Sakurai Balancing

[RODO]

The other 99% don't hate competitive play they just don't care about it. Even if is higher then 1% it probably isn't by much at all.

Still easy money to be had friend.

 

[Miffa]

Still easy money to be had friend.

I think the best way to look at is it worth doing all the extra work and expenses to add all these things for a little extra sales worth it and we will probably never know that answer.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Sakurai acknowledging PM wonder how that would go the possibilities!!!

the moment he does nitnendo would need to kill PM, on the spot

 

[Malex]

the moment he does nitnendo would need to kill PM, on the spot

From what I have heard on the subject, Nintendo is aware that PM exists.

Currently, they are intrigued but otherwise they cannot acknowledge, because it will require them to take legal action. No one wants this to happen. So, they are being good guys right now and letting go. (I'm assuming this is because a copy of the game is required, and they are not pushing out content that is similar to the new content being released by nintendo.)

 

[LancerStaff]

I'm sure if you factor in the amount of people who play competitively, the ones who eventually want to but haven't really dove in yet, the people who like to watch competitive play but don't participate, and the people who don't mind the game being competitive but still play casually, then you will probably get a percentage much higher than 1%. The way you put it just makes it seem as if the other 99% hate competitive play making it obsolete when that probably is nowhere near the case.

The average smasher doesn't care, a good portion hates competitive play/tiers/"techniques," and an incredibly small amount of casual players are in support of it. I have no way to determine that number, but most of them would probably be on Smashboards anyway.

Like it or not, this >1% of competitive players doesn't matter much. Even fewer are unhappy with SSB4. I'll be generous and call it a half a percent. Would Sakurai rehaul the game in attempt to please an extreme minority? I wouldn't.

Still easy money to be had friend.

Most competitives are buying it anyway. Way more then half, I'd say. Should Sakurai either A: Attempt to please an unpleaseable crowd by rehauling the game and sinking even more time and money into it, or B: Make the game as planned and have all but .3%, at most, of people skip the game.

 

[Xigger]

Still easy money to be had friend.

Maybe I'm a bit naive, but big cash money wads comes from game sales and ticket sales for tournaments.

Nintendo won't tell Sakurai to make the game differently, as they never (admittedly) have, but they hosted a tournament all the same.

Catering to competitive gameplay isn't quite the same as hosting a competitive tournament, especially with Dark Horse Nintendo.

 

[Z1GMA]

Brawl Ganon with a Laser Sword...

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Getting real sick of seeing the snide "Sakurai sucks at balancing" comments. He balances this game for FFA because that is the most popular mode. Why is that? Because this game's player base is 99% casual. That's not even arguable. It would be incredibly stupid to ask for pro players to help balance these games. He's been doing an impeccable job if you realize who he is catering to. I know it sucks for us, but it's the smart thing to do.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Getting real sick of seeing the snide "Sakurai sucks at balancing" comments. He balances this game for FFA because that is the most popular mode. Why is that? Because this game's player base is 99% casual. That's not even arguable. It would be incredibly stupid to ask for pro players to help balance these games. He's been doing an impeccable job if you realize who he is catering to. I know it sucks for us, but it's the smart thing to do.

Do you seriously believe Melee and Brawl are impeccably balanced at any level of play?

 

[kazrisk]

Do you seriously believe Melee and Brawl are impeccably balanced at any level of play?

 

[viewtifulduck82]

Do you seriously believe Melee and Brawl are impeccably balanced at any level of play?

Do you seriously think the vast majority of the fanbase sees balance the way we can?

 

[Saikyoshi]

Even when I was an active, extremist casual ("Damn the tiers! Damn the tourneytards! I'll win EVO using a Wii Zapper and show them they're not so tough! I'll make them all bow down to me!", said my younger self), I hated Free-for-all even then. There were way too many things going on the screen at once and it just generally wasn't enjoyable.

So I seriously doubt it's more popular than one-on-one.

 

[Hydde]

I'm sure if you factor in the amount of people who play competitively, the ones who eventually want to but haven't really dove in yet, the people who like to watch competitive play but don't participate, and the people who don't mind the game being competitive but still play casually, then you will probably get a percentage much higher than 1%.

This.

What sakuari is missing is that casual players dont care about anything, they will just play the game. Casual players will not go to tournies, they will instead enjoy the game with their friedns and families at reunions and thats it. Pretty much how it was with Melee, 64 and Brawl.

Sak is being just too overcautious with this whole "competitive-casual" thing.

If the game is good, EVERYONE will play it..... but competitive players will make their oturnies in the darkness and enjoy i anyways. The same with casuas.

Sakurai eneds to understand this.

 

[SKM_NeoN]

Do you seriously think the vast majority of the fanbase sees balance the way we can?

No, they can't. That's why Sakurai should balance the cast for competitive play, because the casuals will not know the difference one way or the other.

 

[NoiseHERO]

This.

What sakuari is missing is that casual players dont care about anything, they will just play the game. Casual players will not go to tournies, they will instead enjoy the game with their friedns and families at reunions and thats it. Pretty much how it was with Melee, 64 and Brawl.

Sak is being just too overcautious with this whole "competitive-casual" thing.

If the game is good, EVERYONE will play it..... but competitive players will make their oturnies in the darkness and enjoy i anyways. The same with casuas.

Sakurai eneds to understand this.

I get the impression he doesn't care that much at all/hasn't put much thought into "competitive" "scene" from way he always talks about it in random interviews. His main focus being "I want everyone to stand a chance at any skill level" which makes no sense but he's Sakurai and he see's his own creation as more of a party game. So people will have to keep learning to work with they got like that competitive scene brawl got or something.

Unfortunately.

Then while expecting this super hyped game that everyone's been dying to play to be a clone of a wii game that's modded to be a clone of a gamecube game we can badmouth it for not being how we wanted after being invited to the gaming event of the year to be one of the first plebeians to play it then lose to a camper then delete our untasteful comment off twitter after it gets INTERNET BACKDRAFT.

 

[Second Power]

The average smasher doesn't care, a good portion hates competitive play/tiers/"techniques," and an incredibly small amount of casual players are in support of it. I have no way to determine that number, but most of them would probably be on Smashboards anyway.

I've never met anyone who hated competitive smash off the internet. My 12 year old brother watches Project M streams with me, all my classmates who played Smash loved Project M (in some of our classes where we had computers and time to goof off, we watched PM and Melee games). I've never once seen hate off of comment sections.

 

[RascalTheCharizard]

Getting real sick of seeing the snide "Sakurai sucks at balancing" comments. He balances this game for FFA because that is the most popular mode. Why is that? Because this game's player base is 99% casual. That's not even arguable. It would be incredibly stupid to ask for pro players to help balance these games. He's been doing an impeccable job if you realize who he is catering to. I know it sucks for us, but it's the smart thing to do.

Like FFA with Items is balanced. Sonic is notorious in that mode because his blitzing dash speed combined with the vertical boost from his Spring allows him to go wherever he wants, when he wants. Sonic can hog every item to himself, which allows him to ignore his only glaring "1v1 no items" flaw; his lack of KO power as he can just rely on powerful items to defeat opponents. Then you factor in how Sonic has the near indisputably BEST Final Smash in the game (which he once again, can easily get before anyone else can even reach the Smash Ball) and we have ourselves an S tier character at a "casual" level.

 

[Tristan_win]

There's something I would like to point out... Just because most people don't play smash competitively DOES NOT mean they aren't effected by the competitive scene. A good example is Melee and it's wavedashing. Now a days you would be hard press to find someone who played a decent amount of melee and not know about wavedashing. What's even stranger is that some of these same people don't know that smash is played competitively. They learned about wavedashing though friends or 'figure it out' on their own and never use it but they know what it is.

Another good example is Brawl and Meta knight. It seems almost universal knowledge that Meta knight is the best character, it might seem overwhelming obvious to us now but when we first got the game we didn't know that but these people do even after only a few hours of play.

My point being even though we make up 1% of the sales we effect a much larger percent tile. We have a mostly unified voice and due to our tiers, advance techniques and opinions we effect I dare say close to half if not more of the people who buy this game on some level.

 

[LancerStaff]

I've never met anyone who hated competitive smash off the internet. My 12 year old brother watches Project M streams with me, all my classmates who played Smash loved Project M (in some of our classes where we had computers and time to goof off, we watched PM and Melee games). I've never once seen hate off of comment sections.

You should of seen the faces of the Smash-Fest players when I brought up ZeRo's tier list. Like, the whole store went silent.

Your experience in finding anti-competives means nothing, as does mine.

 

[Wazygoose]

More than just Sakurai wanting to make Smash a game that appeals to the largest amount of people, I think he also just doesn't want to make a competitive game. He's made comments in the past about how a small group of hardcore players will play a fighting game long after it's released, and said he doesn't enjoy the idea making a game that appeals to that small, hardcore group. He went on to talk about how he shouldn't listen to the most vocal 1% and think it represents everyone who actually enjoys the game. In fact, I'd go so far as to say he slightly despises that 1% because of all the flak they give to game designers.

While he is focused on making Smash a party game, I think his goals are at odds with what Nintendo of NA want the game to be--competitive, like a FPS, RTS, whathaveyou. I don't know how much creative control he has over a game that is so far the one true console-seller of the Wii U, but I'd wager that he mostly has his own ideas but receives pressure from the outside. If Smash4 gets modifications that make the game faster, with more combos, more balanced for 1v1, all that stuff, it won't be because Sakurai himself wanted to do it, but because of overwhelming feedback from up on high that he couldn't ignore. Still, it's his baby.

 

[TheMagicalKuja]

No, they can't. That's why Sakurai should balance the cast for competitive play, because the casuals will not know the difference one way or the other.

It'd be inaccurate to say that casuals can't tell the difference completely. If that were the case, they would't care about tripping, or Brawl's slow speed. Even they noticed those things, and several casuals have mentioned going back to Melee and noticing its high speed despite not even fighting a competitive player.

Sakurai *should* balance it for competitive play, but not exclusively so.

 

[Tristan_win]

I wonder, beyond extreme changes to the game formula is it even possible to make this game only for competitive play? What would it take for smash to be only acceptable to competitive scene and not casual players?

 

[yume_nikki]

I wonder, beyond extreme changes to the game formula is it even possible to make this game only for competitive play? What would it take for smash to be only acceptable to competitive scene and not casual players?

Just put l-cancel in the how to play tutorial, together with all the other basic stuff like attacking, jumping, shielding, etc. I guess that would discourage most casual players.
Also, removing all the features unused in competitive play (items, banned stages, time/stamina/coin matches…) would help.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Except doing that would make the game horrible even to us because we could never change things up in our downtime.

For goodness' sakes, the more I listen to you guys, the more embarrassed I am to be competitive...

 

[yume_nikki]

Except doing that would make the game horrible even to us because we could never change things up in our downtime.

For goodness' sakes, the more I listen to you guys, the more embarrassed I am to be competitive...

Lol, I'm not saying that removing all those options is a good idea. Is a pretty bad one, in fact. Personally, I wouldn't support such a decision.

I'm just answering his question. Do you want to ruin smash for non-competitive players without great changes to the formula? I think that's the easiest way.

 

[Saikyoshi]

It's still something I needed to say. Trust me, your post is not the only one I was referring to.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Do you seriously believe Melee and Brawl are impeccably balanced at any level of play?

Street Fighter 4 is honestly the only time I thought a fighter had solid balance.

Compared to a lot of them Melee and Brawl, even with Brawl MK, are better off than a lot of fighters.

 

[Saikyoshi]

Case in point: Marvel Vs. Capcom 2, with its valid roster of four. Yet it's still considered one of the greatest fighting games ever made.

 

[smashbroskilla]

Nintendo is trying to get more into the competitive scene as shown through the tournament.

I'll be the one to say it. That tournament was bull**** and boring to watch. The forced hype from prog and D1 was awkward and embarrassing to listen to.

 

[Saikyoshi]

I'll be the one to say it. That tournament was bull**** and boring to watch. The forced hype from prog and D1 was awkward and embarrassing to listen to.

Yeah, those two were easily the worst things about it. Especially since they couldn't identify any of the assist trophies.

 

[LeeYawshee]

I just liked seeing underdogs win. I kept wanting to see Bowser win a match. It wasn't Project M hype but it was nice to see all the same.

Also, last I heard, the balance team doesnot use items to balance. And here's a fun fact: Sakurai entered an 100 man tourney a long time ago featuring street fighter 2 and won. I have never played SF2 but that's still pretty impressive for the man everyone thinks doesn't know competitive. Quite honestly, I don't know why I bother defending Sakurai. I believe everything I say but I feel like it goes right through most of you and it is sad. Oh, and Sakurai said he will patch the game for bg bugs and balance issues as long as he fnds a way to make sure it doesn't interfere with oline play.

 

[smashbroskilla]

I believe everything I say but I feel like it goes right through most of you and it is sad. Oh, and Sakurai said he will patch the game for bg bugs and balance issues as long as he fnds a way to make sure it doesn't interfere with oline play.

I'm glad you look up to him as a god. He's perfectly capable of making mistakes as well. Patches cost money and a lot of times are not hotfixed. Both of which Nintendo barely has and never does. Take a guess how many updates Brawl got. I'll wait for the final version and I'm still going to buy it regardless of how it plays. It might just collect dust like my copy of brawl does.

 

[Hydde]

I'm glad you look up to him as a god. He's perfectly capable of making mistakes as well. Patches cost money and a lot of times are not hotfixed. Both of which Nintendo barely has and never does. Take a guess how many updates Brawl got. I'll wait for the final version and I'm still going to buy it regardless of how it plays. It might just collect dust like my copy of brawl does.

Sad but true.

in januray, i reunityed with a bunch of friends who used to play a lot of melee and brawel with me years ago....
they came to my house and we planned to play brawl to remember old times... and guess what.... i was not able to find my brawl copy.. i lost it and i dont gave a ***.

but luckily i had my melee copy around and we enjoyed the good game.

It saddens me that i lost my brawl copy.... and i dont give an F

 

[LeeYawshee]

I'm glad you look up to him as a god. He's perfectly capable of making mistakes as well. Patches cost money and a lot of times are not hotfixed. Both of which Nintendo barely has and never does. Take a guess how many updates Brawl got. I'll wait for the final version and I'm still going to buy it regardless of how it plays. It might just collect dust like my copy of brawl does.

You misunderstand me, I don't see Sakurai as a God. I just acknowledge what he does. And I never said he doesn't make mistakes. Brawl was not a good Smash for competitive play. I can't even play it without mods because it's so slow and boring. Even the single player modes are boring. Also, they never patch games? You need to get acquainted with Pokemon X and Y and Mario and Luigi Dream Team.

 

[KieRanaRan]

I wonder, beyond extreme changes to the game formula is it even possible to make this game only for competitive play? What would it take for smash to be only acceptable to competitive scene and not casual players?

The very nature of Super Smash Bros. makes it impossible for it to be a 100%, through-and-through competitive game. It is, and always has been, a party game. Sure competitive players play and enjoy it too (with some added rules and limitations), but the games have always been targeted at the casual player.

 

[SmashBro99]

Smash is a casual party game. He doesn't need to make it perfect for 1v1 no items final destination or battlefield. I enjoy playing with those rules sometimes, but it's not to be taken seriously imo.

There are real fighting games out there for that.

Keep up the good work Mr. Sakurai.

 

[KieRanaRan]

You misunderstand me, I don't see Sakurai as a God. I just acknowledge what he does. And I never said he doesn't make mistakes. Brawl was not a good Smash. I can't even play it without mods because it's so slow and boring. Even the single player modes are boring. Also, they never patch games? You need to get acquainted with Pokemon X and Y and Mario and Luigi Dream Team.

Brawl was a fantastic Smash. It was critically acclaimed across the board and was commercially very successful.

 

[LeeYawshee]

Brawl was a fantastic Smash. It was critically acclaimed across the board and was commercially very successful.

I'm not good with words, so I fixed the past post.

 

[Dracometeor]

Even when I was an active, extremist casual ("Damn the tiers! Damn the tourneytards! I'll win EVO using a Wii Zapper and show them they're not so tough! I'll make them all bow down to me!", said my younger self), I hated Free-for-all even then. There were way too many things going on the screen at once and it just generally wasn't enjoyable.

So I seriously doubt it's more popular than one-on-one.

I thought so to, considering my friends brother and I all prefer to play 1 on 1. Sometimes FFA but we would play bigger stages where we could seperate into two 1v1 matches. Mostly if we had more then 4 people over. Nobody likes waiting

However I went to a small party yesterday and I was early and this other guy was setting up the wii and invited me to play. After playing few rounds of Mario Kart he insisted we play brawl. Now I haven't played brawl in a long time, love project M though. But he left the room to get some food and told me I could set the game up... So I change it to 4 stock turn off items(they only had pokeball assist trophies smash balls on low) and pick my character. He comes back picks his character and starts the game.

Now we hit random and get distant planet. I'm just kind of messing around doing some basic mario stuff. He kills me with the water stage hazard and he got excited. I came back did a little combo and got him etc.

After a minute he starts wondering where the items are and I tell him they're off, doesn't get mad just says some things about not being as fun. I'm entirely just messing around now, just doing some grabs and stuff. The bulborb ends up eating me with us both at 1 stock and he wins.

This is when I get confused. He starts asking why it was 1v1? He says he doesn't like that and it's more fun with more people. So he turns on Computers a level 3 and 4. Turns items back on and we play some more. Now I play some dedede and I'm trying to be nice and just killing computers and letting him camp and save his lives.

So he ends up finishing me. Then we go to the score screen and he's freaking out about how I got so many kills(9) compared to everyone's 2-3. I switch to Ike and same thing. He's winning though and I'm not bullying him or anything. So he says we should just play time so that we can see who is really better... Time. So I say uh ok. But I don't want to be mean so I start playing lightweights and just doing damage while letting him finish the kos. He keeps winning and gets happier.

Anyways I didn't think ANYONE would want to play FFA with 2 computers...it was interesting, let alone timed matches. When other people showed up it was the same thing. I was confused.

 

[kazrisk]

I thought so to, considering my friends brother and I all prefer to play 1 on 1. Sometimes FFA but we would play bigger stages where we could seperate into two 1v1 matches. Mostly if we had more then 4 people over. Nobody likes waiting

However I went to a small party yesterday and I was early and this other guy was setting up the wii and invited me to play. After playing few rounds of Mario Kart he insisted we play brawl. Now I haven't played brawl in a long time, love project M though. But he left the room to get some food and told me I could set the game up... So I change it to 4 stock turn off items(they only had pokeball assist trophies smash balls on low) and pick my character. He comes back picks his character and starts the game.

Now we hit random and get distant planet. I'm just kind of messing around doing some basic mario stuff. He kills me with the water stage hazard and he got excited. I came back did a little combo and got him etc.

After a minute he starts wondering where the items are and I tell him they're off, doesn't get mad just says some things about not being as fun. I'm entirely just messing around now, just doing some grabs and stuff. The bulborb ends up eating me with us both at 1 stock and he wins.

This is when I get confused. He starts asking why it was 1v1? He says he doesn't like that and it's more fun with more people. So he turns on Computers a level 3 and 4. Turns items back on and we play some more. Now I play some dedede and I'm trying to be nice and just killing computers and letting him camp and save his lives.

So he ends up finishing me. Then we go to the score screen and he's freaking out about how I got so many kills(9) compared to everyone's 2-3. I switch to Ike and same thing. He's winning though and I'm not bullying him or anything. So he says we should just play time so that we can see who is really better... Time. So I say uh ok. But I don't want to be mean so I start playing lightweights and just doing damage while letting him finish the kos. He keeps winning and gets happier.

Anyways I didn't think ANYONE would want to play FFA with 2 computers...it was interesting, let alone timed matches. When other people showed up it was the same thing. I was confused.

Shouldn't have let him win. You should have awoken the competitive side in him. Should have destroyed him on every stage he picked with every item on just to show him you meant business.