchup discussion about him.
As for the others: the only one I think is a 6-4 is Toon link, since he can camp the hell out of Greninja, and has a nice speed. Plus, he can kill way easier (For example: his Bthrow kills ridiculously early). Doggy, Luigi, Mario and Megaman I think they are 55-45 (close to even). Luigi and Mario, they both have nasty combos on greninja, kill pretty early too, and nice setups out of a throw. They may be close to even, but at the end of the day they beat greninja even by a slight advantage. Don't get me wrong, they are all winnable matchups, I just think that at high level play you gotta be really really careful with those guys.

I think Shulk beats greninja too, due to his attacks not letting get Greninja in, shuriken not been great at the matchup, better killpower than greninja, plus, his counter is freakin' dumb. Im pretty sure Greninja loses this one too, but I'm not sure how badly since Greninja can gimp his recovery really easy, but other than that, is a really hard matchup IMO.
 

LumpyGravy

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IMO Greninja loses to: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4sheik::4shulk::4tlink::4yoshi:

Either ties or beat everyone else.

The only one who goes toe to toe with everyone is :4sheik:. Obviously, she's the best in the game lol, so she's the best secundary.
I think we destroy Shulk. He's one of the easiest characters to juggle because his aerials come out so slowly. In neutral, stand back and harass him with shurikens. If he hits your shield with an approching fair or nair, jab (our standing grab is very slow making shield grab a bad option usually, but Shulk is one characer I feel like we can confidently shield grab). If he hits your shield with a spaced nair, chase him down with a dash grab. That's all there is to the matchup.

I feel like we beat Bowser Jr., Megaman, and TL, and Diddy, Duck Hunt, Luigi, and Yoshi are probaly even. The rest I agree with.

I think we lose to Sonic the worst, but Sheik, Falcon, Fox, and ZSS shut us down due to our lack of defensive options. Villager and Olimar negate our ability to play patiently as their projectile game is superior to ours so they force us on the offensive in order to penetrate their defenses. Mario can also be problematic for this reason though not as badly.
 

LumpyGravy

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:4shulk: is a hard counter for Greninja due to Nair and Fair, killing :4greninja: air combos.
I highly doubt Greninja has any hard counters (i.e. 65/35-70/30 or worse). There are no matchups in which Greninja doesn't have the tools to win under reasonable conditions. I don't think there are many hard counters in this game.
 
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TTYK

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IMO Greninja loses to: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4sheik::4shulk::4tlink::4yoshi:

Either ties or beat everyone else.

The only one who goes toe to toe with everyone is :4sheik:. Obviously, she's the best in the game lol, so she's the best secundary.
I would cut everyone off that list except duckhunt and sheik.
 

Funkermonster

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Hard campers in general are a pain the butt.

For Bowser Jr, you can go and read the matchup discussion about him.
As for the others: the only one I think is a 6-4 is Toon link, since he can camp the hell out of Greninja, and has a nice speed. Plus, he can kill way easier (For example: his Bthrow kills ridiculously early). Doggy, Luigi, Mario and Megaman I think they are 55-45 (close to even). Luigi and Mario, they both have nasty combos on greninja, kill pretty early too, and nice setups out of a throw. They may be close to even, but at the end of the day they beat greninja even by a slight advantage. Don't get me wrong, they are all winnable matchups, I just think that at high level play you gotta be really really careful with those guys.

I think Shulk beats greninja too, due to his attacks not letting get Greninja in, shuriken not been great at the matchup, better killpower than greninja, plus, his counter is freakin' dumb. Im pretty sure Greninja loses this one too, but I'm not sure how badly since Greninja can gimp his recovery really easy, but other than that, is a really hard matchup IMO.
Completely disagree.

:4bowserjr:

For Bowser Jr, you can go and read the matchup discussion about him.

Go and read his matchup discussion? Why bother? I already took part in it and made a huuuge post about his general gameplay flaws and how to beat him, and quite a few people there seemed to agree with me:
  • His grab game is very underwhelming, due to having a slowass grab (not Pac-Man or Villager slow, but still slow) with mediocre range, combined with having a rather poor set of throws.
  • His approach options are limited (without even having a reliable way to force approaches)
  • His Out of Shield options are limited
  • Even his killing options are limited
Really, Bowser Jr is not that hard of a fight once you get used to him and exploit his flaws. If anything, I'd argue that Greninja's the one who wins this, even if only by a little. His approach options are terrible, he has a very bad grab & set of throws, he has a lot of trouble killing, and a lot of things are safe on shield against him that wouldn't be against most other characters. On a side note, he's also a heavywight character and susceptible to getting comboed unless he has one of his SideB custom moves available, so that's kinda harmful to him too. Shorthopping with Fairs and Nairs work nicely against him and he has a hard time punishing it due to his slow grab, and camping with Shurikens will make life hard for him trying to get in (especially if you use his own mechakoopas against him).

As for the Mario Bros, I can't say I agree with that analysis either.
Luigi and Mario, they both have nasty combos on greninja, kill pretty early too, and nice setups out of a throw. They may be close to even, but at the end of the day they beat greninja even by a slight advantage.

:4mario:

  • I'm sorry, but you think Mario can kill early? Luigi I can understand, but Mario? Mario's killing moveset is NOT good, Mario actually has a lot of trouble killing in general, having few reliable finishers that are all smash attacks. Usmash is fairly quick, but does not kill very early at all. Dsmash is terrible, it's fast but its also pretty weak, has low range and is not safe on block at all. Fsmash is fairly strong compared to his other 2 smashes, but it comes at the price of being really slow, and it should only ever land out of a hard read or a punish. His Fair spike is telegraphed and not that hard to air dodge. Nair and Bair can gimp some characters (which doesn't even include half the cast), but considering how Greninja has a good recovery and decent weight, he should not be one of those victims.
  • For a combo character, Mario's combos don't really help him as much as they should, since they deal surprisingly low damage (which to me insults his already poor KOing ability, like what in the world is that?). Furthermore, his Utilt combos aren't guaranteed, and sometimes you can actually jump out of or interrupt his combos. Dthrow into UpB is guaranteed for him, but even then it only does a petty 17% damage. His combo game isn't nearly as devastating as Luigi's.
  • And while Mario struggles to get kills, he's not that hard to kill himself, even with Greninja. Mario's recovery goes a very short distance and he does not have a great way to extend it, knock him out of his double jump and he's not very likely to make a comeback. Its been bad ever since Melee happened, and its not hard to gimp him with Greninja's Bair at around at least 60%.
  • Mario has terrible range in nearly attack he has.
  • I'll admit, Mario has a respectable Air Game that's not to be trifled with, especially his near lagless Dair thats a freakin' amazing move His ground game however, is..... kind of weak. His most reliable ground moves are basically his Jab and his Grab, all his others are fairly mediocre in the neutral game.
:4luigi:
  • His recovery, though not bad like Mario's, its not really good either. Greninja can still gimp him just fine.
  • Luigi's approach options are ass. In exchange for being more powerful than Mario, he's got a lot less mobility (especially while airborne) and struggles to get in. You can actually camp him out by charging up shurikens and abusing its transcendent priority to eat his fireballs.
  • Just like Mario, Luigi's range is laughable, and it hurts his already bad mobility. Good spacing with Fair and Bair can give him a rough time too.
  • Luigi has very low traction (lowest in the game, in fact) and gets pushed back kinda far when shielding. Makes it harder for him to punish OoS than it'd be for other characters. Once again, good SHFF Fairs can work well on him, just like they do to Bowser Jr.

:4tlink: can't camp Greninja forever, and camping isn't even that problematic unless you're playing on Final Destination. Once Greninja does get in, he can beat Toon Link in CQC just fine. SHFF Nairs and Fairs can punish the endlag of his projectiles, and he suffers from the same problem Bowser Jr has: A slow Grab and generally poor Out of Shield Options. His projectile game is better than Regular Link's, but in exchange his Killing Options are worse.

No offense man and I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but I think you're just being outplayed.
 

TTYK

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Completely disagree.

:4bowserjr:

For Bowser Jr, you can go and read the matchup discussion about him.

Go and read his matchup discussion? Why bother? I already took part in it and made a huuuge post about his general gameplay flaws and how to beat him, and quite a few people there seemed to agree with me:
  • His grab game is very underwhelming, due to having a slowass grab (not Pac-Man or Villager slow, but still slow) with mediocre range, combined with having a rather poor set of throws.
  • His approach options are limited (without even having a reliable way to force approaches)
  • His Out of Shield options are limited
  • Even his killing options are limited
Really, Bowser Jr is not that hard of a fight once you get used to him and exploit his flaws. If anything, I'd argue that Greninja's the one who wins this, even if only by a little. His approach options are terrible, he has a very bad grab & set of throws, he has a lot of trouble killing, and a lot of things are safe on shield against him that wouldn't be against most other characters. On a side note, he's also a heavywight character and susceptible to getting comboed unless he has one of his SideB custom moves available, so that's kinda harmful to him too. Shorthopping with Fairs and Nairs work nicely against him and he has a hard time punishing it due to his slow grab, and camping with Shurikens will make life hard for him trying to get in (especially if you use his own mechakoopas against him).

As for the Mario Bros, I can't say I agree with that analysis either.
Luigi and Mario, they both have nasty combos on greninja, kill pretty early too, and nice setups out of a throw. They may be close to even, but at the end of the day they beat greninja even by a slight advantage.

:4mario:

  • I'm sorry, but you think Mario can kill early? Luigi I can understand, but Mario? Mario's killing moveset is NOT good, Mario actually has a lot of trouble killing in general, having few reliable finishers that are all smash attacks. Usmash is fairly quick, but does not kill very early at all. Dsmash is terrible, it's fast but its also pretty weak, has low range and is not safe on block at all. Fsmash is fairly strong compared to his other 2 smashes, but it comes at the price of being really slow, and it should only ever land out of a hard read or a punish. His Fair spike is telegraphed and not that hard to air dodge. Nair and Bair can gimp some characters (which doesn't even include half the cast), but considering how Greninja has a good recovery and decent weight, he should not be one of those victims.
  • For a combo character, Mario's combos don't really help him as much as they should, since they deal surprisingly low damage (which to me insults his already poor KOing ability, like what in the world is that?). Furthermore, his Utilt combos aren't guaranteed, and sometimes you can actually jump out of or interrupt his combos. Dthrow into UpB is guaranteed for him, but even then it only does a petty 17% damage. His combo game isn't nearly as devastating as Luigi's.
  • And while Mario struggles to get kills, he's not that hard to kill himself, even with Greninja. Mario's recovery goes a very short distance and he does not have a great way to extend it, knock him out of his double jump and he's not very likely to make a comeback. Its been bad ever since Melee happened, and its not hard to gimp him with Greninja's Bair at around at least 60%.
  • Mario has terrible range in nearly attack he has.
  • I'll admit, Mario has a respectable Air Game that's not to be trifled with, especially his near lagless Dair thats a freakin' amazing move His ground game however, is..... kind of weak. His most reliable ground moves are basically his Jab and his Grab, all his others are fairly mediocre in the neutral game.
:4luigi:
  • His recovery, though not bad like Mario's, its not really good either. Greninja can still gimp him just fine.
  • Luigi's approach options are ***. In exchange for being more powerful than Mario, he's got a lot less mobility (especially while airborne) and struggles to get in. You can actually camp him out by charging up shurikens and abusing its transcendent priority to eat his fireballs.
  • Just like Mario, Luigi's range is laughable, and it hurts his already bad mobility. Good spacing with Fair and Bair can give him a rough time too.
  • Luigi has very low traction (lowest in the game, in fact) and gets pushed back kinda far when shielding. Makes it harder for him to punish OoS than it'd be for other characters. Once again, good SHFF Fairs can work well on him, just like they do to Bowser Jr.

:4tlink: can't camp Greninja forever, and camping isn't even that problematic unless you're playing on Final Destination. Once Greninja does get in, he can beat Toon Link in CQC just fine. SHFF Nairs and Fairs can punish the endlag of his projectiles, and he suffers from the same problem Bowser Jr has: A slow Grab and generally poor Out of Shield Options. His projectile game is better than Regular Link's, but in exchange his Killing Options are worse.

No offense man and I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but I think you're just being outplayed.
I agree. The characters he put up just seem like annoying For Glory characters. Either that or he really underestimates Greninja as a character.
 
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FullMoon

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IMO Greninja loses to: :4bowserjr::4falcon::4diddy::4duckhunt::4fox::4luigi::4mario::4megaman::4sheik::4shulk::4tlink::4yoshi:

Either ties or beat everyone else.

The only one who goes toe to toe with everyone is :4sheik:. Obviously, she's the best in the game lol, so she's the best secundary.
The only characters that Greninja loses to are Sheik, Fox and Sonic I'd say.

I think you should just learn how to deal with projectile spamming. Luigi and Toon Link players themselves say Greninja has an advantage in the MU. Yoshi and Shulk can't be anything other than even and I feel Greninja might go 55:45 against Diddy, maybe.

Really, Greninja has probably only 4 MUs where he loses (not too sure on Meta Knight) and even then I can't see it being harder than 60:40, unfortunately most of those MUs he loses are against popular characters in the meta so yeah that's pretty bad.

So, find a good secondary for dealing with Sheik, Fox, Sonic and maybe Meta Knight and you're done. At least, that's my opinion on it.
 

Shack

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I have been liking Shulk, he seems to have what Greninja lacks:
Spike
Longer ranger
Faster and more useful fair
Easier to kill with
Nair has a long lasting hit box and pretty easy to use effectively

I have trouble against people with longer range, it's very hard to get in on them since they can space their pokes easier, Shulk helps me out with that.
 
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Kite0692

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Well then it seems I might have some trouble with project spammers chars.


Completely disagree.

:4bowserjr:

For Bowser Jr, you can go and read the matchup discussion about him.

Go and read his matchup discussion? Why bother? I already took part in it and made a huuuge post about his general gameplay flaws and how to beat him, and quite a few people there seemed to agree with me:
  • His grab game is very underwhelming, due to having a slowass grab (not Pac-Man or Villager slow, but still slow) with mediocre range, combined with having a rather poor set of throws.
  • His approach options are limited (without even having a reliable way to force approaches)
  • His Out of Shield options are limited
  • Even his killing options are limited
Really, Bowser Jr is not that hard of a fight once you get used to him and exploit his flaws. If anything, I'd argue that Greninja's the one who wins this, even if only by a little. His approach options are terrible, he has a very bad grab & set of throws, he has a lot of trouble killing, and a lot of things are safe on shield against him that wouldn't be against most other characters. On a side note, he's also a heavywight character and susceptible to getting comboed unless he has one of his SideB custom moves available, so that's kinda harmful to him too. Shorthopping with Fairs and Nairs work nicely against him and he has a hard time punishing it due to his slow grab, and camping with Shurikens will make life hard for him trying to get in (especially if you use his own mechakoopas against him).

As for the Mario Bros, I can't say I agree with that analysis either.
Luigi and Mario, they both have nasty combos on greninja, kill pretty early too, and nice setups out of a throw. They may be close to even, but at the end of the day they beat greninja even by a slight advantage.

:4mario:

  • I'm sorry, but you think Mario can kill early? Luigi I can understand, but Mario? Mario's killing moveset is NOT good, Mario actually has a lot of trouble killing in general, having few reliable finishers that are all smash attacks. Usmash is fairly quick, but does not kill very early at all. Dsmash is terrible, it's fast but its also pretty weak, has low range and is not safe on block at all. Fsmash is fairly strong compared to his other 2 smashes, but it comes at the price of being really slow, and it should only ever land out of a hard read or a punish. His Fair spike is telegraphed and not that hard to air dodge. Nair and Bair can gimp some characters (which doesn't even include half the cast), but considering how Greninja has a good recovery and decent weight, he should not be one of those victims.
  • For a combo character, Mario's combos don't really help him as much as they should, since they deal surprisingly low damage (which to me insults his already poor KOing ability, like what in the world is that?). Furthermore, his Utilt combos aren't guaranteed, and sometimes you can actually jump out of or interrupt his combos. Dthrow into UpB is guaranteed for him, but even then it only does a petty 17% damage. His combo game isn't nearly as devastating as Luigi's.
  • And while Mario struggles to get kills, he's not that hard to kill himself, even with Greninja. Mario's recovery goes a very short distance and he does not have a great way to extend it, knock him out of his double jump and he's not very likely to make a comeback. Its been bad ever since Melee happened, and its not hard to gimp him with Greninja's Bair at around at least 60%.
  • Mario has terrible range in nearly attack he has.
  • I'll admit, Mario has a respectable Air Game that's not to be trifled with, especially his near lagless Dair thats a freakin' amazing move His ground game however, is..... kind of weak. His most reliable ground moves are basically his Jab and his Grab, all his others are fairly mediocre in the neutral game.
:4luigi:
  • His recovery, though not bad like Mario's, its not really good either. Greninja can still gimp him just fine.
  • Luigi's approach options are ***. In exchange for being more powerful than Mario, he's got a lot less mobility (especially while airborne) and struggles to get in. You can actually camp him out by charging up shurikens and abusing its transcendent priority to eat his fireballs.
  • Just like Mario, Luigi's range is laughable, and it hurts his already bad mobility. Good spacing with Fair and Bair can give him a rough time too.
  • Luigi has very low traction (lowest in the game, in fact) and gets pushed back kinda far when shielding. Makes it harder for him to punish OoS than it'd be for other characters. Once again, good SHFF Fairs can work well on him, just like they do to Bowser Jr.

:4tlink: can't camp Greninja forever, and camping isn't even that problematic unless you're playing on Final Destination. Once Greninja does get in, he can beat Toon Link in CQC just fine. SHFF Nairs and Fairs can punish the endlag of his projectiles, and he suffers from the same problem Bowser Jr has: A slow Grab and generally poor Out of Shield Options. His projectile game is better than Regular Link's, but in exchange his Killing Options are worse.

No offense man and I don't mean this as an insult or anything, but I think you're just being outplayed.

Dude no problem with whatever you say. It seems you have more experience in the matchup than I do.
I read what you said and I'll practice and learn better the matchup to then give my opinion again. After all you are not the first to say that, and I just need to do some adjustment here and there lol.

I agree. The characters he put up just seem like annoying For Glory characters. Either that or he really underestimates Greninja as a character.
Lol I have never played for glory. Maybe I underestimate him a little, but IMO he doesn't need a secundary.
 
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RedBeefBaron

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I was a day one Diddy main in Brawl, so i use him when i feel like my Greninja is out matched. Seriously, who does Diddy realistically lose to? Pac Man? Maybe Olimar? Easier said then done. There's a reason why so many people cover their mains with him.

Although honestly I'm not a fan of the new Diddy as much as the old one even though he's much better. He's brain dead in comparison now, in Brawl I used to get a lot of respect for playing Diddy because you couldn't get anywhere unless you were really skilled and creative with bananas. Now every time i win with him its just completely dismissed.

In smash 4 it seems like the people you really have to respect on a win are, well, the Greninja mains. Greninja is a character for adults, like Diddy used to be.
 
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FullMoon

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In smash 4 it seems like the people you really have to respect on a win are, well, the Greninja mains. Greninja is a character for adults, like Diddy used to be.
I think Peach mains deserve more respect than us because seriously, how do you even use that character?
 

RedBeefBaron

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I think Peach mains deserve more respect than us because seriously, how do you even use that character?
I think that's as true as it is for Greninja, they just don't have an aMSa single-handedly advancing their meta atm. A lot of people call him a low tier hero because of the way he wins with melee yoshi and greninja, but it's more like he's proving that those chars are actually quite viable if the player knows what's what. I would like to see a Peach make it far at a tourney like Apex though, Peach does deserve respect.

Edit: Her and Shulk. Shulk looks like an absolute ****show.
 
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Onyxsbayne

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I've been liking Fox and Mario a lot. I think Fox has a lot of similarities with Greninja, so maybe he's not the best choice, but those 2 have helped me out. Pit is another option I like, but I feel like he isn't as good as the other characters. Maybe I'm wrong, and he's great, I just like Pit is all.
 

ephOE

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Obvious picks are characters like Diddy, Sheik, secondaries that are both generally regarded as top tier and both arguably easier to play than Greninja. I think Greninja takes a lot of work, so a secondary that requires less effort might at least be good time management.

My second and third most used characters are Toon Link and Meta Knight respectively, but that's mostly because one of the best players I have played consistently used to beat me with them (before he gave up in favor of HOO HAH) so well that it made me want to try those characters.

I think because Greninja's matchups, for the most part, never are too far one way or the other, it might come down to personal experience and preference. An obviously unfavorable MU like Fox is one of the few where I would feel the need to pick a character that specifically has a great MU against Fox. ROB is probably the character I hate playing the most, and MK seems to be somewhat effective against him. Greninja is also so different from the rest of the cast that it's hard to justify choosing another character based on different playstyle, because that describes more or less the whole roster.

I've been liking Fox and Mario a lot. I think Fox has a lot of similarities with Greninja, so maybe he's not the best choice, but those 2 have helped me out. Pit is another option I like, but I feel like he isn't as good as the other characters. Maybe I'm wrong, and he's great, I just like Pit is all.
I think Fox is a good choice. He's easy to get started with and actually gives Greninja a run for his own money. Mario and Pit are also good choices in my opinion because they are very straightforward, balanced characters that don't particularly excel or lack in any one area.

I think that's as true as it is for Greninja, they just don't have an aMSa single-handedly advancing their meta atm.
Don't sleep on れあ (Lea) either. aMSa's twitch archive has a 3 and a half hour set of him and れあ practicing, I'd watch it if you haven't. aMSa also notes Konotouri as being among Japan's best Greninja players, if I remember correctly.
 

FullMoon

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As you guys can see I use the Pits as secondaries and while I never really feel like I need to switch to them in order to have better chances, I do like playing with them and they're considerably safer to use than Greninja is.
 

Ludiloco

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I don't really have a great one at the moment. I might need to get my Luigi back in the lab, he's super rusty but he's by far my most effective option to cover bad matchups for Ninja.

My D3 is really good but man he just struggles against so many good characters. Since people who win tournaments play good characters, it's a bit of a counter productive choice even if I feel D3 isn't a bad character at all. My Villager is super fraudulent, I need to take him out of my sig.
 

Funkermonster

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After playing around a little more, I've been playing Mega Man a whole lot more lately, and I'm having difficulty deciding on whether I want him or Sonic as my sidekick. Both characters are really enjoyable for me to play, and I'm being real indecisive on who I like better.

:4sonic: has been my second since the game was out on 3DS in October and is one of my favorite gaming heroes. I started out incredibly bad and reckless with him, but I've gotten noticeably better with him now and have become a somewhat well respected player in my region with him and Greninja in just a few months, starting to make my mark in December. What I like about Sonic is his bait and punish playstyle and the many options he has out of his spin dashes and spin charges. When I use it, I get to mess with my opponents heads and force them to do something stupid and then I can go in and punish them brutally, and Sonic's just a very unpredictable character and annoying for most to fight because of it. Sonic's damage output is easily among the best in the game with spectacular spindash combos, and he has a much easier time killing opponents than Greninja and Mega Man do. Sonic himself is also a somewhat bad matchup for Greninja too, so that says something. My problem with Sonic though, are that his approach options are sooooooooo bad, and he has no real safe way of getting in without being punished (no projectile, no aerial safe on shield, not too many answers to projectiles). Sonic suffers from the same weakness as Meta Knight: they are both over-reliant on fake approaches and can only really go in once the opponent makes a mistake, their options for real approaches are incredibly poor and are only really doable in mixups. Greninja can approach with Forward Air, Back Air, and Shurikens and he's at least safe if he spaces them, and Sonic doesn't really get any of those luxuries and is too dependent on his spindash mixups and being unpredictable.Even though he has a lot options from his spin dash and spin charge, pretty much all of them can easily be stuffed or punished if your opponent knows what you are about to do; and you constantly have to change the way you're going to approach to even get a few hits in. Sonic and Greninja also have terrible landing options from the air, and their defenses against people directly below them are all very unreliable, and someone like Fox can practically destroy both of them the moment they go airborne. Sonic's speed, combo game, and versatility all make Sonic a really fun character for me to play, and killing with spring to Uairs feels more rewarding than anything Mega Man can do. But when you're a character who's only form of approach is basically pretending to approach, playing Sonic can also be just as frustrating as its fun, sometimes even draining. A lot of people hate Sonic and like to complain about him, but he's not nearly as easy to use as he seems.

He was my 2nd favorite characer in the 3DS demo behind Pikachu (who I no longer enjoy much at all)I only started playing :4megaman: in November, and I have only recently got into his games like last summer a little after his announcement in Smash. I did however, know who he was and have played some online fan games of him and played him in Marvel vs Capcom, and I always thought of him as a little cool character even though I haven't played his games. What makes Mega Man so amazing is that he is viable in multiple playstyles: You can play him as a a zoning, campy character, or an aggressive semi-rushdown character. Sonic and Greninja don't really get this luxury: neither character is really the best at approaching and they can't really zone opponents because Greninja's projectile has some endlag on it and is punishable with poor out of shield options, and Sonic has literally no projectile at all (or at least not a good projectile); you can't really be too offensive or too defensive with either character. With proper spacing of his lemons/mega buster its very hard to get in on Mega Man as long as he keeps moving while shooting and shooting, and he can use the buster to approach himself if he chooses to and interrupt smash attacks while the opponent is still animating before their hitboxes even come out. His Metal Blades are a stupdendous projectile that are multi-purposely useful: its useful for edgeguarding, comboing, spacing, can be z-dropped, and can lead into a grab. Lea Shield is one of my favorite moves in the game: It not only gives you a high priority projectile; but also an active hitbox while shielding, jumping, spotdodging, grabbing; and is useful for its infamous footstool gimps. His recovery isn't as strong as Sonic's or Greninja's, but is still above average and can be mixed up with ways to protect himself. Rush can even save him from being meteor smashed! Mega Man's aerials are no joke either: Uair is a projectile that can push opponents upward and pressure those above you, Fair is a great anti air, Bair is a fine approach option and a very good kill move, and Dair isn't great but is a projectile meteor smash and the only one in the game. Mega's combo game is pretty limited though, and he barely has any combos outside of metal blade strings and Dthrow followups. Other than that, there is pretty much no such thing as combos with Mega Man and isn't nearly as good it as Sonic or Greninja, although his one string: Metal Blades into Utilt/Mega Upper is pretty sacred and devastating. Being a fast faller and a semi-heavyweight, Mega Man is fairly susceptible to being combo'd and juggled himself, and he doesn't have any great 'get off me' moves or combo breakers. Mega Man also has a lot of trouble killing, his best finishers are all pretty situational and very unsafe to use in the neutral with few guaranteed kill setups, and given how much of his moveset consists of projectiles (even some of his normals are projectiles!), reflectors are quite an annoyance for him to put up with.

Both of them have pretty high learning curves (despite Sonic's controversy and unpopularity) and are really complicated to play too, and I'd make an argument that Greninja is fairly technical too since after 1.04. When I play Greninja; I find that his main weaknesses are mediocre approaches, slow grab, issues with KOing, and most importantly his terrible out of shield options. Not sure who I'd define his worst matchups are and I don't think I'm adequate enough yet to judge, but in my experience I personally tend to have the most trouble against the following characters in my scene (mosty speedy characters who have less commitment than he does)::4wario: :4ness::4sheik::4diddy::4fox::4zss::4pikachu::4lucario::4villager::rosalina::4sonic:. Rosalina is a pain to deal with as Sonic; and Ness, Sheik, and Fox are fairly annoying too but I find the rest of them to be doable, and I even think he has a somehwat favorable matchup against Diddy. Ness, Sheik, Rosa, and Fox are no fun to fight as Mega, but the others are not so bad. I always have trouble fighting Wario no matter who I play, but I just have trouble dealing with him in general.

I wonder if Rosalina would work great with Greninja.... I've been liking her a bit more lately.
 

Poppy JR.

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Personally, I feel that C. Falcon makes for an excellent change of pace as far as playstyles are concerned. Playing Falcon as a quick, vicious, rushdown kinda character really throws off people who are used to playing my reserved, careful Greninja.

In my opinion, I don't think that there is really any matchup that is completely unwinnable for Greninja. Some characters are harder than others, of course, but oftentimes there are some vulnerabilities that you can exploit, especially mindgames. After all, mindgames work pretty much universally.
 

E.D.N.D.N

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Been thinking about who to use as my secondary a lot and I’ve landed on pikachu. Greninja has a lot of trouble with sheik and pikachu (sonic and fox to a lesser extent). Pikachu is even or at a very slight disadvantage vs. sheik and even with pikachu. Pikachu beats fox and sonic. Pikachu has a bad matchup against luigi, and greninja has a really good matchup vs. Luigi. Also learning how to use quick attack efficiently is easier if you are used to controlling Greninja’s up B as they move in a similar way.

Would love to hear what you guys think.
 

biribiri

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Been thinking about who to use as my secondary a lot and I’ve landed on pikachu. Greninja has a lot of trouble with sheik and pikachu (sonic and fox to a lesser extent). Pikachu is even or at a very slight disadvantage vs. sheik and even with pikachu. Pikachu beats fox and sonic. Pikachu has a bad matchup against luigi, and greninja has a really good matchup vs. Luigi. Also learning how to use quick attack efficiently is easier if you are used to controlling Greninja’s up B as they move in a similar way.

Would love to hear what you guys think.
Only problem I see with is that Pikachu generally can handle most matchups better than Greninja besides Luigi, which at that point Greninja would become a secondary as both characters are fairly hard to learn. If you're committed to using both though, they have a fantastic matchup coverage and either can be a good mixup to switch to during sets. I have a pocket Luigi that can covers my matchups except for Sheik.
 

Guimartgon

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I secondary Mario, I love how well he can punish unsafe things on shield. If I see myself punishing with OOS jab a lot, I'll switch to Mario so I can punish with downthrow strings. I also love how well Mario's Perfect Pivot Usmash works. I do miss having a fast reliable aerial frontal approach though(Greninja's Fair has too much start up and Mario's Nair has very little range).

I have somewhat of a Luigi as well, mainly for the Pikachu MU because I really dislike Greninja vs pikachu
 
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E.D.N.D.N

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I Feel like the plumbers are a solid choice for secondaries. I do agree with biribiri in terms of pikachu being a tough secondary but I think it'll be worthwhile if I put in the effort. I might just wait for the meta to develop a little bit more before I start putting effort into another character. Other than sheik I don't really feel like Greninja NEEDS a secondary but as sheik is so common it's still a pretty big issue.
 

cheesecakesquared

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I was actually considering using luigi as a secondary in particular for the pikachu mu. IMO, luigi is greninja's opposite in this game. Slow, amazing frame data, loves to shield, completely opposite of ninja's terrible oos options, amazing mobility and mediocre frame data. Plus, he is fairly easy to learn in comparison and also has a more established meta backing him up.

I'm not concerned about the sheik mu. If the balancing team watched Umebura FAT, I'm sure she is going to get nerfed even more. Even if she doesn't, no character really beats sheik atm so it is just a matter of learning to outplay the char. Pikachu on the other hand is unlikely to get nerfed since nobody uses him in Japan.
 

biribiri

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I was actually considering using luigi as a secondary in particular for the pikachu mu. IMO, luigi is greninja's opposite in this game. Slow, amazing frame data, loves to shield, completely opposite of ninja's terrible oos options, amazing mobility and mediocre frame data. Plus, he is fairly easy to learn in comparison and also has a more established meta backing him up.

I'm not concerned about the sheik mu. If the balancing team watched Umebura FAT, I'm sure she is going to get nerfed even more. Even if she doesn't, no character really beats sheik atm so it is just a matter of learning to outplay the char. Pikachu on the other hand is unlikely to get nerfed since nobody uses him in Japan.
Yeah, besides Sheik, Luigi complements Greninja greatly. Handles slightly bad matchups like Fox and Sonic along with other top tiers such as Mario, Diddy, and Pikachu. Greninja can handle Luigi's problematic matchups where his mobility is an issue. It's pretty simple to pick up Luigi and I don't see why not.
 
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Guimartgon

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Yeah, besides Sheik, Luigi complements Greninja greatly. Handles slightly bad matchups like Fox and Sonic along with other top tiers such as Mario, Diddy, and Pikachu. Greninja can handle Luigi's problematic matchups where his mobility is an issue. It's pretty simple to pick up Luigi and I don't see why not.
I guess we only have sheik now.
 

biribiri

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I guess we only have sheik now.
Unfortunately. I guess having a check to Sonic/Sheik/Fox was too much to ask for. I think Rosalina might fit that bill, although she's definitely not as easy as the green plumber. For now it's solo Greninja for me.
 
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Guimartgon

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I still have my Mario which makes me happy, but we'll have to investigate secondaries yeah. Pikachu could be interesting too, but of course he is not as easy to play as Luigi.
 

E.D.N.D.N

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Considering the patch and future patches I definitely want to just wait it out before I commit to anybody other than greninja. Also his fair and nair are safer on shield now and that is gonna be huge for his approach options. I think the shield stun increase was a pretty huge buff to greninja and his matchups might change as a result.
 
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