Roy should be above Link on the tier list!

[RichThug]

I think that Roy is better than what people give him credit for. Sure his aerials are slow, but at least they are somewhat powerful. He is fairly fast and he has some great combos. His forward smash is strong and his down tilt is great for setting up combos at low percent. Last but not least, his grab range is huge, maybe as big as Marth's. Link may be good, but I think oy is better.

 

[AirFair]

inb4 Skilled Roy memes

Link has more range and is just as good, if not better. Roy can't recover well, and Link has good edgeuguards plus a tether.

 

[Spak]

at least they are somewhat powerful.

No, his areals are not powerful whatsoever. His Fair is OK when sweetspotted (horrible when not), Fair's endlag ensures you will die if you are off-stage and offers no practical uses for comboing, Bair doesn't kill even at sudden death percents, Nair is OK, and Uair is the only useful aerial (more on that later).

He is fairly fast and he has some great combos. His forward smash is strong and his down tilt is great for setting up combos at low percent.

What combos? D-Tilt is probably one of the best combo-starters in the game, but he doesn't have much else to combo into. B-Throw can occasionally combo into F-Smash, but they can DI to avoid it. Falling Uair combos into either U-Tilt, F-Tilt, or F-Smash, but all of his moves have such small hitstun that he can't combo beyond those few options.

 

[kingPiano]

Link may be good, but I think oy is better.

I think oy is better too

6 reasons why Link is better:
1. Better, more varied recovery and ledge game
2. Boomerang
3. Bomb
4. D-air
5. Up-B OoS
6. Cuccos

Bonus:
7. The way his chain just plops there on the ground when he whiffs a throw

 

[Smashing_Spamus]

Roy really is just terrible, the only notable thing that he has over Link is maybe smash attacks. Roy's up smash is definitely better, as well as his f-smash and down smash is actually pretty good. Otherwise, Roy is garbage.

 

[Massive]

Both Roy and Link are bad.

Link is way better than Roy though.

OP have you ever played against a good Link?
Links show up in tourneys from time to time and if you don't know the matchup you're going to get stomped, even with a mainline character.

Roy has TERRIBLE matchups against characters people frequently play. A Roy that shows up in a tourney bracket is almost always a new player and is nearly assured to go 2 and out in a non-local bracket. Roy mains who keep playing Roy almost always do so he is the SEGA version of Marth (SPIKY HAIR, FIRE, MAXIMUM 90s ATTITUDE). Serious players who start with Roy usually move to Marth pretty fast (if it is actually the sword they like, if it's the fastfallyness they end up a spacie), being that he is very similar yet categorically better.

 

[kingPiano]

Both Roy and Link are bad.

Link is way better than Roy though.

OP have you ever played against a good Link?
Links show up in tourneys from time to time and if you don't know the matchup you're going to get stomped, even with a mainline character.

Roy has TERRIBLE matchups against characters people frequently play. A Roy that shows up in a tourney bracket is almost always a new player and is nearly assured to go 2 and out in a non-local bracket. Roy mains who keep playing Roy almost always do so he is the SEGA version of Marth (SPIKY HAIR, FIRE, MAXIMUM 90s ATTITUDE). Serious players who start with Roy usually move to Marth pretty fast (if it is actually the sword they like, if it's the fastfallyness they end up a spacie), being that he is very similar yet categorically better.

Eh this isn't really true, the "categorically better" part

- Almost every Marth player will tell you that they wish Marth had Roy's D-tilt since it's initial high low scaling knockback pops the opponent up for combos. Marth's just pushes them away.
- Roy's Up throws can kill much sooner
- Roy has a better Side B (DED) the 3rd hit - ^ B - is a spike on the edge
- Roy's counter is infinitely better, smaller window but it can gimp recoveries (especially jump out counters) and destroy hard reads
- Roys faster fall speed can actually make some combos easier or possible over Marth. I'd say they have equal combo potential on FFers, only reason you haven't seen the full potential is lack of mains (Sadly Neo still had the best Roy that ever existed, tons of combos and speed)
- As was mentioned Up-Smash is much better, and the tip hitbox spikes like Falcos drill

I do agree though that Link would win over Roy 100% of the time if they are of the same exact skill level, but I don't know bout stomped. Like a Neo vs LordHDL in their prime (or GERM). Would be close matches, both can edge guard each recovery equally. Neutral of course would be tougher for Roy. Young Link would be much more difficult.

 

[Quips]

Looks like I'm keeping my money. Tom plz.

 

[Massive]

I don't normally do this, but I did say categorically.

Eh this isn't really true, the "categorically better" part

- Almost every Marth player will tell you that they wish Marth had Roy's D-tilt since it's initial high low scaling knockback pops the opponent up for combos. Marth's just pushes them away.

Marth's dtilt is probably one of his best neutral moves. It is both a ledgeguard and a techchase, it is low enough that it can shieldpoke and let marth force a position change. While popping someone up into fair range (assuming they don't DI) would be nice, I doubt any marths would give up one of his best offensive pokes.

- Roy's Up throws can kill much sooner

Marth's uthrow leads to fmash on fastfallers and uair on other characters. His uthrow's combo potential alone probably gives him better punishment/KO options than all of roy's throws combined.

- Roy has a better Side B (DED) the 3rd hit - ^ B - is a spike on the edge

Marth's side-b functions as a third (small) jump. Roy's sort of does, but his fastfalling nature quickly removes the utility of it. The third hit can be used as a meteor smash to similar effect as roy's, however keep in mind that marth's third hit neutral dancing sword has KO potential, whereas roy's doesn't really. To be fair, most marths don't bother with dancing sword other than one-off hits for utilt setups and recovery.

- Roy's counter is infinitely better, smaller window but it can gimp recoveries (especially jump out counters) and destroy hard reads

Roy's counter is only active for 12/59 frames and Marth's is active for 24/59 frames. Marth's counter is long and effective enough that it can be used to cover ledgeguard options with minimal effort. It counters most low specie recoveries and leads to an easy ledgeguard KO.

- Roys faster fall speed can actually make some combos easier or possible over Marth. I'd say they have equal combo potential on FFers, only reason you haven't seen the full potential is lack of mains (Sadly Neo still had the best Roy that ever existed, tons of combos and speed)

Marth has chaingrabs and can 0-death fastfallers on FD pretty easily. Roy's weight prevents him from having things like the Ken combo and his fastfaller nature makes him superbly easy to gimp and KO. His low vertical speed makes him a prime target for platform camping.

- As was mentioned Up-Smash is much better, and the tip hitbox spikes like Falcos drill

You definitely got me there, Roy's usmash is a lot better than Marth's.

To allay some of the fears that I'm just being an asshole, I truly wish there were more Roy mains too (it'd be hype as hell). Roy just has the same problem as Kirby: The same amount of effort invested into his high tiered equivalent will get you much better, much faster than playing the low tier.

 

[Spak]

Roy's counter is only active for 12/59 frames and Marth's is active for 24/59 frames. Marth's counter is long and effective enough that it can be used to cover ledgeguard options with minimal effort. It counters most low specie recoveries and leads to an easy ledgeguard KO.

I'd also like to add that Roy's counter doesn't actually start until frame 8 vs Marth's starting on frame 5.

 

[EddyBearr]

Roy just has the same problem as Kirby: The same amount of effort invested into his high tiered equivalent will get you much better, much faster than playing the low tier.

It's true. You can get much better, much faster when playing as Sheik than as Kirby.

 

[kingPiano]

stuff

I could respond to all your points but it seems it might be like talking a religious person out of their religion.

So I'll just prove one of your points terribly wrong again.

If Marth had Roy's D-Tilt:
D-tilt > Tippered F-smash
= Easy KOs starting at 50-60% for Marth

And Marth's counter is garbage for ledge-guarding and in general it's not even worth it in lieu of other moves (7% always WOAH!). The tiny knockback just keeps them coming right back to the ledge. Roy's counter can end a stock early in one blow for Falco or Fox (their Up-B's knockback and damage x 1.5 is huge) and it keeps opponents from throwing out really hard reads because they know that a falcon punch or a charged donkey punch can mean OHKO right back at them (it's pretty easy to intercept a Falcon Knee, you pretty much know when it's coming in the air). Not many current Roys use counter much (only on edge and seldom) because they aren't skilled enough or don't have fast enough reactions it seems. Unfortunately there just aren't any good Roy mains at all for Melee, just like there weren't any stellar Yoshi mains until AmSa came along.

I know Roy is not good, but he's not garbage like everyone always nonchalantly says. He's still got huge disjointed hitboxes and can take on Fox and Falco. Can't say that for many other low tiers.

"Roy's counter is only active for 12/59 frames and Marth's is active for 24/59 frames. Marth's counter is long and effective enough that it can be used to cover ledgeguard options with minimal effort. It counters most low specie recoveries and leads to an easy ledgeguard KO."

I'd also like to add that Roy's counter doesn't actually start until frame 8 vs Marth's starting on frame 5.

Oh Falco's and Fox's Down-smash only hit on 5 frames out of the 49 frame animation. OMGZORs the move is so useless and laggy, right? LULZ. What a dumb move!

 

[EddyBearr]

I could respond to all your points but it seems it might be like talking a religious person out of their religion.

Another Marth's Witness reporting for duty.

So I'll just prove one of your points terribly wrong again.

If Marth had Roy's D-Tilt:
D-tilt > Tippered F-smash
= Easy KOs starting at 50-60% for Marth

This is somewhat true, but it would be DI dependent. The biggest issue with it is that Marth would lose his main spacing tool and would have to be closer than what is comfortable in order to land this d-tilt. It would also be way less effective for edgeguarding. This move would be preferred by pre-2013 Marths where it was more about the hard punish game, but modern marths are more interested in the exceedingly safe spacing tool of d-tilt and not being commital. Both would work fantastically with Marth, but it's definitely not true that "any Marth" would prefer Roy's d-tilt. Plus, I think you can smash DI this move down to negate getting popped up entirely, but I'm not sure on that.

And Marth's counter is garbage for ledge-guarding and in general it's not even worth it in lieu of other moves (7% always WOAH!). The tiny knockback just keeps them coming right back to the ledge.

If Marth lands the counter on a fire-spacie (Which is very easy because of the huge amount of active frames, which covers both direct & wall-riding) then the spacie is guaranteed to lose the stock. The spacie isn't outright KO'd by the counter, but the counter sends them down-and-away positionally after hitstun, which guarantees Marth's fair or bair to KO them very safely. Marth's counter is AMAZING for edgeguarding because of what it sets up, not because of its own KO potential.

Roy's counter can end a stock early in one blow for Falco or Fox (their Up-B's knockback and damage x 1.5 is huge)

It is a solid edgeguarding tool, but it's way harder to both land & cover multiple options with, given its being active on frame 11 and not being active much longer. Likewise, since Roy does not have the option to drop down and fair/bair like Marth does to cleanly end a stock after a counter, the spacie actually does get a chance to come back at lower and mid percents. Marth's counter can guarantee a stock loss if it lands at 15% -- Roy's counter can not, and you have to try to land it again (which, again, is not as easy due to it's slow startup and low active frames.) Roy's is definitely flashier, but Marth's is definitely better due to being a guarantee and easier to set-up.

and it keeps opponents from throwing out really hard reads because they know that a falcon punch or a charged donkey punch can mean OHKO right back at them (it's pretty easy to intercept a Falcon Knee, you pretty much know when it's coming in the air). Not many current Roys use counter much (only on edge and seldom) because they aren't skilled enough or don't have fast enough reactions it seems.

This is not realistic. Roy is of the weight and fall-speed so that if you miss a single counter, you have lost a stock as no one decent with a decent character should drop a punish on a Roy, be it a chain-grab, a gimp, or a juggle. The reason this is a problem is because human reaction time is going to be in the line of around 15 frames with all-things-considered. This means that Roy can not counter moves on reaction and hope they hit, unless they are moves like Bowser's f-smash. Falcon knee is active on frame 18, so Roy would have to both input the counter by frame 7, which means both reacting perceptively AND physically within just 1/10 of a second, which I hate to say isn't possible when considering the highly malleable nature of smash options. If a knee is so telegraphed, then the Falcon is bad. If the Falcon actually tries to Falcon punch, then the Falcon is bad. Also, I think the Donkey Punch is even faster than the Knee, but idk for sure.

Unfortunately there just aren't any good Roy mains at all for Melee, just like there weren't any really good Yoshi mains until AmSa came along.

This is not a realistic comparison. Yoshi has been known for a long time to have really good options, but most aware people thought it was too hard to play Yoshi. Roy is thought to be bad because he is bad, with terrible options and matchups, unlike Yoshi who was mostly thought just to be too hard. Parry is unlike counter regarding reaction time due to being active pretty much immediately and being used as a non-commital bait, and all the rest of Yoshi's techs were just about putting in a lot of practice. Yoshi also is not going to lose a stock even if you screw up 10 times, so Yoshi has way more room for error than Roy. And to say there weren't any really good Yoshi mains and/or players completely ignores Vectorman and Leffen, the former of the two has gotten good results with Yoshi for quite a while.

I know Roy is not good, but he's not garbage like everyone always nonchalantly says. He's still got huge disjointed hitboxes and can take on Fox and Falco. Can't say that for many other low tiers.

Roy does about as well against Fox and Falco as most other bottom/low tiers, because the problem with low tiers often stems from their matchups against floaties or Marth/Sheik as opposed to spacies, who many characters can 0-death anyways.
Roy can not compete with floaties at all, as he can never KO them if they platform camp and/or space well, which is entirely unlike basically every other character except maybe Bowser who's just inherently atrocious.

Oh Falco's and Fox's Down-smash only hit on 5 frames out of the 49 frame animation. OMGZORs the move is so useless and laggy, right? LULZ. What a dumb move!

They also come out way faster and will hit an opponent who does nothing, sometimes shield-poke someone who shields, beat someone who grabs, and still trade-with/beat a lot of moves (which was counter's only saving grace).

 

[Spak]

I could respond to all your points but it seems it might be like talking a religious person out of their religion.

So I'll just prove one of your points terribly wrong again.

If Marth had Roy's D-Tilt:
D-tilt > Tippered F-smash
= Easy KOs starting at 50-60% for Marth

And Marth's counter is garbage for ledge-guarding and in general it's not even worth it in lieu of other moves (7% always WOAH!). The tiny knockback just keeps them coming right back to the ledge. Roy's counter can end a stock early in one blow for Falco or Fox (their Up-B's knockback and damage x 1.5 is huge) and it keeps opponents from throwing out really hard reads because they know that a falcon punch or a charged donkey punch can mean OHKO right back at them (it's pretty easy to intercept a Falcon Knee, you pretty much know when it's coming in the air). Not many current Roys use counter much (only on edge and seldom) because they aren't skilled enough or don't have fast enough reactions it seems. Unfortunately there just aren't any good Roy mains at all for Melee, just like there weren't any stellar Yoshi mains until AmSa came along.

I know Roy is not good, but he's not garbage like everyone always nonchalantly says. He's still got huge disjointed hitboxes and can take on Fox and Falco. Can't say that for many other low tiers.

If Marth had Roy's D-Tilt, then it wouldn't make sense because the baser sweetspot wouldn't make sense with the rest of his moveset. Also, counter hasn't been used frequently since Ken was king and for a good reason: it has a LOT of endlag (making it extremely punishable) and locks you in one place (causing you to miss guarding other options). Realistically, only CPUs will take the same recovery option every time, so countering with Roy isn't a good edgeguaring option because of the aforementioned points.

While countering a Falcon Punch may be easy, I've never seen anyone successfully counter a Knee. The Knee comes out pretty quick, so your .13 seconds of vulnerability at the start of the counter plus the time it takes to get out of hitstun (assuming you are being comboed and aren't trying to read raw knees; that wouldn't work in your favor) won't cut it.

Also, you say there wasn't an AmsA (by the way, you stylized his name incorrectly) for Roy, but Sethlon and NEO tried to master Roy before failing (NEO might still be at it, but I know that Sethlon switched to PM Roy a while ago and plays top-tiers in Melee now). They reached moderate success before realizing the character is more limited than they expected; I still play Roy in friendlies a lot and am pretty good with him (for Roy standards), but he isn't as great as you think he is.

Oh Falco's and Fox's Down-smash only hit on 5 frames out of the 49 frame animation. OMGZORs the move is so useless and laggy, right? LULZ. What a dumb move!

Yes, but that is pretty close to an ensured kill move. Plus, it needs the right setup to be effective; you usually see it used to attempt sweetspot prevention or roll reads.

 

[kingPiano]

I get the feeling none of you have even played as Roy on a tournament level. So I guess that makes this all pointless since I'm talking to people that don't actually know what a Roy plays like in a competitive atmosphere.

Sethlon is a great guy (so glad he tried to stick with Roy in Melee), but he messes up way too many edge guards, has trouble finishing stocks and tech chasing in Melee to be considered an Amsa for Roy or an Axe for Roy. Some people have it some don't. Like if a Mew2King or PPMD mained Roy I think you'd see him quite often placing high in brackets (they have the fundamentals, skill, and reaction time). In PM Roy is a much easier character and perhaps Sethlon just gels with that version better than he ever could in Melee. His Top Tier characters he plays in Melee aren't placing high so I think that sort of explains my point further.

Again Roy is not the best, but do I have to remind you that Yoshi is only 2 spots above Roy on the tier list and you all are trying to backpedal and rationalize retroactively that he's much better and has more options. You didn't really know anything until AmSa came along. So basically it's just brainwashed ignorance, no? Following the popular opinion without actually having experience, just reading frame and character data.

 

[Spak]

I get the feeling none of you have even played as Roy on a tournament level. So I guess that makes this all pointless since I'm talking to people that don't actually know what a Roy plays like in a competitive atmosphere.

Sethlon is a great guy (so glad he tried to stick with Roy in Melee), but he messes up way too many edge guards, has trouble finishing stocks and tech chasing in Melee to be considered an Amsa for Roy or an Axe for Roy. Some people have it some don't. Like if a Mew2King or PPMD mained Roy I think you'd see him quite often placing high in brackets (they have the fundamentals, skill, and reaction time). In PM Roy is a much easier character and perhaps Sethlon just gels with that version better than he ever could in Melee. His Top Tier characters he plays in Melee aren't placing high so I think that sort of explains my point further.

Again Roy is not the best, but do I have to remind you that Yoshi is only 2 spots above Roy on the tier list and you all are trying to backpedal and rationalize retroactively that he's much better and has more options. You didn't really know anything until AmSa came along. So basically it's just brainwashed ignorance, no? Following the popular opinion without actually having experience, just reading frame and character data.

I've played Roy in-tournament since before you even joined the boards, I play him in about an eighth of my friendlies, and I know a LOT about him. I usually use him for the Puff MU and try counterpicking to FD or Stadium because of his Reverse Up-B (best rest punish in the game; ensured kill on some stages at 0%), have watched M2K and Sethlon play in him in Melee to learn more about the character, and I have used him to the point where I've beaten a Shiek with him (not easy if you know anything about Roy MUs). I've played his so extensively that I've come to the point where I know his strengths, weaknesses, and acknowledged that he is not the best character in the game; you must come to terms with his weaknesses in order to start becoming decent with him.

M2K's Roy skill comes from the fact that Melee is his life and his skill is 4 stocks above the average Melee player. If he pulled Roy out against any other good player remotely close to his skill level, M2K would get bodied because Roy isn't good enough to stand up to modern-day professional players (Lucky, SFAT, Hax, PP, etc.)

In addition, I would look back the post you just made and refuting our points, frame data, and human reaction time (based off of both frame data and in-game experience) and note that your counterargument is calling us "brainwashed" and "ignorant". I would also like you to read EddyBearr's post (two above yours) again for my response to your Yoshi comment and consider that the tier list you are likely referring to is inaccurate and a couple years out of date. The meta has advanced beyond the point of that tier list and it's bottom tier is starting to become increasingly inaccurate.

 

[kingPiano]

I've played Roy in-tournament since before you even joined the boards, I play him in about an eighth of my friendlies, and I know a LOT about him. I usually use him for the Puff MU and try counterpicking to FD or Stadium because of his Reverse Up-B (best rest punish in the game; ensured kill on some stages at 0%), have watched M2K and Sethlon play in him in Melee to learn more about the character, and I have used him to the point where I've beaten a Shiek with him (not easy if you know anything about Roy MUs). I've played his so extensively that I've come to the point where I know his strengths, weaknesses, and acknowledged that he is not the best character in the game; you must come to terms with his weaknesses in order to start becoming decent with him.

M2K's Roy skill comes from the fact that Melee is his life and his skill is 4 stocks above the average Melee player. If he pulled Roy out against any other good player remotely close to his skill level, M2K would get bodied because Roy isn't good enough to stand up to modern-day professional players (Lucky, SFAT, Hax, PP, etc.)

In addition, I would look back the post you just made and refuting our points, frame data, and human reaction time (based off of both frame data and in-game experience) and note that your counterargument is calling us "brainwashed" and "ignorant". I would also like you to read EddyBearr's post (two above yours) again for my response to your Yoshi comment and consider that the tier list you are likely referring to is inaccurate and a couple years out of date. The meta has advanced beyond the point of that tier list and it's bottom tier is starting to become increasingly inaccurate.

Here's the main problem, and you're still not seeing it (the bias). Back then and still the current tier list, Yoshi is right there with Roy very low on the tier list. And you would agree since the current meta suggested it at that time. Now in the future you're saying that it's impossible for the meta to change or for a really good Roy player to emerge that would bump up Roy in the tier list or place high in nationals?

Back then you'd say the same about Yoshi, and again my point is that it's all hindsight to you. You cannot say that it's impossible for Roy to ever advance to the next level like Yoshi will no doubt. They are currently right there by each other in the low tier, you can't predict the future. And Roy actually has the tools to take on high tiers, it's been proven on a smaller scale. A Roy may never win a national, but I'm just saying the possibility is always there it can't be ruled out that maybe there just hasn't been a good enough player yet. The main point I was trying to relay was that he's not garbage like everyone seems to exaggerate.

 

[Massive]

I could respond to all your points but it seems it might be like talking a religious person out of their religion.

This is some pot-calling-the-kettle-black stuff right here. I am happy to change my opinion if you prove me wrong, but you have provided no more conjecture than I have, and my conjecture is backed up by several years of smash experience and the community at large.

By all means, please become the best Roy player and change all of our minds, I would welcome it just like I welcomed AmSa's ballin' yoshi.

Good players who are willing sacrifice their chances to win completely to elevate a low tier character are few and far between. So it's not impossible for a roy to shake us up, it's just incredibly unlikely.

 

[EddyBearr]

I get the feeling none of you have even played as Roy on a tournament level. So I guess that makes this all pointless since I'm talking to people that don't actually know what a Roy plays like in a competitive atmosphere.

Sethlon is a great guy (so glad he tried to stick with Roy in Melee), but he messes up way too many edge guards, has trouble finishing stocks and tech chasing in Melee to be considered an Amsa for Roy or an Axe for Roy. Some people have it some don't. Like if a Mew2King or PPMD mained Roy I think you'd see him quite often placing high in brackets (they have the fundamentals, skill, and reaction time). In PM Roy is a much easier character and perhaps Sethlon just gels with that version better than he ever could in Melee. His Top Tier characters he plays in Melee aren't placing high so I think that sort of explains my point further.

Again Roy is not the best, but do I have to remind you that Yoshi is only 2 spots above Roy on the tier list and you all are trying to backpedal and rationalize retroactively that he's much better and has more options. You didn't really know anything until AmSa came along. So basically it's just brainwashed ignorance, no? Following the popular opinion without actually having experience, just reading frame and character data.

Do you have any arguments to put forth, or are you going to just baselessly accuse us of being inexperienced?

Again, the Yoshi comparison does NOT work. Yoshi was well-known to be good but assumed to be too hard (semi-source) especially with V3ctorman's 2nd combo video coming out in January 2013, almost a year before aMSa with footage mostly from 2012. The only reason Yoshi was so low on the 2013 tier list was because people thought he was too technically demanding, not because people thought he was bad. Beyond that, many high level players (particularly Leffen and Armada) considered Yoshi mid and/or high tier before aMSa ever happened ("with prominent Yoshi players and some higher level sorts (including, for example, Armada) who will state quite baldly that Yoshi is mid tier"). You do not see this with Roy. Yoshi had something Roy doesn't: potential with increased tech skill; Yoshi was long known to be extremely technical but Roy just is not a technically demanding character. And again, you can NOT increase reaction time to make Roy's counter good without creating some cyborg or something. The best reaction time you're going to get is gonna be like 10-12 frames, which still won't protect Roy from even Falcon's raw knee as his counter would only become active by frame 21-23. Roy's game can be improved, particularly in tech-chasing, but tech-chasing only builds damage, which Roy never really had trouble doing. Roy's issue is taking stocks.

 

[kingPiano]

Do you have any arguments to put forth, or are you going to just baselessly accuse us of being inexperienced?

Again, the Yoshi comparison does NOT work. Yoshi was well-known to be good but assumed to be too hard (semi-source) especially with V3ctorman's 2nd combo video coming out in January 2013, over a year before aMSa with footage mostly from 2012. The only reason Yoshi was so low on the 2013 tier list was because people thought he was too technically demanding, not because people thought he was bad. Beyond that, many high level players (particularly Leffen and Armada) considered Yoshi mid and/or high tier before aMSa ever happened ("with prominent Yoshi players and some higher level sorts (including, for example, Armada) who will state quite baldly that Yoshi is mid tier"). You do not see this with Roy. Yoshi had something Roy doesn't: potential with increased tech skill; Yoshi was long known to be extremely technical but Roy just is not a technically demanding character. And again, you can NOT increase reaction time to make Roy's counter good without creating some cyborg or something. The best reaction time you're going to get is gonna be like 10-12 frames, which still won't protect Roy from even Falcon's raw knee as his counter would only become active by frame 21-23.

So I get the impression then that you've never seen a high level melee match or played Melee competitively yourself?

Do you know what a hard read is?

According to you then Puff's rest is also useless (like half are reads, others are combos guaranteed with DI chase). I guess so are hard read F smashes or D smashes that are preemptive and not reactive. Everything is not reactive, the top players make reads and guesses based on the other player habits and the characters toolset. You would have to know this already, but you are cherry picking silly points to argue your side for no reason. Same goes for Marth's counter, 95% are reads not reactions. 3 frames difference....that's 1/20th of a second and well under the "15 frame reaction time" 3 FRAMES is indistinguishable pretty much.. So take your own advice.

The tier list is not accurate past the top 10.

Yea I like how you changed that now. Guess who's below the top 10? Roy.
Once again.....2 spots down from Yoshi (who is about to get a boost)

My whole point is that you can't 100% say that Roy won't in the future or that a more skilled player will come along and do well with him.

It's opinions just like I had my opinion about Yoshi being too low a long time ago. We have to agree to disagree I guess cause this is like a Mormon and a Christian fighting over which is right. We all can agree it's not going anywhere, right?

 

[EddyBearr]

So I get the impression then that you've never seen a high level melee match or played Melee competitively yourself?

Do you know what a hard read is?

According to you then Puff's rest is also useless (like half are reads, others are combos guaranteed with DI chase). I guess so are hard read F smashes or D smashes that are preemptive and not reactive. Everything is not reactive, the top players make reads and guesses based on the other player habits and the characters toolset. You would have to know this already, but you are cherry picking silly points to argue your side for no reason. Same goes for Marth's counter, 95% are reads not reactions. 3 frames difference....that's 1/20th of a second and well under the "15 frame reaction time" 3 FRAMES is indistinguishable pretty much.. So take your own advice.

If Roy misses a hard read, he is almost guaranteed to lose the stock due to his atrocious defense and recovery. If Yoshi misses the hard read (which, btw, Yoshi doesn't have to rely on to take stocks. He has guaranteed stuff), he does not lose a stock unless he's at a very high percent. Puff's rests are definitely not half reads. Lol. Good puffs only rest on baits, pre-set-up reactions (which are reads but the rest is confirmed, not thrown out if the opponent does something else), or guaranteed combos.

Correct, Marth can't really counter on reaction (only the best reaction time on only some slower moves). This is why good marths outside of KDJ and Ken almost never use counter outside of edgeguarding. Edgeguarding counters are an entirely different story.

 

[Bismo Funyuns]

Get a mod to close this complete uninformed bull**** thread.

 

[Spak]

Now in the future you're saying that it's impossible for the meta to change or for a really good Roy player to emerge that would bump up Roy in the tier list or place high in nationals?

I'm not saying that it's impossible for the meta to change or a really good Roy player to emerge, but I am saying that all of the high-level Roys have either quit or not met success because of the chararcter limitations you keep on trying to ignore.

 

[kingPiano]

This is some pot-calling-the-kettle-black stuff right here. I am happy to change my opinion if you prove me wrong, but you have provided no more conjecture than I have, and my conjecture is backed up by several years of smash experience and the community at large.

By all means, please become the best Roy player and change all of our minds, I would welcome it just like I welcomed AmSa's ballin' yoshi.

Good players who are willing sacrifice their chances to win completely to elevate a low tier character are few and far between. So it's not impossible for a roy to shake us up, it's just incredibly unlikely.

If Roy misses a hard read, he is almost guaranteed to lose the stock due to his atrocious defense and recovery. If Yoshi misses the hard read (which, btw, Yoshi doesn't have to rely on to take stocks. He has guaranteed stuff), he does not lose a stock unless he's at a very high percent. Puff's rests are definitely not half reads. Lol. Good puffs only rest on baits, pre-set-up reactions, or guaranteed combos.

Correct, Marth can't really counter on reaction (only the best reaction time on only some slower moves). This is why good marths outside of KDJ and Ken almost never use counter outside of edgeguarding. Edgeguarding counters are an entirely different story.

Ken not use counter? Lol you serious? KDJ a good Marth? (don't get me wrong he was steller back in his meta game days) but he got 4 stocked by Gravy. M2K uses counters all the time and against Mango too.

If none of Puff's rests are reads then I guess all the ones HBox and Mango would miss were glitches, huh? There were errors in the game not preemptive rests that were hard reads....did I mention brainwashed and biased?

 

[kingPiano]

I'm not saying that it's impossible for the meta to change or a really good Roy player to emerge, but I am saying that all of the high-level Roys have either quit or not met success because of the chararcter limitations you keep on trying to ignore.

Not ignoring, I acknowledge that Roy belongs below Link and YL and he's low tier right now.

But I don't think he's garbage as most of you are spouting off about. He's about where he belongs in the light of current low skilled players that main him and his tech/meta. I don't realistically think he can consistently beat top tiers but I do believe a player can know him well enough to make him transcend tiers for a tournament or sets. Much like AmSa with Yoshi, i doubt there will be many; even with the surge of new mains that are sure to come, that can get to AmSa's level.

 

[V3ctorMan]

I have faith in Roy (for certain MU's) but ... it's pretty rough.

However, nobody will believe until they see it.. (which isn't wrong either) I mean nobody believed me when I hyped up Axe's Pikachu years ago, and look where he is now... Same even with my journey and Yoshi, now aMSa came around, and people change quickly.. If Taj returns and plays Mewtwo again, same thing might happen.. It's the way it is man. =/

(also trust me it's way easier to be forgotten about, then always remembered) sooo much less expectation, just do what makes you happy.

Hopefully the thread gets a bit more positive. Happy thoughts everyone.

 

[kingPiano]

I have faith in Roy (for certain MU's) but ... it's pretty rough.

However, nobody will believe until they see it.. (which isn't wrong either) I mean nobody believed me when I hyped up Axe's Pikachu years ago, and look where he is now... Same even with my journey and Yoshi, now aMSa came around, and people change quickly.. If Taj returns and plays Mewtwo again, same thing might happen.. It's the way it is man. =/

(also trust me it's way easier to be forgotten about, then always remembered) sooo much less expectation, just do what makes you happy.

Hopefully the thread gets a bit more positive. Happy thoughts everyone.

Thank you man I totally agree, I'm sorry I feel I did get carried away. Just hate to see characters lambasted for no reason.

By the way I did not mention you but I should for what you've done for Yoshi. You're Yoshi is remarkable and I have no doubt that it may have in some part inspired other Yoshi mains like AmSa.

 

[EddyBearr]

Ken not use counter? Lol you serious? KDJ a good Marth? (don't get me wrong he was steller back in his meta game days) but he got 4 stocked by Gravy. M2K uses counters all the time and against Mango too.

Did you read my comment? I said that Ken and KDJ do use counters. And yes, KDJ is still a good Marth. He has generally better results than Ken does this last year, and was ranked higher by MIOM as a result. (EX: KDJ 17th at CEO2014 & 13th at SKTAR3, Ken 33rd at CEO2014 & 25th at SKTAR3; ranked 48th and 58th by MIOM respectively). The only M2K set I can recall where he countered a lot was TBH4 grand finals, a set which M2K said in an interview afterwards was more about him having fun.

If none of Puff's rests are reads then I guess all the ones HBox and Mango would miss were glitches, huh? There were errors in the game not preemptive rests that were hard reads....did I mention brainwashed and biased?

Smash DI, great combo DI, and human error result in missed rests, not missed reads. What precedes a missed rest? It's almost always a set-up like up-air, nair, or u-throw.

 

[V3ctorMan]

aMSa has told people "many times" I was a very large part of his inspiration. Most aMSa fans, know this, but it's not the end of the world. I've been a "ghost" for a very long time, with my limitations, but it's about to change soon, so we'll see if I have anything left in the tank.

As for Roy, if the community keeps growing the way it is, maybe one will show up. I'm not saying it will/won't, but in smash you really never know.

 

[kingPiano]

Did you read my comment? I said that Ken and KDJ do use counters. And yes, KDJ is still a good Marth. He has generally better results than Ken does this last year, and was ranked higher by MIOM as a result. (EX: KDJ 17th at CEO2014 & 13th at SKTAR3, Ken 33rd at CEO2014 & 25th at SKTAR3; ranked 48th and 58th by MIOM respectively). The only M2K set I can recall where he countered a lot was TBH4 grand finals, a set which M2K said in an interview afterwards was more about him having fun.


Smash DI, great combo DI, and human error result in missed rests, not missed reads. What precedes a missed rest? It's almost always a set-up like up-air, nair, or u-throw.

Let's go back to the main point that hard reads exists and they are used often in high level play. You are completely ignoring that fact to prove a baseless point that counter is useless because it requires a hard read. You can keep arguing and talking in circles but that whole paragraph was basically pointless, was it not?

Look I won't carry on past this because we've gotten partially way off topic, and it seems there will be no resolution since we are arguing over opinions not facts at this point. Roy is not garbage, he's not good but he's not garbage or useless. That seems like a silly statement to me.

 

[EddyBearr]

aMSa has told people "many times" I was a very large part of his inspiration. Most aMSa fans, know this, but it's not the end of the world. I've been a "ghost" for a very long time, with my limitations, but it's about to change soon, so we'll see if I have anything left in the tank.

When I think of Yoshi, you still come to mind for me a little bit before aMSa. I remember showing my gf (you played her Marth and maybe Ness in StT pools) your 2nd combo video when it first came out to show her that her favorite character was still pretty good (although, required a lot of dedication). You might not be as much a ghost as you think.

I actually also think of you when I think of Roy.. but that's mostly because of a recorded friendly vs Axe's Young Link. Lol. Still a pretty Roy.

 

[BasicallyRyan]

I vote Link, link has much more combo potential.

 

[NastyNard]

Arguing with this guy is like trying to slam your head through a brick wall. Kudos to you guys for having infinitely more patience than I do.

On topic though, I definitely think link's the better character, but I'll admit I'm biased since he's my favorite mid/low tier to use in friendlies.

 

[RedRengadeYo]

IMO I think Roy is better because he's just a slower clone of a good character, which makes him ok but I am being a bit biased since Roy was the second smash bros. character I got good at, right next to C.Falcon, but that doesn't mean that Roy is bad.
#unpopularopinion