1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  3. Use the Smashboards Store to get awesome Smash stuff and support the site, like a Nintendo Controller or the Wii U - Gamecube adaptor ! Check out the inventory in our store and support Smashboards with your purchase today!

Data Royal Academy Finishing School -- Peach Frame Data Application Thread

Discussion in 'Peach' started by Sycorax, Feb 18, 2016.

  1. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Move Staling

    This is not Peach related, but never the less something that I have never seen be written about.

    For general info on stale move negation, you can read the SSBWiki page about it. Here is some further information.

    1. Hitting multiple characters with the same move does not stale the move twice, i.e. the move is not added to the stale move queue twice. For example, hitting both Popo and Nana with Marth's fsmash will only add his fsmash to the first stale move slot, not to the second. Another example, in doubles, if Marth fsmashes an enemy Fox and an allied Sheik, the fsmash will only be added to the first stale move slot, not to the second.
    2. Hitting fly guys on the stage Yoshi's Story will not add your move to the stale queue.
     
    Kadano and Kidney Thief like this.
  2. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Parasol Fall Rates

    After using her up-b, there are three different rates Peach can choose to fall at.

    One is at -0.45mm/f. This is rate she falls at when she has her parasol open or is opening it.

    The second is -2mm/f. This is rate she falls at when you fastfall out of an open parasol. It is her normal fastfall speed.

    The third rate is achieved by lightly pressing down with an open parasol so as to close the parasol but not fastfall. When you do this, her normal gravity will start applying, -0.08mm/f^2. She will accelerate to -1.5mm/f (her normal max fall speed). If you hold down during the opening of the parasol, she will close it immediately upon finishing the opening animation and not fastfall.
     
    eideeiit likes this.
  3. tauKhan

    tauKhan
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,312
    Since we now know that the game floors pre-hit damage for kb calculation, it might be better to round those numbers up. Not that it matters since anyone using this table would probably be doing that anyway. But... still :)
     
  4. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I was never actually there for the discussion about flooring in the KB formula. Can you catch me up? How does the formula differ from the SSBWiki one? Also, I thought the game never used the pre-hit character percent in KB calculations.
     
  5. tauKhan

    tauKhan
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Lord

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2014
    Messages:
    1,312
    I think the only difference to the ssbwiki formula is that the value of p should be floor(pre-hit damage) + staled hitbox damage instead of just post-hit damage. Here is the original post by achilles.
     
  6. ShroudedOne

    ShroudedOne
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,492
    It's been a while since I've been on this site. So first let me say that I really appreciate all of the info you've been dumping here, and I'm sure a lot of others do as well (I've been keeping this close). Even if you're mostly just doing this for yourself, it's reeeeeally helpful.

    I wanted to ask about the dthrow on Marth thing. I was informed that having negative port priority only adds one extra frame to how long you have to do links, and so the difference between the dthrow > dash attack starting at 0 and starting at 44 seems extremely large. I did a bit of testing on my own, and what you found seemed to hold true, but I was wondering if you'd be able to make a couple frame-by-frame gifs to display this? I guess Marth teching out of dthrow before 44, getting comboed at 44, and then showing it combo on him above 0 when the port is closer to 1? I'm kind of out of the loop on how to do this kind of thing myself, so I was curious if you could. Thanks in advance for reading my post, and much thanks again!
     
  7. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I just love frame data lol. I actually quit Peach for Marth not too long ago, but I'll still continue to answer anyone's questions. I just like to help.
    Yeah, I was surprised too. What ends up happening is that that extra frame of hitstun causes Marth to spend one more frame falling down to the ground at the end of dthrow hitstun. This makes jumping upwards out of the dash attack range impossible. That is why it connects at those low percents.
    Maybeeeee. Gif making is a really tedious process for me, but I'm really bad at saying no XD ^_^ I'll see if I can do that in the next couple of days.
     
  8. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Up-B Out of Shield

    Up-B is a quick (7 frames) out of shield option that can be effective in disrupting an opponent's shield pressure if they are close enough. This gif shows what the first hit of Peach's grounded up-b looks like. It alternates between a reverse up-b and a normal up-b. All the hitboxes have the same properties, the most important being high set knockback.

    The range is not very big so the opponent needs to be right on top of you. The umbrella part of the moves sticks out behind her quite a bit which may mean that doing a reverse up-b will be more likely to hit an opponent in front of you. However, the umbrella hitbox is displaced in the z-axis so it may not help that much. Here is what it looks like from above.
    [​IMG]
    The strong initial hit continues for 4 frames. The hitboxes move upward only for the most part, not giving it any more range. Angling the up-b left or right does not affect Peach's movement (and therefore her hitboxes) during these initial frames. Angling will not give you more range with up-b.
     
    #48 Sycorax, Jun 28, 2016
    Last edited: Jun 28, 2016
    Vestboy_Myst likes this.
  9. ShroudedOne

    ShroudedOne
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Hero

    • Premium
    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,492
    Haha, well I won't take advantage of you. If you find it to be too tedious, don't worry about it. I mostly want it to show people that this is in fact the case/for my own records. But it's not super pressing.

    I've been thinking about this in relation to your upB post: Fox's drill is supposedly -6 on shield in perfect conditions, so if it's staled/not fastfallen correctly. I've been thinking that maybe we can upB OOS most Fox drills on shield on reaction? Played around with it but there are a ton of variable so eh.
     
  10. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Up B OoS is 7 frames at best (same as grab), so just grab if you feel confident you can get it. Buffering jump, eating the shine, and instant landing is a better option imo.
     
  11. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Parasol Flick Combo

    Most everyone has seen Armada's parasol combo on Leffen. If you are old school, perhaps you remember a similar clip from his video. These parasol combos are not as janky or BS as you might first suspect. Here are the details.

    There are four important animation states here. The first is the initial up-shot of the parasol with a slight launching knockback. Afterward, Peach opens her umbrella. This animation lasts 15 frames during which a hitbox appears on frame 10. This is what it looks like.

    After that animation, there is a third which is just Peach floating down with a persistent hitbox above her. It has the same properties as the opening parasol animation. The last important animation is FallSpecial which is what Peach transitions to when she closes her umbrella.

    The hitbox above her as she is opening and floating is the hitbox you want to use to repeatedly hit Fox. It has medium base knockback, low growth, and knocks the opponent upwards at 80 degrees. When the hitbox connects, instantly close the parasol and immediately reopen it to refresh the hitbox. Fox should stay pretty much right above you and fall into the hit again. This is a true combo on Fox at all percents except very low percents. At higher percents, if you land soon enough after the parasol hit, you can true combo into nair like Armada did in the clip above.

    At higher percents, you want to close the umbrella for 1 frame (preferably a slow fall) and then immediately reopen it. At lower percents, Fox does not get knocked up very far and can fall past you. To account for this, fastfall out of the parasol for a few frames, no more than about 4, then reopen. The timing on opening and closing is unique and difficult. It will require practice. It is not a steady beat. You want to close, immediately reopen, wait a quarter second, then close again and repeat. In most cases, the optimal progression would go something like this: weak open parasol (369_316 or 370_317) hit, fastfall 1 frame, open parasol for 15 frames, fastfall again, repeat.

    Fox has a few escape options. DI'ing away from Peach can work, but if Peach follows his DI with aerial drift, then she can continue to the combo. SDI will end the combo altogether. At lower percents when there is not much hitstun or if the Peach is not good with the open-close rhythm, Fox can up-b out or shine to cancel his downward momentum then up-b. If Fox has his jump, that may work to escape. Depending on positioning, the jump may get sniped by the opening hitbox.

    This combo can also work against Falco, though not as well. At medium to low percents, he can jump, shine, or up-b out easily. At high percents, it is necessary to fall out of parasol for as few frames as possible and preferably slow fall.

    This combo does not work on Captain Falcon who can up-b out due to low hitstun and gravity. Other floatier characters can easily escape by jumping, air dodging, up-b'ing, or using some other move that moves them out of the way.
     
    Nevermind likes this.
  12. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    How to Escape Fox's Uthrow Uair


    Uthrow Uair is not a true combo on Peach. The easiest way for Peach to escape is to DI the uthrow behind Fox and jump out and away. On no DI, the uair is guaranteed. DI away can work, but it is easier for Fox than DI behind. Sometimes it is guaranteed on DI away. This is not a true escape because Fox can time his dash, jumps, and uair perfectly to hit Peach's double jump, but these timings are very very very precise. The following is a gif of the only combination of dash, jumps, and uair timings that would catch Peach out of a diagonal analog jump in this percent range around 81%. A full right analog jump would escape Fox's uair here.

    (The yellow number under Fox's percent counts down the frames of hitstun for Peach)
    The reason I tested with diagonal jump is because this is my personal prefered method for escaping throw combos. It is the same method as what I recommend for jumping out of Captain Falcon's dthrow fair. I like this method because the analog stick jump input buffers for 4 frames making the timing of the jump easier than timing an X/Y input that only counts for 1 frame. An alternative method could be to roll your thumb across X and Y to get multiple inputs in quick succession. This may be favorable as the magnitude of the analog effect is important in this instance. Having a full right analog jump helps greatly in avoiding Fox's uair, but cannot be performed with a grey control stick input.

    Never try to bair or nair out of Fox's uthrow uair. I cannot recommend floating out either since it keeps you close to the uair which Fox could overshoot to hit you.

    Notice Fox is in the port closer to port 4 in the gif above giving him one more frame of leniency on the maneuver. If Peach were closer to port 4, escaping Fox's uthrow uair combo would be no problem. Fox would not have a hope.

    At about 118%, uthrow uair stops working against no DI. Peach can jump out or ASDI the first hit of uair up.

    Low percent uthrow combos (uair/bair) do not work either except on no DI. Jump or air dodge out to avoid them.
     
    #52 Sycorax, Jul 5, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
    Smith_, COB, Nevermind and 1 other person like this.
  13. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Q-drop Turnip Shield Pressure

    Qdropping is useful for more than cycling through turnips quickly. It can also be used for shield pressure. With a perfect 7 frame Qdrop, you can be +4 on shield! As long as you double jump before the zdrop input, your shield advantage can range from +1 to +4. If you zdrop before the double jump input, your advantage is greatly diminished and will be at best +0, but can be as low as -3. It is important to note that if you zdrop after the double jump input (which is preferable for maximum shield advantage), the turnip will appear behind Peach. This may not hit the opponent's shield unless you are facing backwards or spaced very close to them.

    In this gif, Peach shields for 1 frame. This is because she drops the turnip on the frame before. You cannot zdrop then grab on the next frame because the game would just count that as holding the z button for 2 frames.

    Refer to my Peach Shield Pressure post to know your options after this shield pressure.
     
    #53 Sycorax, Jul 18, 2016
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2016
  14. Awstintacious

    Awstintacious
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2011
    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    Atlanta, Georgia
    Wait, did someone find this out before I did @#SplitsOnTrees I'm so sad if that's the case, I wanted to name something for once
     
  15. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    I think Quetz turned me on to it.
     
  16. Awstintacious

    Awstintacious
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Apprentice

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2011
    Messages:
    121
    Location:
    Atlanta, Georgia
    But I messaged you late one night while labbing and told you about it and you flipped :/
     
  17. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Oh, maybe it was you then. I don't remember :/
     
  18. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Advanced Turnip Probabilities

    If you pull 1 turnip, there is a 4.2% chance of pulling a dot eyes or better (hereafter a "good turnip"). Here's a table for pulling more turnips. This is calculated as if you were to pull turnips until you get a good turnip then stop.
    Code:
     2     8.2%
     3     12.1%
     4     15.8%
     5     19.3%
     6     22.7%
     7     26.0%
     8     29.1%
     9     32.1%
    10     34.9%
    11     37.6%
    12     40.3%
    13     42.8%
    14     45.2%
    15     47.5%
    16     49.7%
    17     51.8%
    18     53.8%
    19     55.8%
    20     57.6%
    21     59.4%
    22     61.1%
    23     62.7%
    24     64.3%
    25     65.8%
    26     67.3%
    27     68.6%
    28     69.9%
    29     71.2%
    30     72.4%
    31     73.6%
    32     74.7%
    33     75.8%
    34     76.8%
    35     77.7%
    36     78.7%
    37     79.6%
    38     80.4%
    39     81.3%
    40     82.0%
    41     82.8%
    42     83.5%
    43     84.2%
    44     84.9%
    
    Another way to interpret these numbers is that if you pull X turnips, this is the % chance of pulling at least 1 good turnip.

    On a Pokemon Stadium transformation, if you knit perfectly from the time the transformation is all the way up (e.g. rock transformation reaches its max height) until the screen in the background starts flashing that the stage is about to change, you can knit 35 turnips. If you knit until the stage starts to lower, you can knit 44 turnips. If you knit during the transformation until the screen starts to flash or until you pull a good turnip, there is a 78.7% chance of getting a good turnip. If you knit until the stage starts to lower or until you find a good turnip, there is an 85.5% chance that you will get a good turnip.

    If, instead, you're looking for a stitch face or bob-omb and stopping if you find one, there is a 51.2% chance you'll find one in 35 pulls. There is a 59.2% chance you'll find one in 44 pulls if you stop when you find one.

    The table below shows the probability of pulling one or more of a stitch face or a bob-omb given X number of turnip pulls. So if you pull 20 turnips in a game, there is a 32.8% chance one or more of them was a stitch or bob-omb.
    Code:
    1     2.0%
    2     3.9%
    3     5.8%
    4     7.7%
    5     9.5%
    6    11.3%
    7    13.0%
    8    14.7%
    9    16.4%
    10    18.1%
    11    19.7%
    12    21.3%
    13    22.8%
    14    24.3%
    15    25.8%
    16    27.3%
    17    28.7%
    18    30.1%
    19    31.5%
    20    32.8%
    21    34.2%
    22    35.5%
    23    36.7%
    24    38.0%
    25    39.2%
    26    40.4%
    27    41.6%
    28    42.7%
    29    43.9%
    30    45.0%
    31    46.1%
    32    47.1%
    33    48.2%
    34    49.2%
    35    50.2%
    36    51.2%
    37    52.1%
    38    53.1%
    39    54.0%
    40    54.9%
    41    55.8%
    42    56.7%
    43    57.5%
    44    58.4%
    
    Per @Quetzalcoatl's request, here is a table showing the probability of pulling a winky face or better if you pull X turnips until you find a winky face then stop.

    Code:
    # of Turnips Probability
     1           11.0%
     2           20.9%
     3           29.6%
     4           37.4%
     5           44.3%
     6           50.5%
     7           55.9%
     8           60.8%
     9           65.1%
    10           69.0%
    11           72.4%
    12           75.5%
    13           78.2%
    14           80.6%
    15           82.7%
    16           84.6%
    17           86.3%
    18           87.8%
    19           89.2%
    20           90.4%
    21           91.4%
    22           92.4%
    23           93.2%
    24           94.0%
    25           94.6%
    26           95.2%
    27           95.8%
    28           96.2%
    29           96.6%
    30           97.0%
    31           97.3%
    32           97.6%
    33           97.9%
    34           98.1%
    35           98.3%
    36           98.5%
    37           98.7%
    38           98.8%
    39           99.0%
    40           99.1%
    41           99.2%
    42           99.3%
    43           99.3%
    44           99.4%
    
     
    #58 Sycorax, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2016
    Quetzalcoatl and Vestboy_Myst like this.
  19. SSBM_AEON

    SSBM_AEON
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2015
    Messages:
    2
    Location:
    Derby
    3DS FC:
    5086-1588-6152
    NNID:
    iiZESB
    Sorry but since you seem knowledgeable about Peaches recovery, I was hoping you could help me understand something.

    https://twitter.com/hutukamimann/status/791264026734964736

    Could you edge guard these Peach recoveries by just rolling, keeping in mind parasol fall speed?

    Here is some data on rolls if it helps:

    http://webcache.googleusercontent.c...Ledge_Roll_0-99.xls+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uk

    Having a dumb melee argument with a friend so I'd like your opinion.
     
    #59 SSBM_AEON, Oct 29, 2016
    Last edited: Oct 29, 2016
  20. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    At the height Peach up-b'd in those clips, a roll timed at the latest possible frame would have prevented Peach from grabbing the ledge. However, you can't react to Peach's up-b with a roll/tech. If you read her timing too early, she may be able to stall to reduce your effective ledgehog frames and recover.

    So to answer your question directly: You technically could edgeguard her with just roll, but the timing is read based.
     
  21. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Fox's Fthrow Usmash and Uthrow Uair

    In followup to my post on escaping uthrow uair, I would like to talk about another option Fox has, fthrow usmash. The key to it, for Fox, is that DI behind on uthrow gets Peach out of the uair followup, but it puts her in the perfect spot for a running JC usmash after fthrow. This is not a true combo, but it's close. It is very similar to Falcon's dthrow fair in that Peach needs to airdodge out to avoid the killer followup. The usmash can kill as earlier as 73% with DI up and away. That's 66% before the fthrow and 91% in the end. DI up and away is used because that's my recommended method for airdodging out, tap jump to buffer a jump plus L/R to airdodge.

    Being closer to port 4 helps a lot with 1 more frame of leniency. After about 95% before the fthrow, the usmash followup becomes relatively very easy to escape. So the percent windows to worry about this are 66% to 95%, or never if you're good at airdodging out.

    It is not possible to react to which throw Fox does either. A simple double jump away from Fox will not avoid his usmash if he spaces and times it correctly.

    Additional note: I think a good way to tell the timing on airdodging out of dthrow fair or fthrow usmash is to look at the opponent. When you see them get close and about to hit your with their kill move, input the jump airdodge. In some cases, you'll do it later than is possible to do it, but as long as you do it soon enough (based on how close they are too you) you can always do it in time. This trick might also help with doing a horizontal airdodge out. Horizontal airdodge out is very advantageous since it is much harder for the opponent to followup on. To be honest, any Falcon or Fox should be able to hit you again on reaction to you airdodging out of their combo.
     
    #61 Sycorax, Nov 25, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
    V_D_X likes this.
  22. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Shielding Peach's Dsmash

    Unfortunately this post provides information useful against Peach and not so much as Peach. I find it necessary because I have not seen this specific piece of frame data knowledge discussed elsewhere.

    Tilting your shield can be useful against Peach's dsmash, but it may not be as useful as you think. When you enter shieldhitstun, your shield angling resets to center, in a sense. Practically, this means that shield angling against Peach's dsmash has no effect except on the first hit.

    Here is a breakdown. You can angle your shield during normal, "free" shield action states like GuardOn, GuardReflect, and Guard when you're just shielding and nothing is happening to you. When your shield is hit with a move, the angling of its protective shield bubble is frozen for the entirety of shieldhitlag. This does not line up with the shield animation though, which shifts back to center. After shieldhitlag, the protective shield bubble shifts back to center and lines up with the shield animation. During shieldhitstun, it stays in center and cannot be angled. After shieldhitstun, the shield will quickly snap into whichever direction you're holding.

    Here is a gif showing this. The teal blue circle is the shield bubble that actually protects you. Notice how it shifts before during and after being hit.

    What this means for shielding Peach's dsmash is that angling on the first hit is all that angling will help. After the first hit, the shield bubble will reset to center and will be stuck there since Peach's dsmash shield locks you. After the first hit, the only measure you can take to avoid getting shieldpoked is to shield SDI and ASDI away from Peach. This also means a character's propensity for being shield poked depends on the position of their hurtboxes and shield during GuardDamage.
     
    #62 Sycorax, Dec 9, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2016
  23. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Shield Advantage of Peach's Dsmash

    Peach's dsmash is actually rather safe on shield and it depends heavily on how which is the last hit to connect with the opponent's shield. Let me explain.

    Peach's dsmash is 39 frames long and causes 8 frames of shieldhitstun if unstale, and 7 if it is stale (and lets be honest, it's probably stale). It hits on frames 5, 9, 13, 17, and 21. It is active on other frames, but those are very unlikely to connect with the opponent's shield since they would have to be moving into you with their shield up in order for them to connect.

    Here is a table outlining the advantage on shield of the five hits of Peach's dsmash based off 7 frames of shieldhitstun.
    Code:
    +-----+-----------+
    | Hit | Advantage |
    +-----+-----------+
    |   5 |       -27 |
    |   9 |       -23 |
    |  13 |       -19 |
    |  17 |       -15 |
    |  21 |       -11 |
    +-----+-----------+
    
    This looks really bad if you do not consider that wavedash grab, at best, takes 20 frames. Some characters take 22 frames. Dsmash pushes the opponent so far away that many characters' only options to close the space and retaliate is to wavedash out of shield which adds a lot of time (13 to 15 frames). Shorthop aerials also take extra time to hit low with and often don't have the range to connect.

    Understanding how fast your opponent's most likely counter options are and how many times your dsmash hit their shield will help you make good decisions about what to do after the dsmash. Also understand that your opponent's defensive timings are often worse and more inconsistent than your timings. How good are they really at getting that perfect 20 frame WD grab to punish your spot dodge after a 3rd hit dsmash on shield?

    In order to avoid retaliation after dsmash, Peach's fastest options are jab (frame 2), shield (frame 1), buffered spot dodge (frame 3), and buffered roll (frame 5).
     
    #63 Sycorax, Dec 19, 2016
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2016
    CAUP, V_D_X and tauKhan like this.
  24. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Uthrow Combos on Sheik

    I mistakenly stated earlier in thread that Peach does not combo Sheik off uthrow. This turns out to be false. Here are outlines showing Peach's guaranteed followups on Sheik after uthrow:

    Peach in the port closest to 4:
    • DI behind
      • Uair
        • Smash turn jump uair
          • 48% to 71%
        • Smash turn dash jump uair
          • 56% to 105%
      • Jump drift bair
        • 40% to 73%
    • Uair and nair generally work on no DI and slight DIs
      • Uair until 112%
    • DI away:
      • Most percents dash uair barely doesn't work, 1 to 2 frame window to jump out
        • Same for nair, usually 2f window
      • Some percents dash uair barely does work
        • 56% to 62%
    Peach in the port closest to 1:
    • DI behind
      • Smash turn jump uair
        • 56% to 69%
      • Smash turn dash jump uair
        • 64% to 80%
      • Jump drift Bair
        • 48% to 67%
        • Important to hit with the first frame of bair
      • Nair for slight DI behind
    • Uair and nair generally work on no DI and slight DIs
      • Uair until 109%
    • DI away:
      • Nothing works
    The best of these followups come from DI behind and require dashing backwards. However, due to Melee's dumb code (see section 4.1), dashing back is impossible to do consistently and yields 6 frames of lag making these followups not work.

    Additionally, Sheik may try to survival DI a fthrow at high percents. This sets up for easy uairs. On survival DI you can uair Sheik up to 118%, which will kill on at least 3 stages, Yoshi's, Pokemon Stadium, and FD.

    The easiest method for Sheik to escape these followups is to buffer jump via tap jumping up and diagonally away from Peach. This buffers jump for 4 frames with ~70% analog effect and makes Peach need to be frame tight on several inputs to earn the followup.
     
    #64 Sycorax, Jan 2, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2017
    Awstintacious, Vestboy_Myst and CAUP like this.
  25. CAUP

    CAUP
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    292
    Great, speedy work.
     
  26. zabimaru1000

    zabimaru1000
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Cadet

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2014
    Messages:
    53
    Location:
    San Francisco, California
    So basically you need a perfect controller to guarantee any combo that require smash turn use?
     
  27. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    No, you can get rather consistent with practicing proper timing, but there's always a chance, similar to the probability for tripping in Brawl, that you'll mess up.

    It can be fixed with a controller with a malfunctioning potentiometer. But that also creates other problems.
     
  28. 343

    343
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    • Rankings Staff
    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2012
    Messages:
    426
    Location:
    Norcal
    One possibly apocryphal fact I've heard is that Peach's turnip will destroy a Samus super missile if it's smash-thrown, and will bounce off (and not destroy the missile) if it's tilt-thrown. Can you confirm or deny this?

    And another slightly related question: do all of Peach's down-b pulls share one stale moves counter?
     
  29. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    This is sort of true. I'm glad you brought this up because it is related to another myth I've heard and have now been reminded to test. I have heard that regular turnips will destroy missiles in version 1.00 but not in version 1.02. This is not true. Neither is your statement.

    What is true is that normal turnips will destroy missiles if the missile is stale. Winky faces and better will always destroy the missile. If the missile is fresh, then a regular turnip will not stop it. This happens often because it is so god damn hard for Samus to hit Peach with a strong missile. It also doesn't matter if the turnip is smash thrown or soft thrown.
    Turnips are items and do not affect the stale queue.
     
    #69 Sycorax, Jan 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2017
    Vestboy_Myst likes this.
  30. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Frame Advantage on Crouch Cancel and Fox's Nair

    The minimum frame advantage when crouch canceling an aerial is equal to RoundUp(hitlag*1/3) + fall frames after hitlag + (Aerial Landing Lag - 4). If you only ASDI down, then the first term is not there and the frame advantage is Fall frames after hitlag + (Aerial Landing Lag - 4). Hitlag = RoundDown(dmg/3)+3 if you want to do some calculations for other moves yourself.

    So against Fox's nair, at worst, your frame advantage is -6 on CC and -3 on ASDI down. ASDI is always 3 frames worse than CC against nair. Here is a gif showing the heights at which Fox can connect his nair and the frame advantage on CC Peach gets


    Dsmash is always guaranteed after CC'ing nair. Grab is guaranteed for all but the lowest of nairs. ASDI down dsmash is sometimes guaranteed, but the nair needs to be pretty high. Grab almost never works after ASDI down.

    Extra Notes:
    • Remember, you cannot CC when in lag of another action, only ASDI down.
    • Fox's Bair has 2 more frames of landing lag and the same hitlag, so frame advantage is 2 better (at worst -9 on CC).
    • Fox's stale nair causes slightly less hitlag. This results in 1 frame less of advantage for Peach when CC'ing. Dsmash still always works :088:
    • These same numbers all apply to Falco's nair and bair.
    • Shield is 1 frame and always comes out before shine.
     
    #70 Sycorax, Feb 16, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
    V_D_X, Quetzalcoatl and CAUP like this.
  31. CAUP

    CAUP
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Journeyman

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2014
    Messages:
    292
    God like info. Thank you so much.
     
  32. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Weak Aerial To Dsmash

    I've written before about how Sakurai Angle prevents Peach from CC'ing Fox's nair below 8%. This mechanic can also be somewhat useful for Peach. Peach is actually very susceptible to CC, but most smashers do not understand the mechanic well enough and are too scared of dsmash to apply it.

    To some extent, you can use the Sakurai angle properties of Peach's bair and nair to counter crouch canceling, and in some cases ASDI down alone. By hitting with these moves at low enough percents, CC'ing opponents will remain in hitstun. By the time you land and are actionable, the opponent's hitstun is over or just about over. In otherwords, weak aerial is about +0 on hit against a CC'ing opponent. However, since the opponent is in more stun than they expect, their inputs may be messed up and eaten by lag. This can stagger them allowing for a dsmash, or a jab to stagger them further after which you may be able to land dsmash or grab. (In case it isn't obvious, I am only talking about FC aerials.)

    Here is a chart of percents for most characters. Other characters have similar weight and will have similar percent thresholds.
    Code:
    +--------------------+------------+-----+-------+-------+-------------+----------------+-------+
    |                    | Jigglypuff | Fox | Falco | Marth | Sheik/Peach | Captain Falcon | Samus |
    +--------------------+------------+-----+-------+-------+-------------+----------------+-------+
    | Bair - Strong      |          7 |   9 |    10 |    11 |          11 |             13 |    14 |
    | Bair - Weak        |         13 |  15 |    15 |    16 |          17 |             19 |    20 |
    | Nair - Weak        |         18 |  21 |    22 |    23 |          23 |             26 |    27 |
    | Nair - Weak - ASDI |          3 |   4 |     4 |     5 |           5 |              6 |     7 |
    +--------------------+------------+-----+-------+-------+-------------+----------------+-------+
    
    Furthermore, and perhaps more importantly, weak aerial into dsmash can true combo at low percents depending on percent, character, and spacing, and assuming the opponent doesn't ASDI down. Fox and Falco can sometimes fall fast enough to shield in time before dsmash. Try mixing up with grab, or a quick jab.

    I would also like to give some credit to Armada for inspiring these ideas.
     
    #72 Sycorax, Feb 21, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2017
    V_D_X and CAUP like this.
  33. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    Dthrow Reaction Tech Chase

    If Peach lands a grab on a fastfaller with her back to the corner, she can land a strong punish off of a grab dthrow. Here is how it works and some of the best followups off it.

    When you grab Fox, Falco, or Captain Falcon in a corner, dthrow them. Dash forward for a few frames (4-6 is good), then dash back towards their tech in place location.
    • If they tech in place you can dash attack or dash grab (you can pivot dsmash if you are still in Dash by the time you reach them). Dash attack is a lot easier to react with than grab.
    • If they don't tech, you can dash attack or pivot dsmash.
    • If they tech roll away, the stage will cut them off and you can follow the roll with grab, dash attack, or ground float aerial.
    • If they tech roll through you, you can dash back again and always get dash attack, but sometimes you can get grab depending on the opponent's character's tech roll length.
    This tactic works at most percents since dthrow doesn't have much knockback growth.

    Medium fall speed characters can almost always jump away to relative safety.

    Most players will choose to tech in place or tech roll in because tech roll away is so easy to punish devastatingly. You can actually use dsmash to cover both of these options. After dthrow, walk forward (or sometimes stand in place depending on DI) so that the back tip of dsmash will hit their tech in place, then dsmash.

    Against Fox and Falcon, if you're fast enough and they tech close to you, you can do a float bair to cover tech in place and dash attack any tech rolls.

    The fastfallers' best defense is to DI to slide off the ledge and grab ledge. They can also try DI'ing off stage altogether. They will become actionable below the ledge where they can rising aerial, shine stall, DJ sweetspot, walljump, fade back jump up-b or side-b, and maybe other options.

    Lastly, shoutouts to DruggedFox for telling me about the idea of using dthrow to reaction tech chase with Peach.
     
    #73 Sycorax, Feb 26, 2017
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2017
    EnigmaticScarecrow, V_D_X and tauKhan like this.
  34. Sycorax

    Sycorax
    Expand Collapse
    Smash Ace

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2014
    Messages:
    501
    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
    The Effective Range of Dash Attack

    Dash attack is a wonderful tool for Peach threaten longer ranges. How far can it threaten though? It depends on how you are using it and how ready the opponent is to react.

    Let's first consider the case of an opponent who is ready to react. Shield is a very strong counter option to dash attack which only takes one frame. From my own research, I believe 17 frames to be a good benchmark for simple reaction tests like shielding if a dash attack is coming. In that time Peach can cover 23.16452mm. Below is what that looks like. Dashing back is another common counter-option. That can take anywhere between 1 and 6 frames. For each additional frame, Peach can cover about 1.28375 more mm. For comparison, 1 SDI moves a character 6mm. This is to say, each additional frame does not contribute much, but can be marginally helpful.
    [​IMG]

    Let's also consider the case of reading an opponent. Reading an opponent's commitment can give Peach more than 17 frames to act before the opponent can attempt counter-play. A common example is Fox's shorthop double laser. How far is a safe range for him to SHDL and be safe if Peach tries to read him with a dash attack? A single iteration of SHDL takes 26 or 28 frames depending on whether Fox gets instant gravity from an instant neutral B. How far can Peach cover in 26 frames? About 34.58827mm. Here is what that looks like.
    [​IMG]

    It may also be worth noting that Falco lasers take about 22 frames to come out from the start of shorthop.
     
    #74 Sycorax, May 10, 2017
    Last edited: May 10, 2017
    Awstintacious likes this.

Share This Page

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)

We know you don't like ads
Why not buy Premium?