Secondaries for Mario

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

Seeing as it is pretty early in the game, now is the best time to figure out who complements Mario's weaknesses. I feel like his biggest problems is low range against spacing oriented characters like Marth or Greninja (if they play it right) and with characters that can trump his neutral game and stop approaches like Duck Hunt Dog and Rosalina.

I've been thinking that Pikachu would complement Mario well, but I don't really have a good reason for that other than Pikachu having a good neutral game and a good recovery.

So who have you been using for a secondary as of now?

 

[NairWizard]

Mario is my secondary for Pikachu and Mii Gunner.

I do recommend Pikachu solely because he pretty much crushes everyone, lol.

But you don't really need a secondary for Mario; he goes even with most of the cast. Customs especially give him all the tools that he needs to succeed.

There are a few matchups that are hard for Mario without customs:
Ganondorf, Luigi, Diddy Kong, and Donkey Kong come to mind. These matchups are kind of one-sided, but he does pretty well in all of the other matchups in the game.

 

[Incendiary]

Honestly, No one. I feel that Mario doesn't have a huge disadvantage with anyone except Maybe Shiek

 

[HeroMystic]

If you're gonna pick a secondary for Mario, I see no logical point to using a character that isn't top tier, which means you should either pick Diddy, Sheik, Pikachu, or Rosalina. Mario does well enough against the cast to keep trucking with him.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

There are a few matchups that are hard for Mario without customs:
Ganondorf, Luigi, Diddy Kong, and Donkey Kong come to mind.

I can understand the Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong, but I don't think Ganondorf or Luigi are that one sided, even without customs.

I think luigi has a better grab punish than us, and more reliable kill potential as well, but the shield push that he gets makes it very difficult for him to be able to respond to well spaced bairs. His kill moves also require a misplay on our part, so if we play the matchup very cautiously I think it's just about even, more of a skill based matchup. Also our fireballs are able to beat his out because of the gravity effect allowing ours to win pretty much every time fireballs are traded provided Mario jumps first. Although we also have trouble landing a kill on luigi, fresh bairs and uairs will be able to do the job soon enough.

I don't have any experience against the ganon, all I know is his usmash is essentially unpunishable once the hitbox comes out, but from what I could tell is that it's still the same slow ganon. He can kill is really early, but he has to be able to hit us first, and once we get in against him, he's gonna have a hard time. Also his lack of projecitles and approaching options make it hell for ganon I'd imagine.



I honestly don't think secondaries would be needed for a character with no -2 / 35:65 or worse matchups, is Mario really that lucky in this installment to not have any of those?

 

[NairWizard]

I can understand the Diddy Kong and Donkey Kong, but I don't think Ganondorf or Luigi are that one sided, even without customs.

I think luigi has a better grab punish than us, and more reliable kill potential as well, but the shield push that he gets makes it very difficult for him to be able to respond to well spaced bairs. His kill moves also require a misplay on our part, so if we play the matchup very cautiously I think it's just about even, more of a skill based matchup. Also our fireballs are able to beat his out because of the gravity effect allowing ours to win pretty much every time fireballs are traded provided Mario jumps first. Although we also have trouble landing a kill on luigi, fresh bairs and uairs will be able to do the job soon enough.

Mario's fireballs are not as threatening as Luigi's, though, which is a big problem even though Mario can space fireballs to beat Luigi when both are camping.

Luigi has an easier time killing Mario than the reverse (because of d-throw cyclone). His b-air outranges Mario's, and his up-smash has more vertical range since he's taller, so it catches landings slightly more easily.

Luigi's grab punish game is not just better; it's dominant. Luigi can n-air out of Mario's followups and his n-air is crazy strong/good.

It's not a landslide in Luigi's favor but 55:45 or 60:40 is reasonable.

I don't have any experience against the ganon, all I know is his usmash is essentially unpunishable once the hitbox comes out, but from what I could tell is that it's still the same slow ganon. He can kill is really early, but he has to be able to hit us first, and once we get in against him, he's gonna have a hard time. Also his lack of projecitles and approaching options make it hell for ganon I'd imagine.

The problem is getting in. n-air and d-tilt cover all of Mario's approach options because Mario has no range. Ganon might be slow, but if he's powershielding fireballs then Mario has quite a tough time getting anywhere in Ganon's immediate range. Ganon also has scary strong edgeguarding with up-air.

I'd also call this 55:45 or 60:40.


Mario doesn't have any matchups worse than 55:45 or 60:40. There's no matchup where he just gets clobbered and can't do anything. He truly doesn't need secondaries, imo.

 

[A2ZOMG]

@ NairWizard where did you get experience against Ganon? Personally me I obviously am invested in both characters and know how to exploit the matchup on both sides, but find it easier with Ganon for reasons I've explained in detail previously. And then I played some games with Gungnir, got amusingly destroyed by his Ganon in all of them, but did noticeably better in the ditto matchup as opposed to with my Mario where it was basically the first time I watched a Ganon other than myself properly using aerials to wall out approaches from Mario.

Just honestly curious, given you'e putting more tournament effort in Mario than I am...given I'm more committed to Ganon in tournament right now. Most people right now seem to have a hard time believing that Ganondorf has favorable matchups in this game.

 

[NairWizard]

@ NairWizard where did you get experience against Ganon? Personally me I obviously am invested in both characters and know how to exploit the matchup on both sides, but find it easier with Ganon for reasons I've explained in detail previously. And then I played some games with Gungnir, got amusingly destroyed by his Ganon in all of them, but did noticeably better in the ditto matchup as opposed to with my Mario where it was basically the first time I watched a Ganon other than myself properly using aerials to wall out approaches from Mario.

Just honestly curious, given you'e putting more tournament effort in Mario than I am...given I'm more committed to Ganon in tournament right now. Most people right now seem to have a hard time believing that Ganondorf has favorable matchups in this game.

Have used a bit of Ganon against Mario in tournament, because Mario is one of my most frustrating matchups as basically all of my characters except for Ganon. Whenever I face a Mario that goes too even with Pikachu, I'm just like, screw this, time to bust out Ganon.

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

What does ganon have that can be abused against Mario though? Not that I want this turning into a matchup thread since we already have one of those, but I'm more curious. I feel like ganon struggles against characters that can punish his laggy moves with fast responses and Mario fits into that role perfectly.

 

[HeroMystic]

The thing is Ganon is actually not very laggy unless he takes unnessecary risks.

Flame Choke mix-ups ruins your conditioning to shield his attacks and Wizard's Foot (Down-B) is a solid anti-juggle vs Mario. The MU is a lot closer than one would expect because Mario has no easy way to get into Ganon's personal space. Mario has to bait and punish Ganon constantly, and that's a dangerous game against a character who has one of the most damaging movesets.

 

[A2ZOMG]

What does ganon have that can be abused against Mario though? Not that I want this turning into a matchup thread since we already have one of those, but I'm more curious. I feel like ganon struggles against characters that can punish his laggy moves with fast responses and Mario fits into that role perfectly.

His N-air really is not that laggy. It got mega buffed during one of the patches and has a lot less landing lag than before. He can also autocancel his B-air and U-air as well which are more situational but also effective.

D-tilt is also pretty fast, and not easy to punish on block unless you perfect shield. Retreat Pivot F-tilt also covers a lot of Mario's approach options and isn't easy to punish.

Mario typically has to play really defensively and use shield and dodges to get around these moves, which is dangerous against Ganon's U-smash and Flame Choke. Also Ganon is able to trade with Mario's Up-B with his U-air, F-air, and N-air when edgeguarding, and his own juggles against Mario are devastatingly powerful.

You could play against me if you want to see how I believe Ganon should play the matchup.

 

[NairWizard]

Yeah, @ HeroMystic nailed it (and ninja @ A2ZOMG above) Ganon is only laggy if he uses f-smash.

f-air, d-tilt, up-air, b-air, and n-air are very safe moves. up-smash is near lagless at the end.

dash attack is great for punishing a spacing mistake on Mario's part.

Flame Choke is basically not too threatening offline (well, mildly; it's just really easy to see coming in neutral, but you can get punished for rolling), but getting hit by it causes you to take tons of damage.

 

[Flameleon]

-Mario vs Ganon is scary, haha. In brawl, it was a walk in the park though, the key to beat a Ganon is just punish his landing, exploit dair for that, and when you knock him out of stage, he's pretty much gone, unless he ganoncides haha. Anyways, in my experience, if you need a secondary for Mario, you need to cover aspects that he lacks and use at the same time someone who has some kind of Mario playstyle, so you can adjust easily between them, in my case, it's DK.

DK can do shdouble bair, has a fair spike, can upB oos, can punish with utilt but he has what Mario don't: range and ko power, also has the same kinda weakness like Mario from below him.

Mii Gunner is so fun too, if you struggle vs someone, don't let him touch you by using mii gunner haha...-

 

[MEOW1337KITTEH]

I'd love to play, but the internet here is so terrible I would learn nothing. But I didn't know that his aerials can autocancel now, that changes my perspective on the matchup a lot. Thanks for the insight!

 

[popsofctown]

I think the only secondary that might actually be worthwhile for Mario is Luigi, because he has the smallest time cost if you already know Mario. His matchup spread is so reasonable that you shouldn't really need a secondary, so the one that costs very little to learn makes the most sense.

Doc is much less likely to have a matchup ratio somewhere that is better than Mario's.

 

[NairWizard]

I think the only secondary that might actually be worthwhile for Mario is Luigi, because he has the smallest time cost if you already know Mario. His matchup spread is so reasonable that you shouldn't really need a secondary, so the one that costs very little to learn makes the most sense.

Doc is much less likely to have a matchup ratio somewhere that is better than Mario's.

I don't think that Luigi and Mario play alike at all. Mario is all about abusing his excellent airspeed to weave his way in with lagless aerials. Luigi is all about looking for grounded openings through carefully placed jab1s, with the occasional SH f-air (or b-air to kill). He also can't shield as much as Mario due to his traction, so he relies on spotdodges or cyclone to get in.

They do share projectile conditioning into grab -> rewards, but that's a common paradigm.

It's true that they cover each other's matchups pretty well, but they both struggle with swords/disjoints, so they also share a common problem (but those MUs are probably close to even for both, anyway, because sword/disjoint characters are not great in this game).

 

[popsofctown]

I don't think that Luigi and Mario play alike at all. Mario is all about abusing his excellent airspeed to weave his way in with lagless aerials. Luigi is all about looking for grounded openings through carefully placed jab1s, with the occasional SH f-air (or b-air to kill). He also can't shield as much as Mario due to his traction, so he relies on spotdodges or cyclone to get in.

They do share projectile conditioning into grab -> rewards, but that's a common paradigm.

It's true that they cover each other's matchups pretty well, but they both struggle with swords/disjoints, so they also share a common problem (but those MUs are probably close to even for both, anyway, because sword/disjoint characters are not great in this game).

He's mechanically similar with similar hitbubbles and frame data, though ideologically different. Ideologically similar characters tend to have a similar matchup spread to Mario so they aren't as helpful to secondary. I don't feel like picking up Pit or Brawler actually helps me against anyone.

 

[NairWizard]

He's mechanically similar with similar hitbubbles and frame data, though ideologically different. Ideologically similar characters tend to have a similar matchup spread to Mario so they aren't as helpful to secondary. I don't feel like picking up Pit or Brawler actually helps me against anyone.

If the idea is to minimize the timeCost:matchupCoverage ratio, then the simply answer is to learn Diddy Kong. Straightforward secondary, covers basically every character that Mario has issues with.

The Luigi pairing is thematically cooler, and I'm all for theme, so there's that.

 

[popsofctown]

Pocket Diddy, like pocket MK in the game prior, has the cost of facing opponents with a lot of familiarity with the character you're secondarying.
But in both cases, it's still a really strong option anway.
That would be more of the draw to playing Luigi rather than theme.
I think Diddy and Luigi are about equal as secondaries for Mario, maybe with an edge to Diddy, but Diddy is an obvious strong secondary to everyone so it's not the first thing I think of in a thread pertaining specifically to Mario.

 

[HeroMystic]

How does Luigi do in the Ganon MU? Obviously he's a more dangerous CQC fighter but I imagine Ganon has an even easier time keeping him out, even with Cyclone in mind.

 

[NairWizard]

How does Luigi do in the Ganon MU? Obviously he's a more dangerous CQC fighter but I imagine Ganon has an even easier time keeping him out, even with Cyclone in mind.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JLftGlc-Hhs

 

[A2ZOMG]

How does Luigi do in the Ganon MU? Obviously he's a more dangerous CQC fighter but I imagine Ganon has an even easier time keeping him out, even with Cyclone in mind.

Luigi kinda counters Ganon...Luigi's way superior fireball actually is really hard to deal with in neutral and gives him a lot of windows to approach with grab. Plus unlike Mario he has KO confirms out of grab.

There's like about ten or so matchups that I consider clearly unfavorable for Ganon. Luigi is one of them. Ganon wins 55/45 against eight or so matchups (Mario and Doc being two of them), and everything else for him is technically about even (though Ganon's matchup dynamics in actual practice can be really volatile).

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

I love playing ganon. But if I'm playing against a ganon with Mario he's getting Camped Out All Day. Marrio's fireball is more than sufficient to frustrate a ganon to doing stupid things. Plus you can crouch wizard kick and make it whiff. So all you have to do is tap down to react to his best rush move. Plus Mario can absolutely combo ganon like CRAZY. And standard mario combos still work on ganon even if you get your first grab or first uptilt when ganon is at 30-40%.


In terms of secondaries I just want someone with better range. I only feel like I'm losing with this character when I simply cannot get in (happens most often against good Rosalinas).

 

[A2ZOMG]

I love playing ganon. But if I'm playing against a ganon with Mario he's getting Camped Out All Day. Marrio's fireball is more than sufficient to frustrate a ganon to doing stupid things. Plus you can crouch wizard kick and make it whiff. So all you have to do is tap down to react to his best rush move. Plus Mario can absolutely combo ganon like CRAZY. And standard mario combos still work on ganon even if you get your first grab or first uptilt when ganon is at 30-40%.


In terms of secondaries I just want someone with better range. I only feel like I'm losing with this character when I simply cannot get in (happens most often against good Rosalinas).

You can't really beat Ganon by just camping...when he can punish fireballs by powershielding and looking to DA or N-air if you're in range. Also a good Ganon generally waits for you to be in the air or to whiff a move before using Wizkick.

 

[NairWizard]

I love playing ganon. But if I'm playing against a ganon with Mario he's getting Camped Out All Day. Marrio's fireball is more than sufficient to frustrate a ganon to doing stupid things. Plus you can crouch wizard kick and make it whiff. So all you have to do is tap down to react to his best rush move. Plus Mario can absolutely combo ganon like CRAZY. And standard mario combos still work on ganon even if you get your first grab or first uptilt when ganon is at 30-40%.


In terms of secondaries I just want someone with better range. I only feel like I'm losing with this character when I simply cannot get in (happens most often against good Rosalinas).

Uh, this will never work against a good Ganon. Fireball is easily powershielded, and it leaves Mario in the air and vulnerable to up-air and n-air. Ganon is probably Mario's worst matchup, at least in my experience as and against Mario.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

When I say throwing fireballs I mean using them as a primary means to stay out of range of ganon's safe approach tools, DA and nair as you mentioned are his best tools on the ground and air respectively. Down-tilt is also a move to look out for as is flame choke of course (you can't really just hide in shield against ganon)

Ganon simply cannot approach a Mario who is playing intelligently and is mindful of his stage positioning. Mario has tools like max range bair and cross up dair to poke at Ganon's shield which allow Mario acquire better positioning to throw more fireballs.

Powershielding gives ganon more frames to approach but still isn't an issue if mario is throwing fireballs from far away enough.

I use the word camp because I think its the smash equivalent of the word Lame in traditional fighting games.
When I say camp I don't mean "throw fireballs with impunity" but actually mean that mario should be constantly moving backwards and staying center stage relative to ganon in order to take advantage of Ganon's slow movement while staying as safe as possible. The goal of this is to cause the ganon player to play more desperately and then it becomes easier and easier for Mario to make simple reads to rack up damage and win the match.

 

[HeroMystic]

Luigi kinda counters Ganon...Luigi's way superior fireball actually is really hard to deal with in neutral and gives him a lot of windows to approach with grab. Plus unlike Mario he has KO confirms out of grab.

There's like about ten or so matchups that I consider clearly unfavorable for Ganon. Luigi is one of them. Ganon wins 55/45 against eight or so matchups (Mario and Doc being two of them), and everything else for him is technically about even (though Ganon's matchup dynamics in actual practice can be really volatile).

If that's the case then Luigi actually becomes a logical secondary to have. They both have a rough time against swordies, but it isn't insanely difficult for either of them to win.

 

[A2ZOMG]

When I say throwing fireballs I mean using them as a primary means to stay out of range of ganon's safe approach tools, DA and nair as you mentioned are his best tools on the ground and air respectively. Down-tilt is also a move to look out for as is flame choke of course (you can't really just hide in shield against ganon)

Ganon simply cannot approach a Mario who is playing intelligently and is mindful of his stage positioning. Mario has tools like max range bair and cross up dair to poke at Ganon's shield which allow Mario acquire better positioning to throw more fireballs.

Powershielding gives ganon more frames to approach but still isn't an issue if mario is throwing fireballs from far away enough.

I use the word camp because I think its the smash equivalent of the word Lame in traditional fighting games.
When I say camp I don't mean "throw fireballs with impunity" but actually mean that mario should be constantly moving backwards and staying center stage relative to ganon in order to take advantage of Ganon's slow movement while staying as safe as possible. The goal of this is to cause the ganon player to play more desperately and then it becomes easier and easier for Mario to make simple reads to rack up damage and win the match.

Ganon approaches slowly just fine. He walks, powershields, and aims to get in DA and D-tilt range, where he has the advantage and Mario is put on the defensive. If he sees Mario jump, N-air covers basically everything Mario can do in midrange, including Fireball approach because N-air will swat the fireball and then hit Mario out of any aerial. Ganon also can N-air or U-air out of shield when Mario does B-air on Ganon's shield unless Mario is spaced absolutely perfectly, which is what Ganon wants Mario to do most of the time when he outperforms Mario very significantly in midrange.

On the ground, Mario has slightly more options, but none of them are very reliable against Ganon's D-tilt. He has a lot of trouble punishing D-tilt without a powershield read, and Ganon's D-tilt both does 13% and sets up juggles, something which Ganon is devastatingly powerful at. Ganon's D-tilt head to head will outrange all of Mario's moves including F-smash, so Mario has no direct options against it. He has to successfully read and defend his way in.

Mario has other options like SH airdodge -> aerial, spotdodging, and rolling. Unfortunately all of these are fairly high commitment and heavily punishable. Ganondorf can throw out U-smash fairly safely in this matchup due to its low ending lag and Mario's short ranged ground moves, and if Mario commits to these options when Ganondorf does a U-smash, he eats 21 damage minimum, not factoring the legitimate combos and juggles from U-smash which can result in Mario taking upwards of 40% and being put offstage where his stock can be ended by a successful edgeguard that can trade hits with his Up-B. Flame Choke is also a very strong response to forced defensive reactions, and sets up techchases and combos into D-tilt and F-tilt.

The main thing that keeps Mario in this matchup is Ganondorf indeed is very easily juggled once Mario gets in. However Mario can't completely disrespect Ganondorf when juggling him due to the threat of aerial Wizkick, which can kill anywhere from 80-100% when fresh, and will often trade with U-smash directly. Mario's best chance of winning this matchup is trying to aggressively bait Ganon in midrange and try to get him to make a mistake that leaves him open to D-air, and gaining momentum from there.

 

[NairWizard]

Another way to identify the problem here is by considering that Mario would win this matchup quite easily if he had Pikachu's d-tilt and f-air. You need ways to challenge and pressure Ganon at a distance slightly further than up close.

 

[Berserker.]

I don't think Mario really needs a secondary (he is an amazing back up character) because as said, he doesn't get stomped by anyone (maybe except Sheik) in this game. If you still want a secondary for Mario, just take any character that's good or at least decent against Sheik.

 

[OGPiP]

Mario is my secondary for Pikachu and Mii Gunner.

I do recommend Pikachu solely because he pretty much crushes everyone, lol.

But you don't really need a secondary for Mario; he goes even with most of the cast. Customs especially give him all the tools that he needs to succeed.

There are a few matchups that are hard for Mario without customs:
Ganondorf, Luigi, Diddy Kong, and Donkey Kong come to mind. These matchups are kind of one-sided, but he does pretty well in all of the other matchups in the game.

I don't see how Gannon is a bad match-up for Mario. Gannon is combo food, really predictable (and honestly just bad) recovery, if you cape him during it he's done. He has no way of breaking out of up-tilt chains. Neutral is easy, you can kind of just hold shield and wait for him to approach.

Then again, the only Gannon mains I've played against are bad players so maybe I just haven't played against anyone that knows the match up well enough.

 

[phantom man]

I like to play Marth and Mario. They're my dream team.

 

[FUEGO!]

I don't see how Gannon is a bad match-up for Mario. Gannon is combo food, really predictable (and honestly just bad) recovery, if you cape him during it he's done. He has no way of breaking out of up-tilt chains. Neutral is easy, you can kind of just hold shield and wait for him to approach.

Then again, the only Gannon mains I've played against are bad players so maybe I just haven't played against anyone that knows the match up well enough.

If that's what the Ganon's that you play have done, than yes, they were terrible in fact. If he didn't see you shield and immediately Flame choke tech chase you, they have no idea what they are doing.

 

[Underhill]

Mario is amazing without a secondary, but if its comes to good players that uses ,,,, and, then here's what I think that can be suggested and here what fighters that I'll use from personal experience if you have a hard time against these characters as Mario.
:,,,,
:,,
:,,
:,,
: Fine against her, but ,, in case.

While I main Luigi, Pikachu, Rosalina, and don't main CF and ZSS, these are the fighters that I play with and have knowledge on so these are my suggestions. If I had trouble against the characters up top as Mario, then I would switch to those for the match-up and come up with different strategies along the way.

 

[Dar4]

Mario doesn't need a secondary. He beats or goes about even with everyone...except maybe sheik. If you do want one, maybe take someone like ZSS who just destroys some matchups like donkey kong that are somewhat even for mario. On the other hand, practicing a secondary takes time away from improving your mario so that may or may not be worth it for you.

As for the gannon matchup, it has to be atleast 60-40 in mario's favor. Camp ganon with fireballs, force him to approach and commit to something then punish. I've played lots of gannons in tournament and beating them follows the same campy, bait and punish formula despite your character. And Mario can do that well with his frame data and aerial speed, and he can combo ganon for days and edgeguard with cape to boot.

I know ganon isn't bad in this game but mario definitely wins this. Just play campy and baity.