Samus Shield Damage

[Xygonn]

Big update!

So in some other threads people were remarking how Samus is pretty good at breaking shields. Ok. So basically (according to the smashwiki) shields in SSB4 have 42 hp, lose 6.5 hp per second (they take about the same amount of time to break while being held down) while up and regain ~3.8 hp per second while down (this number seems to be about the same as before). With the 1.1.5 update, nair is a real shield killing monster. When fresh, the first hit of nair guaruntees the second hit of nair on shield if you are moving through your opponent dealing just shy of 20 shield damage. Even when not fresh the first hit of guaruntees your opponent's only choice to avoid the second hit on shield is to take the 9% back hit. On cross up this isn't horribly unsafe and is -8 if you land as you hit the 9% back hit of nair.

Nair (fresh) + bomb (fresh) = shield break

Samus has lots of moves that do bonus shield damage:

Bomb:
Bomb
Frame 52-53: 4%(+6) 22b/45g (KO@ 828%) 361° 0.6-Hitlag Fire
Max Damage: 4%
Bomb (explosion)
Frame 1-18: 5%(+6) 15b/45g (KO@ 740%) 361° 0.3-Hitlag Fire
Max Damage: 5%

A bomb hitting on both frames (pre explosion+explosion) does a pretty meaty 21 shield damage. Some people already noticed bombs are great at hitting shields, I'm just giving you the raw numbers. Notably megabomb does 29 shield damage. Slip bomb only does ~8.

Charge shot gets 3% bonus damage on a full charge only:
Charge shot does 25 damage max plus 3% shield damage for 28 shield damage.
DCS does 30 shield damage
MCS does 23 shield damage

Missiles get 1% bonus shield damage and super missiles get 5% bonus shield damage:
Missile (super):
Frame 1- 2: 10%(+5) 50b/65g (KO@ 273%) 65° Fire
Max Damage: 10%

15 damage from a regular super missile

Relentless Missile (super)
Frame 1- 2: 12%(+5) 50b/65g (KO@ 240%) 60° Fire

17 damage from a relentless super missile

Max Damage: 12%
Turbo Missile (super)
Frame 1-59: 9%(+5) 50b/65g (KO@ 300%) 65° Fire
Max Damage: 9%

14 damage from a turbo super missile

Missile (homing:
5+1 for regular missiles = 6 damage
3+1 for relentless = 4 damage
4+1 for turbo = 5 damage

Screw Attacks:
Regular (Grounded)
Frame 5- 6: 2%(+3)
Frame 7- 8: [1%(+3)]x3
Frame 11-12: [1%(+3)]x6
Frame 27-28: 1%(+3)

5+4*3+4*6+4=45 max shield damage, this is really more about how you can poke even a full shield if you screw attack someone on a platform. With the new mechanics this can net shield breaks pretty often.

Regular (Aerial)
Frame 5- 6: [1%(+3)]x3
Frame 11-12: [1%(+3)]x8
Frame 27-28: 1%(+3)
4*3+4*8+4=48 shield damage, this is also a huge overestimate of anything you are going to hit, but again, shows how you can shield poke on a recovery or against someone on a platform. With the new mechanics this can net shield breaks very often.


Rush
Frame 11-23: [2%(+3)]x5
Frame 25-25: 5%(+3)
That's 33 shield damage, which is also pretty good.

Apex
Frame 15-15: 2%
Frame 26-27: 7%
No bonus. You aren't poking any shields with this or even doing any respectable shield damage.

All of Samus' basic moves don't do any bonus shield damage, however, uair and fair have relatively long durations of 16 frames and 26 frames respectively giving a sort of bonus because of the time. Full uair and full bair do some extra shield damage during the looping frames. Uair has 4 extra looping frames where the opponent may drop shield adding about 0.4 shield damage for 11.4 total. Fair has 15 looping frames where the opponent may drop shield adding about 1.6 damage or 14.4 total shield damage. Nair has or one or zero frames between the two hits, resulting in no real shield damage benefit from holding shield for both hits.

My favorite shield break (really only works if the opponent is giving you breathing room in the first place):
Super Missile -> CS
You don't need a homing missile anymore.
This works best from almost all the way across the stage
15+28=43 = shield break. This is escapable, but I have found it useful.

A potential shield breaker I've now worked into my game:
Bomb->CS: if they block and look like they are gonna get sweet spotted, and you have a CS, that's a shield break! 21+28+shield time=50 no problem. Even stale this will break a shield. Maybe this is a good option from a ledge retreated bomb drop.

New shield breakers in 1.1.1 that are pretty functional:
Strong hit of bair + CS
Strong hit of dair + CS
Both hits of nair + CS
Utilt + CS
Jab1 + Jab2 + CS
Fair (all hits) + CS
2xZair (both hits) + CS
SM + CS (used to need a little bit more)

New shield breakers in 1.1.5 that kinda work
Both hits of dsmash + both hits of nair
Both hits of dsmash + bomb (still not super practical but the better faf makes stuff better)
Both hits of nair + bomb (both fresh, otherwise great shield pressure)
Both hits of nair x2 (fresh only, may need some additional pressure, this is a bit short)


I believe Samus has the single best shield pressure in the game now. With the 1.1.5 changes things got even better.

 

[Highgarden]

4*3+4*8+4=48 shield damage, this is also a huge overestimate of anything you are going to hit, but again, shows how you can shield poke on a recovery or against someone on a platform.

Now to test who's dumb enough to full shield from a reverse Screwattack from below ledges.

 

[Xygonn]

Now to test who's dumb enough to full shield from a reverse Screwattack from below ledges.

You're gonna tell me you don't know anyone that walks up to the ledge and shields? It's a pretty good place to be for several characters, including Samus. It's a pretty safe option against the vast majority of the cast and lets you wait out ledge invulnerability while waiting for a read.

 

[Afro Smash]

Actually yeah I never really thought about using it from the ledge before, and shielding opponents were the one thing I didn't properly know how to take on from the ledge. If they Shield far a fair distance away im still not certain of the best option, I usually just wait and if i see an approach roll on stage

 

[Highgarden]

You're gonna tell me you don't know anyone that walks up to the ledge and shields? It's a pretty good place to be for several characters, including Samus. It's a pretty safe option against the vast majority of the cast and lets you wait out ledge invulnerability while waiting for a read.

Honestly, it's rare in my experiences, but that's besides the point. I would just like to see a reverse Screw Attack chew up a shield coming up on ledge. Works well on people without shields especially since you don't snap.

 

[IsmaR]

Don't forget stages with floors and platforms you can jump under/through. Get a lot of mileage dipping under Delfino/Halberd/Kongo Jungle and the like. Not the smartest thing to deliberately do, as whiffing ir missing will get you punished hard.

The main use I find for Screw Attack vs shields is on stages with high platforms, like Battlefield and the tree on Duck Hunt. Samus goes just barely high enough to land on the platforms from Up B on the ground, so works out should you fail to fully break the shield, since you can either DI off the platform should you miss.

 

[Xygonn]

Actually yeah I never really thought about using it from the ledge before, and shielding opponents were the one thing I didn't properly know how to take on from the ledge. If they Shield far a fair distance away im still not certain of the best option, I usually just wait and if i see an approach roll on stage

If you can roll behind them, I roll behind them. If they are facing away, use a regular getup or instant wall hop (very hard online). If they are beyond the range of a roll and facing the edge I think a jump, regular, or instant wall hop are all decently safe. Maybe even plank a missile or zair. You can get sometimes get shield pokes with a drop ->jump zair on stages where zair passes through like FD and Battlefield.

 

[Boney]

Oh so every attack does the same shield damage as % damage with the exception of specials that can get bonuses? That's neat, plus I had no idea every character had the same shield hp but good to know it'll help track this.

That shield regeneration is just ridiculous, should be half of that. Like it's impossible to break shields unless you have a special b move that can do it like bowser or Marth, and building shield pressure is for naught if you can't take advantage of it

Also, can't you hold down and go over the ledge with a frontal up b as well?

 

[Xygonn]

Oh so every attack does the same shield damage as % damage with the exception of specials that can get bonuses? That's neat, plus I had no idea every character had the same shield hp but good to know it'll help track this.

That shield regeneration is just ridiculous, should be half of that. Like it's impossible to break shields unless you have a special b move that can do it like bowser or Marth, and building shield pressure is for naught if you can't take advantage of it

Also, can't you hold down and go over the ledge with a frontal up b as well?

For Samus, that's correct.

Some character's regular attacks have bonus shield damage (e.g. Ganon's volcano kick, dedede fsmash, luigi fsmash).

I'm not sure about being able to go over the ledge with a forward screw attack. I think you have to push the stick away as you start it up or you'll latch.

It is pretty hard to get a shield break with most chars in this game.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Shield breaking in this game has to be set up so quickly that the opponents really doesn't have the time to think "that first hit took a chunk out of my shield, I should dodge the next attack instead". I think bombs and relentless missiles are the best setups for this because their hitbox is delayed long enough to throw other hitboxes out that are unavoidable if they decide to shield. Just my 2 cents.

 

[DungeonMaster]

Thanks a lot for this list @ Xygonn I was really hoping you would do this since you were very knowledgeable on the subject.
Is there an updated link on the pastebin data which includes shield damage? Or is the shield damage from mastercore? Can you please point me to where you got it from? The link I have doesn't have any bonus shield damage listed.

 

[Boney]

For Samus, that's correct.

Some character's regular attacks have bonus shield damage (e.g. Ganon's volcano kick, dedede fsmash, luigi fsmash).

I'm not sure about being able to go over the ledge with a forward screw attack. I think you have to push the stick away as you start it up or you'll latch.

It is pretty hard to get a shield break with most chars in this game.

I'm 99% sure that holding down is a universal system where you never latch the edge, not even while doing an up b. it's not gonna work if you're too close due to not being able to input it fast enough, but if you're going for the shield, that's not the distance you would want to do it either way.

 

[Xygonn]

Thanks a lot for this list @ Xygonn I was really hoping you would do this since you were very knowledgeable on the subject.
Is there an updated link on the pastebin data which includes shield damage? Or is the shield damage from mastercore? Can you please point me to where you got it from? The link I have doesn't have any bonus shield damage listed.

The bonus shield damage is in parentheses in the pastebin.

 

[Afro Smash]

Found another good Shield Break set up

Bair = 14%
CS = 28%
1 Sec of shield = 7.7%
Total = 49.7%

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

That's really clever and seems like a realistic option that isn't a one in a million scenario good find!

 

[E.Lopez]

Now to test who's dumb enough to full shield from a reverse Screwattack from below ledges.

What is a reverse Screw attack?

 

[Afro Smash]

What is a reverse Screw attack?

Screw attacking with your back to the ledge, you can also change the direction your facing at the very start of a screw attack

 

[E.Lopez]

Screw attacking with your back to the ledge, you can also change the direction your facing at the very start of a screw attack

So this is new to me, I had no idea this was even a thing and what are reasons to use forward or reverse screw attack. I hadn't seen this mentioned in other threads, sorry if I missed it. I can only guess that it's for Samus to steer which direction she wants the opponent to fly toward? If so, I can understand why, if an opponent is shielding tight at the ledge while Samus is hanging, she may want to reverse screw attack through their shield to send them away from the stage. Is that right? Or, is it to avoid ledge snap?

Also, screw attack comes out so quickly, I'm not sure I would even be quick enough or able to tell if I had reversed it or not.

 

[Afro Smash]

Do it in training mode on 1/4 speed and youll see it, and yeah its so you can input up b in one diagonal direction, but still turn around and snap ledge, or in this case, not snap ledge

 

[Xygonn]

Good video of @ Afro Smash using the bomb -> CS shield break

 

[DungeonMaster]

Thread necromancy. Are you going to update this one Xygonn ?
This appears to be the new shield stun formula: https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

 

[Xygonn]

Thread necromancy. Are you going to update this one Xygonn ?
This appears to be the new shield stun formula: https://mobile.twitter.com/gengar6tomo/status/649421520733802496

I'll have to update this thread and the shield grab thread. The shield grab thread is gonna be a lot more work.

Do you know if there is an updated shield HP, depletion and recovery rate?

 

[DungeonMaster]

Nothing solid yet, a lot of heresay. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3n1o1u/shield_regeneration_rate_decreased_majorly_999/
Not clear it's changed at all.

 

[Xygonn]

Nothing solid yet, a lot of heresay. https://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/3n1o1u/shield_regeneration_rate_decreased_majorly_999/
Not clear it's changed at all.

I'll wait for better info to update this thread. The shield grab thread I can do with just the new shield stun formula.

 

[Xygonn]

Pardon the double post, but OP updated, wanted to bump the topic.

 

[Boney]

Pardon the double post, but OP updated, wanted to bump the topic.

Are we sure it's 43 on shield hp? I saw the Little Mac and wario waft video but could the waft just have extra shield damage?

Just yesterday I hit all the Screwattack hits dead center against someone on top of battlefield top platform and the shield survived with minimal health. First hit wasn't perfect shielded. I guess the move could've been staled though.

Still, I don't think anybody actually knows what's going on with shields now.

 

[Xygonn]

Are we sure it's 43 on shield hp? I saw the Little Mac and wario waft video but could the waft just have extra shield damage?

Just yesterday I hit all the Screwattack hits dead center against someone on top of battlefield top platform and the shield survived with minimal health. First hit wasn't perfect shielded. I guess the move could've been staled though.

Still, I don't think anybody actually knows what's going on with shields now.

If you used grounded screw attack you missed the first hit (2+3) leaving you with 40 damage, probably also missed the second hit for another four leaving you with 36. AFAIK rose waft doesn't do bonus shield damage. If you look at the frame data and such, this move doesn't have shield damage.

EDIT: could someone with tech skill capture a ILWJ bair, dj, RCS shield break. Would be sexy AF, thanks.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

What is ILWJ bair?

 

[Vyrnx]

What is ILWJ bair?

Instant ledge wall jump bair. Instead of doing a drop down traditional wall jump to bair, which is slow, you can do a special thingy where you hit away from the ledge and immediately smash the control stick into the stage. Samus will wall jump and be at a really good height for bair. It's really hard to do, but rewarding for Samus.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeC-9YYqfEY

 

[Xygonn]

What is ILWJ bair?

I hardly ever do it online because the input is strict, but it's actually pretty good offline. You do an instant ledge wall jump, where you wall jump right off a ledge release, then bair.

 

[Boney]

If you used grounded screw attack you missed the first hit (2+3) leaving you with 40 damage, probably also missed the second hit for another four leaving you with 36. AFAIK rose waft doesn't do bonus shield damage. If you look at the frame data and such, this move doesn't have shield damage.

EDIT: could someone with tech skill capture a ILWJ bair, dj, RCS shield break. Would be sexy AF, thanks.

Here's the footage. It happens at 1:24. Pretty sure I got all hits

http://youtu.be/_q2pXcH2wpM

 

[Xygonn]

Here's the footage. It happens at 1:24. Pretty sure I got all hits

http://youtu.be/_q2pXcH2wpM

You definitely didn't get the startup hit, but you got the rest for 40, just short of 42.

 

[Boney]

You definitely didn't get the startup hit, but you got the rest for 40, just short of 42.

So I guess that's certainly proof that shields don't deteriorate while being in hit stun. Good to know I guess.

 

[Afro Smash]

Found another Shield Break set up

 

[Xygonn]

Found another Shield Break set up

Glorious.

 

[DanishButrCookies]

Glorious.

For Glorious.

 

[JAZZ_]

I was dinking around with a sandbag and found that while sprinting i could reverse my direction before a jump into an immediate rising bair, hit the bag, then move back while landing for space, followed by an immediate turnaround CS once iIlanded. Is this viable for shield breaking as well? I know I was hitting a sandbag but I just did it in training mode against Ike.

 

[Xygonn]

I was dinking around with a sandbag and found that while sprinting i could reverse my direction before a jump into an immediate rising bair, hit the bag, then move back while landing for space, followed by an immediate turnaround CS once iIlanded. Is this viable for shield breaking as well? I know I was hitting a sandbag but I just did it in training mode against Ike.

Yes, on a RAR SH bair you get your first actionable frame before landing and can start the reverse CS before landing. With a fresh CS and bair (sweetspotted) this is a shield break. Most opponents won't sit in shield after taking a bair though.

 

[samosa]

Bomb to both hits d-smash seems to be a shield breaker.
both hits bomb for 21 damage + both hits of downsmash for 22 damage.

https://vine.co/v/ieuYEYHzIIi
https://vine.co/v/iez1u5Z5M9w

 

[Xygonn]

Bomb to both hits d-smash seems to be a shield breaker.
both hits bomb for 21 damage + both hits of downsmash for 22 damage.

https://vine.co/v/ieuYEYHzIIi
https://vine.co/v/iez1u5Z5M9w

Yeah, but they have to be holding shield just a little bit extra, or you need bomb and Dsmash to be fresh. Any 41 damage shield break isn't gonna be super reliable. It's a good catch though, and I didn't have it mentioned before in this thread.