Sakurai talks about Clones in Famitsu column

[Jucchan]

http://nintendoeverything.com/sakurai-on-the-clone-characters-in-smash-bros-wii-u3ds/

Super Smash Bros. for Wii U and 3DS contain a few “clone characters” like previous entries in the series. In his latest Famitsu column, director Masahiro Sakurai explains how they were decided.

Sakurai started out with the following:

There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics. Since their functionality had differences, forms were separated from each other. However, it was vital that this didn’t increase the required man-hours. Some relative tuning was sufficient as it wasn’t necessary to create balancing from scratch.​

Sakurai goes on to say that Lucina and Marth have different sword properties. While Dark Pit and Pit are the same, making Dark Pit a separate character was required in order to give him “his unique arm and Final Smash”. And as far as Dr. Mario is concerned, the team felt “old Dr. Mario fans would not agree to Dr. Mario being the same as Mario, so we went on to give him a unique customizable set.”

Sakurai next draws an interesting – if not a bit strange – analogy between eating out at restaurants and the clone characters in Smash Bros.:

This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat dish!!”​

Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped.​

Lastly, Sakurai ends his response with the following:

Could you please leave it to me to select [characters] with man-hours and costs in mind? However you look at it, the game is a great bargain buy as a result.
​

Personally, I'm with Sakurai on this one, but what are your thoughts on this?

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Clones should only be added in when all the planned characters are in, to reduce complaints from the fans. I wouldn't be complaining much about the clones if was playable in the game.

 

[LancerStaff]

If you don't mind, there's about 100 people I need to say "told you so" to.

 

[IceAnt573]

Clones should only be added in when all the planned characters are in, to reduce complaints from the fans. I wouldn't be complaining much about the clones if was playable in the game.

Based off this sentence "There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics.", that's exactly what happened.

Forgive me if I miss a comment by Sakurai that said Wolf was planned to be in.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Based off this sentence "There are 3 fighters [Lucina, Dark Pit, and Doctor Mario] that are alternate models (clones) in the game. Each was originally a color variation, but during development, they were given balanced characteristics.", that's exactly what happened.

Forgive me if I miss a comment by Sakurai that said Wolf was planned to be in.

I'm just giving an example. Look at how many people are upset that clones made it in, but Ridley Krool didn't. People would be less upset if the clones were just alts instead of their own playable characters. That way the exclusion of their main or most wanted wouldn't be as painful.

 

[PeterJude]

Clones should only be added in when all the planned characters are in, to reduce complaints from the fans. I wouldn't be complaining much about the clones if was playable in the game.

Again, his comments suggest that the clones took no additional time, and nothing like a whole new character. Wolf was likely cut before the alts for these characters were even thought about.

It's not a case of Wolf being cut because the time they could have made him was used on them. The characters that Wolf would have been cut "in favour of" are the likes of Little Mac, Rosalina, Robin, Mega Man, Bowser Jr and co., not Dark Pit, Dr Mario and Lucina.

 

[UberMadman]

I'm just giving an example. Look at how many people are upset that clones made it in, but Ridley Krool didn't. People would be less upset if the clones were just alts instead of their own playable characters. That way the exclusion of their main or most wanted wouldn't be as painful.

But just because people are upset about it doesn't mean they're justified in being so. Sakurai specifically states that the clones didn't increase the required man-hours, meaning that they were added bonuses, not replacements. Even if all three of them were cut, you wouldn't have enough development time to create even one more original fighter.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Again, his comments suggest that the clones took no additional time, and nothing like a whole new character. Wolf was likely cut before the alts for these characters were even thought about.

It's not a case of Wolf being cut because the time they could have made him was used on them. The characters that Wolf would have been cut "in favour of" are the likes of Little Mac, Rosalina, Robin, Mega Man, Bowser Jr and co., not Dark Pit, Dr Mario and Lucina.

Just an example on how I feel about the clones. Though if I had to choose a clone I'd choose Blood Falcon. It would've been a far better choice than Dark Pit because a 2nd F- Zero rep ( clone or not) would be welcomed more than a 3rd Kid Icarus rep. Or he could have just been the 4th clone. Who knows.

But just because people are upset about it doesn't mean they're justified in being so. Sakurai specifically states that the clones didn't increase the required man-hours, meaning that they were added bonuses, not replacements. Even if all three of them were cut, you wouldn't have enough development time to create even one more original fighter.

Yeah I guess some people just feel more like the clones are replacements than bonuses. If you had at least all the veterans you played as in previous smash games, you'd probably be OK with the clones, Its when you lose a vet that you turn salty.

 

[PeterJude]

Just an example on how I feel about the clones. Though if I had to choose a clone I'd choose Blood Falcon. It would've been a far better choice than Dark Pit because a 2nd F- Zero rep ( clone or not) would be welcomed more than a 3rd Kid Icarus rep. Or he could have just been the 4th clone. Who knows.

It wasn't a case of "choosing" clones though. They seemed to have decided on at least 11 alts, Dr. Mario, Lucina, Dark Pit, Alph and the Koopa Kids, and from those they decided that they may as well make Dr. Mario, Lucina and Dark Pit full characters (that is, the same as the original with some minor changes). Those were who they chose, they didn't choose Blood Falcon as an alt for whatever reason. It wasn't a case of them thinking about how many "reps" (I seriously don't get the obsession with this) they had, they simply changed a few alts to clones.

 

[Evello]

I'm just giving an example. Look at how many people are upset that clones made it in, but Ridley Krool didn't. People would be less upset if the clones were just alts instead of their own playable characters. That way the exclusion of their main or most wanted wouldn't be as painful.

Sakurai explicitly stated here that there was not enough time to make any unique characters, so why exclude the clones? It changes nothing, except we get fewer characters. I don't follow your logic. And characters like Dr. Mario and Lucina do have many fans, so you're calling for those fans' beloved character to be demoted to a costume just because you and others don't get to play as your favorite characters. That's pretty wrong.

To use his dinner analogy, you ordered a full dinner, but it didn't come with peas, so now you're refusing free dessert because you didn't have peas, despite the fact that the two have nothing to do with each other and some of the people you're dining with really want the dessert. Now you have no peas and no dessert.

Also, because the clones were upgraded from costumes that were already made/planned, the only options for clones were: Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, Alph, and the Koopalings. Apparently they only had spare time for 3 of them. So reasonably the only other clones they could have made was Alph and/or the Koopalings.

 

[AIM0001]

Just an example on how I feel about the clones. Though if I had to choose a clone I'd choose Blood Falcon. It would've been a far better choice than Dark Pit because a 2nd F- Zero rep ( clone or not) would be welcomed more than a 3rd Kid Icarus rep. Or he could have just been the 4th clone. Who knows.


Yeah I guess some people just feel more like the clones are replacements than bonuses. If you had at least all the veterans you played as in previous smash games, you'd probably be OK with the clones, Its when you lose a vet that you turn salty.

What makes that a problem for me personally is the fact Ganondorf has just enough moves that Captain Falcon has to be considered "almost" a 2nd Captain Falcon. You think people are upset with having 2 Pit's? Just imagine the complaints for having 2 Captain Falcons and an additional variation of Cpt. Falcon aka Ganondorf...

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Sakurai explicitly stated here that there was not enough time to make any unique characters, so why exclude the clones? It changes nothing, except we get fewer characters. I don't follow your logic. And characters like Dr. Mario and Lucina do have many fans, so you're calling for those fans' beloved character to be demoted to a costume just because you and others don't get to play as your favorite characters. That's pretty wrong.

To use his dinner analogy, you ordered a full dinner, but it didn't come with peas, so now you're refusing free dessert because you didn't have peas, despite the fact that the two have nothing to do with each other and some of the people you're dining with really want the dessert. Now you have no peas and no dessert.

Also, because the clones were upgraded from costumes that were already made/planned, the only options for clones were: Dr. Mario, Dark Pit, Lucina, Alph, and the Koopalings. Apparently they only had spare time for 3 of them. So reasonably the only other clones they could have made was Alph and/or the Koopalings.

Perhaps I'm just a little salty. Though could have been added. Its that they aren't good enough to justify the losses. Even some of the original newcomers like are a bit questionable too. Maybe it was just the choice of clones. I remeber people asking for Black Shadow to be a clone of Ganondorf. Lets say instead of the clones were Black Shadow, Daisy, or even. would have been welcomed back and Daisy and Black Shadow would truly be playable in smash. isn't as good a choice because it provides more fuel for the Sakurai bias fire. Hopefully DLC can save the day.

 

[shrooby]

"This is like a free dessert after a luxurious meal that was prepared free of charge. In a restaurant with this type of service, I don’t think there’s anybody who would say, “Change this to a meat dish!!”
Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped."

"Yet, I’m told [to do that] about Smash Bros. But, I guess since a lot of them are children, it cannot be helped."
"I guess since a lot of them are children"

I'm slightly offended and amused at the same time.

 

[Kain6th]

He forgot to mention ganondorf, falco, and toon link

 

[MasterOfKnees]

I like it when he pokes at the fanbase, the Smash community is a holier-than-thou unit that really does need to be provoked from time to time.

 

[GLStephen]

Clones should only be added in when all the planned characters are in, to reduce complaints from the fans. I wouldn't be complaining much about the clones if was playable in the game.

wasn't planned

 

[Frostwraith]

This isn't like Melee where they actually made the clones by doing new models and such.

They had 11 character alts they could make clones out of and chose three to become variations of existing characters instead of alts for them.

The assets were already in the game. All that was done was to tweak them a little and give these now-changed costumes their own slot. This didn't take significant development time to have other content scrapped.

And no, they didn't replace Wolf, Lucas or any other character. Such notion can only come from one who's ignorant of the complexities of game development.

 

[StarshipGroove]

You can't really complain about clones, they're added content for a fraction of the development time. If people really want to complain about wastes of space, complain about Ice Climbers wasting development time on Wii U instead of getting rightfully rekt on day one of the development process, for being an atrocious character selection. Dr Mario da bess

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I only question if this website is reliable.

Otherwise, makes perfect sense to me.

Wolf might've been planned. His B moves are custom moves now, or at least Wolf Flash is. If he was cut, it was early in development. But I can see how he found him less important and that Custom moves made him redundant.(obviously the A moves should change this logic, but Sakurai's logic is not identical to every fan's).

 

[Deleted member]

@ Frostwraith
From what I interpret from reading this article and the initial statement regarding Lucina....they already had the tweaks and were separated as a result of said tweaks.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I have found that the idea that clones replace wholly original characters is a particularly incurable disease in this community. You can treat it over and over and over again, even Dr. Sakurai can tell you that the clones are glorified alt costumes, but there's just no cure. So I propose for now on feeding these sick souls dog biscuits and giving them a hearty pat on the head. "Yes, Dr. Mario replaced Ridley. Good doggie. It'll all be over soon."

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Assuming again, this is a reliable source, maybe Dr. Mario was actually a costume during Melee but upgraded since he can't shoot fireballs. In this case, he's an even better choice for the Tornado alone.

 

[Frostwraith]

I only question if this website is reliable.

Otherwise, makes perfect sense to me.

Wolf might've been planned. His B moves are custom moves now, or at least Wolf Flash is. If he was cut, it was early in development. But I can see how he found him less important and that Custom moves made him redundant.(obviously the A moves should change this logic, but Sakurai's logic is not identical to every fan's).

I might think that they had those moves made, but had to scrap the characters for whatever reason (likely due to time constraints). However, since they did have the moves made, they were put as custom moves for Fox. Same goes for Lucas's specials as options for Ness.

If he considers Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina different enough to warrant their own slots, I'm sure as hell he would consider Lucas and Wolf different too, because, after all, that's what they were in Brawl and Sakurai did elaborate on their differences back then.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I might think that they had those moves made, but had to scrap the characters for whatever reason (likely due to time constraints). However, since they did have the moves made, they were put as custom moves for Fox. Same goes for Lucas's specials as options for Ness.

If he considers Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina different enough to warrant their own slots, I'm sure as hell he would consider Lucas and Wolf different too, because, after all, that's what they were in Brawl and Sakurai did elaborate on their differences back then.

Well, Lucas is from a dead series and Japan-only. I can see why he was low priority. In fact, I bet if Mother 3 was properly brought overseas, he would've been back, maybe even over the clones due to taking less development time, being a semi-clone of Ness.

Yeah, poor Wolf, agreed. Those all makes sense to me. DLC is still up in the air for Characters, though. I think Courses have a far better chances of happening. They may be considered way easier to make.

 

[AEMehr]

You can't really complain about clones, they're added content for a fraction of the development time. If people really want to complain about wastes of space, complain about Ice Climbers wasting development time on Wii U instead of getting rightfully rekt on day one of the development process, for being an atrocious character selection. Dr Mario da bess

Harsh words.
Entirely unnecessary too.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I don't really understand why Wolf would be cut, but Falco stays. That makes no sense to me at all. I am guessing it was a character they said, we don't need to put him in now, we'll DLC him later. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Lucas I completely understand. He has a game that will never be released internationally, so they don't really want to keep reminding those fanbases that Lucas is a thing. I was a Lucas main too, but I get it.

Harsh words.
Entirely unnecessary too.

I don't agree with his reasoning or the vitriol but I don't miss the Ice Climbers at all either. Any character that breaks the rules like that, I generally don't care for. Chain grabs were the drum solos of competitive Smash. I don't really see how they have much of a purpose without them.

 

[FalKoopa]

Extending the clone argument to Lucas and Wolf, would it have been a good idea to make them palette swaps like Alph? It could really have worked out, as their specials are included in the custom moves of Ness and Fox.

 

[Frostwraith]

@ Frostwraith
From what I interpret from reading this article and the initial statement regarding Lucina....they already had the tweaks and were separated as a result of said tweaks.

You're right.

They tweaked those characters when they were costumes, but given they would mess up play records (statistical flukes and all that due to being technically different), they were given separate slots.

I don't really understand why Wolf would be cut, but Falco stays. That makes no sense to me at all. I am guessing it was a character they said, we don't need to put him in now, we'll DLC him later. That's the only thing that makes sense to me.

Lucas I completely understand. He has a game that will never be released internationally, so they don't really want to keep reminding those fanbases that Lucas is a thing. I was a Lucas main too, but I get it.

As far as I know, Falco is more popular, so he took precedence.

Extending the clone argument to Lucas and Wolf, would it have been a good idea to make them palette swaps like Alph? It could really have worked out, as their specials are included in the custom moves of Ness and Fox.

The matter is that Lucas and Ness, as well as Fox and Wolf, have quite different A moves, so such a solution could be seen as a downgrade.

Ness with Lucas's specials =/= Lucas
Fox with Wolf's specials =/= Wolf

I don't consider Lucas and Wolf clones, given how different many of their attacks are. Even the specials have significant differences.

Comparing Lucas and Wolf to Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina is utter foolishness.

 

[FalKoopa]

The matter is that Lucas and Ness, as well as Fox and Wolf, have quite different A moves, so such a solution could be seen as a downgrade.

Ness with Lucas's specials =/= Lucas
Fox with Wolf's specials =/= Wolf

I don't consider Lucas and Wolf clones, given how different many of their attacks are. Even the specials have significant differences.

Comparing Lucas and Wolf to Dr. Mario, Dark Pit and Lucina is utter foolishness.

Still, a downgrade is much better alternative to an outright cut, and you can't deny that it would have reduced a lot of complaints.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

However, to be fair, Ness' A moves were buffed by incorporating Lucas' style(some of them at least). He I would be okay with. It works. Just remodel his old moves to have the animations from Brawl without changing the hitboxes/etc. Wolf just does not work at all.

I'd much rather Lucas became his own guy again, but he's not as bad as trying to make Wolf an alt.

 

[InfiniteTripping]

I think Lucas was eliminated in the purge of all Mother 3 references in general. Lucas will never return to a Smash game under any circumstances. Nintendo jokingly killed a man during their E3 Direct for even mentioning Mother 3... but that isn't that exaggerated from the attitude they have towards Mother 3's international release. Its themes of anti-consumerism, the drug references and the gender bending elements, all involving children... this flies in Japan but it's just not a game that they want to even attempt to market to an international audience.

And as for Wolf coming back as an alt costume... imagine what that would have done to the "Wolf is a clone" arguments. It would have fanned them even more. I'm glad we dodged a bullet there. I'd be willing to bet money Wolf will be future DLC.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas and Wolf were both initially designed as 2.0's of Ness and Fox before being reworked for the sake of variety, so the idea isn't that out there.

Heck, Wolf even has unused animations that are direct copies of Fox's (such as the rapid kick attack), and actually uses some copied animations (applause, activating Smash Taunt, etc.) in-game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think Lucas was eliminated in the purge of all Mother 3 references in general. Lucas will never return to a Smash game under any circumstances. Nintendo jokingly killed a man during their E3 Direct for even mentioning Mother 3... but that isn't that exaggerated from the attitude they have towards Mother 3's international release. Its themes of anti-consumerism, the drug references and the gender bending elements, all involving children... this flies in Japan but it's just not a game that they want to even attempt to market to an international audience.

And as for Wolf coming back as an alt costume... imagine what that would have done to the "Wolf is a clone" arguments. It would have fanned them even more. I'm glad we dodged a bullet there. I'd be willing to bet money Wolf will be future DLC.

Having Lucas playable does not make every other Mother 3 reference notable. The Drug Store is in Onett, a stage that never left the series since its introduction in Melee. And may be on the Wii U version. So that's not even true.

Lucas may well be an alt/DLC character. Please stop exaggerating so much. It's looking more like Mother 3 hatred than an actual realistic scenario.

Wolf may be as well, but he's not guaranteed whatsoever. Him being an alt is very unlikely, no matter what he started as. If Dr. Mario was one during Melee, he outright proves that once a slot, always a slot. If you're in the game at all. It can changed, of course, but it does show it's the more likely option.

 

[Vintage Creep]

LOL he sounds so frustrated. You jelly, Sakurai?

 

[InfiniteTripping]

Having Lucas playable does not make every other Mother 3 reference notable. The Drug Store is in Onett, a stage that never left the series since its introduction in Melee. And may be on the Wii U version. So that's not even true.

Lucas may well be an alt/DLC character. Please stop exaggerating so much. It's looking more like Mother 3 hatred than an actual realistic scenario.

Wolf may be as well, but he's not guaranteed whatsoever. Him being an alt is very unlikely, no matter what he started as. If Dr. Mario was one during Melee, he outright proves that once a slot, always a slot. If you're in the game at all. It can changed, of course, but it does show it's the more likely option.

I don't really get your point about the Drug Store in Onett (that is from EarthBound not Mother 3) but I don't hate Mother 3, it is one of my favorite games of all time. Please don't jump to conclusions. But even though I love the game, I can see exactly why Nintendo doesn't want to release it internationally. For one thing, it deals with a lot of adult themes and the protagonists are children, which presents a lot of potential problems. And another thing, EarthBound was a failure in its international release and Nintendo is not looking to bring out a game with a lot of controversial themes and ideas, only for it to be a financial failure.

I mean, you have to admit. There's not even a Lucas trophy in the game. The Franklin badge is the only Mother 3 thing in the game now, and that was also in EarthBound and it is credited to EarthBound so it doesn't really count. The game was wiped clean. They may add New Pork City (god I hope not) or some Mother 3 stuff to the Wii U version but since Mother 3 was the handheld Mother game, and Sakurai has said that he wants to keep the handheld stuff on the handheld Smash and the console stuff on the Smash console, it seems pretty far-fetched to expect Mother 3 will get anything new.

 

[LordVacation]

His reason for not having Dark Pit be a clone is his final smash...?
Heh...

 

[Vintage Creep]

There is a Lucas trophy, and even Porky Statue (the one from Brawl), but I don't know if it's from Mother 3. I agree with Sakurai's logic to focus on the first title in the franchise. Not only Magicant is the best Earthbound stage ever in Smash Bros. (except for Flying Man ugh) it makes more sense.

 

[Vintage Creep]

His reason for not having Dark Pit be a clone is his final smash...?
Heh...

Which is a clone of Zelda's and Sheik's final smash anyway.
Seriously I like Sakurai but when he tries to justify his reasons he comes out as completely moronic to say the least.
We didn't make cutscenes because Youtube!
Ice Climbers aren't playable on WiiU because 3DS!
Dr. Mario is not a skin because he jumps lower! Completely different character!
There is no Mewtwo because it's hard to port things from Melee! But characters are made completely FROM SCRATCH by the way!

 

[LordVacation]

Which is a clone of Zelda's and Sheik's final smash anyway.
Seriously I like Sakurai but when he tries to justify his reasons he comes out as completely moronic to say the least.
We didn't make cutscenes because Youtube!
Ice Climbers aren't playable on WiiU because 3DS!
Dr. Mario is not a skin because he jumps lower! Completely different character!
There is no Mewtwo because it's hard to port things from Melee! But characters are made completely FROM SCRATCH by the way!

Yeah, really.

I'd respect the dude more if he was just open about everything, he seems afraid to step on any toes.

 

[NinjaWaddleDee]

@ the people wondering why Falco is still in but not Wolf. Falco has been a regular since Melee, and realistically, I think more fans would be angry that HE wasn't in over Wolf. Yes, Wolf is a great character, and a villain character. (we all know smash needs more villians.) Falco has appeared more in the Star Fox series than Wolf though too. Think of it this way, Wolf is kind of like the Meta Knight to Fox's Kirby. He only appears a couple times to challenge fox, then goes away. Falco is like red Kirby in kirby and the amazing mirror. (poor analogy) He is mostly with the main character for the whole game. Now which one is more important? A character who travels with the main character for most of the game, or a character who appears maybe once or twice in the whole game?