Samus' Frame Data [Deleted]

[DungeonMaster]

I went into training mode just then and pulled off the combo you just described on my third try.

Any video of you fighting online anywhere? If you can do that on your third try, I want to see what you do in general. Not calling you out, I really want to see. With that kind of controller skill, I really do want to see.
That is an insanely hard combo to get the computer to register in the combo counter with 3 actions that cannot be more than 2 frames off. If your Samus is that close to frame perfect, kudos man, I'd love to see more. In fact we all would.

 

[kenniky]

Hi there

Just because a character's bad doesn't mean they're difficult

Have some food for thought

Any video of you fighting online anywhere? If you can do that on your third try, I want to see what you do in general. Not calling you out, I really want to see. With that kind of controller skill, I really do want to see.
That is an insanely hard combo to get the computer to register in the combo counter with 3 actions that cannot be more than 2 frames off. If your Samus is that close to frame perfect, kudos man, I'd love to see more. In fact we all would.

He's rated 7th in his region, I believe

 

[DungeonMaster]

He's rated 7th in his region, I believe

Would that be tag name "Fool"? The Samus player from Australia ranked 7th (does not use Samus competitively)? I can't find much online, it's a popular tag.

 

[kenniky]

Would that be tag name "Fool"? The Samus player from Australia ranked 7th (does not use Samus competitively)? I can't find much online, it's a popular tag.

http://smashboards.com/threads/smash-4-power-rankings-directory-project.401710/

 

[DungeonMaster]

Sheik and bowser player (I quite respect Bowser players). I can't find a single replay, highlight video or anything though. I searched through all those Queensland tournaments for footage.

 

[Fluidityt]

I fell out of my chair when I saw that shiek's difficulty was near maxed. This guy is too funny. And falcon easier than Mac? Where do you come up with this stuff... LOL

A good character that can be maximized by a high skill-cap DOES NOT make the character "difficult." Sorry. When someone can pick up and play a character that isn't their main/secondary/funsies, and can pull out wins / near wins, it's not a 'difficult' character. Any low-level smasher can win with Shiek with very little controller time. I challenge a low-level smasher to win with Samus, Lucina, etc, to do the same.

 

[Berserker.]

The stats in the frame data aren't even important. I don't know why you guys bother with (pretty much) the least important part of that frame data page.

 

[Afro Smash]

Because if it's going to be included it may as well be correct

 

[Berserker.]

If I were you, I wouldn't try to waste my time on it. It's not gonna change anything either way.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

If I were you, I wouldn't try to waste my time on it. It's not gonna change anything either way.

I already changed it.

 

[Berserker.]

I already changed it.

Oh, my B lol

 

[Afro Smash]

I knew that's what it would be lol, also I saw Shulk was rated as more difficult than Rosalina.. I'm not looking for a change as long as Shulk's max difficulty rating can be justified

 

[MegaRiff]

When I saw the difficulty rating I also was taken aback. I felt a bit insulted to be honest. I also noticed everyone else here feels the same way.

I think perhaps you could use a different method to describe this "difficulty" rating you are trying to establish. Maybe you could use something like "tournament viability" or "learning curve" or "depth."

 

[Xygonn]

I already changed it.

And that's what happens when people birch to people that make great free content. *sigh*

 

[DungeonMaster]

LOL!

I think we're all still having fun, and it's not at an angry level of antagonism, that is pretty troll and he knows it. We are in fact quite a friendly bunch of dediicated Samus mains and we're all happy @ KuroganeHammer went to the trouble of making his website and data.
Thank you again, incidentally, and I will check your numbers in a cross check in a few places.

On the flip-side, we don't like to be kicked when we're down, that's pretty obvious. People have spent a lot of time developing a lot of meta, and waving that away is yes, a bit insulting.
Now I'm not a pro in this game, I make no claim to that. I am a pro at turn based strategy VGAplanets, I am the first Emperor of VGANu, which means I can kill off 10 other top ranked players simultaneously: http://planets.nu/ feel free to PM me anytime.
I am also a competitive sword fighter and have been training for over 15 years. I'm going to compete this July at this tournament: http://www.fightlongpoint.com/ and if you or anyone is so inclined, by all means come lock steel with me in a friendly yet highly competitive environment. You will lose.
So, I do know a little about complexity, fighting, and competition.

I'm very impressed by the pros in smash. When I see things like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=JMF2M46q9rs#t=382
and this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2EV0wFvYO8
and I know that trump can be combined with a CS and I personally find that hard to do. As in really difficult.
I also find hard going from hanging on the ledge to a stage cancelled f-air which has a few frames towards failure by incurring landing lag, followed by an instant dash at most a 4 frames buffer from landing, followed by an up-air which has to be positioned clipping just right the character model, followed by a forward jumping aerial charge shot which cannot be buffered, since special takes precedence over jump, essentially 1 frame and the stick must return to neutral to get the CS. I find that really quite hard.

So, Aerodrome, I am going to call you out on this one. Let's see some video proof of you pulling off that combo in training mode, in honor of Lucas coming out I want to see it done on Ness and have the combo register on the counter. 3 tries right? Should be done by noon right?
I'd also like to see you pull of in a real match a tether trump like Nairo but with a reverse charge shot. Ball is in your court. Pros vs. Joes and the Joes want some proof.
If you do it, I'll definitely link them in the combo and compendium threads for all the Samus mains to see a level which we can aspire to.

 

[Afro Smash]

Being free doesn't make you free from critique, the website is appreciated, but if the ratings are arbitrary then don't have them, or if they're wrong then adjust them. We're 2 pages in to this thread and Shulk's max difficulty rating still hasn't been explained

 

[Fluidityt]

And that's what happens when people birch to people that make great free content. *sigh*

Price is regardless. His goal was to make an accurate guide.

This thread is a joke now.

Thanks for the frame data. Your opinion on difficulty has been noted and filed properly where it belongs: the rubbish bin.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Just a note that I probably won't be updating this data for any incoming patches, and I won't be researching anything Samus related from this point on. I'm not obligated to do anything for a rude userbase. All the other people I've dealt with in frame data topics have been extremely nice and polite; this one, not so much.

I'm not looking for a change as long as Shulk's max difficulty rating can be justified

The character is perceived by most top players to be the most indepth/difficult to use character. Even ZeRo himself acknowledges Shulk to be one of the hardest characters to master and play effectively because of the sheer amount of tech and swapping and changing needed between art modes. Knowing which is the optimal art for the situation isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, and constantly changing arts for MAALC can be quite taxing.

When I saw the difficulty rating I also was taken aback. I felt a bit insulted to be honest. I also noticed everyone else here feels the same way.
I think perhaps you could use a different method to describe this "difficulty" rating you are trying to establish. Maybe you could use something like "tournament viability" or "learning curve" or "depth."

It originally was 7/10, which I suppose if I had to designate it would be "hard". I changed it to 1/10 after because I thought it would be amusing, not because I think she's that braindead.

This thread is a joke now.

Yes, it is. In fact, I made up all these numbers as a joke, because I thought it would be funny to pretend I know what I'm doing.

Your opinion on difficulty has been noted and filed properly where it belongs: the rubbish bin.

I'm feeding you my guide?

 

[Afro Smash]

Well not updating the guide is more likely to punish the mains of other characters than us, since we're more likely to know that stuff already. But thanks for explaining why Shulk's difficulty is high

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Well not updating the guide is more likely to punish the mains of other characters than us, since we're more likely to know that stuff already.

You say this like Samus is a prominent tournament threat.

 

[Afro Smash]

You say this like Samus is a prominent tournament threat.

Actually nothing in what I said insinuated that in anyway, all I said was people who main Samus are more likely to know her frame data. But you can keep being embarassingly salty if you want

 

[Fluidityt]

Just a note that I probably won't be updating this data for any incoming patches, and I won't be researching anything Samus related from this point on. I'm not obligated to do anything for a rude userbase. All the other people I've dealt with in frame data topics have been extremely nice and polite; this one, not so much.

The character is perceived by most top players to be the most indepth/difficult to use character. Even ZeRo himself acknowledges Shulk to be one of the hardest characters to master and play effectively because of the sheer amount of tech and swapping and changing needed between art modes. Knowing which is the optimal art for the situation isn't as easy as you seem to think it is, and constantly changing arts for MAALC can be quite taxing.

It originally was 7/10, which I suppose if I had to designate it would be "hard". I changed it to 1/10 after because I thought it would be amusing, not because I think she's that braindead.

Yes, it is. In fact, I made up all these numbers as a joke, because I thought it would be funny to pretend I know what I'm doing.

I'm feeding you my guide?

not trying to troll or flame. but you made a mistake concerning difficulty (not necessarily regarding Samus, but other chars), as everyone on the forum has told you. Either you are a god, or we are all stupid noobs. Instead of correcting your mistake, or expanding / renaming the 'difficulty' metric to something more nuanced and informative, since more than 1 thing goes into such a rating, you trolled us by putting her as the lowest / one of the lowest difficulty ratings. Seems childish.

Your time and effort are appreciated; however, this does not shield you from constructive criticism, and your status as a player does not make you infallible. Your continued support in the future would as well be appreciated. Or you could continue to act childish and specifically rule us out because #1, we called out your metrics, and #2, we retaliated when you trolled us with the lowered rating.

My rubbish bin / joke reference was to the 1/10 difficulty rating, not the rest of the guide which was very well done and informative.



Thank you sir / madam. Peace and blessings to you,
-Fluid

Well not updating the guide is more likely to punish the mains of other characters than us, since we're more likely to know that stuff already. But thanks for explaining why Shulk's difficulty is high

Having a high skill cap ("difficult to master") doesn't make a character difficult; it adds to it. Being a good character, detracts from difficulty. The same as a character being bad doesn't make a character difficult. The key here is defining difficult: Winning with a bad character is more difficult than winning with a good character that has a high skill cap. Shiek does not need an expert player to do well with; she is not difficult for a newcomer to come along and rack up damage and kills. Her raw stats offset any difficulty that can be had from being able to "master" all of her potential.

Bad characters not only have to master their character, but then must master every nuance of the game in order to survive and do damage vs a superior frame data character. In other words, they must "outplay" their opponent. So to think that Lucina is an "easy" character simply because mastering her abilities is easy, is a rather narrow viewpoint.

Difficulty is not just how easy it is to play a character (how strong the char is), or play a character to their best abilities (how many ATs, combos, matchups you need to know), but also how hard it is to win with the character vs the rest of the cast (how you put it all together).

Tell Zero to win Evo with Samus or Lucina (or any of the other garbage characters), and then ask him if he thinks that will be more difficult than with Shiek.

That is why the difficulty rating should be more nuanced than what was put

 

[MegaRiff]

It originally was 7/10, which I suppose if I had to designate it would be "hard". I changed it to 1/10 after because I thought it would be amusing, not because I think she's that braindead.

Oh I see. I missed that part. Well, thanks for doing something nobody asked you to do. I appreciate it.

 

[evmaxy54]

Actually nothing in what I said insinuated that in anyway, all I said was people who main Samus are more likely to know her frame data. But you can keep being embarassingly salty if you want

Says the person who got real pissy with one section of a bar chart being a bit lower than he wanted it to be

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Says the person who got real pissy with one section of a bar chart being a bit lower than he wanted it to be

Hold that thought. I just went back and reread all of Afro Smash's responses and saw nothing but maturity and sober responses, which is simply consistent with his personally. I dare you to try to cite a piece of his text that suggests otherwise.

 

[Depth_]

Chill Guize. Professionalism.

 

[evmaxy54]

Hold that thought. I just went back and reread all of Afro Smash's responses and saw nothing but maturity and sober responses, which is simply consistent with his personally. I dare you to try to cite a piece of his text that suggests otherwise.

I would agree if he didn't spend such a time arguing over a very insignificant thing like a difficulty barchart, which although is somewhat subjective but based around facts about the character, where no-one is disagreeing that Samus is a difficult character to use (after all Aero did give her a 7/10 initially). With how slight it is it almost comes off as him whinging over semantics really.

 

[-_ellipsis_-]

Didn't come off as whining at all. He had a question that unfortunately he had to repeat several times in order to get an answer worth anyone's time. Besides, his tone was encouraging a healthy debate, which advances understanding and is valued highly.

 

[Hark17ball]

Personally I like to think it as over filling the bar so it actually means 11/10.

 

[Afro Smash]

I'm still waiting on these citations @ evmaxy54

 

[DungeonMaster]

Let's focus on the main issue which remains to this moment: Aerodrome is providing data but with personal opinion mixed into what should be impartial. After querying the opinions of the people who actually play and know the character, he refused to change that portion which is subjective - and that is the first thing you see when you load this thread.
I could for instance go to the Sheik boards and write up all the true combos for Shiek. Attached to that good information I could make a pile of personal comments such as "this isn't actually a true combo, people think they're skilled by doing this but reality is they are not" and title my true combo thread "Really bad game design 101: the complete Shiek combo and string list". While the information contained within would certainly be appreciated, the personal appraisal would not, and would certainly ruffle a few feathers so to speak.

Something needs to budge, the thread should be left to drift away and die somewhere in the bowels of the forum or Aerodrome listens and accepts our (well reasoned) opinions on the subjective matter. Otherwise you're likely going to get every new Samus main who joins the forum for the next many years open this thread and complain.
My final word on this matter: I listen and appreciate top player's opinions, that doesn't mean I share them, and I don't want those opinions with my data.

 

[leiraD]

Chill Guize. Professionalism.

^this

 

[DungeonMaster]

Hey @ KuroganeHammer can you and the Samus mains make peace? Everyone had a few weeks to chill out?
Because we could actually use a good frame data thread and people are collecting useful info. I plan on adding some soon as well. If you're still insistent on not updating, and not modifying your front-and-centre picture to something more appropriate we may need to contact a mod to get this un-stickied.
Olive branch tended out.

 

[Hapajin]

I just want to make an observation that the Samus mains here have been very respectful and patient with their critiques. In contrast, if you look at the PM Samus boards, someone who posts some "questionable" information or guides concerning Samus is shot down and trashed quite swiftly. No need to get defensive so quickly, there are much harsher people out there. Nice to see Samus mains here trying to facilitate some actual discussion.

 

[BJN39]

we may need to contact a mod to get this un-stickied.
Olive branch tended out.

Hi I'm a moderator


This thread shouldn't be unstuck.

Because we could actually use a good frame data thread and people are collecting useful info.

So KuroganeHammer has compiled all of her normals and most of her specials into an easy-access, visually easy to understand and thorough data source for Samus, who originally HAD no data out there on SWF iirc, and that isn't good enough? That's what this phrase came off as saying.

I think some people here are too tied up on a simple image of a stat table, and are starting to come off as a little ungrateful for this easy-access data.

Think of this: If you were walking down the street, and you saw a 100% abandoned 100 dollar bill, you wouldn't just scoff it off as "Not good" because one of its corners was bent. You'd pick it up and take it, and be 100 dollars richer.

The same thing can go for this data. You've been handed 100 dollars (Symbolic for the wealth of having data for your char.) and because it had a bent corner, you pretty much ask him to give you a better bill.

^This has to do with the argument that Samus deserved an even higher skill stat than 7/10. I'm sorry but like Aero I simply don't agree that Samus is a very difficult to use character, and I've gotten the impression lots of people outside of this thread arguing to have it raised from and already somewhat high 7/10 find that inaccurate as well.

It was already at 7/10 at the time! That's already equivalent to being high/good in whatever regard on these scales.

So in the end he got frustrated and was amused more by the idea of instead crumbling up the dollar and throwing it down and leaing, (1/10 skill change) and now you're threatening to get it out of here. It's (Figuratively) a free 100 dollars.

I'll look into having it restored back to 7/10 and w/e, but I think at this point is it simpler to just ignore one bent edge (That was not even that bad at 7/10) and enjoy the 100 dollars?

 

[MegaRiff]

I'll look into having it restored back to 7/10

Thanks for your understanding. I think all @ DungeonMaster was saying was that it's been a while, we've had time to let the dust settle, and let the grudges wear off. Let's all start over, come to the table with a clean slate and work this out in a professional, courteous and respectful manner. I agree with you in that it was a very tiny detail that got everybody worked up over for no reason at all, and the most important information (which I've used and thank you) was mostly ignored in the heat of the moment. And I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we'd like to mend fences, put this dirty water under the bridge and move forward. So that's what we'd like to do.

 

[Afro Smash]

There was never any dispute that the data wasn't appreciated, it was, but if you claim know more about a character that you've likely put limited time in to compared to people who've mained her for months they're bound to get defensive (note I personally didn't) and kuroganes actions of changing it to 1/10 and threatening to never update, punishing the many because of the few, was hardly justified. But yes, both sides were at fault, so just moving on would be best at this point.

 

[Neldy09]

Edit: upon further review of the board, have removed my comment.

 

[SpottedCerberus]

Ahhh. I was wondering why Samus had a lower difficulty stat than Captain Braindead. I see. Like most things in the Smash community, it was a direct product of salt. Fair enough.

 

[Morbi]

Ahhh. I was wondering why Samus had a lower difficulty stat than Captain Braindead. I see. Like most things in the Smash community, it was a direct product of salt. Fair enough.

Indeed. I just picked up Samus and decided to check out her frame data and the difficulty stat caught my eye. I was confused. There is always a (sort of) reasonable explantion.