Rumor Confirmed- Havok Physics in Brawl

[helterskelter]

A while back in EGM magazine there was a rumor saying that Brawl would have the Havok Physics engine. Well recently this has been confirmed on the official Havok site which can be found here.

http://www.havok.com/content/blogcategory/37/78/

Im not entirely sure what the Havok engine is, so could someone fill me in? How exactly will this effect Brawl?

 

[MzNetta]

I heard that its an engine that focuses on Characters physical interaction with other characters as well as their environment.
Also, its what allows characters to footstool jump and stand on moving crates...

Thank you, Samurai Panda ;D

 

[blayde_axel]

Yeah, from what I've seen, characters are technically a mass in the game and not just something to pass through. So they actually interact realistically with objects in the game. Thumbs up, because it was odd that in some screens for Melee, C. Falcon would be reaching in people's stomachs.

 

[helterskelter]

So how significant do you think this addition will be? Will it change the game alot? Or just make the interaction between the environment, items and characters a bit better?

 

[Bendu]

Havok is just simply a physics engine, it controls how things move and react with the environment. For one of the best examples, play Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion. In Oblivion many objects were able to be picked up (not simply placed into the inventory, but able to be tossed around ,placed in certain positions) and tossed about, arrows behaved realistically, bodies had ragdoll physics (anybody who's played Halo 2 will recognize ragdoll physics as well.)

Anyway, I think Havok will probably mostly affect item trajectories (pokeballs and whatnot) and probably a little bit of aerial movement, for example how a character reacts when tossed into a solid part of the stage. There more than likely won't be over the top ragdoll physics, thank god, because Brawl probably won't have an abundance of dead bodies.

Edit: Havok is much more than just making characters solid mass, by the way. You can kind of think of it as a set of rules, just like physics have rules. Havok is an engine that creates a set of physical rules for a virtual world.

 

[blayde_axel]

Well, I'm actually happy that it's been implemented. And I think that'll change the game, obviously. Look at he new tactics we've been given. The Footstool Stump!

And from the screenshots, it seems that they are focusing on the interaction with Crates and Barrels, also. So, maybe you could kick them for a quick explosion or something.

 

[Demon_machinE]

If the characters are now a ''mass'' and cannot pass through eachother, then that would be horrible for smashbros.

Why? Because when you're doing a 1v1 with a fast character like fox vs a swordsman like marth, and you KILL marth, and he comes back all invincible and stuff, you cant attack him. You gotta run. How are you gonna do that?

Are you gonna roll backwards and forwards like a gay noob? are you going to hang on the edge which can really put you in a bad position vs marth sometimes? Or are you going to simply run back and forth on the stage, dodging his attacks without worrying about colliding with marth himself.

If you bump into your opponent and you dont go anywhere, that forces you to jump over your invincible opponent, probably even double jump since a normal fullhop will probably get you punished anyway.

But once you land from jumping awkwardly over marth instead of just running through him, he'll probably grab you, chainthrow you, and tipper you a la M2k or Ken.

So I hope that you can still pass through characters while running. Remember that in both 64 and in melee you can ''push'' your opponent by walking very slowly. This is useful basically for positioning an opponent for a combo after having just broken his shield (See isai's ssb64 vids for details)

Anyhow, this havok thing sounds like its a quality physics system. I look forward to what it brings, I just hope it doesn't change what I mentioned above.

 

[Bendu]

I doubt you won't be able to run through (or past) opponents anymore. It would feel entirely too awkward to all Smash players. I have a feeling that Havok will mostly affect items. How they bounce, how they land, how far they fly after hitting something, how fast a barrel rolls, that kind of thing.

@blayde-axel: Barrels already have hitboxes and can be kicked to get an explosion. That's not what Havok does. Havok will make the barrel behave realistically in the stages (or to the realistic extent that the developers want. Since Brawl shouldn't be TOO realistic.)

 

[blayde_axel]

Your arguement's valid, demon, but if this is true, then it's all a part of evolving along with the game. Just getting used to all of the "flaws" in the game. Surprisingly, some people didn't like the change of pace with 64 and Melee, but they got used to it. Some people didn't like the new tactics (dunno why they wouldn't), but they got used to it. So we'd just have to change our strategies with the game. I mean... who wants to get Footstooled to death? Honestly?

@Bendu: I didn't mean that. lol. I guess I explained it wrong.

 

[Bendu]

Well I don't know what else you could mean, really. Basically, Smash already has physics. Items obviously are interactive and can be tossed about. But now, with Havok, they're just going to behave more realistically. That's really all it is.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Your arguement's valid, demon, but if this is true, then it's all a part of evolving along with the game. Just getting used to all of the "flaws" in the game. Surprisingly, some people didn't like the change of pace with 64 and Melee, but they got used to it. Some people didn't like the new tactics (dunno why they wouldn't), but they got used to it. So we'd just have to change our strategies with the game. I mean... who wants to get Footstooled to death? Honestly?

Yeah, I totally agree. this is a NEW game and there should be changes, lots of them. But the way I see it, things that were the same in both 64 and in melee, should remain in brawl since they werent removed in the sequel.

Adding new things? Heck, I want them to cram as much in there so that by the time I pick up brawl I feel like a noob.

But itd be nice to have the same BASICS that they had in ssb64 gameplay wise, that we still see in melee.

As for melee techniques? The only one I see being iffy is wavedashing. Airdodging has been confirmed by a screenshot, powershielding would be cool but its not a MUST.. spotdodging I hope is still in as I use it a lot.

Basically, brawl should rock no matter what since it's a smash game. But it shouldnt stray too far from what has already proved to be an awesome set of physics rules and gameplay techniques.

 

[Croco]

Sweet.. thanks for the news helterskelter.

 

[Revven]

Hmm...this'll be awesome then! But, what does this say about Wavedashing? Will it effect it a lot? Remove it completely? Because, after all, it was an exploit in the physics engine of Melee and now that it's a different one...what now?

 

[Yawgmoth]

From the website (http://www.havok.com/content/view/17/30/):

Havok Physics™ is a major innovation in game physics and sets the bar for next-generation games.

Based upon the award winning Havok Physics 2 SDK that has been licensed by over 70 clients and shipped in over 50 titles, Havok Physics introduces Continuous Physics™, an innovative technology that frees up production time by eliminating design limitations that stem from high-velocity game objects.

Unlike current generation physics systems, which utilize only discrete physics, Havok's Continuous Physics offers an extra level of integrity to your game, and removes restrictions and fix-ups that sap production time that restricts the design of your game.

Havok Physics also incorporates robust memory optimizations crucial for simulating physics in complex game environments on next-generation platforms.
Havok Physics provides comprehensive SDK support for the following areas:

* Collision Detection - including Continuous Physics™
* MOPP™ Technology - for compact representation of large collision meshes
* Dynamics and Constraint Solving
* Vehicle Dynamics
* Data Serialization and Art Tool Support
* Visual Debugger for in-game diagnostic feedback

It sounds like a tool to help the developers with programing the physics. I don't think you could predict how the game will turn out just from the fact that it uses it.

 

[blayde_axel]

Well, that's an argument... washdaving was an exploit in that aged engine, and now that there's a new one, it may be out. In my opinion, it's out. Then again, Sakurai is known for witnessing and acknowledging what people have found and would like in the game... something that most developers need to do.

 

[lanky_gunner]

ah, this is pretty good news. the Havok engine is one of the best out there. i'm guessing, like others have said before, the reason behind footstool jumping and standing on crates

off-topic, but would Guitar Hero 3 need a physics engine?

 

[Cygnus V Arcana]

If the characters are now a ''mass'' and cannot pass through eachother, then that would be horrible for smashbros.

Why? Because when you're doing a 1v1 with a fast character like fox vs a swordsman like marth, and you KILL marth, and he comes back all invincible and stuff, you cant attack him. You gotta run. How are you gonna do that?

Are you gonna roll backwards and forwards like a gay noob? are you going to hang on the edge which can really put you in a bad position vs marth sometimes? Or are you going to simply run back and forth on the stage, dodging his attacks without worrying about colliding with marth himself.

If you bump into your opponent and you dont go anywhere, that forces you to jump over your invincible opponent, probably even double jump since a normal fullhop will probably get you punished anyway.

But once you land from jumping awkwardly over marth instead of just running through him, he'll probably grab you, chainthrow you, and tipper you a la M2k or Ken.

So I hope that you can still pass through characters while running. Remember that in both 64 and in melee you can ''push'' your opponent by walking very slowly. This is useful basically for positioning an opponent for a combo after having just broken his shield (See isai's ssb64 vids for details)

Anyhow, this havok thing sounds like its a quality physics system. I look forward to what it brings, I just hope it doesn't change what I mentioned above.

if your skilled enough, this wont matter, play the game and find out.

 

[OnyxVulpine]

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=110697

I think there was a whole discussion about this in that thread.. I remember because Mookie made posts there :D

-Onyx

 

[Doggalina]

Well, that's an argument... washdaving was an exploit in that aged engine, and now that there's a new one, it may be out. In my opinion, it's out. Then again, Sakurai is known for witnessing and acknowledging what people have found and would like in the game... something that most developers need to do.

It doesn't necessarily replace the old engine. As it's been said earlier, it's probably for projectiles and that new fancy sliding box.

 

[Darkurai]

off-topic, but would Guitar Hero 3 need a physics engine?

Not in the slightest.

 

[Revven]

It doesn't necessarily replace the old engine. As it's been said earlier, it's probably for projectiles and that new fancy sliding box.

We'll see, it's still new physics being used in the game that can change the gameplay to an extent. Just look at the videos, the moves are done drastically different than they are in Melee. I'll use Mario as an example in the Nintendo World trailer. He was comboing Link, right? Well, his Down B reacted differently than it would in Melee. In Melee, you wouldn't be able to keep your opponent within the tornado as easily in the air as well as expect to stay in the air for as long as he did in the video. It was sort of done like it was in SSB64 thinking about it now.

Regardless, it's still new physics and they can effect the game no matter what is change and what isn't. Wavedashing could still be effected greatly, I happen to think they are changing more than just the projectiles and using the physics for the crates and what not. As said earlier in the topic, the physics were used to create the footstool jump. That is a change in the character models themselves since now they're solid as opposed to being able to walk through them like you could in the past. It means they're willing to change it. Of course, it's just my opinion. I'm sure they'll use it for more than juszt the three things mentioned in this topic, they have to...

Not saying I want Wavedashing to be removed, just mentioning what we know and that they could change it so Wavedashing doesn't work like we want it to (key word: could).

But, we'll see.

 

[Darkurai]

Wavedashing was never meant to be anyway.
And you know how Nintendo deals with glitches.

 

[MookieRah]

It doesn't necessarily replace the old engine. As it's been said earlier, it's probably for projectiles and that new fancy sliding box.

EXACTLY. Guys, you should keep this in mind.

Havok engine = physics
Melee engine = game engine

They used melee's source code as a springboard for Brawl, that coupled with the Havok engine means that the physics will simply be more polished and Nintendo doesn't have to spend much time working with it due to the fact that they are just tweaking the Havok engine for Brawl.

I very much doubt that the physics would affect any pre-existing gameplay mechanics such as the ability to move through characters. I'm also fairly certain that if this was the case we would have recognized it at some point from the trailers.

A nice plus to the physics engine, when opponents are launched by an attack they now have ballistic trajectories. This will also improve upon the crazy momentum nonsense in melee where if you tech the ground at high percent it would still make you fly off the stage. So yeah, havok will be a nice improvement and it will give Nintendo more time to polish everything else.

And you know how Nintendo deals with glitches.

Wavedashing more than likely won't be in the game unless Nintendo purposely put it in their game. You can debate the merits of wavedashing elsewhere, but that doesn't make it more or less likely to be in Brawl. There really isn't much to debate at this point.

Anyways, lets not turn this into another wavedash debate. Please, pretty please!

 

[Littleonetwo]

havok is a physics engine, it doesnt affect things like graphics, or the ability to pass through things, its rather how all objects react together in an eviroment.

and not all havok games use the same physics nor will they all play the same. Havok is a highly developed engine that can be easily modified to the users needs.

my guess is that they are using havok to cut down on the programming time needed to create a brand new engine, so they can focus more on other things, like new characters and stages. and it clearly shows thats whats happening.

long story short, havok is a good tool to cut down on development time.

 

[Demon_machinE]

They used melee's source code as a springboard for Brawl

Really?!?! I didnt know that, I just thought it looked very similar to melee.

So what the heck is with all these people saying brawls going to be an entirely new game and should be completly different from melee like the transition from super smash 64 to melee?

Looks like its just going to be melee, modified slightly, better graphics, and way more improved.

And possibly simplified like crazy to appeal to the wii's fantastic idea that easy games sell more copies, which will in turn ruin the competitive scene, or make a casual one.

I for one do not care though, Im probably going to continue hosting melee smashfests and going to melee tournaments.

If I buy brawl, itll just be to play casually. To me it looks like that type of game.

Cant wait to see what high level competitive brawl looks like though... perhaps like with melee, it will entice me to join the dark side once more....

 

[Truce]

The only way wavedashing could be removed is if airdodges can't involve movement. Last I checked, airdodging has nothing to do with a changed physics engine, so if wavedashing is removed, it won't be because of this, it'll be an independent decision. Wavedashing has nothing to do with Havok engine.

 

[Littleonetwo]

The only way wavedashing could be removed is if airdodges can't involve movement. Last I checked, airdodging has nothing to do with a changed physics engine, so if wavedashing is removed, it won't be because of this, it'll be an independent decision. Wavedashing has nothing to do with Havok engine.

while what you say about Wavedashing having anything to do with havok is true, they can easily fix the glitch by simply improving their programming.

im sure its not too hard to add an If statement that if you hit the ground you stop moving. its not too complicated. they just didnt expect it to happen when they were making Melee, but now that its known its up to them to fix it or let stay in the game.

 

[MookieRah]

So, development would not be occurring at Hal Labs. But, the code and development environment of Super Smash Bros. Melee, which I had developed in the past, was offered. Having this versus not having this means the efficiency of the development changes dramatically, so I'm thankful.

Basically that passage says they had the melee source code from the get go, and they are using it.

The only way wavedashing could be removed is if airdodges can't involve movement.

No, the physics engine is the reason wavedash existed in the first place. There are SOOO many ways the wavedash could be removed without even intending to remove it, and because Brawl is using a drastically different AND more accurate physics engine, I doubt wavedashing would be in. The best chance wavedashing has is if Sakurai placed it in the game purposefully.

So what the heck is with all these people saying brawls going to be an entirely new game and should be completly different from melee like the transition from super smash 64 to melee?

Most of that is simply a rebellion against the competitive community. If they actually sat down and thought about it, they would see how Brawl would be very very similar to melee and vice versa. There was a significant change from SSB to Melee, but that was because they refined so many things. With melee though, they fixed most of the issues. Brawl will certainly have some changes with it, but since melee was so polished it won't be nearly as drastic of a change as SSB to melee was.

Cant wait to see what high level competitive brawl looks like though... perhaps like with melee, it will entice me to join the dark side once more....

I have no doubts that Brawl will have a competitive scene as large, if not larger than, Melee's. Even if they take a few things out, they will unintentionally add a lot more new things. Virtually EVERY game that is played competitively has moves or physics that have unintended and unforseen that take the game into a direction that the developers would never have thought. This is apparent in both SSB and Melee, so Brawl will be no different in that aspect.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Haha, I figured wavedashing would come up.

Well, we have the airdodge left in. So, if you dont slide when you hit the ground after an airdodge, trust me, people are still going to airdodge into the ground to exploit whatever the heck else happens instead of sliding now, most likely some free invincibility frames? Easy triangle jumping?

In anycase, bitter newbies who have to find something to blame of course hate wavedashing and want it removed since its the sole reason they lose *sarcasm*

But whatll be funny is watching the same newbies complain when brawl comes out regardless, even with no wavedashing, because theyll still lose more often than win, and have to blame something for it.

 

[Littleonetwo]

Haha, I figured wavedashing would come up.

Well, we have the airdodge left in. So, if you dont slide when you hit the ground after an airdodge, trust me, people are still going to airdodge into the ground to exploit whatever the heck else happens instead of sliding now, most likely some free invincibility frames? Easy triangle jumping?

In anycase, bitter newbies who have to find something to blame of course hate wavedashing and want it removed since its the sole reason they lose *sarcasm*

But whatll be funny is watching the same newbies complain when brawl comes out regardless, even with no wavedashing, because theyll still lose more often than win, and have to blame something for it.

i dont think anyone said they wanted it removed, rather using it as an example of what could change based on the inclusion of Havok.
and all i was saying was that if it is fixed/amended (whatever) it would be up to the programmers to decide if they wanted it back.

Since the only thing wave dashing would have to do with Havok, is how fast and how far you would slide on the surface, i dont really think it has anything to do with it.

I cant wavedash very well, but i dont blame it on me losing games either, because it is possible to counter it with good timing.

 

[Demon_machinE]

Anyways, lets not turn this into another wavedash debate. Please, pretty please!

I agree completly. lets get off the WDing subject.

so what other changes would havok potentially bring to brawl? Aside from crates sliding and whatnot

 

[Moon Monkey]

Is this the reason there are no invisible boundaries in Brawl? Like being able to roll towards the edge of the field and not fall off in Melee? Instead you actually fall off?

 

[Littleonetwo]

Is this the reason there are no invisible boundaries in Brawl? Like being able to roll towards the edge of the field and not fall off in Melee? Instead you actually fall off?

I dont quite understand what you mean.

but no this has nothing to do with boundaries.

one thing it does add very well to the game and we have already seen this... Destructable items/stages.

you know what would be sweet if you could throw people through walls and it leaves a shaped hole or after you destroy a platform you could grab the pieces of said platform and use them as items.

 

[Takeshi245]

This isn't news to me. I knew the Havoc engine was used more than a month ago. Will this physics engine help more with getting better DI? Oh, and I can see why the Havoc engine makes things more realistic. Did you guys notice how Link didn't bounce when he did his dair in the E3 trailer? To me, that's an example of the Havoc engine.

 

[Littleonetwo]

i didnt notice that... ill have to watch it, but your right that would be a form of physics.

and in the case of DI... it wouldnt deal with that, but rather when you get hit, how much force can knock you so far, DI would be used to modify that and the programmers would decide on how that would work in terms of feel and use.

 

[StarshipGroove]

For one a new feature will probably be realistic collision and hit boxes.
In Melee collision boxes and hit boxes are represented by circles, and are very approssimative, for example Peach's collision boxes are tiny compared to her body and her hit boxes are massive, but DK's are slightly larger than he is.
In Brawl you'll have to actually hit the opponent's 3d model with your character's.
In short, say goodbye to Marth's invisible grab, Jigglypuff's aerial priority, Peach's down smash priority and phantom hits.

 

[Moon Monkey]

I dont quite understand what you mean.

but no this has nothing to do with boundaries.

one thing it does add very well to the game and we have already seen this... Destructable items/stages.

you know what would be sweet if you could throw people through walls and it leaves a shaped hole or after you destroy a platform you could grab the pieces of said platform and use them as items.

Well you know in Melee if you Roll (shield + Left or Right) towards the edge of the field you won't fall off? you basically just roll in place, like there is a invisible boundary.

I was asking does this mean in Brawl, you will fall off the field if you roll towards the edge of the field?

 

[Littleonetwo]

Well you know in Melee if you Roll (shield + Left or Right) towards the edge of the field you won't fall off? you basically just roll in place, like there is a invisible boundary.

I was asking does this mean in Brawl, you will fall off the field if you roll towards the edge of the field?

oh ok... that isnt a physics thing and wouldn't have anything to do with havok, unless the reason why you dont stop is because your on ice and you tend to roll farther.

i personally think that if they were to take out those barriers it would mean many suicides in the near future. so no barriers would = bad.

 

[Moon Monkey]

Oh okay i see, i thought you would fall off similarly to getting pushed back from power shield and grab on to the ledge if no one is not on it.

 

[Takeshi245]

People should stop overexaggerating about the changes of the Havoc engine. It's just make things more realistic, but not like real life.