Sakurai On Wii Fit Trainer, Villager and The Order of Character Announcements

[MezzoMe]

But he's not purple.

Most likely because they are unlockable, with Lucina being the only unlockable announced before the release of the 3DS version.

 

[Ryu Myuutsu]

No, he's just a hypocrite.

Also, is the true space dragon, you filthy heretic.

Is not hypocrisy. Unless you go out of your way in ignoring the rest of the newcomers, he kept his word in adding new fresh characters while clones were merely conceived as extras during testing.
Not that would stop ignorant children like you from taking quotes out of context. Try using your head for once.

 

[PunchCherry]

He just doesn't like making sequels it is the reason he stopped making Kirby games after Kirby Air Ride and tries to make all the Smash games play differently.

Well that explains why Return to Dreamland was canceled a million times.

 

[SmashShadow]

The thing I really don't like about the clones is the fact that they went so minimal for changes to make them seem unique. Dark Pit is Pit with 3-4 aesthetic changes to his moves. Lucina is Marth with a balanced blade. Did they really need to pander to fans if all they were going to do was change that little? They might as well have been pallete swaps.

At least Doc makes some sense being a veteran and actually had a substantial amount of differences in his move properties (even if they were still clone moves) but even then, it's not like Mario needed any more characters this iteration let alone needing a second version of himself in the game.

 

[GaMeR N1CK]

So, why was Wolf cut?

 

[OdangoKnight]

Sakurai already talked about Dark Pit when inquired about Dr. Mario. They were originally envisioned to be "variations" of already existing characters (think of the Koopalings or Alph), but decided to tweak them slightly as a service to the fans who would associate with these characters differently than who they were slapped on to as palette swaps (,,). Sakurai has shared that the initial roster for the game was finalized in May of 2012, long ago. Doc wasn't on it. Dark Pit wasn't on it. Lucina was not on it. But you know what? Neither was Chrom or Ridley or Dixie or whomever, and no amount of clones will ever change that. As I have argued for a long time, their presence on the roster is an extra gift, and it did not take any other character's development time for them to be included.

It's not really a gift when:

You now have to complete classic/allstar with more characters, including copies of existing ones that essentially make the thing a boring slog

You now have twice as much of a chance of getting Pit or Marth because the game is treating their costumes like different characters (so choosing random is a lot less random)

When trying to get custom moves (which is horrible enough as it is) you have less of a chance getting ones you need

If they were alts then the characters would still exist as alt costumes for those that actually like them.

 

[Smash_Veteran_Amtoj]

I like the clone trio. They're just there to please fans of those characters, and didn't take much work at all. Why complain?

 

[WinterShorts]

So, why was Wolf cut?

Too many star fox characters?

 

[The Slayer]

He definitely loves the Zelda series considering the Kirby games have references to the series, not just the green hat on Sword Kirby either, Kirby Superstar added the sword laser from Zelda, it even works the same way only available when you're at full health. Meta Knight has that too in the DS remake.

Probably back then, but not as much now. Even then, HAL Labs was without Sakurai on the remake.

 

[the101]

[="the101 post: 18310838, member: 255439IA"]Sakurai already talked about Dark Pit when inquired about Dr. Mario. They were originally envisioned to be "variations" of already existing characters (think of the Koopalings or Alph), but decided to tweak them slightly as a service to the fans who would associate with these characters differently than who they were slapped on to as palette swaps (,,). Sakurai has shared that the initial roster for the game was finalized in May of 2012, long ago. Doc wasn't on it. Dark Pit wasn't on it. Lucina was not on it. But you know what? Neither was Chrom or Ridley or Dixie or whomever, and no amount of clones will ever change that. As I have argued for a long time, their presence on the roster is an extra gift, and it did not take any other character's development time for them to be included.[/quote]
Beileve It or not I like clones especially since it's an extra but I just mentioned it since I didn't know what he would say about him specifically. I even main

(I have no clue why this post looks so bad lol)[/quote]

I main Dark Pit too, and my response wasn't exactly directed at you, per say, so I'm sorry that it came off that way. It's just that my biggest issue with the latest Smash Bros. is how people complain about the clones included, particularly Dark Pit

 

[PokÉmblem]

[=the101 post: 18310838, member: 255439IA"]Sakurai already talked about Dark Pit when inquired about Dr. Mario. They were originally envisioned to be "variations" of already existing characters (think of the Koopalings or Alph), but decided to tweak them slightly as a service to the fans who would associate with these characters differently than who they were slapped on to as palette swaps (,,). Sakurai has shared that the initial roster for the game was finalized in May of 2012, long ago. Doc wasn't on it. Dark Pit wasn't on it. Lucina was not on it. But you know what? Neither was Chrom or Ridley or Dixie or whomever, and no amount of clones will ever change that. As I have argued for a long time, their presence on the roster is an extra gift, and it did not take any other character's development time for them to be included.

Beileve It or not I like clones especially since it's an extra but I just mentioned it since I didn't know what he would say about him specifically. I even main

(I have no clue why this post looks so bad lol)[/quote]

I main Dark Pit too, and my response wasn't exactly directed at you, per say, so I'm sorry that it came off that way. It's just that my biggest issue with the latest Smash Bros. is how people complain about the clones included, particularly Dark Pit[/quote]
Yeah, I don't like the haters either. Actually most of my mains are clones/semi-clones (Toon link, luigi, dark pit) Clones just add a veriety to me and to be honest If Isaac came in as a semi-clone for Robin I wouldn't mind

 

[Deleted member]

If a character is popular/significant enough to warrant their own roster slot, they deserve their own unique moveset. Anything less is a disservice to that character. Dark Pit's inclusion is not what bothers me. What bothers me is that there is so much material from KI:U to draw from for a unique moveset, and yet none of it is utilized. Same goes for Toon Link.

And Wolf and Lucas being cut still baffles me. Adding them couldn't have been too much work considering they already had established movesets from Brawl rather than having to design them from scratch. Star Fox and Earthbound are the only games to have actually lost representation in Smash (well, Ice Climber too), and that's not really fair. Honestly, the only reason they seem to have been cut is to provide Fox/Ness with more custom move options, and I'd rather have the characters than the custom moves.

 

[Seal]

Keep in mind characters can still be added through updates. Maybe if enough support is shown for adding a certain character, it'll get done.

 

[TheFadedWarrior]

- Don't forget this guy who is still just a slower and stronger Captain Falcon for 14 years. Not much individuality there either.

Yeah, but in my opinion Ganondorf is probably the most different "clone" other than Wolf in Brawl, who wasn't even a clone at all. In SSB4 he has at least a few different attacks.

 

[Ragna22]

Probably back then, but not as much now. Even then, HAL Labs was without Sakurai on the remake.

I think it still shows seeing as he put Link up against the Kid Icarus characters in Palutena's reveal trailer and there's also the sudden spike in how many new Zelda items are in the new game, one thing's for sure though he loves Twilight Princess.

 

[Delzethin]

...this time an important aspect of the concept was “if that character is included, could interesting things be done and could that fighter express individual traits?” When making this game, it was necessary to think very seriously “how to create new fun things”. I was able to think in my head the way how Wii Fit Trainer and Villager would operate so therefore they were included. Games must be completed properly, and in order to have fun gameplay for you and your opponent, each character has to have individuality. The present Smash Bros. was done by giving importance to that.

For those speculating about character DLC, this might be the most important thing to take from the article. Sakurai doesn't pull characters out of a hat; he puts a lot of attention on what their moveset would look like and if they'd have a sense of individuality compared to the rest of the roster.

In other words, moveset potential is one of the biggest deciding factors. It might only be second to being relevant in a game in the past few years.

Well, except for the clones, but they were bonuses anyway. >_>

 

[The Slayer]

I think it still shows seeing as he put Link up against the Kid Icarus characters in Palutena's reveal trailer and there's also the sudden spike in how many new Zelda items are in the new game, one thing's for sure though he loves Twilight Princess.

He can sugarcoat the thought, but I still taste bitter in Smash. Maybe Sheik but that's it.

 

[Yong Dekonk]

When talking roster selection people need to remember that Sakurai was limited by corporate demand that the roster be the same on 3ds and Wii U. Imagine how much bigger of a roster we could have had if Sakurai wasn't limited by 3DS computing power? People also need to remember that some clones are better than no clones. Without the clones the roster was maxed out for the DS and the inclusion of them was just extra. Sakurai has sacrificed more of his life to this game than anyone else and I'm tired of hearing people criticize roster selection when they have no idea how difficult it is to make a smash game.

 

[SmashShadow]

Clones just add a veriety to me

Umm... did you just say clones add variety? How so?

 

[the101]

If a character is popular/significant enough to warrant their own roster slot, they deserve their own unique moveset. Anything less is a disservice to that character. Dark Pit's inclusion is not what bothers me. What bothers me is that there is so much material from KI:U to draw from for a unique moveset, and yet none of it is utilized. Same goes for Toon Link.

And Wolf and Lucas being cut still baffles me. Adding them couldn't have been too much work considering they already had established movesets from Brawl rather than having to design them from scratch. Star Fox and Earthbound are the only games to have actually lost representation in Smash (well, Ice Climber too), and that's not really fair. Honestly, the only reason they seem to have been cut is to provide Fox/Ness with more custom move options, and I'd rather have the characters than the custom moves.

To be honest none of the cuts were a surprise to me. I didn't expect Wolf or Lucas returning as far back as 2012, when I was considering how development would go. This is because they come from franchises that have mostly been dormant since 2006, and franchises like that don't exactly need multiple characters to represent them. I'm not saying they weren't considered at all, but they were at least low-priority characters for the reason I mentioned.
Just to be clear, while I anticipated their absence I still miss them. I particularly miss Wolf because unlike Falco, he was not a clone or semi-clone of Fox. He wasn't exactly the most unique character on Brawl's roster, but he was still diverse enough to establish his own following of fans.
I do believe that those two are excellent candidates for DLC, however. I would keep my eyes open when Star Fox for Wii U approaches it's release date, or if Nintendo announces that Mother 3 is coming to the Nintendo eShop (be it just in Japan or, hopefully, an international release maybe?). I think Smash Bros. DLC would be excellent promotion for those titles.

 

[PokÉmblem]

Umm... did you just say clones add variety? How so?

Maybe I want to play a character differently like not having very curvy arrows or having nonbouncing fireballs It's also an extra gift from Sakurai so either add clones or don't use those slots and having those clones in adds more veriety than no clones at all

 

[Yong Dekonk]

People need to understand that clones could not simply be replaced with unique characters. Unique characters add a lot more content that could not fit on the 3DS version. STOP COMPLAINING ABOUT CLONES.

 

[FieryRebirth]

I wonder what made him consider Rosalina, aside from the fact that she's one of the only main Mario characters who's not a cardboard box.

Look at the Rosalina clear screen art and see for yourself.

Sakurai has many waifus.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Look at the Rosalina clear screen art and see for yourself.

Sakurai has many waifus.

But he would never betray Palutena!

 

[FieryRebirth]

But he would never betray Palutena!

Lonely people are not easily satisfied as long as they're curious.

 

[MarioMeteor]

Lonely people are not easily satisfied as long as they're curious.

Sakurai has a wife. Other than Palutena.

 

[Deleted member]

has sacrificed more of his life to this game than anyone else and I'm tired of hearing people criticize roster selection when they have no idea how difficult it is to make a smash game.

We are the customers who are buying the product. Our hard earned money is what allows Sakurai to make these games in the first place. It's called supply and demand. We have every right to criticize what we don't like about the product. Don't like it? Then leave.

 

[[Obnoxshush/Dasshizer]]

Keep in mind characters can still be added through updates. Maybe if enough support is shown for adding a certain character, it'll get done.

Why do you think I'm rallying up support for Wolf like a madman?
Sakurai said he wouldn't do any more balance patches...UNLESS there was a major game breaking bug, and thanks to Pacman there is. .
So they chose the reveal dates from the beginning? interesting.

 

[Comorant]

The thing I really don't like about the clones is the fact that they went so minimal for changes to make them seem unique. Dark Pit is Pit with 3-4 aesthetic changes to his moves. Lucina is Marth with a balanced blade. Did they really need to pander to fans if all they were going to do was change that little? They might as well have been pallete swaps.

At least Doc makes some sense being a veteran and actually had a substantial amount of differences in his move properties (even if they were still clone moves) but even then, it's not like Mario needed any more characters this iteration let alone needing a second version of himself in the game.

Agreed, while I don't mind clones, and I understand they couldn't go and create a bunch of new moves and animations, I do wish they went a little further with the differences. Dark Pit could have been to Pit what Falco was to Fox in Melee, and Lucina could have easily been Marth's Young Link or even a full on throwback to Roy.

Yeah, but in my opinion Ganondorf is probably the most different "clone" other than Wolf in Brawl, who wasn't even a clone at all. In SSB4 he has at least a few different attacks.

You forgot about our other friend here.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Yeah, but in my opinion Ganondorf is probably the most different "clone" other than Wolf in Brawl, who wasn't even a clone at all. In SSB4 he has at least a few different attacks.

Yeah he has a few different attacks like Flame Choke, Ftilt, Fair etc. But my issue (*and many other peoples as well) is that he should be a lot more different than he currently is. And hearing how inspired he was for Greninja and seeing how much love was poured into Mega-Man, Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Palutena, Rosalina etc. moves and design to make them really unique and special just makes me upset as a Legend of Zelda fan and a Ganondorf fan (my fav video game character ever).

At this point after 14 years of being (at best) a semi-clone is just plain disrespect for one of the most iconic villains in gaming history.

The thing is I enjoy playing as Ganondorf in smash, so keeping the play style would make me happy but his moves/animations should be different. At the very least he should get his iconic DMV, his sword for smash attacks and new animations (that differ him from C. Falcon) across the board.

 

[OdangoKnight]

Yeah he has a few different attacks like Flame Choke, Ftilt, Fair etc. But my issue (*and many other peoples as well) is that he should be a lot more different than he currently is. And hearing how inspired he was for Greninja and seeing how much love was poured into Mega-Man, Pac-Man, Duck Hunt, Palutena, Rosalina etc. moves and design to make them really unique and special just makes me upset as a Legend of Zelda fan and a Ganondorf fan (my fav video game character ever).

At this point after 14 years of being (at best) a semi-clone is just plain disrespect for one of the most iconic villains in gaming history.

The thing is I enjoy playing as Ganondorf in smash, so keeping the play style would make me happy but his moves/animations should be different. At the very least he should get his iconic DMV, his sword for smash attacks and new animations (that differ him from C. Falcon) across the board.

None of the other characters are Sakurai's father though you silly goose!

 

[Yong Dekonk]

We are the customers who are buying the product. Our hard earned money is what allows Sakurai to make these games in the first place. It's called supply and demand. We have every right to criticize what we don't like about the product. Don't like it? Then leave.

My point I was making is that people have no clue how

We are the customers who are buying the product. Our hard earned money is what allows Sakurai to make these games in the first place. It's called supply and demand. We have every right to criticize what we don't like about the product. Don't like it? Then leave.

You missed the point. You can criticize all you want but you just sound ignorant. From a programming standpoint, unique characters are not interchangeable with clone characters in terms of memory. That's why there are unreleased unique characters that were never made because they could not fit them in the game. So people need to stop whining that there aren't more unique characters and start whining that Nintendo forced Sakurai to make Smash for 3DS because that is the most limiting factor.

 

[Redd500]

You now have to complete classic/allstar with more characters, including copies of existing ones that essentially make the thing a boring slog

When trying to get custom moves (which is horrible enough as it is) you have less of a chance getting ones you need

I would suggest you moderate how much you grind for the things you are still missing if you're getting bored doing that. Spend more time playing the game the way you want.

You now have twice as much of a chance of getting Pit or Marth because the game is treating their costumes like different characters (so choosing random is a lot less random)

So it goes from a 1/49 chance to a 2/49 chance for 3 characters. I don't see why you're making this a major complaint.

 

[OdangoKnight]

I would suggest you moderate how much you grind for the things you are still missing if you're getting bored doing that. Spend more time playing the game the way you want.



So it goes from a 1/49 chance to a 2/49 chance for 3 characters. I don't see why you're making this a major complaint.

I didn't say it was a major complaint at all. it's just three glaring points. All my points are valid negatives that affect the game nor are they objective.

They do increase classic time by making you play through it three more times with characters you've done it with.
They do lower what character you can play as via random.
They do lower obtaining custom moves.

No amounts of 'you should do this' will remove these issues.

 

[FieryRebirth]

Sakurai has a wife. Other than Palutena.

Doesn't stop the common animator/developer from putting in sexual fantasies or ideal waifu sadly. And Sakurai being married or not, there are A LOT of sexually repressed people over in Japan.

 

[Redd500]

I didn't say it was a major complaint at all. it's just three glaring points. All my points are valid negatives that affect the game nor are they objective.

They do increase classic time by making you play through it three more times with characters you've done it with.
They do lower what character you can play as via random.
They do lower obtaining custom moves.

No amounts of 'you should do this' will remove these issues.

You claimed that the clone characters aren't really gifts because of those reasons, implying that those reasons were, in fact, major complaints. The same goes for saying that they're glaring points, implying that those reasons are critical. If they aren't important or major, you shouldn't use vocabulary that implies otherwise.

They are valid, but are so incredibly minor compared to the fact that there's a new character with different mechanics to master that figuring out ways to get past those grievances is your best bet.

 

[OdangoKnight]

You claimed that the clone characters aren't really gifts because of those reasons, implying that those reasons were, in fact, major complaints. The same goes for saying that they're glaring points, implying that those reasons are critical. If they aren't important or major, you shouldn't use vocabulary that implies otherwise.

They are valid, but are so incredibly minor compared to the fact that there's a new character with different mechanics to master that figuring out ways to get past those grievances is your best bet.

Glaring as in obvious. They aren't gifts because of the faults they have (but would be gifts if they remained just alts, issuing no faults), it isn't major/critical because a major problem would be something equivalent to that of a game breaking fault.

If you want to talk about vocabulary (I'd like to point out you're the only one who magically interpreted it as 'major') and jumping the gun then you shouldn't mention 'mastering' techniques on these clones since they have next to no changes (and in terms of Lucina you actually lose skill) so are otherwise complete wastes of space and time for everyone.

 

[Redd500]

Glaring as in obvious. They aren't gifts because of the faults they have (but would be gifts if they remained just alts, issuing no faults), it isn't major/critical because a major problem would be something equivalent to that of a game breaking fault.

If you want to talk about vocabulary (I'd like to point out you're the only one who magically interpreted it as 'major') and jumping the gun then you shouldn't mention 'mastering' techniques on these clones since they have next to no changes (and in terms of Lucina you actually lose skill) so are otherwise complete wastes of space and time for everyone.

"Glaring" is a strong synonym for obvious, and implies a negative tone that tends to embarrass those who miss what was so obvious. In terms of what we're talking about, it would be something like "They put in clones despite the negatives being super obvious?"

A gift is technically something received from someone else for free. In terms of game development, a gift would also need to have the good outweigh the bad, which I'm pretty sure the clone characters qualify. Everything has a downside, even gifts, so your definition of a gift from game developers needing to have absolutely no downsides is frankly unrealistic and confusing. In fact, if they kept the characters as alts, they could very easily reduce the number of colors for the originals and the alts by making each have 4 instead of 8 (Little Mac is the only one who has 8 for both original and alt, and I doubt they would like to do that for every alt).

I'm pretty sure even slight changes to a character can change the way you have to play as them to be successful. If a character is fast and their clone is slower, would you play them the same? And some of the moves have different properties beyond just damage and knockback. Even then, you would have to change your playstyle accordingly.

 

[OdangoKnight]

"Glaring" is a strong synonym for obvious, and implies a negative tone that tends to embarrass those who miss what was so obvious. In terms of what we're talking about, it would be something like "They put in clones despite the negatives being super obvious?"

A gift is technically something received from someone else for free. In terms of game development, a gift would also need to have the good outweigh the bad, which I'm pretty sure the clone characters qualify. Everything has a downside, even gifts, so your definition of a gift from game developers needing to have absolutely no downsides is frankly unrealistic and confusing. In fact, if they kept the characters as alts, they could very easily reduce the number of colors for the originals and the alts by making each have 4 instead of 8 (Little Mac is the only one who has 8 for both original and alt, and I doubt they would like to do that for every alt).

I'm pretty sure even slight changes to a character can change the way you have to play as them to be successful. If a character is fast and their clone is slower, would you play them the same? And some of the moves have different properties beyond just damage and knockback. Even then, you would have to change your playstyle accordingly.

I used a word with negative connotations to convey something I find has negative properties. It conveys the exact same thing I am getting across unless you're trying to be all high and mighty in the attempt of finding the ocean of emotion in blue curtains when they are actually just blue curtains.

A gift can easily be bad as it is good due to being out of touch with the audience, don't know what you're rambling on about. Being confused as for something having no negative traits? It's a game developers job to find and remove things, else you end up with lots of little errors that eventually build up. It's also not unrealistic since there are plenty of areas that don't have errors in them. It's not that they are perfected but they don't hinder the overall package while this actually does.

Of course you'd have to change but it's incredibly minor that it wouldn't require 'mastering it' considering they play similar to their counterparts. It's also Smash 4 were mastering (not perfecting) a character, especially if you've been playing smash for over a decade, is as easy one two three.

 

[Redd500]

I used a word with negative connotations to convey something I find has negative properties. It conveys the exact same thing I am getting across unless you're trying to be all high and mighty in the attempt of finding the ocean of emotion in blue curtains when they are actually just blue curtains.

A gift can easily be bad as it is good due to being out of touch with the audience, don't know what you're rambling on about. Being confused as for something having no negative traits? It's a game developers job to find and remove things, else you end up with lots of little errors that eventually build up. It's also not unrealistic since there are plenty of areas that don't have errors in them. It's not that they perfected but they don't hinder the overall package while this actually does.

Of course you'd have to change but it's incredibly minor that it wouldn't require 'mastering it' considering they play similar to their counterparts. It's also Smash 4 were mastering (not perfecting) a character, especially if you've been playing smash for over a decade, is as easy one two three.

Using "glaring" made the problem sound more important than it actually was. If you had just said that the problems were obvious and not glaring, I would know that you take issue with those problems. However, because you used "glaring", I thought that you took massive offense to these issues. It isn't a matter of negative connotation, but more of how strong the vocab you used was. Your word choice did not reflect how you were actually feeling, unless you actually DID take massive offense to these issues.

With the gifts I'm more talking about inherent "badness". New characters in Smash Bros. means that you will need to complete more Classic runs, get more custom items, and have a harder time with random. But that's with ALL characters added, not just clones. That's what you're complaining about. You can't really fix these inherent cons without drastically changing the game. And as for having to do those things with repeat characters, there are 3 clones in a total of 49 characters. That's a minor increase percentage wise, and the other 43 non-cloned characters should give you more than enough variety.

Yeah, I guess mastering was a bad term to use, but sometimes someone just wants to play a heavier Mario, or a heavier Pit, or a non-tipper Marth. Why should we deny these people their fun because we can't deal with something that comes with every character regardless?