Ryu matchup

[Emblem Lord]

Wanna know what I see when I see your vids?

A strong mewtwo vs an unoptimized Ryu.

BTW...that Metros dude...is that his full tag? Just curious.

But yeah your footsies is like...non-existent. Hadouken by itself Mewtwo will just laugh at that. I see alot of shielding from you when there is no reason for it. No walking to space yourself. You have some good empty hop baits but you dont convert them into much when Mewtwo whiffs. idk. I dont feel your vid proves much.

The tools that Mewtwo uses to space Ryu are not scary.

Dtilt does 4 damage and will straight up lose to Ryus d-smash everytime. Shadowball isnt good at zoning. Its good for traps.

I am literally watching you let Mewtwo get away with airdodges to the ground and he isnt dying for it.
@ Browny seriously..what the ****?

Also were these matches online? If so can I fight this dude? I stay trying to get stronger!!!

Also if anyone is on now I got about an hour before i gotta leave for sktar.

 

[Metros]

Why does everybody assume I'm a guy?

 

[Emblem Lord]

I assume everyone is androgynous until shown otherwise.

Saying guy is less rude then saying it. But only slightly.

 

[Metros]

I assume everyone is androgynous until shown otherwise.

Saying guy is less rude then saying it. But only slightly.

I just find it funny.

 

[Browny]

Wanna know what I see when I see your vids?

A strong mewtwo vs an unoptimized Ryu.

BTW...that Metros dude...is that his full tag? Just curious.

But yeah your footsies is like...non-existent. Hadouken by itself Mewtwo will just laugh at that. I see alot of shielding from you when there is no reason for it. No walking to space yourself. You have some good empty hop baits but you dont convert them into much when Mewtwo whiffs. idk. I dont feel your vid proves much.

The tools that Mewtwo uses to space Ryu are not scary.

Dtilt does 4 damage and will straight up lose to Ryus d-smash everytime. Shadowball isnt good at zoning. Its good for traps.

I am literally watching you let Mewtwo get away with airdodges to the ground and he isnt dying for it.
@ Browny seriously..what the ****?

Also were these matches online? If so can I fight this dude? I stay trying to get stronger!!!

Also if anyone is on now I got about an hour before i gotta leave for sktar.

My Ryu is indeed unoptimized, I don't main him. However these is no matchup inexperience between us there, so thats worth something.

I guess the shielding is respecting Mewtwos dash attack which is pretty effective at stopping a lot of approaches, it functions really similar to peaches.

I feel like getting a bunch of frame data on dtilts safety on shield now... They were offline matches btw.

---

In a 'footsie' battle Im confident Mewtwo has the upper hand with dtilt alone with respect to frame data and hitbox extension.

Dtilt straight up has more range than Ryus dsmash while being only 1 frame slower.
Dtilt is 100% safe on block at max range, almost the entirety of the thicker tail tip.

At mid range or less it is punishable by Ryus dsmash with roughly a 3-5 frame window.

In a raw dtilt vs dsmash battle its purely who extends their hitbox first. If Ryu dsmashes in anticipation a few frames before Mewtwos dtilt comes out, Ryu is going to get clipped. Further to this due to the sweeping motion of both of their moves, its pretty much impossible to reliably trade against mewtwos tail tip since the attacks will clank if you hit ryus leg instead of his foot.

Yes dsmash will win the damage trade if you manage to get tip vs tip but its highly unsafe and Mewtwo beats that with disable, confusion and shadowball if he doesnt feel like dtilting. Ryu can definitely box Mewtwo once hes in, like Ryu does to every character in the game but Mewtwo mains should know their spacing. They should know this anyway vs all of the cast, very few have any answer to the max spaced dtilt.

Ryu has literally one option to punish the spaced dtilt which requires an extremely tight frame window and spacing (seeing as a lot of Mewtwos dtilt is disjointed). This option is highly unsafe and opens him up to a heavy punishment/KO if he misses.

 

[meleebrawler]

OK here are 3 of the better vids we recorded without anyone SD'ing or other silly mistakes. We got a lot of powershields lol.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOtm77NhSgE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZljzoGtmrw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6QnYDHwOX4

As I said, I'm not a Ryu main, but I do use him a bit. I am aware that I need to stop trying to get jab cancel combos.

From my perspective this is what it feels like;

Proper use of hadouken is next to impossible to reflect with confusion, its too fast and allows for pretty cheap damage. Attempting to 'control space' with it is a liability because shadowball will rip through it and kill you or its easily reflected back.

The sheild knockback when dtilting Mewtwos shield is enough to put him out of your range, and instead you are in range for a Mewtwo dtilt oos. Its really difficult to space out Mewtwo with this when Ryu has no answer to a spaced Mewtwo dtilt on your shield. To be fair though, hardly any characters have an answer to that.

Having a FCSB in hand really cuts down Ryus approaches, he has nothing safe.

Mewtwos nair rips through focus attack when used as a cross up for landing. Just throw that move out.

utilt-usmash or even strong utilt is probably Ryus best killing option overall, its not that much weaker than shoryuken and isnt highly punishable.

I play a whole bunch of characters and its clear to me which ones have an advantage over Mewtwo, there is a lot of them. Ryu is not on that list. I find this to be the most difficult character to beat Mewtwo with of anyone in the game. Ryu's combos are just so difficult to start on a Mewtwo that is walling him out. Ryu has his usual strength of early KO's and powerful hits but it feels like what makes him excel in certain matchups is just too difficult to implement vs a Mewtwo spacing you out and camping you and of course, Mewtwo has the stupidly powerful punishes if you ever mess up with Ryu, a naturally punishable character like Marth.

When I think of the two characters playing optimally, I see Ryu obviously punishing hard and getting shoyuken every chance he gets. But optimal Mewtwo playstyle should literally never see that happen. I feel it is in Mewtwos favour. If Mewtwo gets a stock lead, Ryu is susceptible to getting opened up way too easily when going for a KO and Mewtwo has absolutely no need to drop anything unsafe on Ryus shield which is the only way Mewtwo is going to die besides taking a nair approach to the face, but that shouldn't happen. On the other hand, if Ryu gets the stock lead, Mewtwo has multiple safe KO options on Ryu with edgeguarding, shadowball or throw KO's, nothing that really risks taking a lot of damage if punished.

The question to what Ryu does when Mewtwo is spacing him: just dsmash, right? Well...

While it's fast and does good damage for said speed, it's relatively one of his least rewarding options due to not leading into combos and not killing well except charged near the edge. Even having it shielded isn't great against Mewtwo despite not being punishable, since it pushes him back outside footsie range which is where Mewtwo would rather be. It's more of a desperation move on Ryu's part than anything.

The more I think about this matchup, the more it reminds me of Dhalsim vs. Ryu. On paper, Ryu seems to have Dhalsim/Mewtwo beat in most ways: he hits harder, has better combos and lives much longer. Basically, there's no reason to believe Mewtwo should ever win in a straight fight with Ryu. Though, unlike Dhalsim, Mewtwo doesn't move slower (he's got the floatiness down, however) and can get some mean punishes without meter (he also can't hit with normals across the screen, but whatever.

So with all of that in mind, Mewtwo definitely does not want to be the aggressor most of the time, instead keeping his distance zoning with his shadow balls, (admittedly only slightly) better mobility and teleport, chipping away at Ryu's health while keeping a lookout for bold approaches on his part that Mewtwo can punish.

Stick and move is the best way to describe Mewtwo's strategy here. He has the range to engage footsies when he wants to and it can be profitable, but it isn't wise for him to try it for too long.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Idk who wins this. To be honest I dont even care rly lol. My goal is to get stronger and increase my knowledge. What irked me was the incorrect information being spewed out about Ryu.

Also D-smash isnt all Ryu has vs D-tilt but it seems you are all set in your thoughts.

*Shrug

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

@ meleebrawler has your thoughts on the MU changed? I heard you and EL got some sets in.

 

[meleebrawler]

@ meleebrawler has your thoughts on the MU changed? I heard you and EL got some sets in.

I lost a lot, but that was because @ Emblem Lord outplayed me by a significant margin, not because I couldn't do a thing to Ryu.

Still think Mewtwo wants to play keepaway and wait for Ryu to make a move, but @ Emblem Lord showed me how difficult it can be when you know all of his options. Still, it's a player issue, not so much the character. There isn't a lot Ryu can get away with abusing without risking a big punish from Mewtwo.

As important as it is to keep your distance though, it's also crucial that you do not let Ryu take center stage or else he will severely restrict your options, though this goes for everyone in the cast. Luckily Mewtwo's throws are good at taking that away from him.

Battlefield is less than ideal since Ryu will keep himself on the main platform most of the time not letting Mewtwo exercise his strong platform game, but it's not terrible. Landing on platforms with Shoryuken still puts him at a disadvantage even with little lag.

Stages with platforms off the main one are good since Mewtwo can teleport to them in order to escape pressure and get some charging time. Ryu can't really get you safely there.

tl;dr: No need to fear every Ryu, fear the good players.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I lost a lot, but that was because @ Emblem Lord outplayed me by a significant margin, not because I couldn't do a thing to Ryu.

Still think Mewtwo wants to play keepaway and wait for Ryu to make a move, but @ Emblem Lord showed me how difficult it can be when you know all of his options. Still, it's a player issue, not so much the character. There isn't a lot Ryu can get away with abusing without risking a big punish from Mewtwo.

As important as it is to keep your distance though, it's also crucial that you do not let Ryu take center stage or else he will severely restrict your options, though this goes for everyone in the cast. Luckily Mewtwo's throws are good at taking that away from him.

Battlefield is less than ideal since Ryu will keep himself on the main platform most of the time not letting Mewtwo exercise his strong platform game, but it's not terrible. Landing on platforms with Shoryuken still puts him at a disadvantage even with little lag.

Stages with platforms off the main one are good since Mewtwo can teleport to them in order to escape pressure and get some charging time. Ryu can't really get you safely there.

tl;dr: No need to fear every Ryu, fear the good players.

I don't really agree with your tldr. Ryu should be feared and he punish you a lot of harder than you punish him. Also I'm not even sure if mewtwo can punish platform canceled srk. Also keep him mind regular landing lag on srk is -12. So your options to punish it are very limited.

 

[meleebrawler]

I don't really agree with your tldr. Ryu should be feared and he punish you a lot of harder than you punish him. Also I'm not even sure if mewtwo can punish platform canceled srk. Also keep him mind regular landing lag on srk is -12. So your options to punish it are very limited.

I'm not saying you punish shoryu on a platform right away, but he's still on a platform above you which puts unwanted pressure on him.

There are very few characters in this game that can match Ryu's punish game. Yes, you will lose a toe-to-toe fight with him most of the time which is why Mewtwo needs to employ all of his mobility tricks and superior zoning to keep him off balance. The margin for error may be smaller on Mewtwo's side but if you can keep Ryu guessing while coming for you you'll be on the right track to winning.

Ask @ Emblem Lord . He said so himself that he had to concentrate really hard to get me.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It's not like Ryu can Jab into up b and kill Mewtwo at ridiculous percents. I think Ryu just has more options in this MU and while Mewtwo can win some, Ryu just has the upper hand. I think this MU is probably 55/45 Ryu's favor or at most 60/40 Ryu.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It's not like Ryu can Jab into up b and kill Mewtwo at ridiculous percents. I think Ryu just has more options in this MU and while Mewtwo can win some, Ryu just has the upper hand. I think this MU is probably 55/45 Ryu's favor or at most 60/40 Ryu.

I think jab 1 into up b works but fair dtilt utilt and nair all combo into srk. Depending on rage and the stage you can die sub 70 percent vs him. On town and city he's probably confirming into kills on you at 80 percent.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I think jab 1 into up b works but fair dtilt utilt and nair all combo into srk. Depending on rage and the stage you can die sub 70 percent vs him. On town and city he's probably confirming into kills on you at 80 percent.

I THINK Sonicninja was being sarcastic.

I say think..because it IS the intrawebs so you can never be too sure.

 

[Browny]

There are very few characters in this game that can match Ryu's punish game.

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ryus punish game on people who land moves on his shield is the best, yes. But thats it. There are many other hard punish opportunities where Ryu isnt the best at. (remember you cant true srk oos)

tbh Id say ZSS has the best punish game with a block into dsmash able to kill at like, 20% on some characters via downb or uair uair upb or just her raw upb oos which only kills a little later than shoryuken. Mewtwos punish game is pretty ridiculous itself and I would honestly say its top tier around wario/zss level.

Disable is a few frames faster than her downb and confirms into usmash KOs at very comparable percents to srk/boost kick and shadow ball can punish all sorts of moves with a KO that few characters can do. It can punish a needle stack and kill sheik from mid stage at like 90% with a little rage lol.

People need to remember that there are other options you can do to rack up damage on or KO Ryu that doesnt involve landing a fair on his shield at high %. Ryu cant abuse his punish game if you DONT LET HIM.

 

[meleebrawler]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ryus punish game on people who land moves on his shield is the best, yes. But thats it. There are many other hard punish opportunities where Ryu isnt the best at. (remember you cant true srk oos)

tbh Id say ZSS has the best punish game with a block into dsmash able to kill at like, 20% on some characters via downb or uair uair upb or just her raw upb oos which only kills a little later than shoryuken. Mewtwos punish game is pretty ridiculous itself and I would honestly say its top tier around wario/zss level.

Disable is a few frames faster than her downb and confirms into usmash KOs at very comparable percents to srk/boost kick and shadow ball can punish all sorts of moves with a KO that few characters can do. It can punish a needle stack and kill sheik from mid stage at like 90% with a little rage lol.

People need to remember that there are other options you can do to rack up damage on or KO Ryu that doesnt involve landing a fair on his shield at high %. Ryu cant abuse his punish game if you DONT LET HIM.

Good Ryus punish things on shield. The best Ryus use the correct move to outright beat your assault and do high damage in the process.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

ughhhhhhhhhhhhhh

Ryus punish game on people who land moves on his shield is the best, yes. But thats it. There are many other hard punish opportunities where Ryu isnt the best at. (remember you cant true srk oos)

tbh Id say ZSS has the best punish game with a block into dsmash able to kill at like, 20% on some characters via downb or uair uair upb or just her raw upb oos which only kills a little later than shoryuken. Mewtwos punish game is pretty ridiculous itself and I would honestly say its top tier around wario/zss level.

Disable is a few frames faster than her downb and confirms into usmash KOs at very comparable percents to srk/boost kick and shadow ball can punish all sorts of moves with a KO that few characters can do. It can punish a needle stack and kill sheik from mid stage at like 90% with a little rage lol.

People need to remember that there are other options you can do to rack up damage on or KO Ryu that doesnt involve landing a fair on his shield at high %. Ryu cant abuse his punish game if you DONT LET HIM.

I'm going to have to call you out on this BS. A 20 frame OoS move isn't a good options. That'd be like saying mewtwo dsmash is a good OoS option. If you going to say jab up b or utilt OoS I'll agree with you....but dsmash....can't agree with you on that.

 

[Browny]

I said there are other punish options besides oos.

What about punishing a spotdodge? Punishing an airdodge? Punishing a projectile throw or punishing a whiffed long range smash like DKs. Shoryuken is almost useless at punishing these.

Mewtwos usmash oos is actually really fast but a little bit risky, overall he covers those other 4 really well with nair/shadowball. Even ZSS, the ridiculous punishing monster doesnt have any reliable punishes on projectile throws although her spotdodge, whiffed move and airdodge punishes are stupidly powerful.

To say that 'Ryu has the best punish game' or anything along those lines is completely ignoring at least 4 other punish opportunities which he is very weak at.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I said there are other punish options besides oos.

What about punishing a spotdodge? Punishing an airdodge? Punishing a projectile throw or punishing a whiffed long range smash like DKs. Shoryuken is almost useless at punishing these.

Mewtwos usmash oos is actually really fast but a little bit risky, overall he covers those other 4 really well with nair/shadowball. Even ZSS, the ridiculous punishing monster doesnt have any reliable punishes on projectile throws although her spotdodge, whiffed move and airdodge punishes are stupidly powerful.

To say that 'Ryu has the best punish game' or anything along those lines is completely ignoring at least 4 other punish opportunities which he is very weak at.

That may have been what you wantec to say but you clearly said block into dsmash is a great punish for SSS.

 

[Sonicninja115]

That may have been what you wantec to say but you clearly said block into dsmash is a great punish for SSS.

You can can't you? I remember seeing Nairo doing something similar though I don't remember where.

Edit: Hmm, on the other hand it probably won't work. As ZSS's Dsmash has twenty frames of startup lag. So it would be 28 frames to activate oos? If you perfect shield it goes down to 23or something but the point still stands that only the laggiest attack would be punished with that option.

 

[meleebrawler]

I said there are other punish options besides oos.

What about punishing a spotdodge? Punishing an airdodge? Punishing a projectile throw or punishing a whiffed long range smash like DKs. Shoryuken is almost useless at punishing these.

Mewtwos usmash oos is actually really fast but a little bit risky, overall he covers those other 4 really well with nair/shadowball. Even ZSS, the ridiculous punishing monster doesnt have any reliable punishes on projectile throws although her spotdodge, whiffed move and airdodge punishes are stupidly powerful.

To say that 'Ryu has the best punish game' or anything along those lines is completely ignoring at least 4 other punish opportunities which he is very weak at.

OK, maybe the better term for describing Ryu's punishes is reads. But Ryu has way more punishes than just shoryuken, that's just his strongest. Fair, bair, dsmash at a bit of a distance, hard neutral a, tatsumaki to power through reckless projectile usage...
All do a pretty significant amount of damage, but do need to be used at the right time to avoid being punished himself. Ryu's poor air deceleration means he absolutely cannot afford to be predictable on offence, since he can't fall back easily once he commits to something and said aerial restriction can easily result in him taking significant juggles.

Because of this, Ryu prefers being on the defensive, watching the opponent, controlling them until they do something he can beat back. It's up to Mewtwo to beat him at his own game, and make HIM the one making the punishable approaches.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It really depends on what you mean by punish. If you mean raw damage potential he is in the top 15. If you mean "can kill you at low percents if you make a mistake and do it consistently" then he is probably only second to ZSS. Wario would be second or Ganon but Wario needs waft so its not as consistent and Ganon lacks enough mobility to take advantage of any and every possible scenario where he could get a kill.

Also punishing doesnt just mean you block something and hit them.

There were times where @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY or @ meleebrawler would do a SH Nair or roll at a certain spacing and on reaction I would send them to oblivion with a SRK. Stuff like that is something Ryu truly accels at. He literally just needs one bad or predictable decision and sometimes its not even a bad decision. Just something he can purely react to and he can end the stock. Who else can reliably make that claim with an invincible kill move, that hits on frame 6 that can be done out of a run and b reversed?

Also you guys should be able to see @ Browny has made up his mind about Ryu at this point.

I mean dude said shoryuken is bad at punishing spot dodges. My mind has been blown.

Stop arguing with brickwalls guys. It accomplishes nothing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

It really depends on what you mean by punish. If you mean raw damage potential he is in the top 15. If you mean "can kill you at low percents if you make a mistake and do it consistently" then he is probably only second to ZSS. Wario would be second or Ganon but Wario needs waft so its not as consistent and Ganon lacks enough mobility to take advantage of any and every possible scenario where he could get a kill.

Also punishing doesnt just mean you block something and hit them.

There were times where @ A AlMoStLeGeNdArY or @ meleebrawler would do a SH Nair or roll at a certain spacing and on reaction I would send them to oblivion with a SRK. Stuff like that is something Ryu truly accels at. He literally just needs one bad or predictable decision and sometimes its not even a bad decision. Just something he can purely react to and he can end the stock. Who else can reliably make that claim with an invincible kill move, that hits on frame 6 that can be done out of a run and b reversed?

Also you guys shold be able to see @ Browny has made up his mind about Ryu at this point.

I mean dude said shoryuken is bad at punishing spot dodges. My mind has been blown.

Stop arguing with brickwalls guys. It accomplishes nothing.

If srk couldn't punish spot dodges or rolls I'd be a pretty happy camper. As it stands.....eff ryu.

 

[Rhus]

I responded to this a little while back and said I would elaborate and never did.

I would go on about what I think, but most of it has been covered by @ Emblem Lord and some of the Mewtwos here. I honestly think Mewtwo is just too unsafe against a character that has the kill and punish options he has. Mewtwo is also incredibly frail which worsens the situation.

Confusion and Shadow Ball cause issues for Ryu and Mewtwo's pretty great range and edgeguarding does allow for Mewtwo to have options in this matchup, but his frailty and bad hurtbox/rolls really works against him vs Ryu due to all his scary options when he makes a read or a quick punish.

I only played this MU a couple times so I may be astray here but I don't think it gets any better than 60:40 Ryu for Mewtwo.

 

[Browny]

Are you going to tell me that Shoryuken punishes spotdodges better than say, pikachus dsmash? or Lucas? or shulk or rob or ddd or anyones whos has literally more than ONE active frame. The idea isnt to stand still, wait for a spotdodge, then punish. because in that case you should have just charged up a smash attack, Mewtwos usmash is more powerful than shoryuken if youre doing that.

tbh my mind has been blown if you think a 1-frame active move is a good spotdodge punish. Plenty of characters in this game have powerful punishers if you predict a spotdodge, punishes that are quite safe themselves. Its not something you punish on reaction, you punish it on prediction. Seriously the idea of punishing spotdodges is to have an attack ready that
a) beats the spotdodge if it happens and
b) covers at least 1 other option at the same time, usually an attack

In order to achieve b) you need at least a few active frames on the move to counter the shield drop and no intangibility. By doing this your spotdodge punish actually now covers 3 scenarios with the shield drop tangilbility, attack and spotdodge recover tangibility. Do people understand why rest isnt the ultimate spotdodge punish in the world? Seriously how often do you see people bust that one out, its faster than shoryuken.

I actually watch a lot of Ryu matches, I watched a lot of this yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyWlyNPGh8o

And I went through it a bit just then and surprise surprise, no punishes on the spotdodges with shoryuken because its just too fast. There's no way people are reacting that fast, and inputting the command. You've got the average reaction speed of roughly 15 frames, time to physically move your fingers to the buttons to press it and the 6 frames until upb comes out, giving you a whopping 4 frames to move your fingers to up, b and pressing them to punish a spotdodge.

That's not happening in a real scenario and if it does, it was pure prediction.

In super theory bros Ryu beats everyone 100:0 because he just punishes everything with upb, but its not that simple in real life. You cant just conclude that Mewtwo is going to die early because hes always going to be landing unsafe moves on Ryus shield at 70%. Mewtwo isnt fox, he actually has more than 0 safe options to poke at and KO Ryu.

By all means, respect the move. But dont utterly disrespect yourself by adopting the self-defeating notion that you are always going to scrub out and landing fair ryus shield at 70%.

Treat it like you would the Ness matchup. When you are at like 90% or higher and you play to not get grabbed. Its not the hardest thing in the world to space Ness out. Space our Ryu and you wont set yourself up to get punished by shoryuken.

 

[Sonicninja115]

It seems to me that in order to punish with a true srk you need to read the spotdodge/roll and that you cannot react to it. The same is true for many punishes, few characters have the capabilities to punish a spotdodge on reaction "cough" shiek "cough" and even fewer with a smash/kill attack. If what I am reading is right, Browny is saying that true srk is bad at reacting to spotdodges, and EL is saying that true SRK is good at reading spotdodges. Anyways, as this thread has become a rip-fest instead of a ryu MU thread, please feel free to tear me apart.

Also, since Ryu relies on punishes/reads to kill, wouldn't it be best if mewtwo tried to bait out thes somewhat risky options in order to punish Ryu himself? I mean, mewtwo's dtilt combos are amazing and some can give a guaranteed 30% or more. Some even kill!

 

[meleebrawler]

It seems to me that in order to punish with a true srk you need to read the spotdodge/roll and that you cannot react to it. The same is true for many punishes, few characters have the capabilities to punish a spotdodge on reaction "cough" shiek "cough" and even fewer with a smash/kill attack. If what I am reading is right, Browny is saying that true srk is bad at reacting to spotdodges, and EL is saying that true SRK is good at reading spotdodges. Anyways, as this thread has become a rip-fest instead of a ryu MU thread, please feel free to tear me apart.

This is why it's important that you don't let Ryu take control of center stage: once he does it's a relatively straightforward affair for him to just wait and see you try something unsafe or predictable to escape.

To prevent him from doing this, it's important that you master all of Mewtwo's movement options; confusion, short-hop airdodges, teleport, shadow ball recoil, to keep him from getting a bead on you as well as keep him off-balance.

Also, since Ryu relies on punishes/reads to kill, wouldn't it be best if mewtwo tried to bait out thes somewhat risky options in order to punish Ryu himself? I mean, mewtwo's dtilt combos are amazing and some can give a guaranteed 30% or more. Some even kill!

That's pretty much what I've been trying to say this whole time. Let Ryu be the one making the risky approaches, not you. But don't do it by sitting in your shield either.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This is why it's important that you don't let Ryu take control of center stage: once he does it's a relatively straightforward affair for him to just wait and see you try something unsafe or predictable to escape.

To prevent him from doing this, it's important that you master all of Mewtwo's movement options; confusion, short-hop airdodges, teleport, shadow ball recoil, to keep him from getting a bead on you as well as keep him off-balance.



That's pretty much what I've been trying to say this whole time. Let Ryu be the one making the risky approaches, not you. But don't do it by sitting in your shield either.

Are these the only movement options that should be learned are their other stuff? Also I'd like to play you if possible we don't have to do mewtwo dittos but I'd like to see your mewtwo in action.

 

[meleebrawler]

Are these the only movement options that should be learned are their other stuff? Also I'd like to play you if possible we don't have to do mewtwo dittos but I'd like to see your mewtwo in action.

We can spar after my work, around 6:00. I'll message you when I'm ready.

 

[Pakky]

I have beaten every Ryu I've come across with ease. Then again I haven't fought many good ones.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Are you going to tell me that Shoryuken punishes spotdodges better than say, pikachus dsmash? or Lucas? or shulk or rob or ddd or anyones whos has literally more than ONE active frame. The idea isnt to stand still, wait for a spotdodge, then punish. because in that case you should have just charged up a smash attack, Mewtwos usmash is more powerful than shoryuken if youre doing that.

tbh my mind has been blown if you think a 1-frame active move is a good spotdodge punish. Plenty of characters in this game have powerful punishers if you predict a spotdodge, punishes that are quite safe themselves. Its not something you punish on reaction, you punish it on prediction. Seriously the idea of punishing spotdodges is to have an attack ready that
a) beats the spotdodge if it happens and
b) covers at least 1 other option at the same time, usually an attack

In order to achieve b) you need at least a few active frames on the move to counter the shield drop and no intangibility. By doing this your spotdodge punish actually now covers 3 scenarios with the shield drop tangilbility, attack and spotdodge recover tangibility. Do people understand why rest isnt the ultimate spotdodge punish in the world? Seriously how often do you see people bust that one out, its faster than shoryuken.

I actually watch a lot of Ryu matches, I watched a lot of this yesterday
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fyWlyNPGh8o

And I went through it a bit just then and surprise surprise, no punishes on the spotdodges with shoryuken because its just too fast. There's no way people are reacting that fast, and inputting the command. You've got the average reaction speed of roughly 15 frames, time to physically move your fingers to the buttons to press it and the 6 frames until upb comes out, giving you a whopping 4 frames to move your fingers to up, b and pressing them to punish a spotdodge.

That's not happening in a real scenario and if it does, it was pure prediction.

In super theory bros Ryu beats everyone 100:0 because he just punishes everything with upb, but its not that simple in real life. You cant just conclude that Mewtwo is going to die early because hes always going to be landing unsafe moves on Ryus shield at 70%. Mewtwo isnt fox, he actually has more than 0 safe options to poke at and KO Ryu.

By all means, respect the move. But dont utterly disrespect yourself by adopting the self-defeating notion that you are always going to scrub out and landing fair ryus shield at 70%.

Treat it like you would the Ness matchup. When you are at like 90% or higher and you play to not get grabbed. Its not the hardest thing in the world to space Ness out. Space our Ryu and you wont set yourself up to get punished by shoryuken.

By itself no. But if someone is next to me or close enough, catching a spotdodge with a normal canceled into SRK is not hard. And how Ryu gets that punish will vary depending on positioning and spacing.

And why do you keep saying SRK is active for one frame? Thats insane.

Also dont take what I say out of context. I did not say or imply Shoryuken was the best spotdodge punish in the game. I said it was one if not the best ways to close a stock if you can catch it.

I mean at SKTAR I closed a match on stream with a SRK through a SH fair from Ness on raw reaction. Now clearly a SH approach is easier to react to then a spotdodge, but it shows that yes Ryu does have an aspect to his meta that no one else can lay claim too. Even in my matches with the Mewtwos on the forums you can ask them or watch the vids where they did something in front of me and that mistake cost them a stock or even the match.

Can Ryu hit it everytime in every scenario? No. But its there. It's a threat and it demands respect.

 

[Sonicninja115]

So I guess a conclusion to the MU would be that Mewtwo needs to be wary of Ryu's punish game, and try to zone Ryu out. While doing this, Mewtwo should also be looking for opportunities to ledge-guard and punish with his, slightly harder and lees rewarding, punish game.

Other then that what does on-stage MU look like? I think that mewtwo has some better options, but I think that Ryu could challenge most of Mewtwo's moves with Fair or other aerials/tilts.

and I think that Mewtwo solidly wins off-stage, on account of his great bair and above-par recovery.

So would on-stage be 55/45 ryu's favor and off-stage be 60/40 Mewtwo's?

If so the MU would even out to 50/50, as on-stage is more prevalent. Thoughts?

 

[meleebrawler]

So I guess a conclusion to the MU would be that Mewtwo needs to be wary of Ryu's punish game, and try to zone Ryu out. While doing this, Mewtwo should also be looking for opportunities to ledge-guard and punish with his, slightly harder and lees rewarding, punish game.

Other then that what does on-stage MU look like? I think that mewtwo has some better options, but I think that Ryu could challenge most of Mewtwo's moves with Fair or other aerials/tilts.

and I think that Mewtwo solidly wins off-stage, on account of his great bair and above-par recovery.

So would on-stage be 55/45 ryu's favor and off-stage be 60/40 Mewtwo's?

If so the MU would even out to 50/50, as on-stage is more prevalent. Thoughts?

Seems about right. The match is really just two players trying to outwit and counter each other's options. Neither character can truly shut the other down. While Ryu generally needs fewer correct moves to win, Mewtwo has more mobility options to mix things up and is more adept at gimping.