Sakurai says there's no favoritism

[TMNTSSB4]

Aside from what was already mentioned, I'm surprised nobody mentioned how almost all of the subspace emissary in Brawl was modeled after the format Kirby games typically use, think about it, that can't be a coincidence on top of Meta Knight being the strongest character in that game.

Kid Icarus, Metal Gear Solid, and Sonic were the only things not really modeled after Kirby. So I guess this means
Brawl: Kirby Territory
Smash 4: Kid Icarus Territory

 

[Nekoo]

People still complain about this ? Geez ... This thread is literally " 10 years old complain about why his daddy bought him 3 game but not 4 Like his brother "
I mean , does this issue Make you hate the game ? All Of the character have ton Of love in them , they respect the original material , the game they come from . I don't care about "muh 3 Kid Icarus Slot , lol bias" IT'S only 3/53 character ! For the object ? They work perfectly in smash . Why people just can't have fun without complain about pointless thing

 

[TMNTSSB4]

People still complain about this ? Geez ... This thread is literally " 10 years old complain about why his daddy bought him 3 game but not 4 Like his brother "
I mean , does this issue Make you hate the game ? All Of the character have ton Of love in them , they respect the original material , the game they come from . I don't care about "muh 3 Kid Icarus Slot , lol bias" IT'S only 3/53 character ! For the object ? They work perfectly in smash . Why people just can't have fun without complain about pointless thing

You're complaining right now, so no reason to call others babies for how they feel about something, unless they're a troll.

 

[Nekoo]

You're complaining right now, so no reason to call others babies for how they feel about something, unless they're a troll.

Come Hawn ...
Since Brawl we have those stupid discussion about " Muh Bias " . Here the man say there no favoritism and people still mad ? If there was bias his character will be Top-tiers boys . Yes i call other babies , because those person react like it was the worst thing in the universe and act like the game is called " Kid Icarus Bros : Kirby Edition" . People complain for Nothing , it always be the same in the smash community . "Muh Diddy op , Muh Rosalina Op , Muh Nerf Greninja , Muh too edgy for me d4rk P1t" .

We have a game , the man continue to work in this game even after it's out , he do his best to gave us the most perfect Smash and yet people complain for 2 NEWCOMER out of 55 character, Items that work perfectly in smash and what ? 2 stages ?

Kid Icarus isn't even his series he only do one game AND Pit was in Brawl before Uprising was even a thing , his only series is Kirby and yet people claim there Bias ?

People are just mad because their character don't make it , that's all .

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Come Hawn ...
Since Brawl we have those stupid discussion about " Muh Bias " . Here the man say there no favoritism and people still mad ? If there was bias his character will be Top-tiers boys . Yes i call other babies , because those person react like it was the worst thing in the universe and act like the game is called " Kid Icarus Bros : Kirby Edition" . People complain for Nothing , it always be the same in the smash community . "Muh Diddy op , Muh Rosalina Op , Muh Nerf Greninja , Muh too edgy for me d4rk P1t" .

We have a game , the man continue to work in this game even after it's out , he do his best to gave us the most perfect Smash and yet people complain for 2 NEWCOMER out of 55 character, Items that work perfectly in smash and what ? 2 stages ?

Kid Icarus isn't even his series he only do one game AND Pit was in Brawl before Uprising was even a thing , his only series is Kirby and yet people claim there Bias ?

People are just mad because their character don't make it , that's all .

Kid Icarus has the most amount of enemies in Smash Run, has some of the best remixes, one of the most amount of trophies, and has 3 new stages(just like Fire Emblem). Also, how would you feel if one of your characters were cut from Smash?

 

[Nekoo]

Kid Icarus has the most amount of enemies in Smash Run, has some of the best remixes, one of the most amount of trophies, and has 3 new stages(just like Fire Emblem). Also, how would you feel if one of your characters were cut from Smash?

Best Remixes ? Megaman have the most hypest remix of all time .

Roy was cut from Smash , Snake same , Mewtwo same . But i don't cry like other .

You have to stay strong , and still support your character , don't say bias when there'not .

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Best Remixes ? Megaman have the most hypest remix of all time .

Roy was cut from Smash , Snake same , Mewtwo same . But i don't cry like other .

You have to stay strong , and still support your character , don't say bias when there'not .

1. I said some, not all.
2. Considering all my characters never been cut, I'm alright.
3. It would be either most hype or hypest, not most hypest.

 

[Nekoo]

1. I said some, not all.
2. Considering all my characters never been cut, I'm alright.
3. It would be either most hype or hypest, not most hypest.

Then for you , Just having ennemies in a minnor mode( were he said he just reused assest ) , trophy and 3 new stages is Bias ?

Every had the same amount of love , i don't understand how you can clearly say there bias .
Go back to GameFag please .

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Sakurai will never admit his bias. He'll take it to the grave with him. But look at the facts, he gives all of HIS characters (except for Palutena) multiple jumps with great recoveries. Pit (4), Dark Pit (4), Kirby (6), DeDeDe (5), and Meta Knight (6) all get X hops (the number next to their name) + a recovery. The only other character who gets multiple jumps (Jigglypuff) gets 6 jumps, and no recovery. But that's not as bad as what he did to Charizard...Gave him only three jumps (rather small at that) and a pathetic recovery. So he makes DeDeDe heavier (DeDeDe @ 119, Charizard @ 115), get more jumps (DeDeDe @ 5, Charizard @ 3), and a better recovery? Because logic. He made it practically impossible to gimp five out of the six of his characters, due to their flying properties, but screwed over Charizard, another flier.

Honestly, this post just started out silly. I know that people call Sakurai bias for several reasons but are you seriously pinning him down for the multiple jumps on his characters?
Look at those characters you mentioned, then look at the rest of the cast. Almost nobody else have aerodynamic capabilities when compared to the angels and the air balloons, so it is not a matter of bias but because it makes sense. If you are going to blame him for this then you might as well blame the creators of all the other characters for not designing them with wings.
It is not even legit criticism but petty whining.
#everythingisaconspiracy.

 

[---]

Tone it down guys. This is getting into borderline flaming territory.


Only real bias I would give is the lack of Post Kirby Super Star content. Totally should have gotten something from Epic Yarn or RtDL than TGCO on the Wii U version. Uprising definitely has a huge influence on the 3DS version, but I think that was to be expected.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Then for you , Just having ennemies in a minnor mode( were he said he just reused assest ) , trophy and 3 new stages is Bias ?

Every had the same amount of love , i don't understand how you can clearly say there bias .
Go back to GameFag please .

1. What I said is just a few things out of alot of stuff.
2. It's enimies and minor, not ennemies and minnor.
3. Are you really gonna start calling other websites names? Plus, it's funny how you think I go there alot, kinda sad.

Tone it down guys. This is getting into borderline flaming territory.


Only real bias I would give is the lack of Post Kirby Super Star content. Totally should have gotten something from Epic Yarn or RtDL than TGCO on the Wii U version. Uprising definitely has a huge influence on the 3DS version, but I think that was to be expected.

Kid Icarus has the Palutena's Guidance on the Wii U version and more Viridi. Seems like KI somewhat had a huge influence on the Wii U version. Also, I don't think this thread will tone down. Plus, cool MegaMan profile pic.

 

[Zerp]

Is there anything actually wrong with being slightly upset a character didn't make it in favor of another, especially when it smacks of bias? I don't see how that's really such a bad thing at all.

On topic, I believe Mr. Sakurai, like literally everyone else on the planet, is influenced by his bias, but I think he doesn't filter enough of it out, as for example Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem both have massive amounts of content in the game, while DK doesn't have much at all, which is pretty odd, if were going by popularity or overall importance. It's no secret as to why either, Mr. Sakurai developed Kid Icarus Uprising, and got special thanks in Fire Emblem: Binding Blade. Now, Mr. Sakurai isn't some terrible monster for letting his bias influence him, I wouldn't hold anything against him, but it is quite the nuisance for some of the more neglected series like the aforementioned DK, Metroid, and Modern Kirby. I really hope this corrected by either DLC, or in the next game (probably this one, if it's going to happen), but as long as Mr. Sakurai is the developer, I imagine we'd be seeing Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem get a continuously larger amount of content than I believe they should be getting or are deserving of.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

Is there anything actually wrong with being slightly upset a character didn't make it in favor of another, especially when it smacks of bias? I don't see how that's really such a bad thing at all.

On topic, I believe Mr. Sakurai, like literally everyone else on the planet, is influenced by his bias, but I think he doesn't filter enough of it out, as for example Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem both have massive amounts of content in the game, while DK doesn't have much at all, which is pretty odd, if were going by popularity or overall importance. It's no secret as to why weither, Mr. Sakurai developed Kid Icarus Uprising, and got special thanks in Fire Emblem: Binding Blade. Now, Mr. Sakurai isn't some terrible monster for letting his bias influence him, I wouldn't hold anything against him, but it is quite the nuisance for some of the more neglected series like the aforementioned DK, Metroid, and Modern Kirby. I really hope this corrected by either DLC, or in the next game (probably this one, if it's going to happen), but as long as Mr. Sakurai is the developer, I imagine we'd be seeing Kid Icarus and Fire Emblem get a continuously larger amount of content than I believe they should be getting or are deserving of.

Yet a chance in getting another Kid Icarus game grows every year.

 

[Deleted member 269706]

Honestly, this post just started out silly. I know that people call Sakurai bias for several reasons but are you seriously pinning him down for the multiple jumps on his characters?
Look at those characters you mentioned, then look at the rest of the cast. Almost nobody else have aerodynamic capabilities when compared to the angels and the air balloons, so it is not a matter of bias but because it makes sense. If you are going to blame him for this then you might as well blame the creators of all the other characters for not designing them with wings.
It is not even legit criticism but petty whining.
#everythingisaconspiracy.

*sigh* once again, it's the advantage that he is giving to his characters. Like it or not, getting more than 2 jumps is an advantage in a game where gimping is a very viable way to get kills. Where exactly is the balance for these things?
Why doesn't Bowser Jr. get that extra hop? Call me out if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Clown Car is capable of flight in the game's that it's been in...And Rosalina can float around and fly in the cannon games that she appears in (and before anyone says it, she doesn't require a warp star). Both ROB and Diddy can freely fly around with their jetpacks and complete tasks while doing so, but in Smash they get nerfed to being only recoveries. And Charizard can freaking fly in his games but he gets ONE extra jump. ONE. There is no justification for that. Call it "silly" if you want, but having those tools to get back on stage are extremely important. If Pit or Meta Knight had to use his Up B in order to get the extra jumps and be able to fly, this wouldn't be a problem, but it's that special treatment that gets under my skin. "MY characters will get these extra jumps for free, other characters will just have them as recoveries!"

And please stay away from the argument which uses the character design from previous games, because Sakurai obviously doesn't respect that either. Ganondorf getting a Captain Falcon moveset? Bowser Jr. not being able to fly in the Clown Car? Koopalings being associated with Shadow Mario for their Final Smash? Alph flying in the Hocotate ship? Fierce Diety Link using the Master Sword? Allowing Robin as a Grandmaster Class to use dark magic? Giving Marth and Lucina the counter ability despite being a Lord class? (The list goes on!) But God forbid Dark Pit using the Sacred Weapons on his character...which confuses me because Pit has a Dark Pit "costume" as one of his skins. Oops, didn't mean to prove MORE bias... :/

Either way, the jumps was just a part of my argument. When you pick someone's argument apart, it seems to be much less structured. My original post had many more points which you have decided to ignore and not respond to for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it was only a fraction of my argument, and I started the post off with such a "silly" argument so I could get into the more backed up facts later in the post.

 

[Nekoo]

1. What I said is just a few things out of alot of stuff.
2. It's enimies and minor, not ennemies and minnor.
3. Are you really gonna start calling other websites names? Plus, it's funny how you think I go there alot, kinda sad.


Kid Icarus has the Palutena's Guidance on the Wii U version and more Viridi. Seems like KI somewhat had a huge influence on the Wii U version. Also, I don't think this thread will tone down. Plus, cool MegaMan profile pic.

1- When you try to correct somebody , don't make a error yourself . I'm a little frenchies , English isn't my native language .
2- You act like somebody from this websites .
3- Why are people complaining about this ? This guys literaly make millions of children dream come true when he create Super Smash Brother and those people complain like spoiled brat .

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Sakurai will never admit his bias. He'll take it to the grave with him. But look at the facts, he gives all of HIS characters (except for Palutena) multiple jumps with great recoveries. Pit (4), Dark Pit (4), Kirby (6), DeDeDe (5), and Meta Knight (6) all get X hops (the number next to their name) + a recovery. The only other character who gets multiple jumps (Jigglypuff) gets 6 jumps, and no recovery. But that's not as bad as what he did to Charizard...Gave him only three jumps (rather small at that) and a pathetic recovery. So he makes DeDeDe heavier (DeDeDe @ 119, Charizard @ 115), get more jumps (DeDeDe @ 5, Charizard @ 3), and a better recovery? Because logic. He made it practically impossible to gimp five out of the six of his characters, due to their flying properties, but screwed over Charizard, another flier.

And I could argue for days about the inclusion of Dark Pit. Hell, if Dark Pit is able to be a fighter, why not Dark Link, or Fierce Diety Link? Why do you bother making a much more unique an stylistic skin for Alph, Wario and Little Mac, but only leave those as alternative skins rather than separate characters? Why give your own character a new slot over everyone else? Wasn't it because Dark Pit wouldn't be canonically correct using the "sacred weapons"? (And then he ended up giving Pit a dark themed skin anyways...) But there's nothing wrong giving Ganondorf a slowed/strengthened version of Falcon's moveset, because that's canonically correct.

And because he hasn't done anything special for Palutena yet, lets just unlock all of her moves from the start. You can struggle to unlock everyone elses, but we'll make it easier for Palutena. (For the sake of this post, I'm going to pretend I don't know about how ridiculous her Smash attacks are). It's just the specific treatment of his characters that annoys me. I feel like so few of the other characters got some sort of "special treatment" in the same way his characters did, but he also disrespected other characters (Charizard and Ganon to name a few), and that really annoys me.

I'll simply end my post with... "All smashers are equal, but some smashers are more equal than others."

Pikachu, Greninja, Lucario, Villager, and now that they can SideB into UpB, Fox and Falco all have great recoveries, I dunno the hell you're talking about

 

[TMNTSSB4]

1- When you try to correct somebody , don't make a error yourself . I'm a little frenchies , English isn't my native language .
2- You act like somebody from this websites .
3- Why are people complaining about this ? This guys literaly make millions of children dream come true when he create Super Smash Brother and those people complain like spoiled brat .

1. Autocorrect, and typed at he last minute due to being busy.
2. The closest thing to gamefaqs I use besides Smashboards is Etika, so don't judge a book by its cover(visible or not).
3. Most gamers don't mean what they say, unless they're a "hardcore" gamer.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

*sigh* once again, it's the advantage that he is giving to his characters. Like it or not, getting more than 2 jumps is an advantage in a game where gimping is a very viable way to get kills. Where exactly is the balance for these things?
Why doesn't Bowser Jr. get that extra hop? Call me out if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Clown Car is capable of flight in the game's that it's been in...And Rosalina can float around and fly in the cannon games that she appears in (and before anyone says it, she doesn't require a warp star). Both ROB and Diddy can freely fly around with their jetpacks and complete tasks while doing so, but in Smash they get nerfed to being only recoveries. And Charizard can freaking fly in his games but he gets ONE extra jump. ONE. There is no justification for that. Call it "silly" if you want, but having those tools to get back on stage are extremely important. If Pit or Meta Knight had to use his Up B in order to get the extra jumps and be able to fly, this wouldn't be a problem, but it's that special treatment that gets under my skin. "MY characters will get these extra jumps for free, other characters will just have them as recoveries!"

And please stay away from the argument which uses the character design from previous games, because Sakurai obviously doesn't respect that either. Ganondorf getting a Captain Falcon moveset? Bowser Jr. not being able to fly in the Clown Car? Koopalings being associated with Shadow Mario for their Final Smash? Alph flying in the Hocotate ship? Fierce Diety Link using the Master Sword? Allowing Robin as a Grandmaster Class to use dark magic? Giving Marth and Lucina the counter ability despite being a Lord class? (The list goes on!) But God forbid Dark Pit using the Sacred Weapons on his character...which confuses me because Pit has a Dark Pit "costume" as one of his skins. Oops, didn't mean to prove MORE bias... :/

Either way, the jumps was just a part of my argument. When you pick someone's argument apart, it seems to be much less structured. My original post had many more points which you have decided to ignore and not respond to for whatever reason, but at the end of the day, it was only a fraction of my argument, and I started the post off with such a "silly" argument so I could get into the more backed up facts later in the post.

Indeed, I decided to ignore the rest of your post because it was merely trivial nitpicking rather than a serious remark.

The multiple jumps matter you keep clinging to is no less silly. Tell me, prior to Smash 4 when there was no "OMG Sakurai bias!" argument, what was the excuse for those characters back then? Why is it rubbing you the wrong way now and not back then?
As I mentioned before, it is because of their aerodynamic abilities that they have those. How many other Nintendo characters do you know that can have multiple jumps like Kirby? Almost nobody else can. Jr. and Rosa can float but that is actually different from hopping in the air and let's not forget to mention that giving someone the ability of permanent flight can potentially become game breaking. You are even bringing Diddy Kong and ROB, of all people, into this. In DK64, Diddy can only have indefinite flight (and even then there is a limit to it) through a special item and not during normal gameplay, something that is already accomplished in Smash but through the Smash Ball, and even then they allowed him to access it any time through his Up B. Plus, in DKCR, Diddy now can normally use the jetpacks during gameplay but only to hover a bit (and to add that Diddy is already too good as he is). And ROB, do I really have to point this out? "can freely fly around", when? how? You must be referring to another robot because I'm sure that a source material where ROB displays the ability of flight does NOT exist.
Charizard is just the bit of the oddball in this case, but his recovery is good this time around thanks to Flare Blitz. I'm also taking from this that you are trying to imply that there is bias against the Mario and Pokemon franchise. Do not even tell me that this franchises are being somehow neglected just because "durr their characters don't have more than one jump".

And please stay away from the argument which uses the character design from previous games, because Sakurai obviously doesn't respect that either.

And this is the part where people need to start using common sense more frequently. Not respecting a character=/=adapting a character into a fighting game. The koopalings are all skins of Bowser Jr. so they obviously have to share a final smash, you seriously don't think that they need to be separated into 7 more slots just for the sake of having a different final smash, do you? Same goes for Alph. As for Fierce Deity Link, you do understand that the helix big sword he uses has a radically different design from the Master Sword which can affect hitboxes so it is obvious why he has to keep it along with the shield. The only valid case you make is Ganondorf which Sakurai doesn't want to change out of subjective reasons; but for the rest of the examples they are just inconsequential and aren't unfaithfully represented.
You have to adapt a character while also being true to the source material, but you gotta use your head as well. Like allowing Mario to only use fire balls with a fire flower power up and make it mutually exclusive with the Super Cape, you would be "faithful" to his games but that would be a stupid decision that would only serve to limit him as a fighter.

The whole rant you are making is just arbitrary and unnecessary. There are more valid reasons you can bring to the table but instead you are choosing to get mad at trivial stuff for the sake of sticking it to the (Saku)man (rebellious phase?). This is why I still think it is just silly and hard to take seriously. I mean, better give everyone else an extra jump to avoid offending you, amirite?

 

[kantoskies]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, I genuinely do not see how Sakurai has a huge Kirby/Kid Icarus bias and I feel like people only say he does because they want yet another reason to hate him. Looking at Smash 4:

• Kirby got 0 newcomers, Kid Icarus got 1.5 (Palutena was definitely justified because she was/is a large part of the Kid Icarus series, is another female fighter which the Smash series desperately needs more of, and had interesting moveset potential, regardless of how good she actually is in the game). I can see why some people are salty over Dark Pit getting in over Alph or something but he's a fine choice (better than having Motorbike Wario and Overalls Wario as two separate characters, that is).
• Kirby got 2 new stages and 2 retro stages, Kid Icarus got 2 new stages and 1 retro stage. That's pretty much average of what most series that had playable characters got (except less than Mario and Zelda)
• A lot of people complain that too many Smash Run enemies came from Uprising but I feel that was done to save time. Of course they're going to want as many enemies as they can put in so if they can directly port them from a recently-released 3DS game they're going to do it

People also like saying that for these two series Sakurai only likes using his games. To be fair, this does kind of apply to the Kirby series, although a bright side to it is that it gives us stages based off older games (when most of the other ones are based off recently-released games and usually look directly-imported from those games graphically). But with Kid Icarus, of course 99% of the new content is going to be based off Uprising. Most series got one new stage apiece this time and Uprising was a no-brainer because a) it's the most recent game in that series and b) it's one of like two (three?) games in the series and the other is an NES games that got its representation in Brawl. Had they done more than one new stage for each non-Mario series then maybe things would have been different.

 

[Deleted member]

I highly disagree with Sakurai and I say that he has bias for his own creations and series that he's worked on.
The bias that he is mentioning is not the one we are referring to. Making the Kid Icarus and Kirby characters not the most powerful ones on the roster isn't equivalent to him not being biased. The bias is, of course, the content these series received, or more accurately for Kirby, the Kirby games Sakurai made.

Kid Icarus: They have the most Smash Run enemies out of any series, even more than Mario. While it has been stated that it was done to reduce costs by reusing assets, it still has a noticeable amount. The amount is honestly very ridiculous in my eyes. Then we have the music, while amazing, Kid Icarus still has a fair share of remixes and it has a lot of songs on the 3DS version. As for stages, Palutena's Temple is by far one of the biggest stages in any Smash game; whether this was the work of bias or not is up for debate really. And, for items, the series has a lot with the eyeball, Back Shield, club, and Drill Arm items. One could debate that Palutena could be seen as a way to show that he is biased, by having a crapton of unique custom moves.
I can't say the Intensity stuff is biased because I am starting to believe that will be a staple in his games.

Sakurai Kirby: Comparatively speaking for Sakurai Kirby and current Kirby, the content is very, very low for current Kirby. Sakurai Kirby has a gigantic stage from a game that Sakurai worked on decades ago while current Kirby didn't get one at all. All of the stages in Smash are from Sakurai made games. The current Kirby games have no presence on the 3DS, outside of a new Final Smash for Kirby. All the current Kirby games got was a few trophies and songs, not even a newcomer. While one could argue that it would have been easier for Sakurai to use his material rather than the newer material, the difference in the amount of content is still glaring and kinda sad, especially when Kirby had some successful releases like Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

All in all, I think the content in Smash is contradictory as to what he claims. I do believe that he is biased for his own work.

 

[TMNTSSB4]

If I was Sakurai, I'd have only Foundation of Dreams, Green Greens(melee), and Dreamland 64 as Kirby stages, while Kid Icarus would have Palutena's Temple, Skyworld, Reset Bomb Forest, and Underworld JUST to annoy the ones who complain alot.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

Sakurai Kirby: Comparatively speaking for Sakurai Kirby and current Kirby, the content is very, very low for current Kirby. Sakurai Kirby has a gigantic stage from a game that Sakurai worked on decades ago while current Kirby didn't get one at all. All of the stages in Smash are from Sakurai made games. The current Kirby games have no presence on the 3DS, outside of a new Final Smash for Kirby. All the current Kirby games got was a few trophies and songs, not even a newcomer. While one could argue that it would have been easier for Sakurai to use his material rather than the newer material, the difference in the amount of content is still glaring and kinda sad, especially when Kirby had some successful releases like Kirby's Return to Dream Land and Kirby's Epic Yarn.

All in all, I think the content in Smash is contradictory as to what he claims. I do believe that he is biased for his own work.

This particular statement. I don't understand this cherry picking attitude within a particular franchise. Why are we assuming that there is a bias against some in games in particular just because they don't have a ton of content? And why are we even unnecessarily categorizing content that belongs together in the first place?
Of all the series you can talk about, the Kirby series is far for being neglected. Not even a bit. And I'm speaking in general, as it should be. A newcomer to represent those games? The best way to represent a game is to have a character from said title make an appearance. Kirby himself, Meta Knight and Dedede all make consistent appearances throughout those games so technically them being around already counts as content from the other Kirby titles you just mentioned. Newcomers are nice but Kirby doesn't really need one (not that it wouldn't be welcome if it ever happened), but I don't know why people think they need to be added on the basis of such arbitrary thinking when developers consider fun factor a much important reason. As for a bit of trivia, Return to Dreamland heavily draws from Super Star and Smash.

We also have to be realistic as well, there are too many games per franchise and not every single one of them is going to get characters, trophies, stages, etc. so we shouldn't be reacting like that because they didn't include every title under the sun into one game. If you start doing that, then you might as well start listing the endless examples; like saying that there is bias against Super Mario Bros. 3 or Super Mario 3D World for not having a stage; or bias against 3rd and 5th gen pokemon games for not having a playable character; or towards the GB Zeldas for the lack of items or characters. Same for Fire Emblem for not having GBA FE characters (except for Roy now and Lyn). Just categorize all Kirby content into the Kirby series. No need to cherry pick, it is not rocket science after all.
I have to say again that I don't understand this attitude. You are given a lot and your response is "you haven't done enough for me". For some spoiled people, everything needs to be given in a silver plate and if not then it's hardly worth it. It is a problematic stance within our community.

 

[LancerStaff]

Zelda and Samus can't be this bad without some form of neglect on Sakurai's part.

It's called "balancing the mode that sells the game." Balancing exclusively for 1v1s would be as stupid as balancing weapons in Halo around the single player.

Sakurai has been (or rather, tried to be) bias since day one. He tried putting in Dedede in 64 before the likes of Peach, Zelda, Ganondorf, and Diddy, characters who are far higher up the iconic ladder than he is. And when he mentions what would have happened if the six clones in Melee? He specifically mentions Dedede would have possibly been added. Why Dedede have all people? Maybe it wasn't bias, but it's still suspicious regardless. Brawl didn't have anything out of place outside of how the Kirby cast got a special amount of spotlight, but Smash 4? I refuse to start on that.

Mario already had himself, Luigi, DK and Yoshi, and dresses were completely out of the question on the N64. So that leaves Dorf, a character then from one game with an unconfirmed future, and Diddy Kong, who I wouldn't say beats out Kirby by a significant margin.

You bring up many good points, and I'm not saying that you're wrong, I just find it very strange - the treatment of characters that Sakurai has worked with. You're 100% correct in saying that Jigglypuff doesn't have a bad recovery. But then Kirby, also getting 6 jumps also gets an Up B? To me it just seems like if someone else gets something special, one of Sakurai's characters has to 1-up them in some form or fashion. Hell, Charizard can FLY in his original games, that sounds just as good as infinite floating, doesn't it? Well apparently it's not, according to Sakurai.

Now back to the Pit argument. Again, you're right, Pit was in Smash Bros before Sakurai worked on him. But after Sakurai started working with the Kid-Icarus franchise, not just one, but two more characters from that IP are put into Smash Bros. Call me crazy for saying this, but I don't think that's a coincidence. No one cared who Palutena or Dark Pit were even after Uprising was released. Yet Sakurai just HAD to put them in because they were a bigger part of HIS world. You know how many copies of KI:U were sold world wide? 1.18 million. Lets compare that to a few other Smash reps game sales:

• Pokemon X/Y - 13.85 million sales
• Animal Crossing: New Leaf - 8.84 million sales
  
• Super Mario 3D World - 4.10 million sales
• Legend of Zelda Majora's Mask 3D - 2.03 million sales
• Xenoblade Chronicles - 0.90 million sales (But don't forget by the end of 2011, there were roughly 950,000 pirated copies of the game) ~ roughly 1.85 million
• Fire Emblem Awakening - 1.79 million sales
• Metroid: Other M - 1.31 million sales
  
• Kid Icarus Uprising - 1.19 million sales
  
• Pikmin 3 - 0.91 million sales
  
• Star Fox 64 3D - 0.85 million sales

I mean come on, of all the games that had recent releases, the only ones that did worse than KI:U was a remake of a Star Fox game and Pikmin (the one franchise arguably less known than Kid Icarus). Why didn't Xenoblade get more representatives, or Pokemon? Why did it have to be the title that Sakurai worked on? There is no explanation other than that: he worked on it. Also note that I used whichever source cited the most recent date of sales for all of these titles.

And you're once again right...recovery is only a very small part of the game. Good thing that characters with bad recoveries aren't thrown into lower tiers because of it (*cough* Doctor Mario *cough* Lil Mac *cough*). Recoveries are only one of many aspects in a game, but they are important. That's why the villager is able to be so powerful, and why people are always laughing at Little Mac or Doctor Mario. You aren't an idiot, and you know how vital it is to return to the ledge. Don't even act like it's forgivable to privilege your own characters and completely disrespect others who are similar in many ways. (And as far as the Melee Kirby thing goes, Smash was a much smaller thing back then. That game is famous for it's exploits, not what it was initially designed to be).

Also I hope this doesn't come off too malicious or anything, just trying to prove my points the best I can.

Palutena and Dark Pit were highly requested in Japan, a significant chunk of KIU's sales were in Japan and thus it's fanbase would be louder in Japan, and you're comparing a game that came out before the 3DS became popular to games that released in the 3DS's prime. Just look at MM3D vs OoT3D. Both relatively bare-bones remakes of a cult classic/black sheap vs the defining Zelda game/what's considered to be the best game of all time. MM3D destroyed OoT3D. Is OoT a worse game then MM now, or is there a more reasonable answer?

 

[ZombieBran]

It's called "balancing the mode that sells the game." Balancing exclusively for 1v1s would be as stupid as balancing weapons in Halo around the single player.

Except that mode isn't balanced very well either. Sheik is absolutely pitiful in free for alls.

It's clear that Sakurai takes 1v1s into heavy consideration given that he's heavily buffed Ike and Shulk, two characters that utterly dominate free for alls.

He just neglects Samus and Zelda. The latter less so with the last two patches.

 

[LancerStaff]

Except that mode isn't balanced very well either. Sheik is absolutely pitiful in free for alls.

It's clear that Sakurai takes 1v1s into heavy consideration given that he's heavily buffed Ike and Shulk, two characters that utterly dominate free for alls.

He just neglects Samus and Zelda. The latter less so with the last two patches.

Shiek has Burst Grenades and Bouncing Fish almost exclusively for FFAs and also has items play to consider, Ike hasn't gotten anything that significantly improves his FFA performance (and is still lagging behind his Brawl appearance for FFAs), and all Shulk has gotten was a 1% buff to most moves (which doesn't mean much since he'll only be dealing 1/4 or 1/8 the total hits) and some art changes. FFAs have barely been effected as far as balancing goes.

 

[allison]

So I ended up liking posts from both sides of the argument and now I'm not sure what my position is

 

[Merkabo]

Who honestly cares? Are you going to let things so trivial and minute as the points made both for this idea of the developer's favoritism detract the sheer amount of effort and love put into the game? I mean there's what, 54 characters? 6 of which belong to the man's two franchises, and one of those 6 being a clone which probably only took a few hours of development time?

What's the purpose of focusing on a single point or idea tied to what amounts to just a shoddy conspiracy when there is a ocean of good things about the product? Are you not going to swim in the ocean or enjoy the beach because you think you see a single piece of trash 50 meters into the distance? If you are like that, it must be extremely difficult to enjoy anything at all, no? Why don't you chill out and have some fun?

 

[Blue Warrior]

This is the most subjective and trivial "issue" I've ever seen.

 

[GunGunW]

If they're going to write a snarky article picking on people, they can at least get their facts right and not say Sakurai created Kid Icarus.

 

[MasterOfKnees]

In terms of balancing the only time anyone could point their finger and blame Sakurai for bias is Meta Knight in Brawl, which might aswell be a coincidence. Otherwise his characters don't tend to be very good, Kirby is the worst character in Melee, he's not good in Brawl either, and he's awfully average in Smash 4. Dedede is only highly ranked in Brawl because of chain-grabbing, which we aren't sure whether is intentional or not, and of course without it he's not as strong in Smash 4. Meta Knight has of course been nerfed in Smash 4 too and started off being pretty bad. The Kid Icarus characters aren't great either, Pit and Dark Pit are okay and Palutena is horrible.

Where he is biased though is with the content he puts in the game, we haven't seen any Kirby content from any of the games he didn't work on, and Kid Icarus: Uprising obviously has way too much representation for what is ultimately just one game, there's not even one thing from the NES game. Let's not forget the Kirby characters' heavy influence in Subspace Emissary either, all three characters had key roles in the story. In that regard it's hard to deny his bias, which is an odd development as in Melee you could argue he held himself back too much on that front by not including Dedede, but lead to Brawl needing to introduce two Kirby newcomers.

 

[LancerStaff]

In terms of balancing the only time anyone could point their finger and blame Sakurai for bias is Meta Knight in Brawl, which might aswell be a coincidence. Otherwise his characters don't tend to be very good, Kirby is the worst character in Melee, he's not good in Brawl either, and he's awfully average in Smash 4. Dedede is only highly ranked in Brawl because of chain-grabbing, which we aren't sure whether is intentional or not, and of course without it he's not as strong in Smash 4. Meta Knight has of course been nerfed in Smash 4 too and started off being pretty bad. The Kid Icarus characters aren't great either, Pit and Dark Pit are okay and Palutena is horrible.

Where he is biased though is with the content he puts in the game, we haven't seen any Kirby content from any of the games he didn't work on, and Kid Icarus: Uprising obviously has way too much representation for what is ultimately just one game, there's not even one thing from the NES game. Let's not forget the Kirby characters' heavy influence in Subspace Emissary either, all three characters had key roles in the story. In that regard it's hard to deny his bias, which is an odd development as in Melee you could argue he held himself back too much on that front by not including Dedede, but lead to Brawl needing to introduce two Kirby newcomers.

Pit's on the top of B while Dark Pit is on the lower end. That's a bit better then "okay."

Uh, Kirby's new Final Smash is a pretty big thing from a new game, and there's a few music tracks. The new Green Greens remix also takes ques from RtDL.

The thing with the items and stuff is that it's not about reps, it's about what works. For example, the crystal shield from the original KI. Basically just a nerfed curry in practice. Most of the items in KIU are leftover ideas or straight copies from other games. If they weren't in Smash as KI items they would be as generic Smash items, and too many people get their undies knotted up over what logo appears over them. It's freakin' stupid.

 

[Curious Villager]

True, I believe Sakurai did state at some point that a lot of Kid Icarus items where made with Smash in mind. Had they not been in Uprising, they would have probably made it in as Smash original items and then we'd probably have everyone complaining about how a lot of the new items are Smash original and not from another source material. Y'know..... just like the SSE enemies?

 

[Mobes]

This is the most subjective and trivial "issue" I've ever seen.

Absolutely agree. It's only going to continuously crank the negativity valve, and keep us playing armchair psychiatrists in regards to Sakurai.

I want what these sorts of threads develop into separated from the rest of Smash 4 'General Discussion'. I'd quite like a "Opinion Corner" sub-forum.

 

[asia_catdog_blue]

Sakurai will never admit his bias. He'll take it to the grave with him. But look at the facts, he gives all of HIS characters (except for Palutena) multiple jumps with great recoveries. Pit (4), Dark Pit (4), Kirby (6), DeDeDe (5), and Meta Knight (6) all get X hops (the number next to their name) + a recovery. The only other character who gets multiple jumps (Jigglypuff) gets 6 jumps, and no recovery. But that's not as bad as what he did to Charizard...Gave him only three jumps (rather small at that) and a pathetic recovery. So he makes DeDeDe heavier (DeDeDe @ 119, Charizard @ 115), get more jumps (DeDeDe @ 5, Charizard @ 3), and a better recovery? Because logic. He made it practically impossible to gimp five out of the six of his characters, due to their flying properties, but screwed over Charizard, another flier.

He sees Charizard more as a heavyweight, I guess. Either way, the Fire-Type Pokemon could have been a lot more, but nope. He ends up being a Bowser with wings.

And I could argue for days about the inclusion of Dark Pit. Hell, if Dark Pit is able to be a fighter, why not Dark Link, or Fierce Diety Link? Why do you bother making a much more unique an stylistic skin for Alph, Wario and Little Mac, but only leave those as alternative skins rather than separate characters? Why give your own character a new slot over everyone else? Wasn't it because Dark Pit wouldn't be canonically correct using the "sacred weapons"? (And then he ended up giving Pit a dark themed skin anyways...) But there's nothing wrong giving Ganondorf a slowed/strengthened version of Falcon's moveset, because that's canonically correct.

Probably because those links aren't actual characters. Also, Fierce Deity Link doesn't have a shield. And Ganondorf was a sign of both not wanted to alienate what fant "that' did have, and laziness.

And because he hasn't done anything special for Palutena yet, lets just unlock all of her moves from the start. You can struggle to unlock everyone elses, but we'll make it easier for Palutena. (For the sake of this post, I'm going to pretend I don't know about how ridiculous her Smash attacks are). It's just the specific treatment of his characters that annoys me. I feel like so few of the other characters got some sort of "special treatment" in the same way his characters did, but he also disrespected other characters (Charizard and Ganon to name a few), and that really annoys me.

I'll simply end my post with... "All smashers are equal, but some smashers are more equal than others."

Kay, I really feel like I have to say something about this.

Why do the Kirby characters get so many jumps? Because that's exactly how they actually move in their own games. There's not much to say beyond that, in most Kirby games, you get infinite freaking jumps, it's just a part of the series and correctly representing that feature was obviously important to keep the characters accurate. Charizard? He's kind of never been on a game where you have direct control over him. I do agree that giving such a terrible air mobility to a flying-type Pokémon is kind of weird, but that's kind of just one character. Also, Jigglypuff may "not" get a recovery in the conventional sense, but her horizontal movement is so freaking ridiculous that she's recover pretty much 100% of the times you don't leave her way below the stage. At that point, she barely even needs a movement-based up+B. Jigglypuff does not have a bad recovery under any standards.

And now let's talk about Pit.

You know what's funny about Pit?

He's not Sakurai's character.

Sakurai had literally nothing to do with Pit's creation, so accussing him of bias when it comes to giving him a good recovery is laughable at best. Yes, he revived the franchise when he worked on Kid Icarus Uprising. But he did so years after Pit was added into Smash Bros. When Pit was given four jumps in Smash, Sakurai had never touched the character before, so where exactly would the bias come from? Other than the new moves given to him in Smash 4, anything that Pit does in Smash has nothing to do with Sakurai working with the character because that actually happened after Pit's inclusion. What makes this even worse is that Pit actually had a better recovery in Brawl, where he could fly through the air completely freely, but had the ability taken off in Smash 4. He nerfed Pit's recovery after he actually worked with the character himself.

He's not Sakurai's character. That's why Sakurai made his own Pit.

THIS is the original Pit.

And THIS is Sakurai's fanfiction OC based on Pit.

Besides... Dude, it's just recovery. Recovery is a single part of Smash's gameplay, if you have a good recovery you're not automatically a good character. Let me remind you that Kirby is pretty much universally considered one of the worst characters in Melee.

EDIT: Wow, I thought I was gonna write a quick short post, lol. Sorry if I ended up sounding a bit angry about this or anything.

Basically, I boils down to Sakurai sticking with the stuff he worked on, thus have more knowledge of his own works than the works of others.

 

[Kjaerlighet]

To me, It's evident that certain characters and franchises are prioritised over others. Not saying "only Sakurias games are being favoured" because I don't believe thats 100% true. One thing no one has really mentioned is the Zelda franchise as a whole, its the 3rd biggest franchise in the whole game (behind Mario and Pokemon) and what has it really got since melee? Nothing really. Child Link> Toonlink is probably the biggest thing and even that is really nothing. Ganondorf having falcons moves is just stupid, when he could easily have a completely unique move set - a more "canon" one. NO extra characters (despite probably 3-4 new games in between there), old character designs (from Twilight princess) despite Skyward sword being a thing and why the hell doesn't Link and/or Toon Link get to use fire and ice arrows as custom B moves? Its the logical choice if you ask me. Speaking of Link and Toon Link.. Whats with their final smash? A character like Pit gets to use something thats actually from his most recent game but they just made something up for those 2? Triforce slash is never actually a thing in any Zelda game. Plus giving them the same one just seems lazy. And with the MM remake coming out recently, I would have thought something cool could have been put into smash from that (idc that skull kid is an assist trophy), even if its just a stage.

Any who, I could probably go on, but I'm not going to. I believe the Zelda franchise has a lot of potential to add to smash and is pretty neglected considering how big the series is. Hell, it has the same amount of character representatives as Fire emblem, which is no where near as popular or iconic.

Edit: Not to mention how horrendous most the series' s characters are in smash, Shiek aside, of course.

 

[TurboLink]

To me, It's evident that certain characters and franchises are prioritised over others. Not saying "only Sakurias games are being favoured" because I don't believe thats 100% true. One thing no one has really mentioned is the Zelda franchise as a whole, its the 3rd biggest franchise in the whole game (behind Mario and Pokemon) and what has it really got since melee? Nothing really. Child Link> Toonlink is probably the biggest thing and even that is really nothing. Ganondorf having falcons moves is just stupid, when he could easily have a completely unique move set - a more "canon" one. NO extra characters (despite probably 3-4 new games in between there), old character designs (from Twilight princess) despite Skyward sword being a thing and why the hell doesn't Link and/or Toon Link get to use fire and ice arrows as custom B moves? Its the logical choice if you ask me. Speaking of Link and Toon Link.. Whats with their final smash? A character like Pit gets to use something thats actually from his most recent game but they just made something up for those 2? Triforce slash is never actually a thing in any Zelda game. Plus giving them the same one just seems lazy. And with the MM remake coming out recently, I would have thought something cool could have been put into smash from that (idc that skull kid is an assist trophy), even if its just a stage.

Any who, I could probably go on, but I'm not going to. I believe the Zelda franchise has a lot of potential to add to smash and is pretty neglected considering how big the series is. Hell, it has the same amount of character representatives as Fire emblem, which is no where near as popular or iconic.

Edit: Not to mention how horrendous most the series' s characters are in smash, Shiek aside, of course.

Toon Link has the Fire Arrows as a custom move.

Also, here's a present for ya. :^)

http://gfycat.com/UnfitVibrantAmericanrobin

 

[Kjaerlighet]

Toon Link has the Fire Arrows as a custom move.

Also, here's a present for ya. :^)

http://gfycat.com/UnfitVibrantAmericanrobin

I stand mistaken! thats awesome lol

 

[SmashBear]

Although i don't see much favoritism in smash 4. Meta Knight in brawl man.... what were they thinking?!

 

[LRodC]

This thread honestly seems like it's just a ton of whining. I highly doubt Sakurai buffs and nerfs characters based on favoritism. That's just completely asinine. And the complaints about all of Sakurai's characters getting multiple jumps... Seriously? Those define the characters. That feels like grasping at straws.

People bring up Kirby versus Jigglypuff and complain that they have the same amount of jumps, but Jiggs doesn't have an Up B recovery whereas Kirby does. Does that make Kirby's better? Not exactly. Kirby has lower jumps, much worse air speed, and falls faster. He needs the up B option whereas Jigglypuff doesn't since she has some of the best jumps in the game.

And then Charizard gets brought up versus Dedede in terms of recovery, despite the fact that Dedede has the worst air speed in the game to compensate for having a great heavyweight recovery. Unlike Charizard, he has no access to a good horizontal option. The amount of jumps and distance of their up B does not tell the whole story.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Some of you seem to be the kind of people who take the silliest of things like the amount of music within each respective game series to determine whether there is bias behind a games creation. Why not look at it more like "Whoa, this game has 400+ songs as a whole, has been receiving new content, and a myriad of other things!" Seriously though, who cares if Fire Emblem has five characters to represent the series? Four of which play completely different from the other with their unique attributes and move properties. It's becoming a pretty huge series for Nintendo! Having a series be as popular as it is and going strong for so long now surely deserves the amazing additions we got!

I can somewhat see what people mean when they say Donkey Kong deserves more content overall, but I do not believe it comes down to favoritism overall, but rather just a lack of time to bring in...more than what we got. You see what I'm saying? Look at the huge cast of characters, stages, songs overall. That's a LOT, certainly nothing to sneeze at. Yeah, maybe they could have (and might one day) brought Dixie as the third character for the DK series, but she likely would have been a semi-clone of Diddy anyway, and people would still whine about that in spite of having more content.

Was also reading someones comment (forgot whose) complaining how certain aspects of a series didn't get represented, which I don't even know how to respond to. At that point it just becomes nitpicking when you literally lose sleep because the Mario series didn't represent Super Mario Bros 3 as a stage. Seriously. Sakurai is one man who has his own views on things. There's a whole team that worked on Smash 4 beyond Sakurai, you know.

I'm going to just leave it at this; judging by the comments, assuming one of you all were in charge overlooking an massive project like this, I'd think you all would have the wrong idea on proper balance. Sure if it was up to you all we'd probably have more Donkey Kong reps (Dixie Kong, King K. Rool, etc), and Legend Of Zelda or Metroid, but then neglect to include or even consider someone like Roy and Kid Icarus would still only have Pit.